This page is an archive and its contents should be preserved in their current form;
any comments regarding this page should be directed to
Wikipedia talk:In the news. Thanks.
Hundreds of Russian
mobilized soldiers are claimed by Ukraine to be killed and injured as a result of an
Ukrainian missile attack on a
vocational school building serving as military barracks. Russian authorities acknowledge several casualties, but suggest lower figures.
(Reuters)(BBC News)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Support blurb but not yet on quality that's so obvious. I've added a couple of CN tags and changed the proposed photo. I have always considered weird the ones with the background blurred. Aesthetically they are horrible.
_-_Alsor (
talk)
09:59, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support Blurb Notability obvious. First pope to voluntary resign in almost a millenia. Religious leader of more than a billion Catholic for a considerable period. Regards,
Jeromi Mikhael10:10, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Vatican City is an Absolute Monarchy with the Pope as Head of State, making him King. This isn’t a fact that’s up for debate.
Spman (
talk)
14:42, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Hogwash. It's an elective monarchy (you don't need capitals for the names of types of government, by the way), and not every monarch is a king or queen. The Grand Duke of Luxembourg isn't, the princes of Monaco and Liechtenstein aren't, the Emperor of Japan isn't, and nor is the Pope.
GenevieveDEon (
talk)
14:45, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support blurb once fixed It's the (former) Pope. What else needs saying? However, the article as it stands could use some restructuring, and there are enough missing citations that it would be inappropriate to post.
Juxlos (
talk)
10:20, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment There will be a consensus to post a blurb but at least the honors and awards section needs to be fixed first. Otherwise, the article is excellent. --Tone10:33, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Still not ready Honros & Awards is almost completely unreferenced, and besjdes tthat, there are nearly 10 CN tags left. We don't need to debate whether or not he's deserving of a blurb- of course he is- but nobody who has just said "Support blurb" seems to have actually looked at the article. We need people who care enough about the subject to find references. --
Kicking222 (
talk)
11:50, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
He's not standard, he's the pope. When people have notable funerals, that's saying something (everyone has an age). And his death has begun, it's his life that's over. Anyway, just a suggestion. I'm also OK with the boring standard line.
InedibleHulk (
talk)
13:37, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
'His death has begun' is not idiomatic for describing a person who is fully dead, in any dialect of English I know. The death-and-funeral article is linked in the original blurb.
GenevieveDEon (
talk)
13:45, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
As an event, yeah, he's no longer dying. He is now in the state of death, among the dead, however you say. In any words, the death and funeral seem more timely still, should (in my opinion) be the bolded news.
InedibleHulk (
talk)
13:51, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The blurb The death and funeral of Pope Benedict XVI begins in Rome is just not gramatically correct. He died, so death can't begin. The funeral did not begin too, only plans and preparations for funeral. Choosing this as target article is one thing, phrasing is another. It is in blurb anyway.
Kirill C1 (
talk)
14:11, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
It's not set in stone, it was the best I could do without piping. You want to pipe something, go for it. But just as a general bit of advice, I'm telling you, death begins at death as surely as life begins at birth/conception/what-have-you. It's one of those weird things about English, like how two moose are moose.
InedibleHulk (
talk)
14:19, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
No, it's grammatically wrong. He died: this is not ongoing; like "his death" it is a singular event. "He is dead" is an ongoing state. There is nothing weird about the English on this!
SchroCat (
talk)
14:28, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Furthermore, the death/funeral is not taking place "in Rome" as the alt blurb states. It is taking place in Vatican City, which is another entity entirely. Throw this whole blurb out.
174.113.161.1 (
talk)
14:41, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
With the honors trimmed down and cited, the only cn tags appear in the election to papacy section, and they appear to be trivial. Posting now. --Tone15:04, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I would definitely support an image. (If either of the other death-blurb nominations below succeeds, we could perhaps rotate the images, but we've had Pelé for a bit now.)
GenevieveDEon (
talk)
15:57, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Because he was massively influential in his field. Even as a cardinal he was very prominent and influential, and then he was elected to the highest post in the billion-plus member organisation he belonged to, and then he made history by being the first Pope in centuries to resign.
GenevieveDEon (
talk)
15:57, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I dont quite get how he was "massively influential" in any field tbh, and his resignation probably was ITN when it happened. I dont get how old retiree dies is front page blurb worthy. Much less with a photo. nableezy -
17:23, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I tried to make it more about his continuing decomposition and journey through Purgatory, but failed miserably. In the end, the people get what the people want. This time, like other times, they want old age!
InedibleHulk (
talk)
16:06, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The death of any pope would warrant a blurb, regardless of perceived influence. Not all states and churches (nor their leaders) are equal. Suggesting this is 'old man dies' is inaccurate.
Dr Fell (
talk)
22:43, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Really, inaccurate? He hasnt been pope in almost a decade, he is a former head of state (being generous with the term state). We dont blurb former heads of state when they die of old age. A current head of state, like the current pope, sure. This is firmly old man dies of being old. nableezy -
00:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Comment Wasn't this a few days ago? At least, I read it a few days ago and I don't think I have psychic news apps. (They were hopefully better sources than VOA China, too)
Kingsif (
talk)
09:53, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Kingsif: As far as I know, the original vote planned to dissolve the presidency on 4 January 2023 (while maintaining structures to keep foreign assets), but another vote took place yesterday to confirm the decision. Based on the sources I'm reading, the decision has been made effective just after the vote. Here's a Reuters source, too:
Venezuela opposition removes interim President Guaido. --
NoonIcarus (
talk)
11:03, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Yeah, I mean, I didn't think it would warrant ITN when I first saw it, so it's rather immaterial really that it got re-confirmed.
Kingsif (
talk)
04:18, 2 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose, as per article, his presidency was not universally recognized and some countries (the EU members) do not recognize him anymore after he lost his position as head of parliament. So, this is really an internal political story. --Tone10:38, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose - The blurb is misleading, making it sound as though a sitting president has been deposed by his opponents. In fact, the opposition faction has dissolved its own shadow presidency as part of moves to normalise the nation's political situation. As such, I don't think this merits posting.
GenevieveDEon (
talk)
13:35, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose for now - The blurb as currently phrased is misleading or incorrect, and I think trying to construct a more accurate blurb would be more likely to confuse our readers than interest them. --🌈WaltCip-(
talk)16:26, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment Any expert in Latin American politics around here? The article states that the Venezuelan presidential crisis ends on 5 January of this year with the end of Guaidó's pseudo-presidency. But I, without being an expert, have my doubts that this movement of the opposition will lead to an end of the crisis and not to a simple replacement of leadership that maintains the dispute and the tension. If this will put an end to this stage of the Venezuelan crisis, I support this nomination.
_-_Alsor (
talk)
23:10, 2 January 2023 (UTC)reply
The opposition government didn’t just vote to remove Guaido, but to dissolve itself, ending the presidential crisis at least. There won’t be a successor, and Maduro is effectively the sole government of the country now.
The Kip (
talk)
00:02, 3 January 2023 (UTC)reply
The elections for the leader of the house are at the start of each year. The house have voted to agree - twice - that when it comes, they will change all roles (not allowing the incumbents to run) and, thus, dissolve the acting government. That will end the dispute of the presidency. It will not end tensions, of course, but there is an end date to the crisis of different groups recognising different people (which the opposition has realised is unsustainable and possibly doing more harm to the people than the alternative is, bad as the alternative is and bad as relinquishing the challenge is.)
Kingsif (
talk)
03:37, 3 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Got it! Thanks! The end of a presidential crisis that mobilized the international community is ITN-worthy, and by far. The article is sufficiently quoted and up to date. Support altblurb.
_-_Alsor (
talk)
11:17, 3 January 2023 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A court in
Myanmar delivers its final verdict on ousted leader
Aung San Suu Kyi's cases,
sentencing her to seven years in prison, with an overall sentence of 33 years' imprisonment.
(CNN)
The National Opposition Assembly votes to terminate
Juan Guaidó's interim government and opposition leadership, with Guaidó's disputed acting presidency expected to end on January 4.
(The New York Times)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Support Well-cited and holistic. I'm unsure whether Hindi and Chinese (language) should be linked or not, but that's beyond our purpose for ITN.
Curbon7 (
talk)
06:28, 4 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Support RD: Her legacy in broadcasting, interviewing every US president from Nixon to Biden (Albeit Trump and Biden were before being president) makes this one a given. Weak oppose blurb Probably a hard case to make. Might make more sense with some further discussion.
TheCorriynial (
talk)
03:48, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose blurb: I don't think quite top-tier influential/transformative in her field, and, to me, "legendary" and "breaking barriers" is news-speak that doesn't tell us too much. I don't think she has much of a worldwide legacy - she was well-known broadcaster in North America but she is utterly known outside of it, and I do think that counts for something if we are talking about a journalist's impact.
Humbledaisy (
talk)
04:15, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
You will note that Pelé had worldwide news media attention earlier for just being sick, and therefore meets the rule that for a blurb there needs to be suffiecient sourcing for an article on their death and/or funeral. Pelé's article also has just had 2.5 million pageviews in two days. He is orders of magnitude more important than most blurb nominees. Stop nominating doomed RD blurbs. Abductive (
reasoning)13:27, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support RD, oppose blurb: I don't think she was notable and impactful to such a degree to warrant being on top of the In the News Category. She still however was a trailblazer in many ways so a RD listing is certainly required.
Knightoftheswords281 (
talk)
04:27, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
RD - close to blurb-worthy but just shy imo. Though I do think some of the above comment understates her significance a bit. And we dont have a
Death of Pele article either, though that was an obvious blurb. nableezy -
04:25, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose RD on quality at the moment; oppose blurb or we'll need to be blurbing every veteran national newsreader from around the world. Frankly, even in 20th century American broadcast journalism as an industry, I'm not sure she's even the most prominent woman - Nancy Dickerson, no? She had a great career and impact within a limited sphere, but if Pelé is obvious and Vivienne Westwood is debatable, Barbara Walters is a firm no, I'm afraid.
Kingsif (
talk)
04:30, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support RD, soft support blurb: Too frequently heretofore unknown rules are used to lobby for or against a blurb. Was Walters top-tier influential and transformative in her field? Yes. Should a death be blurbed only if the death itself and/or funeral be worthy of an article? No. Would blurbing the death of this journalist require blurbing every the deaths of every veteran newsreader from around the world? No. She was the dean of television journalism (but without the heft of a Cronkite) and a media touchstone.
Dr Fell (
talk)
04:46, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Assuming your argument is the one you state above ("Blurbs should only be considered when there could be a separate article on the death and/or funeral of the person"), you far overstate your hand, considering I do also recall
Jean-Luc Godard passing pretty easily a few months ago.
Curbon7 (
talk)
05:57, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I know that not all users agree with the rule. Still, it would be nice if users would stop nominating ~80% of RD blurbs beginning in the new year. Make it a resolution to stop stinking up this page in your efforts to stink up the main page. Abductive (
reasoning)06:23, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support RD, Oppose blurb Same reason as Westwood. IMO, doesn’t meet global/public renown standard. We can’t just blurb people because they’re the “among the best in their field;” hypothetically, would we really blurb a little-known ornithologist or a museum curator upon their passing, just because they were recognized as such?
The Kip (
talk)
05:51, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose Blurb Vague descriptors that this person was "legendary" and that she "broke barriers", was "top tier influential" or "transformative", are just vague descriptors. The same low-effort vague labels could be equally applied to many TV presenters.
Chrisclear (
talk)
06:15, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose blurb - Walters is close in my view, but as I comprehend the standards currently in place on this page, and compare the unanimous support for Pele, I oppose a blurb for the main page in this case. I must add that I hope 2023 will bring more kindness in our rhetoric here. Cheers!
Jusdafax (
talk)
06:37, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Please tell me this one is trolling, at least. Trying to claim Walters has the same international renown and impact as Pelé is going to hurt your argument more than anything.
Kingsif (
talk)
08:06, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
If it were about international renown and impact, sure, that's stupid. But there's nothing weird about Barbara Walters being the bigger name in househoulds where she was on TV for most days of the week for years and Pelé only showed up now and then in archival footage. It's all relative, fans.
InedibleHulk (
talk)
12:44, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The !vote did try to claim comparable renown, though. Which it shouldn't, you're right, and what I was trying to point out: a support based on comparing the global icon status of Pelé and Walters basically legitimises using such a comparison as an argument, when each item should be considered on its own merits. And surely the overwhelming majority of people comparing the two in such a way will deduce that Walters doesn't measure up. Like, she belonged to a much more niche field, and may have led in an even more niche part of it. They shouldn't be compared, really, because of the difference in scope…
Kingsif (
talk)
02:33, 1 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose Calm everyone down. Just because Pelé has been included does not mean that the rest of the very famous/important people have to be included. The international impact of Walters is very low unlike him (and that also matters) and not because she is a transformer in the American television she has to be included.
_-_Alsor (
talk)
08:58, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support RD, oppose blurb Very notable journalist but unfortunately her demise comes between that of Pele and Pope Benedict XVI, who are (let’s face it) more notable than her.
Vida0007 (
talk)
10:21, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Strong oppose blurb Major politicians, generals or religious figures are notable because of the large numbers of victims/people under their control/influence, researchers/scientists and to a degree artists can be evaluated based on new inventions/discoveries/concepts/techniques that they developed, sportspeople can be evaluated on new innovations or vast statistical superiority. There is no evidence of any technical/stylistic advance that the subject contributed to, and if so, it should be explained in their article. Meeting a lot of famous people is not a sign of superiority or improved skill
Bumbubookworm (
talk)
10:53, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose blurb, doesn't meet the globally transformative bar. Oppose RD on quality currently, there are large unsourced parts of the article in the sections "Interviews", "The View" and "Awards and Nominations".
Black Kite (talk)12:51, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support RD, oppose blurb She is known throughout North America (well, more United States) as a household name but I don't think she had enough of a worldwide impact that she would need a blurb. An RD would be suitable. --
Harobouri •
🎢 •
🏗️ (he/him)
13:13, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support RD, tentatively support blurb - While I (as a Brit) was not familiar with her work, the BBC's article on her life alone makes it clear that she was both transformative within her area of work and widely respected by a broad range of people. (We do risk having four death blurbs at once, but we live with multiple Nobel Prize blurbs, and so on, so I'm sure we will do fine here too.)
GenevieveDEon (
talk)
13:37, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Television news some 45, 50 years ago, was incredibly important and this woman in television news was absolutely transformative,
[2] but I'll defer on the international issue, although it's hard not to note such changes in the roles of women has transformed broad swaths of world society in the last 50-some years.
Alanscottwalker (
talk)
14:08, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support RD, oppose blurb Blurbed deaths need to be extremely notable, and she just does not have the level of fame to be on RD. Plus, this reeks of US-centrism.
65.246.72.70 (
talk)
18:57, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support RD and blurb - Anecdotal but I'm not American and I was well aware of her and her work, especially from her creating "The View" not to mention her prior newscasting/interview work before that. Amazing career.
SitcomyFan (
talk)
19:29, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support RD and blurb Her interviews have often being cited as sources, including right here on wikipedia, such as in the
Tank Man article for her interview with the General Secretary of the Chinese Communist Party. Interviewed every US president from Nixon onward, and I believe she interviewed Fidel Castro more than any other western journalist, are just two of her many accomplishments that has/will see her referenced/cited in countless biographies of the many historical people she interviewed. In addition to her record as a trailblazer for women in TV journalism. And yes, even as a Canadian, I think America is culturally significant enough internationally that even if she lacks the same kind of fame elsewhere, her important status in a culture behemoth like America is enough. Pele has a blurb, and he was merely someone highly regard in his field; Whereas Barbara Walters was highly regarded AND a groundbreaking figure.
38.18.130.229 (
talk)
22:45, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Obviously Support RD. I am willing to support the blurb due to her being a transformative figure in broadcasting, but I'm not sure if she's popular enough internationally.
MarioJump83 (
talk)
23:59, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Update This is mostly ready, but for that damned list of Emmy nominations. None of the sources I've found are usable, IMDb and other sites on the blacklist. –
Muboshgu (
talk)
03:14, 1 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Posted to RD. Leaving open to allow further discussion on the blurb, though at this stage it does look unlikely to gain consensus.
Anarchyte (
talk)
05:58, 1 January 2023 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: The governor arrested is recognized to be the opposition leader of Bolivia by
WP:RS. The arrest has caused a political crisis and protests. Covered by every news outlet out there, and due to the nature of the arrest, nomination worthy (being the opposition leader).
BastianMAT (
talk)
02:12, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose both on article quality and newsworthyness. I'll remind other users that
Jeanine Áñez's arrest was also declined, and she was a former president. While this is definitely huge news in Bolivia and probably one of the biggest events of the year there, I doubt it's hugely important outside the region.
Krisgabwoosh (
talk)
08:09, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Note Given Camacho's popularity in Santa Cruz, this event does have the possibility of spiraling into its own fullscale national crisis. If that ends up happening, whatever new article springs forth from the event would probably be newsworthy.
Krisgabwoosh (
talk)
08:13, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose - This does seem to be a purely internal matter. If the events surrounding the arrest develop further, we could look at it again, but it seems premature to do so at present.
GenevieveDEon (
talk)
13:40, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Comment. Article continues to have a few citation needed tags, an orange-box and some work to be done to get it to main-page levels. Might require work by some knowledgeable editors.
Ktin (
talk)
07:02, 4 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Oppose: The article title violates NPOV, considering the significant amount of time he spent in the public eye apart from working as a professional wrestling announcer. The structure of the article violates NPOV, as the "Career" section gives excessive weight to trivia about his time as a professional wrestling announcer, while the following "Personal life and death" section relegates his life as a whole to a mere footnote in comparison. We have the temerity to call that a biography. To make matters worse, it smacks of forum-shopping to nominate this at ITNC, where editors are solely concerned about superficial "article quality" concerns such as how pretty the formatting looks or whether it happens to have citations of some sort in certain places, and aren't likely to give it the degree of scrutiny I gave it.
RadioKAOS /
Talk to me, Billy /
Transmissions 19:52, 1 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Forum shopping for a candidate at ITN? I'm really confused. I can't say I care too much about the article title, but most of the citations talk about his lengthy time as a commentator. There isn't much talking about TV salesmen out there. Lee Vilenski(
talk •
contribs)20:58, 1 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Canadian folk singer active in the U.S. and Canada, citations still needed for a handful of sentences and discography.
Yeeno (
talk)
19:22, 30 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Support in principle One CN tag that needs fixing by the looks of things. Part of me wants to blurb it because of her impact on fashion but that might just be a British bias coming from me.
XxLuckyCxX (
talk)
21:32, 29 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support This is ready, and I already fixed the lone cn tag. Wish that this could be blurbed but Pelé deserves it more (this situation is somewhat comparable to Michael Jackson and Farrah Fawcett's deaths in June 2009).
Vida0007 (
talk)
21:40, 29 December 2022 (UTC)reply
We don't necessarily have to have an image of Westwood if this was on ITN (although I do think there have been instances where there have been two images so completely fine)
XxLuckyCxX (
talk)
21:48, 29 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, whilst she may not be as influential Pele, I don't think we should be ruling out a blurb because "this isn't someone who was the GOAT". Westwood did wonders in her field & the world of fashion for bringing punk and new wave styles into the mainstream, so should definitely be considered at least.
XxLuckyCxX (
talk)
23:30, 29 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support blurb: Blurbs are not merited on comparative recent deaths (where we should not post one because we have another already) nor on intagible GOAT labels. Dame Vivienne Westwood is definitely on the top of her field here, having designed punk fashion as we know it.
Gotitbro (
talk)
02:33, 30 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose blurb It is posted on RD now but I decided to take back my support on blurb. In
2022 article, there's an importance tag repeatedly putted on, which is a cause of concern. MarioJump83 (
talk)
20:23, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support both I would have to say that Westwood is quite influential in her field, I would lean more towards RD but a blurb would not be unwarranted.
Ornithoptera (
talk)
04:15, 30 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support both. In my opinion, she is influential and well-known enough (to even individual outside of the fashion industry) to warrant a blurb. The decision on who gets a blurb or not though is not particularly well-defined and I wish there was more done to clear things up regarding that.
Aoba47 (
talk)
04:32, 30 December 2022 (UTC)reply
'Posted to RD. The quality seems OK per consensus above, but there's no consensus for a blurb right now. It seems unlikely one will develop, but you never know I suppose. —
Amakuru (
talk)
14:47, 30 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support blurb - It's not necessary for someone to be notable outside of their realm of expertise to be blurbable. They just need to be a sui generis transformative figure in their field. It's unfortunate that the larger-than-life legendary Pele would happen to pass around this time, as this would create an
observer bias that only someone who is as famous as Pele deserves to be blurb, and that's not so at all.--🌈WaltCip-(
talk)15:31, 30 December 2022 (UTC)reply
It needs to be more than "They just need to be a sui generis transformative figure in their field" because there are tons of "fields" which are ignored. Which are important enough to qualify? It's entirely subjective. -
Indefensible (
talk)
18:38, 30 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose blurb Usually blurbed deaths have to be at a certain level of global/public renown so as to make them extremely commonly known; I don’t feel that Westwood reaches that standard.
The Kip (
talk)
16:07, 30 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support blurb In the field of fashion designers, Westwood strikes me as both widely recognised and highly transformative. If Westwood doesn't fill the criteria for a blurb, then truly who in her field would?
Humbledaisy (
talk)
19:35, 30 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Do they though? My feeling was they need to be transformative, top-level figures in their field - Westwood was. I can think of several figures blurbed in recent times who are nothing internationally.
Humbledaisy (
talk)
03:04, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Some of those cases were errors of products of an era where our standards for death blurbs were lower. It's fair to say Westwood was transformative in her field, but not every field's advancements are of the same level of note.
DarkSide830 (
talk)
04:55, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support RD, oppose blurb I can understand posting it for a recent death, but I don't think she is world famous enough like Pelé, so a blurb shouldn't be posted about her in my opinon.
TomMasterReal (
talk)
02:29, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
support blurb At the dawn of punk, the dawn of new wave music and fashion, made a Dame; of course she's worth a blurb. Her inspiration goes from 60s to today. A worthy event. Of
doktorbwordsdeeds21:16, 30 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support blurb: Transformative and influential, with a lasting impact. And free from the RD/death blurb bias toward athletes and trivial 'Google Doodle' type figures.
Dr Fell (
talk)
04:52, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
If we blurbed everyone who was famous and influential there would be a recent death blurb up virtually all the time. There has to be a higher standard than that.
Pawnkingthree (
talk)
12:36, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I think she goes beyond that. She was one of the most influential designers of the late 20th century, with a unique relationship between fashion and popular culture in the punk movement.
GenevieveDEon (
talk)
13:41, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment - At this point, even though it looks like we have a weak consensus for a blurb, I'm not sure an admin would be willing to run three death blurbs on the Main Page at the same time. It might look a bit confusing when juxtaposed with the Recent Deaths line.--🌈WaltCip-(
talk)16:23, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I know the “votes ≠ consensus” guideline, but by my count we have 32 total votes and the yes/no to a blurb is an even 16/16. I wouldn’t even say there’s a weak consensus; we’re pretty firmly in no consensus.
The Kip (
talk)
19:43, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support blurb Per above. Punk rock is one of many genres that had a strong international reach and her contributions in this field is enough that the punk rock would look different if not for her. Inclusion of Pele and Pope Benedict should not matter.
MarioJump83 (
talk)
23:15, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose blurb. I posted this to RD and left it open for blurb discussion, but will now cast a vote on that and on reflection I don't think she rises to the level of transformative influence that would merit a blurb. There are numerous artists of similar standing and we can't blurb all of them. —
Amakuru (
talk)
23:38, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
So, Nepal, Fiji, and Israel have all swapped in new prime ministers within the past few days, meaning that half of ITN will be lines on these new figures being elected. I propose smushing them into a single line:
Fiji will get pushed off once Bibi gets posted, so its not a big deal in this case, I think. I can see this solution being useful if circumstances were different, though.
Curbon7 (
talk)
21:16, 29 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose As another editor has stated, each item should get its own line. I'm highly sceptical that this proposal would be put forward if it the blurbs in question related to the heads of government in wealthier countries and/or countries with higher populations, such as the US or the UK.
Chrisclear (
talk)
06:47, 30 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I would not dispute that at all, but the fact that these are relatively small countries (Nepal, population 30 million, Israel, population 10 million, Fiji, population 1 million) diminishes the significance of having separate lines for each.
BD2412T16:27, 30 December 2022 (UTC)reply
ITN/R is pretty clear - one country, one blurb. I'd definitely suggest taking up your argument at
WT:ITN if you want to initiate something like this in the future. 🌈WaltCip-(
talk)16:47, 30 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment - Nepal, Fiji, and Israel are about as alike as George Bush, broccoli and a cloud-scudded sunset on the Bosphorus Sea. A merger is not appropriate, certainly not without a change in our guidelines. 🌈WaltCip-(
talk)16:02, 30 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: Article is not receiving continued substantial updates. Most recent substantial update regarding events on 23 December, and this was just a 10-sentence quote from Reuters (possible borderline
WP:OVERQUOTING?), without any description of specific new events. Outside of "As of # December" casualty updates, the only other major update in the past 2 weeks appears to be 2 sentences about New Zealand placing travel bans on several members of Iranian security forces. SpencerT•C19:33, 29 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I did not say that nothing is happening; I stated that the article is not being regularly updated, which is a requirement for items to remain in Ongoing. SpencerT•C20:50, 29 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Weak Support for now per Spencer and the IP editor above. Recent updates do not clearly appear substantial enough to justify continued Ongoing placement. This can change, but I must note to those above simply noting that the protests are still ongoing that such updates are crucial to Ongoing placement.
DarkSide830 (
talk)
23:48, 29 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Weak oppose – The updates from 22 and 23 December makes this feel not quite stale yet. I'm expecting similar updates to the article throughout January still. ~
Maplestrip/Mable (
chat)
09:37, 2 January 2023 (UTC)reply
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article:Pelé (
talk·history·tag) Recent deaths nomination Blurb:Pelé(pictured), the only three time
Men's World Cup champion, dies in Brazil at the age of 82 (
Post) Alternative blurb: Brazilian
footballerPelé, considered one of the greatest footballers of all time, dies in Brazil at 82. Alternative blurb II: Brazilian [soccer player/footballer] Pelé dies aged 82 News source(s):[7] Credits:
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
My only concern is there isn't a dedicated section about his health. If the article is attracting readers because of his passing, it maybe needs to be mentioned more than just the date. But as said, the article is busy, I expect it will come soon.
Kingsif (
talk)
19:13, 29 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support both RD, and blurb if someone writes one. On quality, the article is a GA. On significance, he's considered one of the greatest soccer players of all time. Note my use of "soccer" instead of "football" - I'm an American who has very little interest in any sport, let alone soccer, and he's one of the few palyers I've heard of. If I've heard of him, he should meet the significance bar of being a major figure, transformative in his field. ~ ONUnicorn(
Talk|
Contribs)problem solving19:12, 29 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support blurb Regarding article quality, the article looks fine. Regarding the blurb: ITN has in the past chosen to blurb people who are the "greatest ever" in their field (as that is a fair interpretation of the "major figure" clause). In some cases, there may be multiple people who have a legitimate claim to being the "greatest ever". Pelé is one of those rare soccer players who has a legitimate claim to being "the greatest ever". That term may be thrown around loosely in some fields, but it is not puffery here: FIFA itself called Pelé "the greatest of them all". Pelé's death will be a top headline story for the rest of the week, and blurbing his death will meet ITN's mission to help readers find stories that are in the news that readers will be looking for. Therefore, we should blurb this.
NorthernFalcon (
talk)
19:17, 29 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Post-posting support of the current blurb It's Pelé, no need for the blurb to describe so much. We would have to keep the format that was used when Maradona passed away.
_-_Alsor (
talk)
19:56, 29 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Post-posting blurb support. Clearly entailed as a legend/top of field in the article. This is a no brainer for blurbing.
Masem (
t)
20:37, 29 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
(Closed) All solar system's planets visible in night sky
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article:solar system (
talk·history·tag) Blurb: All solar system's planets will be visible in the night sky on Thursday (
Post) News source(s):BBC News The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
2. Not sure the proposed target is suitable. That article is about the solar system and it'll probably contain a maximum of 1-2 sentences on this event (haven't checked it though), which is not enough to meet
WP:ITNCRIT. For this type of event, a separate article is best, but I don't know if this meets the notability criteria.
3. The event sure is interesting, and I'll be happy to support this nomination, albeit with a better blurb, if the above issues are resolved.
Oppose 1. This is not mentioned in the target article. 2. This is not exactly a rare occurrence. From
The Guardian "The last time all of the planets were visible in the sky simultaneously was in June." According to
Space.com "Such "grand tours" happen roughly every one to two years, on average." ~ ONUnicorn(
Talk|
Contribs)problem solving18:47, 29 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The name of BBC article is "All solar system's planets visible in night sky". The lead says "There will be a chance to see all the planets in the solar system in the night sky on Thursday."
Kirill C1 (
talk)
18:53, 29 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Looks like Prachanda was a PM two times before, but for just 2+ years. It is important to say that Netanyahu was (and is) the PM who sits in the office for many years.
Artem.G (
talk)
08:40, 30 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support in principle We posted the Italian election and Melloni becoming prime minister separately. As I stated above, changes in head of government are ITN/R. I don't see why we should apply the same standard differently.Curbon7 (
talk)
21:43, 30 December 2022 (UTC)reply
We dont post the election result for American president and then separately the inauguration. And what
WP:ITNR actually says is except when that change was already posted as part of a general election. The change was already posted as the result of a general election. nableezy -
22:13, 30 December 2022 (UTC)reply
It was not stated that Bibi would be prime minister in that blurb, as there was a chance he would not be prime minister; note the
Government formation section. Again, this is the same circumstance as Italy and Denmark, both of which were recently double posted.
Curbon7 (
talk)
22:40, 30 December 2022 (UTC)reply
It was stated the coalition that he headed won a majority. That absolutely means he would be PM, as anybody remotely familiar with parliamentary politics would immediately understand. The government formation section of that article is about the negotiations for lower ministerial postings, not PM. If Italy and Denmark were double-posted thats a problem, but not one resolved by repeating the same mistake again. nableezy -
23:44, 30 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Nothing is certain in parliamentary democracies (especially Israel) until the government is sworn in. Governments with apparent majorities have failed to seal the deal many times in the past.
95.86.78.45 (
talk)
18:02, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The
defence ministers of
Russia,
Syria, and
Turkey hold a trilateral meeting in
Moscow. It is the first such meeting, as well as the first meeting between a Syrian and Turkish defence minister, since the war began in 2011.
(AFP via France 24)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Comment: Any additional information about his area of research? The article describes it as "Masonic research" and then lists an overview of number of publications, but I don't get a good sense about what his research entailed. A couple of sentences and this should be adequate. SpencerT•C03:35, 2 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Spencer, I checked, but didn't find much more. I tried to be a bit more specific in the lead. Not my field at all, - I'd be better with the musical part. - I couldn't find more about the Bucharest competition either. It seems to be a precursor of the 1958
Enescu competition, but he and the other won in 1953, and the other has no mention of it, his successes beginning in 1955. Any help? I found a ref for his POD, at least. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk)
10:44, 2 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: In global news around the world every day for a while now. Very tense, global politics at play, underlying historical grievances, ethnic-based divisions in a fragile part of Europe. The article is very good though and updated.
Abcmaxx (
talk)
22:37, 28 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Convinced by Andrew. This is not the most severe conflict of its category at this moment. Myanmar and Ethiopia in particular are better examples of recent escalations of civil conflict.
Thebiguglyalien (
talk)
20:17, 29 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose unless something substantially changes on the ground. The tensions have been simmering for years, there's a risk it will never go off Ongoing if posted there.
Yakikaki (
talk)
14:27, 29 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose As someone who wrote this article, I'm against posting it in ongoing. At the time of posting this nomination, barricades were still up and Vučić did not yet announce their removal. It is in the news, but the crisis, as of now, is de-escalating and only a few have been wounded and arrested during the entire period. --
Vacant0 (
talk)
20:20, 29 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose If Kosovo and Serbia go to war, then that will obviously make it to ongoing, but that looks far from the case. It is a usual tension flare-up, but as stated above, seems to be resolving itself and is not major at the moment.
Curbon7 (
talk)
21:20, 29 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Hello, IP editor. No, individual items of the list do not be sourced separately if the top level source covers the items in the list. However, someone needs to do the check that the
BFI source covers all of the items mentioned in the list below. Tagging
Sunshineisles2. Cheers.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
The death toll from
monsoon floods in the
Philippines has increased to 32, with 24 others still missing. Eighteen of the deaths occurred in
Northern Mindanao.
(AP)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Oppose I don't think that with 13 victims in a flood-prone country like the Philippines is ITN-notorious enough. We can't include every deadly disaster that happens in the world (I'm not saying this for you, but it seems like that's what many editors are after). We need to be stricter.
_-_Alsor (
talk)
18:49, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose on quality. This is becoming a huge event in the said area/region (death toll has risen to 29); however, the target article is still marked as a stub.
Vida0007 (
talk)
20:52, 28 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Three members of the endangered
Irrawaddy dolphin have died within ten days from each other in
Cambodia, prompting an increasing alarming situation.
(AP)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: 120,000 people have been under blockade for 13 days already, while peacekeepers have not opened the road by removing protestors with what many believe to be ulterior motives. Seems unusual and important. Not sure if this is how "ongoing" stories are proposed. --
RaffiKojian (
talk)
17:14, 26 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment This is the first I've heard of this, so not sure how much coverage it's been getting. I also note there is a current debate over the article title that may have some political overtones. -
Ad Orientem (
talk)
22:34, 26 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment: This was recently closed as stale (
Wikipedia:In_the_news/Candidates/December_2022#(Closed)_2022_Artsakh_Blockade), but the article timeline of events is not exactly clear. There also seem to be parallel sections in "Blockade" and "Humanitarian crisis" (not sure how info is allocated to each section since there seems to be a lot of overlap). With more clarity, I think a blurb is a more ideal choice for this kind of item, with a consideration for a possible ongoing item afterward. SpencerT•C03:46, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose - Not much in the article about the blockade itself. More than half the article is just reactions. Plus, Not the sort of continuous media coverage I'd like for an ongoing item. The ⬡ Bestagon[t][c]06:10, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Concerned neutral – I'm still not seeing any non-region-based news publications on this through Google News. I'm also noticing that a lot of the sources used in the article are tweets. Some alarm bells ring for me with this sourcing, for our front page anyway, but I hardly have the knowledge to say more. ~
Maplestrip/Mable (
chat)
10:17, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm sorry but this is an "ongoing news" proposal, and to wait for a title change vote/discussion to end makes no sense. It's an easy way to prevent something from showing up in this section by the time it (hopefully) end, and a bad precedent. The name change proposal itself is flawed because the person proposing it was under the impression Armenians had other routes to enter and exit the region, which there is not. Whether it is called Artsakh or Karabakh is not even the topic of the proposed name change.
RaffiKojian (
talk)
16:09, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
It makes sense first to settle on a title before posting the article with controversial title. It appears there's more to it than just remaining routes. All those countries that do not recognize Artsakh refer to the place of the incident either as Lachin corridor or Nagorno-Karabakh.
Brandmeistertalk20:03, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Sorry but I don't think the news should be suppressed for such secondary discussions, which as I said can easily be proposed by anybody again in the future to purposely keep news off of the front page. I believe there are people who would rather not see this news shared.........
RaffiKojian (
talk)
03:41, 28 December 2022 (UTC)reply
"A country (in this case Azerbaijan) cannot blockade the entity not recognized by that country." - This is nonsense. Recognition is a legal/political position; blockading is a matter of practical fact. And I'm very tired of procedural quibbles being used to oppose the inclusion of important news stories.
GenevieveDEon (
talk)
11:39, 28 December 2022 (UTC)reply
While Azerbaijan does not recognize Artsakh, it does recognize that Armenians are living there. In Aliyev's
own words in 2016, he mentioned "an autonomous republic" of Nagorno-Karabakh. Whether or not Azerbaijan recognizes Artsakh as a political entity is irrelevant to the fact that the community of 120000 people is being blockaded.
Humanatbest (
talk)
13:35, 2 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Support in principle - We still have the problem of relatively few English-language sources for this event. But as I stated before, it's my understanding (gained from informal statements by Anglophone journalists familiar with the region) that this is a serious ongoing situation.
GenevieveDEon (
talk)
11:39, 28 December 2022 (UTC)reply
This part of the world doesn't get as much English language news coverage as some others, it's true, but the UN Security Council has met over this, the head of the UN, UNICEF, the EU, the pope, the Council of Europe, and many of the governments of the world's leading powers have spoken out against this blockade already. It is indeed a serious ongoing situation and while there isn't an avalanche of articles about it, there has been coverage by serious, international news companies (I've linked to a couple). The longer it continues, the more it will get coverage, as it has now been 16 days and shortages of food, medicine and fuel are only going to get more acute :(
RaffiKojian (
talk)
17:16, 28 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose The dispute has been ongoing since the breakup of the Soviet Union and there are numerous border disputes of this sort around the world. This one does not seem sufficiently in the news or major enough to warrant an entry.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
09:31, 29 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support A blockade, that includes the blockade of food and other essential supplies, of over a hundred thousand people, is easily significant enough to be included in ITN.
BilledMammal (
talk)
10:14, 29 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose - The article was recently translated from the Armenian Wikipedia, and no consensus on the stable version has yet been established. The article currently has a number of WP:NPOV issues, one of which is an ongoing controversy concerning the article name. Artsakh is a self-proclaimed unrecognized republic, the territory of which is internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan. No UN country or respectable reliable source acknowledges Artsakh's existence as a republic, instead using the neutral term "Blockade of Nagorno Karabakh" to describe events. Taking the article to the news at this moment is not a good idea; we should at the very least wait until there is consensus on how the article should be titled, because otherwise it will be an advertisement for a low-quality article with a
POVname.
A b r v a g l (
PingMe)17:43, 29 December 2022 (UTC)reply
So fix it - I agree that Nagorno-Karabakh is the
WP:COMMONNAME of the region, so we should just use that and get on with it. The existence of the blockade is newsworthy, ongoing, and independent of what we call the affected area.
GenevieveDEon (
talk)
20:30, 29 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I don't care whether it's called one or the other, I'm fine with either. Perhaps it can be posted with the ITN blurb text saying Nagorno-Karabakh, and linking to whatever the article is called? Whatever it is, I think the discussion can go on forever, especially with some people seemingly not wanting this news to get out. It needs a final decision.
RaffiKojian (
talk)
04:43, 30 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support, this is a clear-cut and widely-reported humanitarian crisis involving over 100 thousand people – the name of the article being in contention shouldn't prejudice the article's candidacy for appearing "In the news". –
Olympianloquere01:56, 31 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose on quality - the blockade section does not have a neutral point of view. I don't have an opinion on whether it should be posted on its merits.
Anarchyte (
talk)
10:46, 1 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose. As pointed by others, the article has issues, in particular with neutrality, and there is an ongoing dispute with regard to the appropriate title.
Grandmaster10:58, 1 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Support -- The existence of the blockade is noteworthy (a humanitarian crisis affecting 120,000 people). The UN security council convened precisely on this and virtually every country that spoke used some variation of the phrase "humanitarian crisis/catastrophe." Additional coverage has come from independent sources such as Aljazeera, Eurasianet, Crisis Group, and Human Rights Watch. The article title is not important to whether this is worthy of being considered news. Besides, significant edits have been made to the article since it was translated to English.
Humanatbest (
talk)
13:43, 2 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose the article has concerns over neutrality, even its title is in dispute. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Qızılbaş (
talk •
contribs)
Fourteen Iranian fishermen are returned to
Iran after eight years of captivity in
Somalia. The men were found in Somalia by police last month and freed from
al-Shabaabjihadists after negotiations between the captors,
tribal chiefs and Somali elders.
(AFP via Al Arabiya)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Uruguayan footballer with unusual surname and unusual life story. Described by
Zinedine Zidane as his best ever teammate, even though his career had already crashed by the time he partnered the Frenchman at Juventus. A life ruined by alcohol and gambling sadly ends on this "merry" date, out of all possible days in the year. I've expanded the page; subject is much more widely covered in Italian and Spanish than English.
90.240.29.158 (
talk)
19:19, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
@
The C of E: A couple more CN tags, and then one last thing: for the "Legal Issues" section, is there any update to that story? It ends with "he was charged" but no mention of a conviction or not. That whole section could likely be trimmed down to 1-2 sentences. SpencerT•C16:28, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
One or both nominated events are listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Four people are killed and 36 others are injured in a bus crash on
Highway 97C in
British Columbia, Canada. The crash was attributed to "icy roads" following the winter storm.
(Sky News)
The Nara District Public Prosecutors Office in
Nara Prefecture,
Japan, says that the accused
assassin of former
prime ministerShinzo Abe is competent to stand trial for the killing.
Prosecutors say that Tetsuya Yamagami "does not suffer from any
mental illness that could greatly affect his ability to judge right from wrong". According to sources, prosecutors plan to indict Yamagami on
murdercharges.
(Yomiuri)
Sitiveni Rabuka is confirmed as the new
prime minister. Rabuka will hold the office again more than two decades after first leading the country as prime minister.
(AP via VOA)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Comment - Agreed with The Bestagon. Like it or not, you will likely find that just one death is a difficult cup for ITN to drink from. For similar comparisons, the Paris shooting nomination immediately above this one is contentious with three people being killed.--🌈WaltCip-(
talk)16:14, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose domestic crime that does not yet appeared to have any serious motivation like terrorism or hate crime. That might change if they capture the suspect but on its own, its a type of "everyday crime" not suited for ITN much less WP. --
Masem (
t)
13:46, 26 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Italian Foreign Minister, European Commissioner of Justice. Needs some ref improvement but otherwise looks comprehensive. -
Indefensible (
talk)
07:21, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
"Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD." Your comment should focus on the quality of the article, not the subject's notability. The ⬡ Bestagon[t][c]14:40, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Weak oppose Career section has limited depth of coverage, seems entirely a list of roles in media without additional detail. Essentially a CV in prose format. SpencerT•C03:28, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
One or both nominated events are listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Support I nominated the election result, and the election article was great already back then but they did take a long time to actually form a government.
Abcmaxx (
talk)
15:22, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment - I remember we blurbed the election beforehand. I'm not sure as to whether or not we should blurb both the results of an election and the party actually getting into power.
PrecariousWorlds (
talk)
21:47, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I've never heard of a tanker explosion in South Africa, where I've lived my whole life, or anywhere else in Southern Africa for that matter. They've always been the sort of thing that happens far away, in Central Africa or Latin America (surely "that part of the world", when applied to South Africa, should mean Southern Africa -- not the whole of the world's second largest continent).
Eric of Johannesburg (
talk)
19:18, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
You might be interested in the
Braamfontein Explosion. It happened in 1896 and a trainful of dynamite is just loosely like a truckful of liquefied petroleum gas, but it's the only other article Wikipedia categorizes as an explosion in South Africa. Information's a bit scant in that one, too.
InedibleHulk (
talk)
01:50, 26 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The holiday season is the absolute worst time to have this much loss. So many families, altered irreparably, during what's supposed to be the happiest time of the year.
Kurtis(talk)20:01, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose There are numerous domestic fires all the time and there's plenty of examples in the news just today: "Firefighters call for back-up as huge shed fire rages..."; "Dog ‘started fire’ on Christmas Eve..."; "Fire crews tackle Christmas Eve blaze in kitchen..."; "Fire crews tackle large 'cannabis factory' fire..."; "West Belfast: Seven led to safety from apartment fire...";"Fire crews attend Old Course Hotel after laundry room blaze..."; "Warning over spate of UK house fires as residents try to cut energy bills..."; etc.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
22:50, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose more on the blurb, the nursing home was illegal per the article lead. I oppose its posting anyway, nice laaaaaaaarge map which sort of made the article a paragraph larger. But if this actually comes through the blurb should include that the nursing was illegal.
Paradise Chronicle (
talk)
13:14, 26 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment: Article pretty bare bones, with multiple 1- and 2-sentence paragraphs, and in need of copyediting. No current consensus for posting, and multiple supports mention that article quality also needs some work; removing "ready". SpencerT•C04:16, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Authorities are treating it as a racially motivated shooting, which riding it above a basic "domestic incidebt" that we'd normally overlook. --
Masem (
t)
14:34, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Really? How about every mass shooting in the United States over the past year, including ones that had exponentially more coverage around the world than this. nableezy -
17:17, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
You may want to read
WP:HOWITNWORKS and specifically look at the "Mass shootings" section. We definitely post mass shootings on ITN. The fact that the United States comprises the outsize majority of those nominated does not mean we discount the ones with low death tolls that happen outside the U.S. 🌈WaltCip-(
talk)18:10, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
You may want to drop the condescension a few notches. Im aware of how euro-centric ITN is, where insignificant stories that are barely covered around the world are breathlessly brought here as earth-shattering events, but ITN should focus on stories that are widely covered. This shooting barely rates, with the NYTimes for example not even mentioning it on its homepage, same with ABC (Australia), same with al-Jazeera in English and Arabic. So, given how shootings with significantly greater coverage are routinely shot down, mostly by people supporting this one, I continue to oppose this as not meriting coverage here. nableezy -
19:58, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support - This has motivated protests from the Kurdish community all over France(which we should probably put in the blurb as well), and has made headlines throughout the world.
PrecariousWorlds (
talk)
21:49, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support – The attack led to death of 3 and sparked demonstrations in France and elsewhere. France police clash with the protestors on Friday, left 11 officers injured
[29]. --
Mhhosseintalk08:08, 26 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose doesn't seem like it will have a lasting impact. Right now even the protests fall short of ITN in my opinion, but perhaps if they escalate.
YD407OTZ (
talk)
10:37, 26 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose Relatively run of the mill incident with low loss of life. Likely meets the standard for WP:N, but does not rise to the level significance we typically look for at ITN. -
Ad Orientem (
talk)
22:31, 26 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment/Question: As an American this (unfortunately) seems to be not super major—is there anything about this event in particular that makes it ITN-worthy?
DecafPotato (
talk)
02:17, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
France experiences more domestic terrorism than some other nations, but it is still unusual, particularly using a firearm and resulting in multiple fatalities. In terms of mass shootings, the United States is an awful outlier, but there's half a chance if this happened in the US it might get posted, as targeted terrorism is news (all the personal disputes, gang shootings, accidents, etc. accounting for most of the US's mass shootings are not).
Kingsif (
talk)
18:37, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support the intentional targeting of an ethnic minority, the rarity of this type of gun crime in France, and the fact that two of the dead are described as "the head of the Kurdish women's movement in France" and " a Kurdish singer-songwriter and political refugee" and thus are likely notable (although neither as an article in the English Wikipedia) all are good reasons to support. ~ ONUnicorn(
Talk|
Contribs)problem solving18:46, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Three people are killed and four others are injured in a
mass shooting at a
Kurdish community center in
Paris,
France. The perpetrator, a 69-year-old Frenchman, is arrested.
(BBC News)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Comment: Added a couple refs and details. His 17-season club playing career could use some expansion. Tagged a couple of other areas needing citations, and one of the refs referring to his brother as Rojo II I couldn't find any info related to the cited statement and marked it as such. With a couple additional sentences there, the refs, and +/- some additional depth regarding his coaching career (
here is one good article), this should be good to go. SpencerT•C02:36, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Abcmaxx: I'm not sure where you're seeing the page as fully referenced, as there are multiple CN tags and other referencing issues (e.g. cited info not in provided ref) that have been present since the start of the nomination. SpencerT•C19:17, 29 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Comment Source formatting needs major clean-up. Mid-sentence citations are ok every now and again, but the article uses them way too much to the point it affects readability.
Curbon7 (
talk)
00:25, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: The media are not sure what to call this or how many Ts there are in Elliot(t) but they all seem to agree that it's going to be big. As the death toll has started, it seems ready for consideration here.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
09:05, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support in principle, but for now oppose on quality. Its apparently a large storm coming in and it will affect a large part of our readership. I have experienced that a Wikipedia article is at times (even much) better informed than a broadcast of a news agency. Its the celebrations going on, in order to assist the ones who need some help in this situation, I support its inclusion also into ongoing.
Paradise Chronicle (
talk)
11:28, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support/
moved from oppose for quality, article is fairly expanded now and if the death toll is what moves the balance, then that one is high enough now. If ITN has place for issues with a few death and little impact on a larger population, I suggest it has also place for issues that affect millions of people, be it negative or positive.
Paradise Chronicle (
talk)
22:47, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Wait - this is definitely worth a discussion beyond saying "winter = cold", but I'm not sure it rises to ITNCRIT just yet. Also, the article isn't updated; the infobox says 8 fatalities and yet the prose only lists one in Oklahoma.
Anarchyte (
talk)
12:10, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Wait - I can see indications that this storm might turn out to be pretty big, and ITN-worthy, but as of right now it is just a forecast. Lets wait until the impact of this becomes clear.
PrecariousWorlds (
talk)
12:55, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Wait & Oppose Blurb: The name “Winter Storm Elliott” is an unofficial name given by
The Weather Channel, which is naming winter storms despite
NWS directly asking them not to. So, Wikipedia cannot include “Elliott” anywhere in a blurb on the main page. P.S.: Pretty sure every WP Weather member would instantly do a pull !vote if the name was included. Lol
Elijahandskip (
talk)
14:11, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Pointless drama.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
C'mon, don't cite CIR here. That's such a leap. The storm has largely been reported on by this name, and while it may not be proper to call it such, it's not some egregious decision to use the name.
DarkSide830 (
talk)
18:18, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Elijahandskip: Shut up and stop trying to dig yourself into a hole. As a member of WP:Weather, I would personally vote for adding the Elliott name to the main page and including them in Wiki more despite being unofficial. Yes people will argue that its just a publciity stunt but since TWC have been doint it for several years now that arguments very weak.
Jason Rees (
talk)
18:32, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
As I have been told many, many times in the past (even at ANI by admins), editors can have personal opinions & in this case, my personal opinion is that any editor, who has knowledge of “Elliott” being an unofficial name & who supports it being on the main page is not fit to edit weather related articles on Wikipedia. That’s a personal opinion and I am perfectly allowed to have it.
Elijahandskip (
talk)
22:40, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Rockstone35 and @
Elijahandskip: It is extremely rude to be told that im not fit to edit weather-related articles or Wikipedia after 15+ years, just because I see no reason why the name Elliott shouldn't be included in the blurb on the main page. After all, I have knowledge of the TWC naming scheme as well as various other naming schemes that would go up on the main page where relevant and we include names assigned by PAGASA on the mainpage that are also completely unofficial. it is also interesting to note that weather naming was extremely controversial when it first started with Mr Wragge.
Jason Rees (
talk)
02:10, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose and wait — I oppose the blurb entirely, and I believe we should wait. Winter Storm Elliott is not an official name, and the death count remains relatively low for ITN. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him)15:01, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Its going back to 50 in Chicago next week, so yes just a cold snap. The only strange thing is that it hasnt been this cold till now out here. nableezy -
18:04, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Indeed. Here in South Florida the temp hit 81 a few hours ago and is now in the process of crashing down to the mid 30s for overnight. That's damned chilly for here. But not unheard of. The cold will last through Monday. By Thursday we will be back in the low 80s. -
Ad Orientem (
talk)
20:19, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
• Oppose and Wait first off, the storm is in winter, which is to be expected in North America, second, the death count is relatively low for front page, and third, "Winter Storm Elliot" is not even the official name yet.
Editor 5426387 (
talk)
17:23, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Wait just a cold snap is not a reason to post, but given numerous power outages I've read, there is a potential for a death toll, and we should wait on that. --
Masem (
t)
17:27, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
There is a lot of buzz about this storm being particularily severe, and while you can attribute that to media hype, it has still already killed ten people. We shouldn't discount it just yet.
PrecariousWorlds (
talk)
18:00, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I still think it would take a serious turn of events to make this storm ITN, IMO. 10 deaths is not nothing, but I think 10 deaths in conjunction with a winter storm is different than 10 deaths during another event, simply due to scope and the natural danger of low winter temperatures (and there is something to be said about the fact that the death totals for winter storms can take into account a large number of cold-related deaths that can not be properly separated from the storm but may not explicitly be related to the storm itself).
DarkSide830 (
talk)
18:16, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose alt3 as well, as it simply isnt true. There are on this day records being broken but definitely not all time record low temperatures or wind chills. nableezy -
02:17, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
No need to be patronizing. This is more than just "winter cold", and could be one of the biggest this decade. Either way, we shouldn't immediately discount it.
PrecariousWorlds (
talk)
18:57, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Im not patronizing anybody. But as a Chicagoan I assure you this is nothing. Every year there is a wicked cold snap out here. This isn't even that extreme, we usually have some days with the windchill below -50. nableezy -
22:57, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
If "it" is intense cold, it is not in Canada. Just bringing wind and snow to the Old Provinces, potentially ruining thousands of Christmases and Boxing Days with reduced visibility, travel and electricity. The unseasonal heat carries on, albeit slightly cooled for four days.
InedibleHulk (
talk)
05:38, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Affected by power outages and flight cancellations due to wind and snow, though. In provinces far away from this particular system, the BBC also notes some cold advisories. Nothing deadly, unusual or whatever shocking adjective, just a more stereotypical Canadian winter than Ontario and Quebec have been having. My condolences to you in Florida. I get how that ain't right.
InedibleHulk (
talk)
06:04, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment: in the US, the EPA estimates that every year, the death rate due to cold exposure is
3-6 deaths per million. Multiplied by 331 million, this comes out to ~1000-2000 deaths every year. So 11 deaths so far is terrible, but not out of the ordinary.VRtalk21:45, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Wait -- the people saying that this is expected weather because it's the winter must not have the appropriate context -- it's not just cold out, it's going to get REALLY cold out, across the entire continent -- much more than usual. As of this moment, it's probably not worth posting, but it's still extraordinarily and unusually cold, and it's possible that things could get really bad. Here in Florida, we're going to see temperatures drop below 32F (0C) for the first time in five years; it may actually snow in some parts of the state. That's unusual for us. --
RockstoneSend me a message!21:56, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Wait - Since the storm is still ongoing I think we should wait until death tolls, # of power outages, cost of damage, etc. is out until we put it in. Perhaps we should wait until after Christmas Day?
Phrogge (
talk)
21:59, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Wait -- US-centrism of a relatively insignificant (so far) weather event. Would be a better candidate if long-term societal significance was apparent, such policy changes or economic consequences. --
K.e.coffman (
talk)
22:21, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Ontario is snowy, but far warmer than it should be in late December. If this was presented as a snow story, I'd Weak Oppose. As an "intense cold" deal, Pfft!InedibleHulk (
talk)
01:36, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
How cold can it get on your part of the Shield? If your weakest province record is -35F PEI 1884 then even Sudbury must be holy crap. Ontario even beats Nunavut! (though maybe North Ontario has better weather station coverage than Nunavut)
Sagittarian Milky Way (
talk)
02:26, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
My people have largely given up on degrees, and now go by what it "feels like", as a simple number. Minus forty is certainly holy crap, but not uncommon in the Old Normal. Today it's a balmy freezing (or about 30 above, in your southern lingo). The hydro/power is still quite on in this neck of the Woods. Nunavut is presumably still a hellscape (
I was wrong), but the relative handful of Inuit know what they're doing, eh?
InedibleHulk (
talk)
02:44, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Since Manhattan's weather records started Jan 1.0 1869: 29F always happened 22 to 99 times a year, 19F always happened 1+ times a year, 9F happened 19 of the last 30 years and a mild minus ONE only happened 2 of the last 13,850 days (2016, 1994). Minus TWO last happened 1994, minus THREE TO EIGHT last happened 1943 (World War 2 blackout?). Minus NINE TO FIFTEEN only happened 1 day in the Great Depression. Unofficially the record is minus SIXTEEN (-26.7C) in the British occupation of 1776-1783 when the saltwater froze so thick people walked across the 5 mile long harbor.
Sagittarian Milky Way (
talk)
06:59, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Some damn fine facts and figures, thanks. I'll change my vote to Weak Pfft. Not for any of that relatively ancient history, but because I lost power for about SIX HOURS shortly after my last post.
InedibleHulk (
talk)
00:06, 26 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I also say Meh as it didn't snow, power loss ZERO HOURS and only reached PLUS SEVEN which is only about an average year's low these days. How am I supposed to be impressed by "too thin to measure" when I've seen 2 feet of accumulation?
Sagittarian Milky Way (
talk)
02:37, 26 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Change to Support -- continues to be in the news. Prefer Alt blurb III; or at least those that do not use 'once in a generation' and 'Winter storm Elliot'. These are not what's being used. --
K.e.coffman (
talk)
16:42, 26 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose the alternative blurb as we should not be calling a storm "once-in-a-generation" in wikipedia's voice as if there was some broad consensus on that being true. There have been three category 5 snowstorms in the US
[31] in the last 20 years. VRtalk02:04, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
As a former resident of the Midwest I have lived through 4 or 5 "once in a lifetime" storms. Its clearly a euphanism that has no right to be used in wikivoice.
Masem (
t)
20:59, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I've added an altblurb2 that does not mention the unofficial name nor once in a generation, but adds a salient point about power outages which are a contributing factor to the deaths
Masem (
t)
21:26, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Actually it looks like the NWS predicted it was going to be a once-in-a-generation storm on the 21st while it was still developing over the Great Plains. We'd need to see them calling it that in retrospect.
Valereee (
talk)
21:31, 26 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Wait If something crazy happens, the storm gets more severe or something, there's reason to put it. However, we are still early in the storm, and while there has been a couple deaths, unless things get more severe, or something major happens as a result, we should hold off on this.
TheBlueSkyClub (
talk)
02:21, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support coverage of one of the most severe arctic outbreaks and winter storms in decades, not only based on its severity but also on its disruption to the holiday season. I'm not sure why this section is full of snide comments mentioning how it's cold and snowy in the winter...that isn't the point. The point is that this system is especially intense compared to normal. By that line of reasoning, no hurricane should ever make it in the news, since hurricanes are common in the summer and fall after all. Just more broadly, this system has attracted constant coverage not only in the United States, but also in Canada and Europe from sources I've seen today alone. If our in the news section isn't covering things that are...actually in the news...then I'm not sure what its purpose is.
TropicalAnalystwx13 (
talk ·
contributions)
02:57, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
We have to take in media bias which us US heavy, in addition to news otherwise being slow. Cold snaps like this have happened before and are typical, and its only the media trying to ramp up the story.
Masem (
t)
03:53, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, I would ask every American editor keen to see this posted if they any idea what the weather is doing in other parts of the world right now. Does their media ever tell them?
HiLo48 (
talk)
04:35, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm the nominator and I'm British, not American. I'd noticed the story building in the media and nominated it when it was the top read story on BBC News -- a British institution. I've also noticed other weather stories around the world like
heavy snow in Japan and
flash flooding in Mecca. It would be good if ITN did more to keep us informed about all such events but you have to start somewhere.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
10:16, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Both the BBC and the Guardian amplify US news Moreno than other regions (though obviously not as much as their UK coverage) so just saying the BBC covers a topic. Also as a reminder, placement on online news pages should not be used as a factor since these can be customized by geolocation or time.
Masem (
t)
22:56, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment. I also must add, beyond the previous comment I made, that this article is a complete mess. There are way too many subsections to the article and each very short. There is practically no information in the lede. This article is nowhere near ready to post in its current state.
DarkSide830 (
talk)
04:26, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support - I am seeing headlines from USA Today to
this one on the front page of the
Times of India. Death toll mounting. Airline and land travel halted. Millions without power. It's in the news, all right. Arguments to the contrary are unconvincing. Happy Holidays to all.
Jusdafax (
talk)
10:52, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Wait for death toll finalization, but conditional support We go by level of media coverage - even if we subjectively think this is just another winter storm, if there is global widespread news coverage, then it becomes ITN worthy. Per above, this is the case here: news outlets are treating this as a particularly notable winter storm. Other winter storms which were not so particularly notable as to gather widespread and global coverage may not make it to ITN, but this one does. I think that's fairly logical and consistent with ITN precedent re: inclement weather events.
FlipandFlopped ツ15:02, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose on quality, support on notability An all time record low was broken in Casper, WY. Several temperature drop records were broken. Over two million lost power. Over ten thousand flights were delayed or cancelled. Twenty were killed. This is making major headlines across the world. However, the article is a mess, and the subsections need to be removed and the article needs heavy reorganization, all without removing information from the article. That will be a nightmare for an editor to do. Or, we can expand the subsections significantly, which will make the article quite comprehensive in the coverage of the storm.
64.25.27.224 (
talk)
16:42, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
ITN is not a place to capture weather records, we're looking at outcomes from that. Hence why just being an intense cold snap is not sufficient, but the resulting damage it may bring (which is happening but the extent doesn't seem to be too great, yet)
Masem (
t)
18:37, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support per TropicalAnalystwx13. Agree the name Elliott should be nowhere near the blurb, though I'm not that thrilled with the phrasing of the altblurb either.
Ks0stm(
T•
C•
G•
E)18:44, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support Alt Blurb 2: After discussion with other editors, the starting blurb and alt blurb one are going to cause problems from various editors. Alt blurb two covers the topic well. Previous !vote was a wait/oppose original blurb.
Elijahandskip (
talk)
22:36, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Now support. This was the impact we've been waiting for and the reason why it was too premature at the time of nomination to support or oppose. 🌈WaltCip-(
talk)15:16, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support. Major weather event, as significant as any major tropical storm. I would also support disregarding the !votes that are opposing because they seek international notability.
Thebiguglyalien (
talk)
16:32, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Bedivere: For goodness sake, drop the "center of the world" invective. The use of it is lazy and also false. People have their own reasons for supporting something besides nationality. 🌈WaltCip-(
talk)14:47, 26 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support. Maybe I'm biased because I'm right in the middle of the storm, but given the scope of damage I believe this is a major news story of international significance.
dekema (Formerly Buffaboy) (
talk)
22:03, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose the name at least North America is everything from Panama to Alaska. Chatted with a relative in Alberta for Christmas. It's warmer there than usual. Apparently there is a storm somewhere, but it's NOT affecting much of North America at all. Please narrow down the location in the title.
HiLo48 (
talk)
23:08, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Even the 1-2% of Colombia that still looks like part of the umbilical should be North America. Many agree Turkey is (at least physical geographically) transcontinental but the part of Colombia clearly in the umbilical and suddenly the border is God. Anyway the
non-tropical cyclone traveling over the
Great Lakes sucked air in counterclockwise making the map of air warmer and colder than normal look like a
yin-yang symbol without the fishes' eyes. With mild air that came from low latitude swirling all the way around to northernmost
Ontario by now and cold air from Northwest North America swirling to Mexico and further counterclockwise to the northeast tip of USA and the coming extreme mildness (I'm guessing drunk jet stream not storm this time) already reaching Alberta (jet stream undulations usually move west to east in North America, I've read New York City could have the warmest year change on record (12/31/1868 23:59:60 to now) which is bonkers as the record is 14.44C at midnight.
Sagittarian Milky Way (
talk)
00:52, 26 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment The alternate altblurb is getting better, but still suggests the cold knocked out the power and killed most of the people, rather than the snow and wind. Not trying to diminish the importance of the homeless people who legit froze, they're just few and far between the car crashes. Anyway, Merry Christmas!
InedibleHulk (
talk)
00:10, 26 December 2022 (UTC)reply
No, thats not how its phrased. The storm (already implying wind and snow) brought low temps which gad both e effecr of knocking out power and killing several (not necessarily only to those without power). There's a point in being too pedantic in wording blurbs.
Masem (
t)
00:45, 26 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I am a pedant, so there's no such thing as too pedantic, in my opinion. Would you be OK with changing "knocking" to "knocks" and "killing" to "kills"? That'd make it seem like a list of three storm effects instead of one effect and two subeffects (I won't fight you on the serial comma and concede that sometimes low temps cause power outages indirectly by making consumers turn up electric heaters and necessitate rolling blackouts).
InedibleHulk (
talk)
00:56, 26 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment Parts of Alberta, Saskatchewan, and the corresponding states along the same longitudes were just about the only places that did not see extreme weather over the past 72 hours (south of, oh, 60-ish.) The Pacific northwest actually saw two separate storms, each highly disruptive. Four highly unusual things about the Dec 22-25 storm. (1) The deep jet stream trough has dragged freezing temperatures, often colder than Nunavut (northern Canada), all the way to the Gulf of Mexico; (2) This is the second generational-level storm to hit Buffalo / Niagara region within a single month; (3) More than 2/3 of Canada and U.S. (and parts of Mexico) were or are under weather warnings: rainfall, flash flood, wind / sieche, flash freeze, freezing rain, freeze (in southern states), snowfall, winter storm, extreme cold, blizzard -- at the SAME time. Most of the Canadian population and more than half the U.S. population were directly affected. Many places transitioned from an above-freezing warning to one or more below-freezing warnings without the storm ending. Many of those areas were under warnings for DAYS. (4) Transportation disruptions across Canada and the U.S. were exacerbated by Christmas holiday travel. All travel was shut down at the two largest airports in Canada (YYZ, YVR) for nearly a day -- and that simply does not happen in Canada with typical snowfalls. (Other countries come to YYZ to learn how airports can continue to function in snow.) Add to this the heavy cancellations of passenger rail in both Canada and the U.S., due entirely to weather. (VIA Rail had to cancel all Christmas Day and nearly all Christmas Eve travel on its most heavily used route -- train was hit by a tree, trees across the rails, and a CNR derailment on the same tracks. The weather in that region was the same as Buffalo conditions.) Add to this that in Buffalo and other places, all fire trucks and a significant number of other first responders were immobilized by the snow. (How many police cars were struck in accidents while responding to other accidents?) Add to this the death rate (which will climb, because in this kind of situation, specific news is slow in getting out -- remember Buffalo part 1, and multiply by 10). But please, don't use a storm name. It is not government-issued, like hurricane names. It is only one commercial media channel's branding. Btw the last event at all comparable to this in intensity and scale happened in 2008 -- and I would say, based on precipitation, temperature, wind etc, it was not as severe, and definitely not as severe over as wide an area. (Yes, I know the U.S. has had other winter storms since then, even large-scale ones -- but not as severe overall, by several magnitudes.) - Tenebris
66.11.165.101 (
talk)
00:43, 26 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I do think the emphasis on this storm needs to be on its scale (percentage of U.S. and Canadian population affected), its intensity (which is what created those winds), and (not least) the deep cold that stretched all the way to the Gulf of Mexico, even to where it borders Mexico (and also see Mexican weather alerts). The last, in particular, is exceptional. Deep cold in the Plains is not all that unusual, frost and freezes happen occasionally in northern Florida, but when sub-freezing cold gets to Houston, Corpus Christi, and New Orleans, it is another animal altogether. One of the ironies of this storm is that northern Ontario actually did not get hit that hard, compared with the south. It was not just the snow (I am from the snow belt: shrug), and the temperatures were/are not all that cold for CANADA in winter. However, the extreme and prolonged SW winds associated with this storm were MUCH stronger in the south than the north, in a much more heavily populated region. Anywhere those winds met unfrozen water (see above-average temperatures prior to this storm), heavy snow and whiteouts were inevitable. Again, the holiday timing also coincided with the busiest time of year for travelling, which certainly contributed to the overall travel chaos (and, regretfully, many injuries and deaths) -- but storms on different tracks have significantly affected holiday transportation before this. - Tenebris
66.11.165.101 (
talk)
01:20, 26 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Posting. The article looks fine, the update tag in the casualties section can probably be removed because updates will be going on as long this is taking place. --Tone21:51, 26 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Ridicuous "Across North America" is insanely inaccurate. Look like classical American hype to me. North America goes from Alaska to Panama.
HiLo48 (
talk)
09:35, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
When there were European weather systems, we said "across Europe", even though countries in Eastern Europe got little of the effects. Its a simple enough shorthand for a blurb.
Masem (
t)
13:29, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Both Canada and U.S. combined (the countries which this storm affected the most) represent 19,631,761 km2 of land compared to the total 22,319,941 km2 that North America represents. Cheap argument? Yes, but I can certainly understand the use of "North America" in ITN-speak, since we use similar terminology for storms that affect Europe, as Masem says. 🌈WaltCip-(
talk)18:14, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
But it didn't even affect most of Canada and the USA. We would NEVER write "across North America" for a storm that impacted everything south of the Mexican border, would we?
HiLo48 (
talk)
21:53, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
If a storm mostly affected counties like America. Panama, and others, we'd use "central America". Terms that have well known neaninfs to readers.
Masem (
t)
23:22, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Land of Canada and US combined is only less than 18 and a quarter million, you included some of the many levels of water (internal (not an international waterway), internal (international waterway (i.e.
Lake Superior), low enough to be ocean more than half of the time but close and/or high enough to be private property in that state, the 3+ nautical miles of the ocean that's part of the states instead of just part of America, 12 nautical mile territorial sea, 24 nautical mile customs zone, 200 nautical mile exclusive economic zone). Greenland alone is almost 2.2 million, Greenland plus Mexico is over 4.1 million, plus 7 Central American countries too is about 4.6 or 4.7 million, plus Caribbean is about 4.8 or 4.9 million, all land and land ice only (American land that might be double-counted here is only 0.027 million). We're both bigger than Oceania but we're not that big.
Sagittarian Milky Way (
talk)
22:11, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Post-posting support Huge event covered by major news outlets and has brought significant impacts to several parts of the US and Canada. I honestly prefer the fourth altblurb (just add Canada to that one; BC had 4 fatalities related to this), but I can live with the current one. As for the unofficial name, unless this becomes like the February 2021 event (aka Uri), I don't think it should be included in the blurb (just yet); as of this writing, it is not universally used by all major news agencies.
Vida0007 (
talk)
20:48, 28 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Coventry City F.C. receive a suspended five-point deduction after postponing three home games following the conclusion of the
Commonwealth Games in August. The team will need to pay compensation to the three opponents as well as to the
EFL. Coventry's chief executive blamed debt-ridden
rugby union club
Wasps RFC, who also use
the stadium.
(The Guardian)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
There doesn't seem to be much else available online, at least in English. He is mostly known for the separatist activities in the 1990s after the end of the USSR. -
Indefensible (
talk)
23:06, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
This is a stubby wikibio, currently with 272 words of prose and a single-sentence intro. It should get into start class once there is information added about what he did while he was a govt minister, MP and ambassador. Please also expand the intro. --
PFHLai (
talk)
09:58, 28 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Article needs updating Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Article needs updating Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Article needs updating Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Oppose There is no article for the subject. Then there are multiple sources in the article on chicken tikka masala that establish the origins of the dish as unknown. --
Rsrikanth05 (
talk)
10:09, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support - While it's not by any means certain that he was the inventor, he's being widely reported as such, and our article is clear about the ambiguity.
GenevieveDEon (
talk)
11:21, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
A vehicle travelling from Hayley Lapsset camp to
Garissa,
Kenya, hits a
roadside bomb planted by
Al-Shabaab militants, who then engage in a
shootout with the car's occupants, killing two police officers and a civilian, and injuring several others.
(Al Jazeera)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
We don't have a strict word/character count, only that the article has to be somewhat holistic. Naturally, it is very difficult to be holistic with less than (say) 250 words.
Curbon7 (
talk)
22:52, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment: This wikibio seems to be oddly structured. The lead section is supposed to be an introduction or summary, highlighting main points of the article, and the main prose is supposed to be where details and footnotes should go, starting materials on the subject's early life or how the career started, etc. Perhaps the materials in this wikibio need to be re-arranged for better flow. Also, where is the footnote for the date and place of birth? Info in the infobox needs to be mentioned and referenced in the main prose. --
PFHLai (
talk)
09:02, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I have no idea what you are talking about. Much shorter articles were accepted, including one about an Indonesian actress that no one had heard of outside her country.
Sakiv (
talk)
11:37, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Length is not an issue. The wikibio is long enough with 400+ words. The concern is how the materials are organized within the article. I have moved things around a bit, please have a look. There is still a gap in coverage between his two releases from prison in 1987 and 1999. (Why in prison again?) This gap needs to be filled. Another (minor) concern is that many of the references lack info on authorship and when & where they were published. I am unlikely to be able to log in again later today (UTC). Perhaps another admin can look at this nom while it is still eligible. Thanks. --
PFHLai (
talk)
18:20, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The article has been reformed to the extent that it now meets the conditions, but time passes and no one puts a summary. It was archived earlier today because no one could put an end to it.
Sakiv (
talk)
16:30, 28 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: An attempted coup in a sovereign state is notable and we have precedent in support. Also frequent coup attempts in Western Africa do not make it less notable than in other countries; nor has "nothing happened" as is frequently erroneously argued in response to nominations about failed coups, assassinations or similar, as they do have a lasting effect on the country and its governance and the people involved. Article needs a lot of expansion but sources present which should help.
Abcmaxx (
talk)
08:26, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support once article is improved I still think that a coup d'état, even if it is a (very) failed attempt, is ITNR-worthy. The article needs a lot of work, btw.
_-_Alsor (
talk)
09:06, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose The president of the Gambia is at odds with the army and uses foreign troops to support his rule. In such circumstances there will be natural friction and allegations will be made. As the scale of the allegations is not large and they are unproven, they seem insufficient.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
10:08, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The information comes from the BBC article cited in the nomination: "He has been distrustful of the military, with troops from neighbouring Senegal in charge of his personal security, while the main international airport and sea port are guarded by troops from Nigeria and Ghana respectively. This has made him unpopular with many Gambians, who feel that he has undermined the country's sovereignty by relying on foreign forces."
Andrew🐉(
talk)
13:22, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Wait the information at this stage is insufficient to support significance. This is essentially a press release stating facts that (as the BBC properly points out) are not supported by independent sources. GreatCaesarsGhost13:09, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Lean oppose At the moment, there is no fact here; it is simply a strongman doing strongman things. Unless there is some degree of independent confirmation, it's going to be a no for me. We should not publish a regime's propaganda.
Curbon7 (
talk)
16:44, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose. We should not blurb events that didn't happen unless under extreme circumstances. All that ended up occurring here were a handful of arrests.
DarkSide830 (
talk)
23:54, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose The article’s a stub and the military’s denying it even happened. Not really comparable to that of Germany a little while ago.
The Kip (
talk)
22:23, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose and wait Article is REALLY short, and also not much really happened, only five soldiers got arrested. There is too little information, until more information comes out, the article is expanded, and it is confirmed to have happened, then the article can be posted.
TomMasterReal (
talk) 02:18 26 December 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Oppose Slightly too short but also all of the filmography and most of his life is unreferenced. Also please do not use Daily Mail as a source.
Abcmaxx (
talk)
07:47, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment: Still too short with only 202 words of prose. Existing prose is rather lightly referenced and the first footnote uses the dreaded IMDb as source. The Filmography is currently unsourced. Please expand the article and add more REFs. --
PFHLai (
talk)
09:05, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: Historic visit, first time Zelenskyy is overseas since the start of the invasion. I could see why this wouldn't be notable for ITN, but it's being covered in the news, and is very high-profile.
PrecariousWorlds (
talk)
19:15, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose - This is notable to me but since the russian invasion of ukraine is already covered in ongoing I don't feel the reason to support this yet. However, if it does turn out that this gains significant news coverage or if it results in something major then I would change my vote.
Onegreatjoke (
talk)
20:23, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose - not a historic visit by any means. There have been
79 past foreign leaders to address a joint meeting of Congress between 1975-2022. nableezy -
21:32, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose and speedy close. Leaders often stop by legislatures while making foreign trips. We didn't post every time Obama stopped by the British Parliament while making a trip to the UK. Canuck89(Talk to me) or visit
my user page 23:10, December 21, 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: Article is updated but maybe there will be a better article to wikilink to. The fact that a country consciously deprives half the population of higher education I would see as a prominent issue.
Paradise Chronicle (
talk)
04:01, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose, sadly, only because this is more of the same by the Taliban in how women are treated there, and really isn't a step away from the current status quo.
Masem (
t)
05:22, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support I agree this approach from the Taliban is nothing new, but it is a major reversal of a long-standing consensus and a big turn in ramping up their doctrine after initially claiming they would not do so.
Abcmaxx (
talk)
08:15, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support A country banning the right to higher education, which under normal circumstances is constitutionally protected everywhere, for a specific group of people in the 21st century is notable news.--
Kiril Simeonovski (
talk)
08:13, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
What? How is this tendentious? This was really not the aim. Please explain, so I can avoid this perception in the future. My rationale was: If the death of a few people is worth an ITN blurb, half the population of a country should be, too. It will affect far more people than the deaths of a many catastrophes we post on ITN. Who will think of the deaths of a catastrophe a few weeks later. This will be news for months if not years to come.
Paradise Chronicle (
talk)
10:30, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I think you're absolutely right here. If people oppose this, I would certainly hope that they're also opposing every single catastrophe that's of a lesser scope than this.
Thebiguglyalien (
talk)
16:24, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose – Our article does not seem to mention this news at all? Might support if our article had an in-depth description of how this is a unique change compared to all the other Taliban bans and laws put into place in the past year (such as the November ban from public spaces). It's particularly confusing because our article suggests that most schooling for women has been largely banned since March. Does this new ban only affect the current cohort? ~
Maplestrip/Mable (
chat)
11:01, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Article looks a lot clearer already, but I am still unclear on what the situation was like before this new ban. It is hard to tell how big this change actually is compared to the situation a month ago. ~
Maplestrip/Mable (
chat)
14:05, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support. I think we need to lower the bar for human rights/women's rights stories to be posted on ITN. Yes, it's the Taliban and we all expect it. But it was apparently newsworthy enough for the Grauniad to cover.--🌈WaltCip-(
talk)14:27, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
And I also think slightly off-putting to those who don't regularly contribute to ITN. The lingo that we circulate around here doesn't always make sense to people who make good faith nominations, and it can also present a chilling effect against future noms. 🌈WaltCip-(
talk)15:13, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
If you believe that
WP:RGW opposes are offputting, then you perhaps shouldn't support with the rationale "I think we need to lower the bar for human rights/women's rights stories to be posted on ITN." which reads exactly like, well,
WP:RGW.
Fram (
talk)
16:40, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
WP:RGW has nothing to do with my support. I am interested in having more underrepresented topics on ITN in general without needing to have some altruistic bias to go along with it. 🌈WaltCip-(
talk)16:50, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose on quality - I would actually support this but the article makes little to no mention about this at all. Because of that it's hard for me to actually support this. i would support it once added though.
Onegreatjoke (
talk)
16:16, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support in principle, oppose on quality per above. Agree with WaltCip that human rights developments are a good candidate for ITN (not for RGR reasons, to me it's fairly easy to conclude that stories about major developments or regressions in human rights are newsworthy), but the target article will need to provide further information about the topic before we can post it. Vanilla Wizard 💙17:51, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
May I suggest also "attending or teaching" to that blurb? This move completely eliminates women from all elements of the education system there.
Masem (
t)
00:26, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
added, though I feel like it would flow better with teaching at or attending but also feel like the main bit of the story is attending and that should come first. nableezy -
00:57, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose This is the worldwide news section for big events. The Taliban in Afghanistan oppressing and restricting women (like they always do) is a bad thing and I feel sorry for the women but isn't really ITN-worthy.
Evan224 (
talk)
01:00, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
You seem to dramatically misunderstand what ITN does and does not consider for posting. Not to gatekeep, but as this is only your 4th edit, I would highly recommend observing first before participating, as there is load of nuance that goes into blurbing.
Curbon7 (
talk)
01:08, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I'd sure like to direct you to
WP:ITNGLOBAL... Yes, this is just an essay, but the point is still the same, no matter how you read it: there is no requirement for international notability on ITN.🌈WaltCip-(
talk)13:42, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support in principle. While I was originally inclined to oppose under the premise of "well that's just what the Taliban does", a complete education ban is certainly worth posting.
DarkSide830 (
talk)
05:23, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Wait until Taliban's ban on primary education becomes clearer. The Taliban ban of women from universities is well supported by RS, but banning women from primary schools is not clear. NPR's
article (dated Dec 21) states, in present tense, "They allow girls to attend school until the sixth grade, when primary school ends. But they have prevented most girls from attending formal secondary school education..." CNN (date Dec 20)
quotes the US State Department as saying "With the implementation of this decree, half of the Afghan population will soon be unable to access education beyond primary school". WaPo's article (Dec 21)
[32] also gave more nuanced coverage than WSJ"While the official statement issued Tuesday by the Ministry of Education only covered universities, some female teachers and girls at primary schools in the Afghan capital, Kabul, reported being turned away from classes Wednesday morning." It might be that the primary education ban happened very recently and RS haven't yet caught up to it. Alternatively, I would support a blurb along the lines of "Taliban ban university education for women".VRtalk06:33, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I'd like to politely ask that Evan224 and Shadow4dark be reminded that at the top of this page is a banner that reads "Please do not... Oppose an item solely because the event is only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. This applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is generally unproductive." Vanilla Wizard 💙19:34, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support ALT3 per my statements above. However, it should be noted that this is a support in principle, as the article is not up to par.
Curbon7 (
talk)
16:48, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support and note of concern This event has received widespread, global media coverage: the India Times, CNN, BBC, Al Jazeera, the Jerusalem Post, the New York Times, Le Monde, etc. The RGW concerns have more of a basis in the subjective views of editors here than the actual level of coverage this has received. On that note, I would like to note with concern that proposals for ITN to ignore this event - despite every major news outlet in the world's coverage of it - simply because according to them, "it's just not that big of a deal coming from the Taliban, women are always going to be oppressed" reflects a
deeper-seeded problem which we collectively must seek to avoid.
FlipandFlopped ツ17:21, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
More than just that one bias, there American and Euro-centric biases. The
WP:CSB response to the
WP:RGW argument seems pretty obvious to me. We would of course be covering a move like this if it wasnt targeting poor brown women in a country that doesnt speak English. nableezy -
17:58, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose alt 3 for being misleading (which is a
WP:V violation). I am totally disgusted with Taliban's despicable treatment of women, but we need to maintain accuracy. I agree that Taliban banned university education for women, but did they ban primary education?
NPR's
Dec 22 article gives a more nuanced picture. It points out that some Taliban did indeed kick out female teachers from primary schools, but allowed "male staff" to remain (implying school wasn't totally shut down), and that this happened at a time the schools were closed for the winter anyway. It also adds that "It's unclear how extensive the ban will be; it was largely reported in one swath of Kabul." Further, the article says "[Taliban] ministry of education official said the "mujahideen" or Taliban security forces, who ordered female employees to go home had acted on a "misunderstanding." "Until there's an official letter," the notice said, "they are allowed to continue their jobs and come to school." Most RS are only reporting Taliban's ban on university education and are currently refraining from reporting Taliban's alleged ban on primary education.VRtalk21:00, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The Taliban have banned girls from attending primary school, the day after excluding women from university education. They also decreed women would no longer be able to work in any form of educational institutions in a further blow to personal freedoms in Afghanistan.
The decisions were made during a meeting between clerics, community leaders, police, the General Directorate of Intelligence and the Ministry of Vice and Virtue. They were declared to be temporary measures, but were introduced as such in the 1990s and never lifted by the previous Taliban regime.
Thanks for the response. Is the Times story merely reporting the WSJ story? I see that both seem to quote a shopkeeper named "Ghulam Sarwar Haidari" and I know newspapers often quote each other.
The NPR seems to have info that contradicts part of the WSJ story. WSJ states that "Taliban officials on Wednesday also barred female staff, including teachers, from working in schools". But the NPR, as shown above, says female teachers were thus far only expelled in part of Kabul and also quotes some Taliban officials as saying that expulsion was a "misunderstanding" and female teachers "are allowed to continue their jobs". The NPR article has more depth of coverage than the WSJ or ToL articles.VRtalk22:13, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Adding to that, most countries (US
[33], EU, Qatar
[34], Turkey, Saudi Arabia) have condemned Taliban for banning women from universities. Yet a total ban on all female education is even worse, but I don't see any country condemning Taliban for that. Prominent Afghans, like
Rahmanullah Gurbaz[35], have also condemned the ban on universities but said nothing about a ban on all education. Taliban minister
defended the university ban, but said nothing about a total ban.VRtalk22:33, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Vote Tally: I count 14 votes in favour, 8 opposed on principle, 2 opposed due to blurb/article quality. Hopefully this is helpful to a passerby assessing whether there is consensus to post.
FlipandFlopped ツ23:04, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Whether a piece of news is ITN-worthy is largely a vote count, yes. But concerns regarding blurb accuracy (which is fundamentally a
WP:V issue) should be treated as
WP:PNSD.VRtalk23:43, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I do think my question on whether this is actually a change from the March 2022 plans still stands. The article as it exists now suggests women were already banned from going to university. I do feel more comfortable with blurbing this either way now that even primary schools are included, though! ~
Maplestrip/Mable (
chat)
08:23, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
But putting the event on is mainly about arguments. One argument is about righting wrongs. But I do not see how it applies here because hardly anyone used that as an argument. Second argument was that it the page is for worldwide events. But this is a big event that achieved worldwide coverage and analysis in reliable sources, see article by Gordon Brown. Suspending education for females in a country is a worlwide event. I don‘t find arguments that convincing, and other opposes were on quality or “per above“, but there were hardly substantial Arguments above. And I argue that even if it was expected from Taliban, this does not mean that it is not significant event. We post significant expected events, like election results, sports events, awards. This still important milestone, albeit negative one.
Kirill C1 (
talk)
12:39, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Vice regent: there some more sources on the primary school ban.
The Evenening Standard says The second edict, prohibiting girls from attending primary school, came on Thursday. The step came following a meeting between police officials, the ministry for the propropagation of virtue and prevention of vice, and the country’s national intelligence agency. The latest move, which was not officially announced, means Afghan women and girls now effectively face a total ban on education.ABC News has completely blocking female students' access to education through a series of crackdowns culminating on Wednesday in a ban forbidding them from attending elementary school, setting the country's women back decades. Do you still oppose alt3? nableezy -
17:28, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Nableezy: yes I still oppose that blurb. The Evening Standard is
hardly a reliable source, and the source it cites for the primary school claim is sourced to
WP:DAILYMAIL, which is so bad that it is deprecated. ABC News is a better source, but it mentions a ban on "elementary" (is that the same thing as "primary"?) school in passing; for that claim it links to an article that only affirms the university ban but says nothing about primary nor elementary schools.VRtalk19:51, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
CNN is now covering the primary school development too, see
this video from 1:36 onwards. The CNN reporter, Nada Bashir, notes that 3 primary schools for girls were shut down in Kabul, but also notes that schools in Afghanistan are already closed due to winter holidays, and "its still unclear how far reaching this policy will be". VRtalk19:46, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, elementary is the same as primary and would be the word most often used in the United States. And ABC is not mentioning it passing, it is saying the university ban was extended the following day, the same as the other sources report. I think this is reliably sourced and dont really see a reason to question it on the basis that some other sources have yet to report that development. nableezy -
19:54, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
There are rather glaring omissions by other sources. For example, the UN mission which has personnel inside Afghanistan,
UNAMA, said on Wednesday "The UN and its humanitarian partners also urge the de facto authorities to reopen girls' schools beyond the sixth grade". Wouldn't they know about such a ban if it existed?
And NPR
quoted a contradicting order from the Taliban minister of education saying that female teachers are still allowed to teach. Both CNN
[36] and WaPo
[37] have used the word "some" to describe the amount of primary schools that the Taliban have closed.VRtalk19:59, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Strong support. This is the major development. I would vote support even in case of university ban alone, but here is comprehensive ban for female education and for women to be teachers. I do not see how the uncertainty with primary education affects importance of the event, because it is huge. Gordon Brown commented on this. It may not be so surprising - but isn't this fact a bit schocking, that we know and knew that females are going to be stripped of basic rights? We posted some unknown to most people sports competitions, this is a big thing that changes much fundamentally.
[38].
Kirill C1 (
talk)
The ban on women from NGOs looks widely covered, so I would be fine with adding that to the blurb. However, the fact that so many RS covered the university ban, and are now covering the NGO ban, but saying nothing about the supposed primary school ban is even more reason to doubt the veracity of WSJ's claims. See the coverage of the NGO ban by
Reuters,
BBC and
Al-Jazeera,
Dawn (from neighboring Pakistan) - all of which mention the university ban, but none say anything about the supposed primary school ban.VRtalk00:42, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I disagree with that entirely, that other sources dont also report something but do not dispute does not bring a reliable source in to question. There need to be sources disputing it. Anyway, there are more sources covering the primary school ban as well, eg
The Telegrapgh. nableezy -
00:49, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Nableezy, I mentioned 3 sources that gave information both in support and against a country-wide primary school ban for girls in Afghanistan (NPR, CNN and WaPo). The 4th source to give information both in support and against such a ban is the NYT
article you linked above (emphasis mine): "[Taliban] security forces in the capital, Kabul, this week held meetings with school principals, teachers and administrators of private education centers, instructing them to shut down their winter courses for all girls — including those in primary schools — and send home their female teachers, according to six education professionals across five districts in Kabul. Schools are currently on winter break but many students have been attending supplementary courses at private schools and education centers before the spring semester begins next year. When asked about the meetings, a spokesman for the [Taliban] Ministry of Education denied other reports that the government had officially banned girls from attending primary schools. But the meetings raised fears that the Afghan government may be laying the groundwork to further restrict girls’ education next year." The telegraph is behind a paywall for me.VRtalk01:58, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support. Major political shift from the last 20 years, and it's at a scale that's largely unprecedented in the modern world. I would also support disregarding !votes that are seeking international notability.
Thebiguglyalien (
talk)
16:21, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Post-posting support It's ridiculous how some editors think that half a country losing a fundamental human right is the status quo. Just because we expected something to happen doesn't mean it's not news (e.g. we all knew the Queen was going to die, but it was still big news when she did). I'm glad its posted, but the original sentiment seems like a
Global North and Global South bias, and a gender bias. —
PerfectSoundWhatever (
t;
c)
20:24, 26 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Peru expels the Mexican ambassador and declares him
persona non grata hours after Mexico grants asylum to the family of former Peruvian president Pedro Castillo.
(AP)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Comment: Article could use some copyediting, and would benefit from a little more regarding the subject's area of expertise (he was a tropical medicine who helped with health care in developing nations, but where specifically?). SpencerT•C21:34, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
We don't have a strict word/character count, only that the article has to be somewhat holistic. Naturally, it is very difficult to be holistic with less than (say) 250 words.
Curbon7 (
talk)
22:52, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment: This wikibio seems to be oddly structured. The lead section is supposed to be an introduction or summary, highlighting main points of the article, and the main prose is supposed to be where details and footnotes should go, starting materials on the subject's early life or how the career started, etc. Perhaps the materials in this wikibio need to be re-arranged for better flow. Also, where is the footnote for the date and place of birth? Info in the infobox needs to be mentioned and referenced in the main prose. --
PFHLai (
talk)
09:02, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I have no idea what you are talking about. Much shorter articles were accepted, including one about an Indonesian actress that no one had heard of outside her country.
Sakiv (
talk)
11:37, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Length is not an issue. The wikibio is long enough with 400+ words. The concern is how the materials are organized within the article. I have moved things around a bit, please have a look. There is still a gap in coverage between his two releases from prison in 1987 and 1999. (Why in prison again?) This gap needs to be filled. Another (minor) concern is that many of the references lack info on authorship and when & where they were published. I am unlikely to be able to log in again later today (UTC). Perhaps another admin can look at this nom while it is still eligible. Thanks. --
PFHLai (
talk)
18:20, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: A significant amount of deaths in a short space of time and rare fashion. Article needs to be significantly expanded and linked to the
Insurgency in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa article. Clumsy blurb but unsure how to cut it down, suggestions welcome.
Abcmaxx (
talk)
08:46, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Proposing a reworded blurb that may be more lean?: Pakistan's security forces free all hostages at a counterterrorism office in Bannu, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, killing 33 local Pakistani Taliban insurgents and losing 2 officers.
QueensanditsCrazy (
talk)
15:24, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
it maaaaayyyyyy be okay to ommit "losing 2 officers"?
Actually, the numbers seem to be changing - so maybe it will be best to omit the numbers and say somethign like, "killing all the Pakistani Taliban insurgents / hostage takers"? Sorry for multiple comments instead of one unified one.
Three police officers and a gunman are killed during a raid on the hideout of the suspected killers of a policeman during protests in
Ma'an,
Jordan. Nine people are arrested.
(Al Jazeera)
European Union member states agree to a
natural gasprice cap in an attempt to limit economic damage from the
global energy crisis. The price cap can be triggered beginning on February 15, if for three days, prices on the
TTF, which is the European natural gas benchmark, exceed
€180 per
megawatt-hour (MWh) and are also more than €35/MWh higher than a reference price based on
liquefied natural gas price assessments.
(Reuters)
American film producer
Harvey Weinstein is convicted on 3 of 7 sexual assault charges against him. The jury found Weinstein either not guilty, or was hung, on four other charges.
(CNN)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
A closer look at the references shows some issues. Added some CN tags; the sergent.com.au reference appears to be a personal blog/website so those would need to be adjusted, especially since it references claims that the subject was a "pin-up girl"; the Auckland Index ref was not working for me and also is used as a reference for material related to the subject's personal appearance; the smfforfree ref appears to be for a forum (it requires some kind of username/password so I cannot access that). This is just from some spot-checking, so needs a good look at all the referencing to ensure that it is appropriate and accurate. SpencerT•C21:31, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: German historian who researched the Wehrmacht and clarified wrong perceptions. The article was good and mostly sourced, but new sources add more detail. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk)
18:41, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support (article creator) -- it would be great to get recognition for this important historian, even if upon death. Nice work on the additions. --
K.e.coffman (
talk)
19:28, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Comment: could you please write a bit of a lead, and then have his life or however to call it after the TOC. Because as it it ism the TOC is of no help, - who will even see it's there? --
Gerda Arendt (
talk)
18:45, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Oppose Insufficient depth of coverage. NFL playing career is summarized in anecdote about him being carried off the field and a single additional sentence that has minimal information beyond what the infobox already has (Knafelc was a member of Vince Lombardi's first two NFL title teams in 1961 and 1962, and was inducted into the Packers Hall of Fame in 1976.). SpencerT•C23:31, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Lead singer of
The Specials,
Fun Boy Three and a few others - a musical legend. Unfortunately there is a fair amount of work needed in providing citations before it can go on the FP. Should now be all all supported with citations. -
SchroCat (
talk) 13:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
SchroCat (
talk)
23:01, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Chimpanzee who earlier in life has been source of both national (Swedish) and international media, as cited in article, was shot and killed under circumstances which has generated media intensity.
Chrill (
talk)
22:59, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Oppose.
Mrs. World is a minor pageant (the article is a partially sourced table of winners and a couple of controversies - there is nothing about the actual pageant itself). The winner's article is pretty much a stub with multiple grammar errors and it could actually be argued that she fails
WP:BLP1E.
Black Kite (talk)12:07, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
(Closed) Elon Musk to step down as head of Twitter
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Wait - Even though this result seems likely, the poll is still going on. We don't call an election before all the results are in, even if a candidate winning seems overwhelmingly likely. This is especially true in this case, where we don't know what role Elon will assume at Twitter, or what will even happen. It's quite a vague poll.
As for the actual notability, it does seem dubious to post the results of a Twitter poll to ITN, but if it leads to Elon stepping down from the company entirely, that could be notable for ITN. Either way, there is no way to know what exactly this will lead to, and thus we should wait until after the poll, and after whatever change takes effect in order to make a decision. Though this is a good faith nomination, remember
WP:CRYSTAL. We can't predict the future.
PrecariousWorlds (
talk)
10:51, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose First, the Twitter poll itself is not notable. Only the potential outcomes that may result from the completion of the poll. Second, the blurb is at best misleading. The word "referendum" implies that this poll has some sort of official status, when it is in fact just a Twitter poll.
Chrisclear (
talk)
10:56, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Watch this space/wait If a leadership change happens, I believe it would be notable. Also as a note, the time has expired and the Yes vote has prevailed. Musk has not reacted yet as of posting. I likely will likely be offline when something does happen, so I can't change my "vote"/comment on this nomination yet. -
TenorTwelve (
talk)
11:36, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose - And just what are we going to do?! Call the United Nations if he doesn't adhere to the results of this meaningless poll? Let's wait for something tangible rather than this disincarnate bullshit.--🌈WaltCip-(
talk)13:08, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose Until we know for sure, and what the implications are (he's implied he might close down Twitter completely which would be newsworthy), we're in the realm of speculation. --
Masem (
t)
13:17, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose on its face. This is a proposed reshuffling of deck chairs. Ownership, and therefore power over the company, remains the same no matter whether a functionary is named as a titular new "head".
BD2412T13:26, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: was hoping they would have formed a government by now for a more concise blurb but it's unlikely to happen any time. Nonetheless the article is great.
Abcmaxx (
talk)
10:58, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support altblurb. ITNR and the article is in good shape. The results have been updated, referencing is good, and there's prose on the outcome in the 'aftermath' section. Seems good to go.
Modest Geniustalk15:14, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment please could we phrase this blurb in plain English? Readers aren't necessarily likely to know what a "plurality" is, and sources don't usually use that term. I suspect it just means he got the most votes, right? —
Amakuru (
talk)
18:24, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
We cannot, because...Fijifirst and the opposition coalition are both negotiating with another party to reach a majority, so he is not certain to remain in office. This nom seems premature to me.
Joofjoof (
talk)
20:07, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
It would still not be inaccurate to say that Fijifirst received the most votes, no matter the outcome of the negotiations, and would be more likely to be understood by most readers. (This has also been raised at ERRORS).
Pawnkingthree (
talk)
20:20, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Blurb 3 is misleading. The blurb indicates that the coalition parties has now formed government when in fact they just agreed to form a coalition government. No government has been formed yet. The Parliament that is yet to be summoned by the President (Section 67) will elect the new PM per section 93 of the Fijian constitution. I think we should hold off for now because the ruling FijiFirst party still has not conceded.
(Source).
KRtau16 (
talk)
08:07, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Around 20
Pakistani Taliban members seize control of a counterterrorism centre in
Bannu,
Pakistan, killing one officer and taking six hostages. The attackers are demanding safe passage to
Afghanistan.
(Al Jazeera)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Prolific internationally recognised Belgian composer of operas and other classical music. The article was there but references were missing or no longer available. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk)
15:58, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: Article needs work but feels fairly significant, commissioned naval vessels don't sink that often. I'll see if I get time to improve the article today -
Dumelow (
talk)
13:29, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Significant event (ships in general, but particularly military ships, tend to not randomly slip below the waves during peacetime, even in storms), but the article is very minimal and needs some serious improvement.
173.179.105.16 (
talk)
15:02, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support on merits, weak support on quality. Unusual event with (probably) substantial loss of life. Apparently this is only the fourth Thai warship to have sunk, ever. The article is quite bare-bones but does just about meet our minimum requirements. There's a disappointing lack of detail, both about the ship and the capsizing. I hope this can be improved while discussion continues; I don't see anything that would prevent it being posted though. Altblurb added.
Modest Geniustalk15:05, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support Article quality appears adequate and much improved from the concerns expressed by the Bestagon above. The loss of a naval ship of this size is highly unusual. -
Ad Orientem (
talk)
15:39, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support. A rare and noteworthy ship accident involving the Royal Thai Navy that has been making rounds in world news in the past few hours (the last sinking to occur to their navy was 77 years ago). The article has also been updated, and upon checking, I did not see any sourcing issues.
Vida0007 (
talk)
16:19, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Oppose the current Blurb is bad and American biased, we are talking about the biggest sports tournament in the world not a small event that end with a "conclusion" as if no one is interested in it. --
Ibrahim.ID ✪19:22, 18 December 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Ks0stm: yes I think the alternative blurb is good and neutral, but I suggest the change (FIFA World Cup in Qatar) to (2022 FIFA World Cup) that the most common name.
Ibrahim.ID ✪19:34, 18 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment - I've gone ahead and added a very basic match report (the same one I put together for the main page), which needs expansion and a bit of TLC over-time. Feel free to expand with a bit more info, as previous events have very well written and extensive match reports. Lee Vilenski(
talk •
contribs)19:36, 18 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I see the cited prose match summary in the finals article. The proposed blurb is standard we are using for sport events for tournaments. Ready to post or am I missing anything? --Tone19:36, 18 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support Article now looks better than it was a few minutes ago, as the details of this (historic) match have already been written in the target article. No sourcing issues too.
Vida0007 (
talk)
19:49, 18 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I think adding "in a shoot-out" would be worth it, and says enough. Especially given the rarity of such an event in the final.
Nfitz (
talk)
00:24, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
It's not really about how rare it is, rather it's about how notable it is within the context of the whole match. It is quite an important and notable detail that it went to a penalty shootout and that the match wasn't concluded in regular playing time.
Gazozlu (
talk)
12:14, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
It's not about the actual score, its about the fact that they were 'evenly matched' and the game had to go to penalties in order to force a winner. It's quite different than if Argentina won by actual goals.
Gazozlu (
talk)
21:45, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Sure, that's just a detail though. Some matches are close, others are not close, we only generally say who the winner was though, no other editorialising. —
Amakuru (
talk)
22:16, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
So if I'm getting this right, you want the blurb to be "In association football, the FIFA World Cup concludes with Argentina defeating France in the final in a shootout after the game ended 3-3 AET, despite a hat trick from Kylian Mbappe, while Croatia defeats Morocco, the first African team to reach the semifinals, in third place." Sounds really succinct. --
Kicking222 (
talk)
22:55, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
That is not how you make it succinct. Rather it should include enough information to give a correct picture of the event.
Because the articles should be relatively fresh or expanded, the statement "Morocco being the first African country to reach the WC semis" would be perfect DYK material. But's not groundbreaking news, hence why not ITN.
Masem (
t)
13:11, 20 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Feel free to nominate a blurb. But FWIW I won't support. IMO the winner of the World Cup gets all the marbles and a mention on Wikipedia's main page. The various runners up get a set of steak knives and a T shirt. -
Ad Orientem (
talk)
15:58, 20 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Probably
Morocco national football team or
2022 FIFA World Cup. But DYK has different eligibility criteria. Recent events don't make an article eligible for DYK, there are other requirements such as: the article has be be newly written, or has to have been expanded 5 times in size, or has to have recently been promoted to "Good Article" status.
Gazozlu (
talk)
22:09, 20 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment This might be better in the article about the tunnel itself, since several incidents have happened in it before and are documented there. I can't see much extensive coverage of this type of disaster coming out of Afghanistan to expand the separate article on its own. --
Masem (
t)
02:40, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Wildlife presenter
Hamza Yassin and his professional partner
Jowita Przystal win the coveted glitterball trophy despite a few mistakes and landing in the bottom of the leaderboard.
(BBC News)
Uzbekistan announces a nearly
$1 billion loan from the two main
World Bank lending institutions, aimed at supporting the country's transition to a
private sector-led economy.
(Xinhua)
CroatiadefeatsMorocco 2–1 in the third place play-off. This is Croatia's second third-place finish, and Morocco's best ever result at a
World Cup, which is also the best ever result by both an
African and
Arab team at the tournament.
(CNN)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Comment: With more obits released, there may be more citable materials from WP:RS to add to this stubby wikibio and grow it into a start-class article.--
PFHLai (
talk)
18:46, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Wild mountain lion that lived in Griffith Park, Los Angeles, and became something of a local fixture. Captured this week and euthanized due to health issues. Article is detailed, well referenced, and updated with P-22's death.
Ackatsis (
talk)
19:55, 17 December 2022 (UTC)reply
One or both nominated events are listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Support altblurb Change of government has been periodically posted here (the most recent was the
2022 Swiss Federal Council election I think), and the main target articles (Leo Varadkar and Government of the 33rd Dáil) look good too; hence, I do not see any problem with this, although the altblurb looks (and sounds) better.
Vida0007 (
talk)
09:30, 18 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Needs work The
target article just has a single sentence. There's nothing about the significance of the change for policies and personnel. Is he bringing a new team of staff with him? Cabinet changes? Official residence? Foreign reactions? Nothing.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
10:33, 18 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support with 33rd gov't as the target. As Varadkar's article already covered the agreement, an update to his BLP significant enough to satisfy ITNCRIT would surely violate BALANCE. GreatCaesarsGhost14:33, 18 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support both articles as target in principle, haven't really looked at either for quality. To GCG's point, Varadkar needs (IMO, anyway) to be a target article since he's the new head of government, intra-article balance notwithstanding. The 33rd government article is also a viable target given that's where the unusual "rotation" aspect comes from. –
John M Wolfson (
talk •
contribs)
05:44, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support but I'll ask again what I asked on the talk page a while back. Why isn't the name of the article "Prime Minister of Ireland?" We don't usually have the name of the head of government in a language other than English for other countries.
Sir Joseph(talk)02:25, 20 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks Spencer. Seems like the only update one can say is that LV was appointed the Taoiseach, which seems to be there. That said, @
PrecariousWorlds are you able to edit to add a few details?
Ktin (
talk)
00:45, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The
AquaDom aquarium in
Berlin,
Germany, home to 1,500
tropical fish of more than 100 different species, bursts, flooding local streets. The majority of the fish die during the incident, and two people are injured.
(BBC News)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Weak support Borderline minimal standards in terms of depth of coverage, but sounds like a sudden death before the bulk of his playing career could occur. SpencerT•C23:10, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Maybe this is my wishful thinking, but I'm hoping that the cause of death may become available while this nom is still eligible, providing materials for an additional sentence or two to grow this short wikibio more firmly into a start-class article. --
PFHLai (
talk)
22:37, 22 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: An unusual nomination; both the linked articles are high quality featured articles, and the number of page views on the main article has shot up by over 30,000 per day since the announcement, indicating substantial reader interest.
Hawkeye7(discuss)05:30, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Weak oppose I feel this is a "bygones-be-bygones" situation notwithstanding the readership increase (though I do wonder how this affects Teller's reputation). This is about a tenth of the importance of, say, the JFK assassination, much less 9/11 or COVID, so I don't know if analogies to revelations about those events decades from now would be useful. –
John M Wolfson (
talk •
contribs)
05:39, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose – Love our beautiful Manhattan Project articles of course, but this just being a one-line update makes this a no-go news story for me. If a more in-depth analysis was released alongside this and used to update the article, I might feel differently. It doesn't feel particularly major news either. ~
Maplestrip/Mable (
chat)
09:07, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Filipino activist and founder of the Communist Party of the Philippines who died yesterday in the Netherlands but his demise was only announced today. There is still some work to do on some sections (six {cn} tags remain) but I believe this is RD worthy.
Vida0007 (
talk)
08:26, 17 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support ALT Tragedy doesn't just have to be at the human-scale. The article is updated, though it needs expansion to be holistic, but it seems overall fine for our purposes. I've added an ALT which I think works better.
Curbon7 (
talk)
18:17, 16 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose on article quality; would support if the article were in better shape. Article is currently too light on details and history of the structure, which leads to a
WP:UNDUE problem that unnecessarily focuses too much of the text on the recent news. Furthermore, for such a short article, too much of the key information is uncited. Really needs a lot of work. If we had a good article, this has been in the news at the level where it would be appropriate for ITN, though. --
Jayron3219:15, 16 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The BBC headlined this as an explosion. The word "rupture" is another option but I don't think they know yet what failed first and how.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
08:56, 17 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose Loss on an interesting item but does not have a severe effect on the world at large (for example, if it were an aquarium used for scientific study, that might be different and comparable to the loss of Arecibo) --
Masem (
t)
20:57, 16 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support - There continues to be this mistaken assumption that items need to be globally significant to be posted. But this is not so. 🌈WaltCip-(
talk)02:42, 17 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support Actually seems to have gotten global news media attention; maybe because of the World Cup coming to an end and things generally slowing down with end-of-year holidays and the winter solstice coming up. Maybe it gives us the chance to pretend, briefly, that we live in a world where this is one of the worst things that can happen.
Daniel Case (
talk)
04:12, 17 December 2022 (UTC)reply
support. i think using "explosion" is fine; earwitnesses describe being awoken by a loud bang. the quality of the article appears sufficient now, although i am a little wary of how the disney and dubai incidents are mentioned, as i believe those were leaks rather than catastrophic failures, while the current wording may suggest otherwise. also, i believe the aquarium in dubai is not the world's largest; the mall it is in was the world's largest mall (by total land area) at the time.
dying (
talk)
05:58, 17 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support. Very rare event which has since received global coverage. The rupture/explosion section could still be expanded, but the article in general looks good to me.
Vida0007 (
talk)
08:30, 17 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support. Posting items like this would represent a sea change (pun intended) in how ITN operates. But I think it would be a good change. What would actually be lost in posting this? It's an event, in the news, well-covered by an article. We often get long periods where no event meets our strict importance criteria for inclusion, resulting in the front-page ITN section looking embarassingly out of date. --
LukeSurltc13:55, 17 December 2022 (UTC)reply
We are not a news ticker, so we shouldn't care about the ITN box being seemingly out of date - we can't make news happen and should not be weakening our standards for inclusion for an arbitrary "freshness" reason. There's a reason we are more focused on stories with large and/or long-reaching effects, that things that are temporary curiousities.
Masem (
t)
17:40, 17 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose This isn’t a major aquarium. Story has no long term significance. Posting this would encourage more clickbait news stories to be nominated and posted.
Thriley (
talk)
15:29, 17 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support because not only a lot of exotic fish have died but this was a tourist attraction and the news seems to have made the world, one source also claims two humans were injured in the burst, there's also no saying if they will rebuild it this early on.
OGWFP (
talk)
20:46, 17 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose. I think it's worth noting that the article itself notes that this is not the first time a major rupture has occurred in an aquarium of this type, and the article itself is at least 50% composed of prose regarding the failure, with little note about the impact and significance of the aquarium besides that it at one point in time held the record for being the tallest aquarium of it's type (with no note made to suggest whether or not it held the record until it ruptured).
DarkSide830 (
talk)
00:22, 18 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The story is not especially tabloid in nature as it has been reported by numerous respectable sources such as the BBC and NYT.
We are currently blurbing other explosions and structural failures which seem similar in scale
Those other articles such as the
landslide and
explosion are 100% about those incidents. If the place in question already had an article so that the content about the event is at the 50% level then this demonstrates that the structure was more notable, not less.
So, my impression that that the rhetoric is just for show and it's really just personal opinion – classic IDONTLIKEIT. That's the trouble with ITN – it's just a
forum for opinions about the news rather than an objective process.
Anyway, the good news is that this article has been crushing the posted blurbs when it comes to actual readership. See
stats. ITN gatekeeping fails again.
Your "analysis" cherry picks facts to suit your argument - like omitting the factor of human fatalities! Please just state your case without insulting the other editors. GreatCaesarsGhost14:18, 18 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Remember that news sources are trying to fill 24/7 coverage, so just because there's wide coverage of it doesn't mean it has the legs for an enduring story required by NEVENT. That's why we tend to post news that has more concrete impacts.
Masem (
t)
02:42, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support Would consider this notable because the aquarium itself had an article that existed prior to its explosion; good quality article. SpencerT•C21:12, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Unusual and unfortunate event but lacks wider significance. The aquarium was purely decorative and its failure only hurt fish (and the hotel's bank balance). This would make a good DYK blurb and is close to the 5 times expansion needed to qualify there.
Modest Geniustalk12:23, 20 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Oppose for now A warrior in two different ways, and I share the grief being felt in Serbia and Italy today, but this is an unusual article in that it's immensely long, and it's well-sourced in some areas but swathes of unsourced in others. Perhaps the historical editors only wanted to edit the parts about their favourite clubs.
Unknown Temptation (
talk)
22:10, 16 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: 16 dead, 17 missing, with 60 rescued. The landslide occurred around 12 hours ago, and prospects of any survivors are very low, given how most rescued personnel were found within 4-5 hours. Significant loss of life in a tragic event. Even though Malaysia is prone to landslides and floods, the death toll involved is rare. It's the deadliest landslide in Malaysia since 1996 (Kampar, 44 dead), and the third deadliest of all time for the country. (Right now: 19 killed, 14 missing)
gavre (al. PenangLion) (
talk)
07:26, 16 December 2022 (UTC)reply
It just depends on volunteer activity, if those subjects have articles which meet the quality standards and get supported by the community then it gets posted. -
Indefensible (
talk)
17:29, 18 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Police in
Zambia arrest a truck driver alleged to have transported 27
Ethiopian migrants who were found dead at a farm on the outskirts of
Lusaka on Sunday.
(Xinhua)
Twittersuspends the accounts of several journalists who reported on negative news relating to
Elon Musk and Twitter. Musk accuses these journalists of posting links to real-time location data. The suspensions follow an incident in
Los Angeles involving the safety of
Elon Musk's son.
(The Guardian)(Al Jazeera)(Yahoo!)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: Recognizing that ITN has recently been pretty saturated with news about Peru, this event seems extremely notable. The army of a nation is rarely seen brazenly using
live ammunition against protesters in the open like this. This event will probably continue to develop as the
regional hospital overflowed in Ayacucho and triage units are being established.
WMrapids (
talk)
08:58, 16 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I also have the same stance with Genevieve on this: support once the cn tag is gone. This is a major (and tragic) news from Peru after all, and is very worthy for ITN. As for the Ongoing item, remove that only if this particular article gets blurbed. By the way, I moved this to December 15 as it occurred on that day.
Vida0007 (
talk)
12:00, 16 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose This is the purpose of ongoing, and proves why it was a good idea of adding it to ongoing. The issue is that it is a slippery slope: if we post this in tandem with ongoing, then what about if there is (god forbid) another massacre, and another, in the same way we don't every horrible event in the war in Ukraine.
Curbon7 (
talk)
16:56, 16 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose under this title until it is confirmed that reliable sources do predominantly call this a "massacre"; this is a very loaded term and implies intentional mass murder, which does not appear clear from the article and the sources. Sandstein 20:10, 16 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose Terrible event, but had been covered in Ongoing. I also have some concerns as well regarding the article which don't look quite adhering to
WP:NPOV to me, even as I oppose the ousting of Pedro Castillo.
MarioJump83 (
talk)
01:12, 17 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Members of parliament belonging to the
Armenian governing coalition accuse
Russia of wanting to drag Armenia into a new war with neighboring
Azerbaijan, and criticize the conduct of
Russian peacekeepers amid a renewed crisis in the region following the
Lachin blockade and worsening relations between Armenia and Russia.
(RFE/RL)
Kosovo formally signs a request to become a member of the
European Union.
Serbia condemns the request and says that it will ask the five members of the bloc which
do not recognize Kosovo to reject the request.
(AP)
The defending champions
FrancedefeatsMorocco 2–0, advancing to their second consecutive
World Cup final, which will be against
Argentina. France is the first team since
Brazil in
2002 to advance to consecutive World Cup finals, and will aim to become the first team since Brazil in
1962 to win consecutive World Cup finals.
(CNN)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
A drive-by comment: It seems a bit odd to see degrees received after the age of 50 in the "Early life and education" section. Perhaps in the wrong section? Wrong year? Wrong degree? --
PFHLai (
talk)
11:55, 17 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Those are honorary degrees based on a reputable career, early life and education are combined; article is a bit short but I guess it makes sense in my opinion. -
Indefensible (
talk)
17:06, 17 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: The article about the prize is little more than a list of awardees, so I don't know if another article would be suitable, but I wanted to at least bring this up for discussion as an ITNR item.
331dot (
talk)
00:59, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Neutral – This feels extremely barebones. I find myself wondering if the article should even be a Featured List, as it doesn't go into much detail about the prize and its history. More importantly for ITN, it's only a one-line update, so we wouldn't be directing readers to any further information about this news item. That all being said, I don't know if I could reasonably oppose a FL ITN/R item being posted, so... I just refrain from !voting at all? ~
Maplestrip/Mable (
chat)
08:22, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose per all the above including the supports. ITN/R means significance is assumed; it does not mean there is an imperative to post. An update to either article substantial enough to meet WP:ITNCRIT would likely cause WP:BALANCE issues. Maybe we can thread that needle, but I doubt it. GreatCaesarsGhost12:52, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Agree on the Oppose here. The past, we've generally used the winner's article for this, as the prize itself is just a listing. The problem is that being given the Ukraine people fighting back against Russia doesn't give us a nice article target for that. If there is a decent target article that is focused on the Ukraine's resistance to Russia that is also in good shape, that might help. --
Masem (
t)
13:21, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Stale. This was announced on 19 October
[42][43]. There was a additional ceremony yesterday, but the actual award is old news. Besides, the nominated article is just a list - there needs to be a prose update somewhere.
Modest Geniustalk13:55, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: Nominated this after the issue was brought up down below. I feel we need to have a consensus on whether or not this qualifies for ongoing before we can post the Peru protests.
PrecariousWorlds (
talk)
16:18, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose We cannot be including all the protests that are currently going on in the world in Ongoing. They are commonplace and this one doesn’t seem to have an exceptionality beyond what the protests imply.
_-_Alsor (
talk)
16:27, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Despite nominating this, I actually agree. The only reason why I decided to make this post was because it was brought up below, and I think it's good to get a consensus on this issue.
PrecariousWorlds (
talk)
20:09, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
This entry should be closed if the nomination was never serious, as noted earlier the comparison is not apples-to-apples with the Peruvian article. You should open a section on the project talk page if you want to discuss policy. -
Indefensible (
talk)
22:28, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose, for now. Bolsanaro has conceded, the election results have been officially ratified by the courts, and it doesn't look like the protests aren't really growing. In particular, the "Timeline" section in the article is currently quite thin and does not justify an ongoing posting. If something more substantial develops on the grounds, the issue can be revisited.
Nsk92 (
talk)
16:45, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose. The three last updates to the article cover events that happened on 7 November, 15 November, and 12 December. With less than one worthwhile thing happening per week, this isn't really being updated at a level that demonstrates that it qualifies as an ongoing item for the main page. --
Jayron3218:20, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
This nomination was made for comparison with the
December 2022 Peruvian protests, but discussions on policy should generally be done on the talk page. As Jayron32 noted above, there is currently a difference in article quality so the nominations are not apples-to-apples. However, a possible solution is to blurb this similar to the
January 6 United States Capitol attack for the storming of the federal police HQ if article quality reaches the blurb requirements, and posting the Peruvian entry to ongoing, so there would be no conflict between them. -
Indefensible (
talk)
18:29, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose for now. Updates seem to have slowed down. If the article can be maintained with more frequent updates than maybe this could be posted.
DarkSide830 (
talk)
18:44, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose for now - This is still an unfolding situation, but there's a good chance it will unfold into a damp squib. That said, we should keep an eye on it.
GenevieveDEon (
talk)
11:10, 16 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose Bolsonaro conceded and protests are dying down at this point. This doesn't rise to the level of Peru or even Stop the Steal.
Curbon7 (
talk)
17:00, 16 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
(Posted) Ongoing: Peruvian protests & political crisis
It was only a comment, and neutral at that. The essay you linked also reads: While these comparisons are not a conclusive test, they may form part of a cogent argument; an entire comment should not be dismissed because it includes a comparative statement like this. —
Bagumba (
talk)
00:55, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support Article is in decent shape, seems to be being actively updated, most recent events covered by the article are less than 48 hours old. Looks to check all of the boxed. --
Jayron3215:47, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Mixed - I feel like for this to be in ongoing, we also need to address other protests going on, like the Brazilian election which Bagumba brought up. Not too sure if I'm perfectly honest.
PrecariousWorlds (
talk)
16:14, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose We cannot be including all the protests that are currently going on in the world in Ongoing. They are commonplace and this one doesn’t seem to have an exceptionality beyond what the protests imply.
_-_Alsor (
talk)
16:27, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support, posting something, although the header would probably need to be reworded. The main underlying event here is an ongoing Peruvian constitutional crisis, which is much bigger than the protests.
Nsk92 (
talk)
17:20, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment this is the third protest in Peru over the past year. Thus seems like a case where protests happen at a drop of a hat, and we'd need a strong reason to post one over the other. --
Masem (
t)
17:39, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
A good metric to use to decide if something is worth posting is that there is evidence, as can be found in reliable sources, that it is significant, given the amount of attention that reliable sources give to it. If we did anything other than that, then we're all just using our own, very narrow, individual perspective, which isn't that great of a way to operate when dealing with a website designed to be used all over the world. Instead of making the decision based only on what we think (which is mostly based on what we may personally care about or what we are exposed to in each of our own very tiny corners of the world), instead we should strive to assess these things by looking at reliable sources and assessing whether or not the topic is being covered or not. I live no where near Peru, and I have no vested interest in what goes on there, so my own personal feelings would necessarily skew towards not thinking this was significant. I am not a reliable source, however. I can assess whether this is a major news event by seeing what major news sources are doing. --
Jayron3218:17, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Or to add why we do not use frequency of coverage of a story or where the story is published (like front page verse elsewhere) as metrics for UTN consideration.
Masem (
t)
19:15, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
But conversely the subject may be encyclopedic and notable enough for visibility, what may need to change is Wikipedia's format and space for such coverage rather than imposing artificial limitations, as well as potential debiasing in the community which prevents such entries from being included. -
Indefensible (
talk)
19:19, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Of course, many forget that we are not a newspaper, and our coverage of news should be after the point a news event is clearly going to have an enduring impact. We have far too many articles being created on breaking news without consideration of long term factors.
Masem (
t)
21:52, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Why should my consideration make a difference? What I "consider" is based on my own very narrow view of the world. Wikipedia does not operate on personal "considerations" it operates on evidence. My "consideration" is not evidence. It's just my own feelings. It has no bearing on what should or should not happen. --
Jayron3219:24, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support. Still very much in the news, fairly big, and tensions are still high. I think these protests are significant above the level that most protests are and thus worthy of posting.
DarkSide830 (
talk)
18:42, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support Things are becoming notably more severe as a national state of emergency was declared and some constitutional rights of an entire nation have been removed.--
WMrapids (
talk)
01:32, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The
Lachin corridor, the only link between
Armenia and the unrecognized
Republic of Artsakh, is blocked by a group of
Azerbaijani citizens described as
environmental activists by state media. The protesters say that they are calling attention to what Azerbaijan says is illegal mining in
Nagorno-Karabakh as well as the use of the road to transport the minerals to Armenia. The protesters' action leaves hundreds of Karabakh cars stranded on other sections of the highway.
(RFE/RL)
ArgentinadefeatsCroatia 3–0 and advances to the
final, where they will play against
France. It is Argentina's sixth appearance in the World Cup final and their first appearance since
2014.
(CNN)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Comment As mentioned by Black Kite, the filmography and awards sections need references. As for the prose though, that already looks good. I have also moved this to December 13 because like Adrian Shooter below, he actually died on the 13th but was only reported today (14th).
Vida0007 (
talk)
18:51, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Update: Changing my stance to support as the sourcing issues have been addressed. RIP to him, what a huge loss to the entertainment industry.
Vida0007 (
talk)
09:49, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment: I was doing random spot checks on the footnotes and encountered sourcing issues multiple times. I have attempted to fix what I found and added a few {cn} tags (may need more?). Perhaps this wikibio could use more thorough vetting by someone familiar with the subject before the wikilink goes on MainPage. --
PFHLai (
talk)
00:21, 16 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I returned to this wikibio to continue with the random spot checks of REFs and ran into more problematic footnotes on my first two random spots. I have put in new {fv} and {cspan} tags at the two spots. I'm not sure if I want to continue. --
PFHLai (
talk)
12:35, 17 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: British railway executive, died on 13th but first reported today (14th). Article is a bit proseliney in places, but it's being improved.
Thryduulf (
talk)
14:24, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Governor of Puebla, Mexico. Page has been expanded about 4x but could use a bit more. At least this is vaguely Main Page-ready.
Sammi Brie (she/her •
t •
c)
04:21, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Not opposing but… It would be useful to know more about what he did as governor. Too little is narrated about his gubernatorial career. There is almost more about his death and succession. It doesn’t seem to me to be a suitable article for MP at this time.
_-_Alsor (
talk)
10:44, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I'd love to find more myself. Lots of articles are being written about his death, but there are no critical appraisals of the state administration. (For a few reasons, cultural and probably coziness with the state government's ad budget.)
Sammi Brie (she/her •
t •
c)
18:11, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Two police officers and a civilian are killed and two other officers are injured when gunmen open fire at a remote property in
Wieambilla,
Queensland,
Australia, where police were investigating a missing person report. The three perpetrators are later killed by police.
(BBC News)(ABC News Australia)
Politics and elections
All members of
Belgium's Political Bureau of the
Walloon Parliament resign after a scandal concerning excessive public spending by parliamentary clerk Frédéric Janssens. Bureau President
Jean-Claude Marcourt, who had been criticized for taking part in a luxury 3-day trip to
Dubai for
€20,000 using public funds, had previously refused to be the only person to resign if all other members of the Bureau did not resign.
(RTBF)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The deletion discussion seems to be heading to a speedy keep, so I'm sure that won't be an issue here. I am seeing that this subject hasn't been covered yet by any of the major sources we tend to expect here. I don't know what the lack of western-European or American coverage means for this item. If it's covered more in non-Caucasus-related publications, that would make it a much more comfortable item for our ITN. ~
Maplestrip/Mable (
chat)
Tentative support - Informally, I'm seeing Anglophone journalists familiar with the situation describing this as very signficant and not getting the attention that it arguably deserves in English-language media. Unfortunately, I don't speak a word of any of the relevant languages, so I haven't been able to find appropriate sources. In my view, both the article and this nomination urgently need expert attention, which I am unable to provide.
GenevieveDEon (
talk)
11:12, 16 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment An AfD nomination for this currently exists, but it seems that the building consensus on that nomination is to keep the article. As for the Artsakh blockade article itself, I have seen no sourcing issues even if the prose looks a bit short to me.
Vida0007 (
talk)
12:07, 16 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Tentative Support The AfD has since been closed as a
WP:SNOW keep. This is arguably the most significant escalation in the region since the 2020 conflict. With that said, I cannot
WP:V some of the sources as I know very little about the Armenian media landscape (and do not myself speak Armenian). It is hard to tell what is a
WP:RS due to my lack of familiarity, so I feel uncomfortable with a full fledged !support. If someone with more expertise in the region can confirm the reliability of some of the sources or can provide known
WP:RS to cover it, I would fully support posting it.
TartarTorte20:29, 16 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment: Are there any updates to the story? Sounds like gas access is restored, and Azerbaijan is reporting that traffic has been restored (unclear if true but there doesn't seem to be an indication in the article that this claim is contested). SpencerT•C21:07, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Filmography is unsourced. The "Other" section is orange-tagged for {one source}. There are also 10+ {cn} across the rest of the prose. Please add more REFs. --
PFHLai (
talk)
06:32, 18 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Two sections (Coaching tree & Achievements) are orange-tagged for lack of citations. Two sections (2021 & 2022 seasons) are orange-tagged for lack of materials. There are also a handful of {cn} tags in the prose above the two empty sections. --
PFHLai (
talk)
06:26, 18 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Oppose ice-cold case. Great for his family to get closure if they're still alive, but otherwise it's a singular murder case from the 1960s.
Juxlos (
talk)
00:53, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose per Juxlos. Outside of maybe an identification of the Zodiac Killer or Jack the Ripper, I don't see any cold case as being worthy of ITN.
DarkSide830 (
talk)
00:55, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Support great article. Also there is a cracking photo of him in astronaut gear, I'm in no way suggesting a blurb, but just a photo maybe worth considering? Added image to nomination.
Abcmaxx (
talk)
06:51, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article:Pan Am Flight 103 (
talk·history·tag) Blurb: Suspected bomber of
Pan Am Flight 103, Abu Agila Mohammad Masud, is in US custody after being kidnapped in Libya by a militia group. (
Post) Alternative blurb: Suspected
Lockerbie bomber Abu Agila Mohammad Masud is in US custody after being kidnapped by a militia in Libya. News source(s):BBC,
NPR Credits:
Wait We typically post convictions, not arrests. But if he is in fact convicted, and assuming article quality is up to scratch, I'd likely support. -
Ad Orientem (
talk)
19:44, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose We may post the sentencing, I think that would be of ITN interest, but not arrest. And especially not this one, which doesn't feel all too important to me: the incident was a long time ago; it's not like this arrest reveals a suspect, just means he's been found; and he is accused of manufacturing the bomb, i.e. one of many involved in the conspiracy, not the sole perpetrator. Wasn't there one Lockerbie bomber who has already been found guilty, served his sentence, been released, and died, in the years since it happened.
Kingsif (
talk)
13:26, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Needs work The wave of arrests seems similar to the German plot which we are currently blurbing. But we need an article about the corruption scandal rather than a focus on particular BLPs.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
10:40, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment I'd perhaps support this if a clear link is made to the FIFA World Cup or anything else achieved through corruption. Otherwise, an MEP accused for corruption without further details isn't plausible enough.--
Kiril Simeonovski (
talk)
10:49, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
"Italian MEP Dino Giarrusso said he and many other legislators in Brussels had been approached by Qatari officials numerous times since 2019. “They were hoping to improve the country’s reputation especially in the run-up to the Fifa World Cup”"
FTAndrew🐉(
talk)
12:39, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Tentative support - But it needs a better blurb. 'Accused for corruption charges' is not idiomatic English; if the arrests are the substantive legal action, they should be the focus.
GenevieveDEon (
talk)
12:54, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
WP:BLP? - While I think the topic is certainly ITN blurb worthy, have we suddenly forgotten there's some almighty big BLP issue here. Accusation, arrest, and charges are not conviction. Since when do we post someone's being accused of a crime on the main page when there's not even been a trial yet?!? --
KTC (
talk)
14:06, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The German plot was just posted on the basis of arrests rather than convictions. To minimise BLP issues, we can blurb such mass arrests in a general way rather than naming names.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
14:22, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose a rather run-of-the-mill corruption scheme versus a (albeit ludicrous) plot to overthrow the German government doesn't seem comparable in my opinion. But even if this is posted, as mentioned above, remove the name(s) from the blurb to avoid BLP issues.
YD407OTZ (
talk)
16:09, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Weak support article is in OK shape and the news is covering this. Oppose current blurb as a trainwreck, however, someone is going to have to do better than that! --
Jayron3217:09, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I agree a better blurb can be found. Events are evolving quickly though. In a few hours we had a new article and in a few more probably also a new name. Something like: A Vice President of the Parliament was dismissed and arrested after bags full of cash were found in her apartment. We don't know though with certainty how much it was.
Support, however oppose blurb Article seems to be in solid shape and being improved compared to when I read it a couple hours ago. I have to say though, the current blurb seems really clunky, so on that front, we should have a better one.
TheBlueSkyClub (
talk)
18:47, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
'Weak Oppose' It's a high profile case, so this is a close call. But our normal practice is to post convictions vice arrests. That said I can understand the argument for posting given who we are talking about and if TFG is ever indicted, I'd probably support. -
Ad Orientem (
talk)
19:48, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
When there are mass arrests of multiple high-profile people by multiple authorities, as in this case, then the trials are unlikely to conclude in a simultaneous and tidy way. This is therefore our only opportunity.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
20:10, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The issue is more that there are heavy indications that there existed corruption in the European Parliament. That a president of the EU parliament has to come back from vacations to personally observe a raid on the vice-president in which bags full of cash were found...Corruption in the highest levels in the EU parliament is the issue, the arrests are just a by-product.
Paradise Chronicle (
talk)
11:55, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support. Several members of the European Parliament being arrested for corruption for reasons involving alleged bribery by a sovereign state is something of international importance. The article quality is fine enough to post at the moment. — Red-tailed hawk(nest)17:48, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support The sheer breadth of the scandal warrants inclusion with both the number of implicated parties and geographical interest. It is by far the biggest political news from European Politics since 1992. I would strongly support the inclusion of the article on the scandal and not support the article specifically relating to Kaili.
Jo Jc JoTalk💬Edits📝 — Preceding
undated comment added
00:25, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Don't pull - The 'convictions only' rule (which is an informal guideline at best) is generally used to oppose proposals to post the beginnings of specific individuals' trials. Mass arrests and the like certainly do get posted - we posted the German coup plot arrests, to take a very recent example.
GenevieveDEon (
talk)
10:52, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I have to agree with this argument. A mass arrest of political figures is independently important. Seeing as we're not even listing any names in the blurb or lede section of the article, the BLP issues aren't the same as for "[celebrity] was arrested for [sexual misconduct]"-style news stories (for example). ~
Maplestrip/Mable (
chat)
08:43, 16 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: Being called a breakthrough / the "holy grail" by RS, with the U.S. secretary of energy set to make an announcement on Tuesday.
Davey2116 (
talk)
05:01, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Pre-announcement comments
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Wait They are said to be announcing this week/tomorrow, which appears to include the publication of a peer-reviewed paper that supports this. We do want to make sure that there is a peer-reviewed source behind this, as that's what we'll need to properly update the article. --
Masem (
t)
05:03, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose Look at this wording in the article.... "Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory's National Ignition Facility had achieved a net energy gain from a fusion reaction, according to three unnamed sources with alleged knowledge of experiments conducted there". (My bolding.) That's simply not good enough for a topic as controversial as this one.
HiLo48 (
talk)
06:11, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose This is obviously not the first net-gain nuclear fusion reaction as H-bombs achieved this in a big way years ago. Anyway, there was some reporting from the
National Ignition Facility in early November – see
[49];
[50]. If that's what's being talked about then it's stale.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
08:34, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I guess you could technically charge a battery with a nuclear blast, but 1) I would rather doubt that anyone has ever gotten much usable energy out of a nuclear blast, and 2) that's a silly comparison :p ~
Maplestrip/Mable (
chat)
09:05, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
An H-bomb usually uses a focused A-bomb to compress a capsule and cause it to ignite. The Livermore experiments now use hundreds of lasers but it's much the same idea. Use of H-bombs for power generation and other civilian purposes was explored years ago – see
Peaceful nuclear explosion,
Project PACER and
Project Gnome. So, the fundamental science has been done. It's now a matter of practical engineering and economics. Don't hold your breath...
Andrew🐉(
talk)
09:20, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Wait per Masem's comment above. I support blurbing this one but the official announcement (including the peer-reviewed paper) should be released first.
Vida0007 (
talk)
12:04, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Wait and add of course. I wanted to add this suggestion myself. Per Masem, the blurb needs to be backed up by a relevant piece in the article, which should be backed up by a suitable source. --
Ouro (
blah blah) 12:20, 12 December 2022 (UTC) Changing to add as the breakthrough was announced during the press conference. --
Ouro (
blah blah)
15:47, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
(Posted) Post-announcement comments
The
NIF preamplifiers which condition and shape the laser pulse used to ignite a fusion reaction
Nominator's comments: Major US department announcement, global top-tier media coverage ☆ Bri (
talk)
I'm late to this but Financial Times appears to have broken it, The New York Times has repeated the story, and both Politico and CNN may have independently confirmed from other sources now. I've added sources to
National Ignition Facility for inspection. ☆ Bri (
talk)
01:49, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I think we ought to consider this item reopened. Most of the people who participated at this ITN were asking to wait, rather than opposing outright, contrary to Kiril's closure rationale. --🌈WaltCip-(
talk)12:32, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
My closure rationale was "no consensus to post at this time", which clearly reflects the pile-up of wait votes, not that there was any outright opposition. I had it in mind that the nomination should be re-opened and just wanted to prevent an overflow of further wait votes.--
Kiril Simeonovski (
talk)
15:15, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Update: there's now been an official announcement, but still no paper (peer-reviewed or otherwise). I'm kinda torn on this - it's big news if true, but a peer-reviewed paper should be the bare minimum to consider a science story. I wonder if the leak forced them to make a premature announcement before the paper is ready... I'm still inclined to wait until the evidence is presented to the scientific community in a peer-reviewed paper.
Modest Geniustalk19:30, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Now Oppose. Here is the presser from DOE
[56]. The experiment they are raving on about took place only on Dec 5, and there is no sign of a peer review paper or collaboration. I do not expect the national labs to be faking their result but we really do need a paper with peer review to affirm. --
Masem (
t)
15:25, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
im sorry, but why do we need a peer review paper for a world shattering news announcement? yes, we need peer review to confirm the science of this. it may well be false. but the CLAIM is highly notable, esp. since we are way past the dark days when everyone would just make wild claims about fusion. this is real science now. the announcement itself is highly notable.
50.193.19.66 (
talk)
17:04, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
There hasn't been replication if the results, nor other confirmations expected fir such a significant result. News media are not scientific experts.
Masem (
t)
17:50, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment At the initial phase of the press event DoE said outside experts evaluated the results, which is part of the reason to delay till today for announcing the December 5 experiment. Not sure who exactly it was doing the review. Probably more coming at the panel discussion. ☆ Bri (
talk)
15:39, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Strong support as a groundbreaking scientific breakthrough, which is Wikipedia and ITN's
wheelhouse, plus the topic's coverage in front-page stories from some of the largest news outlets in the world. That ought to be enough for a section titled "in the news" and not "in the scientific literature".
Ed[talk][majestic titan]15:52, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
It doesn't seem to be ground-breaking as, per the PR, they've been working on this approach for 60 years. Getting to break-even point isn't a big achievement as every existing power system does better than that -- just use a match to light a pile of sticks, for example. What's needed for success is that the
TCO is better than rival systems. This is why H-bomb fusion power was not pursued – see
Project PACER.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
16:33, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Moreover, from what's being said, it seems that the claim of break-even is just based on the laser energy hitting the target. It actually takes a lot more energy to power the lasers than you get out and so this is phoney accounting.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
17:28, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
According to
Anatomy of a NIF shot, it takes 400 million joules of electrical energy to deliver 2 million joules of laser energy to the target. You then get about 2.5 million joules back from the fusion. So, spend 400 million to get 2.5 million. Do the math.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
18:55, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Rome wasn't built in a day. Okay I checked they aren't diode lasers but if LEDs keep getting x times better every decade give it a few decades. Remember how big, dim and red they were in the 1970s or 80s and now they're efficient and bright enough for streetlights and artificial sunlight and small and cheap enough to fit tens of millions on a smartphone and come in all colors from UV to infrared?
Sagittarian Milky Way (
talk)
21:35, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose The DoE press-release is quite nauseating in that it credits a long list of politicians and administrators but doesn't name the scientists and technicians who actually devised and conducted the experiment in question. And, as it's just a glory-stealing bit of PR with no independent confirmation, it's not a reliable source.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
16:06, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The news media is not reliable when it's just recycling a press-release. See
churnalism and
WP:PRSOURCE. As for this discussion, this seems to be a formal part II in which we respond to the further details, such as they are.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
16:37, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
It has been.standard practice for us at ITN to make sure a scientific breakthrough is accompanied by a peer review publication to assure there is some oversight of the science. A massive press conference and news cover does not make up for that.
Masem (
t)
16:42, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
we wont get full independent confirmation, as details of the techniques are highly classified. i would suggest that we assume multiple layers of internal review and bureacracy making this announcement unvarnished truth at core. the backlash to the DOE/LLL would be absurd if they messed this up. this is THE holy grail of energy generation.Mercurywoodrose
50.193.19.66 (
talk)
17:00, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support on significance. It's being covered very widely by reliable sources around the world, therefore it's in the news. I'll trust the editorial judgement of the world's news media over the lay opinions of the editors above. {{u|Sdkb}}talk16:44, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The news media routinely over-hypes scientific papers. For example, see "
Major breakthrough on nuclear fusion energy". That's from the BBC -- a reliable source, right? But then notice that it's from back in February about another grand claim from a different lab. I noticed that at the time and decided that it didn't amount to anything.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
16:53, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
There is a reason we have SCIRS alongside MEDRS. If a major medical reported a breakthrough in treating cancer, covered widely by the media but not yet reported in a medical journal, we would not include that in ITN due to the MEDRS issue. Same can be said for other scientific breakthroughs.
Masem (
t)
19:07, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
MEDRS is a specially defined policy and not what we're discussing here! Very simply, the largest news outlets in the world are publishing stories about this, and this section is named "in the news." If the coverage were substantially less, as it is for many 'run of the mill' discoveries, I'd of course be open to reevaluating based on the strength of the sources. We do similar things for all articles on Wikipedia. But... this isn't run of the mill. 04:55, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Support Probably one of the most important scientific achievements this century. Considerable news coverage, with a lot of excitement about it yesterday even before the announcement. Any issues with the DOE press release are imo fixed by independent coverage by other sources. For example, the NYTimes
[57] interviews other scientists involved in the project, provides context, and puts things in perspective. No reason to doubt this, and its very exciting. Plus the NIF and fusion power articles are pretty good and it would be nice to highlight them.
CaptainEekEdits Ho Cap'n!⚓19:07, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The NYT report confirms that this is not actually a break-even result, "Although the latest experiment produced a net energy gain compared to the energy of the 2.05 megajoules in the incoming laser beams, NIF needed to pull 300 megajoules of energy from the electrical grid in order to generate the brief laser pulse." It's also interesting that fusion power is not what these giant lasers are for, "The main purpose of the National Ignition Facility is to conduct experiments to help the United States maintain its nuclear weapons."
Andrew🐉(
talk)
19:23, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Strong Support - Massive significance. For a world currently in an energy crisis, and facing climate change, this is a major breakthrough and story. It is literally in the news.
PrecariousWorlds (
talk)
20:00, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose This an area of science that has historically been full of bullshit. We cannot know yet whether this is just another example. We need certainty.
HiLo48 (
talk)
20:23, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I really don't care. I won't believe this until five years have passed and it's been replicated a dozen times all over the world.
HiLo48 (
talk)
22:40, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support - yes this is not a peer-reviewed article, but this is in the news, and right now this is news, and widely covered news. Its on the front page of nearly every major news website out there. This is a huge deal, and right now is when it is news. nableezy -
21:29, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support. Massive news that hopefully encourages global leaders to rethink the merits of nuclear energy. As per above, the lack of a peer-reviewed source is a valid argument but this is indeed in the newsright now.
DarkSide830 (
talk)
21:33, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
What are you talking about? A. this article was before the announcement, and before interviewing outside experts. B. has nothing to do with our criteria for posting to ITN. Nearly all of your comments have been contradicted by any number of policies and guidelines, most notably
WP:OR, and should be ignored by a closer. As an editor wrote above, I'll trust the editorial judgement of the world's news media over the lay opinions of the editors above. That is, in addition to being on point in this discussion, also in fact Wikipedia policy. nableezy -
21:46, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The author of the Atlantic article seems well informed because he's written a book about the history of this field: Sun in a Bottle: The Strange History of Fusion and the Science of Wishful Thinking. So, he's an independent expert.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
21:58, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Well informed enough to note, in the article, that the entire premise of the article is not yet clear. (When this story went to press, neither the Livermore lab nor the Department of Energy had responded to requests for comment.). The multiple sources from after the announcement note that the premise was in fact incorrect, and that independent experts have agreed with the DoE's statement on both the result and the significance. nableezy -
22:06, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I've read the other reports and the significance seems to be not that this is a practical method of power generation but that they have achieved "
ignition" – the state in which fusion is occurring at the intensity found in an H-bomb. That's the main purpose of National Ignition Facility -- to test and validate the ignition of US nuclear weapons. This has been an existential issue for the lab, whose future was in doubt after the cold war ended and that's why they have been so anxious to get a result. The challenge is presenting this accurately in a blurb. And there's still the issue of peer-review as: "
The findings have not been peer reviewed".
Andrew🐉(
talk)
23:04, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
This is not energy generation. Although an important scientific breakthrough, the actual claim being made here is that the heat energy out of the fuel was 50% greater than the optical energy absorbed by the pellet. The lasers themselves are only on the order of 1% efficient, and nonetheless the facility has no means of capturing the power anyway. [
osunpokeh/
talk/
contributions]
05:15, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Optical energy absorbed (not i.e. reflected) by the pellet was one of the previous milestones. This is 1.5 times the power of the laser light and charging the laser took a lot more than that. The symmetry required seems pretty hard, like the explosive lenses of post-Hiroshima atomic bombs.
Sagittarian Milky Way (
talk)
14:36, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose , the more I read about it, the more I am convinced that the reason for the announcement is to secure future financial support for the project. Which in turn it is aimed for
Stockpile stewardship rather than energy generation. Also, the ratio Q (E generated vs E needed) taking account the 400 MJ to power up the lasers, gives a Q~0.01 far from the 0.7 record of the
JET tokamak (
source). So, not really breakthrough news, just PR for a
simbolic milestone.
Alexcalamaro (
talk)
06:11, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support in principle. RS newspapers are heralding it as a major breakthrough, so it's in the news and qualifies, whatever individual Wikipedians might think about it. That said, though, the article quality is poor at the moment, a lot of missing citations, so the discussion is probably moot anyway. —
Amakuru (
talk)
13:23, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Weak support altblurb - Lay media has a poor track record of accurately conveying science information, but it is undoubtedly in the news. Altblurb is clearer and more accurate than the original blurb. I have concerns with the accuracy of news reports, and thus the accuracy of our article which is based on them. However, I feel readers may come to us expecting to find clarity given the hype in the news, and so it is worth running. ~ ONUnicorn(
Talk|
Contribs)problem solving14:46, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support. Atlblurb is fine. The event is widely covered by the RS and is widely characterized by the RS as a breakthrough. That should be good enough for us.
Nsk92 (
talk)
16:27, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Pull regardless of my stance on this, it had been pointed out that the NIF article was not ready to post with cb tags and unsourced paragraphs. --
Masem (
t)
17:34, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Post-posting comment - I checked the NIF article and three cn tags remain there (although personally it already looks good to me). And while I mentioned the peer-reviewed article in the pre-announcement sub-section, I concur with Nableezy that this has already become major news, which is basically the essence of ITN.
Vida0007 (
talk)
18:46, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Post-posting support This is something which is being covered at a sufficient level to indicate that people are hearing about it outside of Wikipedia, so that clears the significance hurdle. The article is sufficient quality; yes there are a small number of cn tags, but on the balance the article is very well referenced, and the relevant information is scrupulously balanced. --
Jayron3219:33, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Quite confused here. The main action on this is just a link to an article mostly about the facility, the only mention of the hook phrase "fusion ignition" on the entire article is in a caption, the section about it is called
Breakeven, which the fusion ignition article linked calls out in the lead that it should not be confused with "breakeven". This sounds like an important scientific achievement, but the article seems to woefully under represent this. —
xaosfluxTalk20:56, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Pull - obviously. The NIF article is not the correct one to post, it's
fusion power that has the update in it, as per the nomination above. And in any case, the NIF article is astoundingly unreferenced. Does anybody even bother checking quality before posting these days? Cheers —
Amakuru (
talk)
21:15, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Addition - as of now there are
23 citation needed tags in the article that I've spotted, plus the "ICF program, 1970s" section has two entirely uncited paragraphs.
Wuerzele has been reverting my addition of those tags, noting that the same material is already cited in a child article, but as far as I'm aware that's never been a substitute for having citations present in the actual page linked from the main page. As such, this still needs to be pulled even if the citation needed tags are removed again. Cheers —
Amakuru (
talk)
22:03, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Pull how is getting 3 Mjoules from 400 MJ news? Also it is reached in a not desirable configuration. This is an example of news clickbait.--
ReyHahn (
talk)
21:18, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment I think re-targeting so that
fusion power is the bold link is much wiser at the moment; this is the main article of concern to the blurb in my view, and the article needs considerably less citation work than the NIF article.
Curbon7 (
talk)
23:28, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
No, the
fusion power article has about 40 paragraphs which have no citation or a {{cn}}. If it was
tag bombed in the same way, it would look worse. It's a larger and more general topic and so would be a lot more work to perfect.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
23:30, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The
fusion ignition article needs work too. For example, it explains in detail that NIF achieved ignition on August 8: "the National Ignition Facility claimed to have triggered ignition in the laboratory on Sunday, August 8th, 2021 for the first time in the over 60-year history of the ICF program. ... In August 2022, the results of the experiment were confirmed in three peer-reviewed papers." This all sounds great but this latest ballyho is about a different shot which took place on December 5. So what happened on August 8 and was that ignition or wasn't it? The article doesn't say. The trouble is that this lab has a long history of claiming such successes and unpicking the details is not simple. And getting the date right is just the start. There's also the technical detail and the article doesn't have much. The bigger articles have a lot more detail with hundreds of citations but then get shot down for not being perfect. You can't win.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
09:20, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
August was 1.8 megajoules of laser light in and 1.37 megajoules of fusion out. December was 2.05 megajoules of lasers in and like 3 megajoules out. It's not that complicated. In both cases it takes hundreds of megajoules of electricity to recharge the lasers (enough to run a Tesla about 400 miles)
Sagittarian Milky Way (
talk)
14:35, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Amending previous "support" vote to be a pull per above. Article is not in good shape and the blurb chosen does not target a satisfactory article.
DarkSide830 (
talk)
23:48, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I suppose
fusion ignition might just about be OK, given that the statement by the US energy secretary explicitly mentioned that term, although it's a rather short article and the detail is not great there. More importantly, even that article is lacking citations in places. I'd still prefer
fusion power, but might acquiesce to
fusion ignition if it's expanded a little and cites sorted. —
Amakuru (
talk)
11:33, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Also, the blurb would need to be clarified a little. "Achieving fusion ignition" is not a new development, that has happened in
hydrogen bombs before, as I understand it. The breakthrough here (as I understand it) is that fusion ignition has been achieved in a controlled environment, without the use of ignition through nuclear fission, and in a manner that releases more energy than is put in. —
Amakuru (
talk)
11:36, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment even if the article gets fixed this is not news. 1) it creates 3 megajoules from 300-400 from the grid (it is just inside the system that it accounts to 2 megajoules). 2) it is not a scalable approach, tokamaks are considered better by the community
[58] 3) many scientists are writing disclaimers. Did the "creation of a black hole" by Google made it to Wikipedia front page too? I do not think so.--
ReyHahn (
talk)
09:43, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Keep pulled unless someone can explain why an experiment that created a gain of 1.5MJ but pulled 300MJ+ from external sources in order to do it is going to change the future of energy generation.
Black Kite (talk)14:46, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
You're kinda missing the point. The evidence that something is being covered by reliable news sources is that it is being covered by reliable news sources. That doesn't go away because you quote random facts about the story and then act incredulous. Scoffing at things says nothing about the thing, it only says something about you. The thing in question is being covered by reliable news sources in a manner that indicates it is significant. That doesn't go away because you have an attitude of scorn about it. --
Jayron3215:35, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
AGF much? It was a genuine question and I wasn't scoffing at it at all, I totally understand why the theory is important, but was asking a genuine question as to how it is important in practice if it uses so much power. The latter is far more newsworthy than the former.
Black Kite (talk)16:40, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
That's not really a matter for this forum. What makes something newsworthy is that news found it worthy. That's something that can be established via looking for evidence, and doesn't require anyone to know anything about the technical details you keep going on about. --
Jayron3212:26, 16 December 2022 (UTC)reply
There are laser-emitting diodes (LEDs) much more efficient than this but presumably they're not able to dump 2.05 megajoules (half kilowatt-hour) of UV so quickly. Like such a tiny fraction of a microsecond it's momentarily 500,000,000,000,000 watts which is c.200 times average world electricity production and almost 100 times every power plant, solar cell etc on Earth running at 100%. During their many years of existence all LED specs improved very fast, except at least 2 will have to start slowing drastically about now: white ones can't keep doubling brightness per watt every x years cause they're already like 200-300 lumen per watt which approaches 100% conversion, and #2 to "fail" will be colored LED brightness per watt doubling every x years cause exactly 0 waste heat@the brightest color (green) would be 683 lumens per watt. When the "Moore's Laws" of the other LED specs will start to slow drastically I don't know but at least now there's hope for NIF-sized inertial confinement by mid-century while in 2020 it seemed hopeless.
Sagittarian Milky Way (
talk)
18:48, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Thats a bit like asking why was it important that
this was able to solve a linear equation that most high school students could complete. Can also check with your local university's physics or nuclear engineering departments and see if they think this is unimportant. nableezy -
16:00, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Schwede66: (who re-posted this) - I'm still just as lost as I was above; the bold article doesn't really talk about this "event", the mention is in a section called "Breakeven" which the article about ignition says ignition should not be confused with breakeven. It looks like the bold target has an entire one sentence about this event??? —
xaosfluxTalk20:38, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Xaosflux TBH, I'm also uneasy about this item, but for very different reasons. Having read up about this, it looks more like a publicity stunt to secure ongoing funding than a scientific breakthrough. I reposted it because it had previously been posted, I pulled it over the the bold target articles having referencing issues, and once those issues were resolved, I was asked to repost. And so I did. I cannot see that consensus has changed but personally, I would rather see this binned. However, I don't go by my personal opinion rather than what this group of editors concludes. If we are agreed that it shouldn't be there, let's pull it once more. Schwede6620:46, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Schwede66 - I don't know enough about this topic to make a good choice on it; so I'm just approaching it as a lay reader. When looking at everything else in INT right now, there are bold articles that talk about the event that is in the news. Is this facility what the primary thing that is in the news, or is it just the place where a newsworthy event took place? Where is the article about this event? I think maybe it is
Fusion ignition, but that article seems to have one sentence about the event. I see from supporters above that this is purportedly a major scientific discovery/breakthrough - but there isn't much content I'm seeing on any of these pages about the breakthrough itself. —
xaosfluxTalk21:01, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Fusion research of any kind is irrationally underfunded, they need it. All those fusion by like 2000 estimates were based on expectations of $30 billion 2022 dollars or something like that but actual funding was like half billion or something almost useless like that. Fusion power just gets exponentially harder the smaller the machine is, all other things being equal the "fuel
thermal mass/inertia" is proportional to (fuel width times fuel width times fuel width) but "square meters touching the hundreds of millions of degrees cooler outside world" is only proportional to that divided by fuel width. Same reason an ocean of boiling water takes a lot longer to cool down than a drop of boiling water.
Sagittarian Milky Way (
talk)
21:18, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Question I see it's just been reposted. I don't know enough to know the specifics, but does it bother anyone else that the blurb is directly contradicted by the bolded article? The article clearly says that fusion ignition was achieved in 2021, and that this is a "scientific breakeven". This all seems to be approx. 95% PR hype, and I suppose we're probably just parroting news headlines, but if we're going to post something, shouldn't the blurb and the article say the same thing? Was there some particular rush to post before this fundamental issue was resolved? --
Floquenbeam (
talk)
20:43, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The NIF article says that they achieved a "burning plasma" in 2021 but that's not the same as ignition, according to the exact definitions that they are using. In the burning achievement, the plasma was fusing but required external energy to keep it hot enough. For ignition, the reaction has to produce enough energy to make it self-sustaining. It's like when you light a fire -- you have to get it going fast enough that it will keep burning rather than just fizzling out. It's confusing and quite technical because, in the NIF pellets, there isn't much fuel and so the reaction won't last long anyway – just a fraction of a second. For more practical power generation, you want a machine like
ITER which is planned to get a lot more plasma good and hot and then keep it fusing for an hour or so. We should get our heads around this because ITER is expected to start testing in 2025 and so they will start making claims like "first plasma" then.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
23:05, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
To be clear, Floquenbeam is still right to think that this is "approx. 95% PR hype". Even ITER won't produce more power than it consumes, when considered as a full system, but they don't plan to fully demonstrate that until 2040+. See
a sceptical view. Our job is to help the world understand the details rather than being blinded by science. In the meantime, my neighbour has recently installed solar panels on his roof. This is functioning fusion power that's here today and seems economically viable. That's the competition and it's winning.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
08:33, 16 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Territorial fusion was never going to be 1st generation clean energy. Not with that budget it wasn't. For limitless green energy by current standards USA could've afforded an extra trillion inflation-adjusted bucks spread out over 1950 to 2000.
Sagittarian Milky Way (
talk)
14:44, 16 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Serb protesters in
Northern Kosovo block main roads for a second day following a nighttime exchange of fire with
police after the arrest of a Serb former policeman, amid rising tensions between authorities and
Kosovo's Serb minority.
(Reuters)
South Sudan declares a
measles outbreak with a spokesperson for the Ministry of Health reporting that there are currently 2,471 cases and 31 deaths from measles reported in 22 counties.
(Xinhua)
Federal authorities in the
United States announce the arrest of a
Libyan man
charged in relation with the
Lockerbie bombing in 1988, which killed 270 people.
(CNN)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: German writer and illustrator of children's books which are not only for children (
Duck, Death and the Tulip), first German to be awarded the Swedish prize that is kind of the Nobel prize in the field. - Article was remarkably good, made only minor formatting changes, and used some refs more than once. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk)
16:09, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Support - Article now fully sourced. Excellent composer with amazing career that created such amazing original work like the Twin Peaks and Laura Palmer themes.
SitcomyFan (
talk)
07:33, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose I've never heard of these and find no nomination in prior year. We cannot post all awards for cinema, so we select only the most significant. A fair number have been included at ITN/R, so I think a case would have to be made to expand the glut any further. GreatCaesarsGhost20:46, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I proposed adding it on talk. I can not speak for everyone and don't know whether everyone heard of them. It is a major Film Award, it recognises European cinema, not only English language films and not only films screened in LA. The Awards have significant coverage - this is what counts. Previous ceremonies
[59][60][61][62] are covered in the same sources that cover Oscars and BAFTAS.
Kirill C1 (
talk)
21:04, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I would not dispute any of that. But there are unquestionably a great many events that have significant coverage in the press that we nevertheless do not cover here in the interest of balancing the topics covered. The threshold certainly varies (e.g. soccer gets more events than gridiron) but this one is already well represented. Also, the Cannes and Berlin are more prestigious awards that honor European and non-English films. GreatCaesarsGhost23:27, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Support. Not seeing a reason not to. The biography is well-referenced, and has been updated with the news of subject's death, which has been reported in the major oriental outlets (e.g.,
[67]).
MBlaze Lightning (
talk)
12:06, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article:Artemis 1 (
talk·history·tag) Blurb: The Orion capsule of NASA's Artemis 1 unmanned lunar orbit mission successfully splashes down on Earth. (
Post) News source(s):CNN Credits:
Nominator's comments: We did post Artemis 1's launch but as per ITNR, the arrival of a craft that includes lunar orbits and beyond are also considered. This is part of a series of NASA missions to get us back onto the Moon. Currently one section has an orange tag and needs fixing.
Masem (
t)
18:17, 11 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Already blurbed, and I don't think the return of a capsule to Earth counts as arrival of a spacecraft under the specific wording of the ITN/R entry: "Arrival of spacecraft (to lunar orbit and beyond) at their destinations".
DarkSide830 (
talk)
00:39, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose - this was entirely expected as part of the mission; maybe it should have been ongoing? I'm all in favour of blurbing the launches of the mission - and even of
Artemis 3 a second time if they do step onto the moon as planned. But the landings seem overkill to me.
Nfitz (
talk)
03:02, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose – I have to agree that this arrival isn't particularly worth blurbing. We blurbed the launch 25 days ago, and this unmanned test does not compare to the human missions planned for the coming years. I might be willing to blurb the human missions twice in this manner, but currently we don't even really know if humans would've survived this re-entry (at least, the Wikipedia article doesn't go into detail on how well this went). ~
Maplestrip/Mable (
chat)
08:19, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
For the record, I don't think this qualifies as ITNR. "Arrival of spacecraft (to lunar orbit and beyond) at their destinations" to me mean its arrival around the Moon, not its subsequent returns to Earth. --
KTC (
talk)
11:01, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support - Artemis 1 was the first step of the human exploration of the Inner Solar System. A successful mission, with a safe return for Earth is enough to make ITN imo.
PrecariousWorlds (
talk)
12:05, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose - Personally, I don't feel as if a return trip (atleast a return trip from the artemis 1) is worthy to get a second blurb. It's already gotten a blurb for launching so I don't believe that it needs to be blurbed again.
Onegreatjoke (
talk)
15:18, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Significant loss of life in a small community; national news coverage; some mystery over the cause - while all official and media sources are suspecting a gas leak the property was not connected to the gas main and no damage to pipes have been found.
Curb Safe Charmer (
talk)
10:24, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Curbon7: It is a photo taken from just along the road from the building that was destroyed. Unfortunately as there has been a strict police cordon in place since the explosion it has not been possible to get a better picture. There are pictures by the Government press office and by accredited media and some by drone operators but none that appear to be licenced under creative commons. I can see if I can take a better one with a long lens and upload to Commons.
Curb Safe Charmer (
talk)
12:37, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I've now taken some photos and added them to the article. They aren't great, as the emergency services have erected screening to prevent onlookers from any nearby vantage point such as the public carpark that overlooks the site.
Curb Safe Charmer (
talk)
13:13, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Samwalton9: thanks; at
a press conference today the police have said that they have found all the victims they expect to find, so perhaps you could amend the blurb to nine people, rather than at least nine people.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Feminist, child welfare advocate, and activist. Hughes died on December 1 but I think her death was announced more recently. Article is Start class. -
SusanLesch (
talk)
03:53, 11 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Question: Can an admin please tell me if Hughes is eligible for ITN? I will work on her article if she is. Her death appears to be announced by the funeral home the day after her burial which was December 9. Obituaries then appeared in the news. ITN rules say the announcement must be within 7 days. Thank you. -
SusanLesch (
talk)
14:57, 11 December 2022 (UTC)reply
support the second para of the “Early career” section is unsourced. I haven’t been able to see obituaries in English earlier than yesterday, so I think she may be suitable for inclusion in MP.
_-_Alsor (
talk)
16:17, 11 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Quite a significant event of human rights being removed, one of the causes of the
2019 riots finally making it to law. Widely reported. Protests in Jakarta recently too, Bali threatened as a top tourist destination
Abcmaxx (
talk)
10:33, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support and snow unclose We've posted when a country №156 implemnented homosexual marriage not once, not thrice, but many, many times. We should post when countries move in the opposite direction as well
5.44.170.26 (
talk)
11:40, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Needs work For example, the lead of the nominated article says "By deviating as necessary from the Regulation of the President of the Republic of Indonesia dated 10 October 1945 No. 2, it stipulates that the criminal law regulations that are currently in effect are the Dutch criminal law regulations that existed on March 8, 1942". This is too bureaucratic to be clear but, in any case, doesn't seem to reflect the change.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
13:21, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose on quality but support on principle - this is a massive piece of legislation that removes rights we'd normally associate with a democratic country. --
Masem (
t)
14:03, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support in principle, oppose on quality. As a very significant piece of legislation in one of the world's most populous countries (definitely
democratic backsliding...), I would support it. Unfortunately, the quality is not anywhere close to where in needs to be.
Neutralitytalk18:03, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment - The blurb mentions
extramarital sex (i.e. adultery) which is illegal in a decent amount of democratic countries, including some of the United States, and seemed to already be illegal in Indonesia prior to this. From the sources provided for the ITN nomination it's generally referred to as "sex outside of marriage" which sounds more like
premarital sex to me - which would be an even more significant removal of rights.
Lewis Hulbert (
talk)
18:16, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment. Bit of a question on targeting here - the target article,
Indonesian Criminal Code states in it's infobox and later in the article that this legislation was repealed and replaced. Sources seem to be calling the new legislative package by this name as well, but it feels like there is a dissonance between what the article is suggesting and the sources used.
DarkSide830 (
talk)
00:46, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Indeed, the lead of the target article still says "...the criminal law regulations that are currently in effect are the Dutch criminal law regulations that existed on March 8, 1942." and so it's talking about the old code not the new one.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
08:47, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I think then it would be beneficial to the nomination that a new article be created for this new code, or at least re-target to the
Indonesian criminal procedure page, or one specifically discussing the protests and discussion surrounding the new legislative package.
DarkSide830 (
talk)
21:29, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
'Per notability' isn't an argument. Of course it's notable. The question is, is it headline-worthy. (I'm neutral on it myself; I don't feel I understand the situation well enough.) But I see people saying things like 'Support - notable', and that's just deploying one of Wikipedia's favourite buzzwords in place of any actual argument.
GenevieveDEon (
talk)
23:33, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
A court in Moscow sentences prominent opposition figure
Ilya Yashin to eight and a half years in prison on charges related to his criticism of the
ongoing war in Ukraine.
(ABC News)
because it's the start of a long and arduous process, it will require slow and multiple changes in law to implement; this is the notable milestone. Also not snow.
Abcmaxx (
talk)
11:44, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
This is an enclyopedia, not a news journal, as has been said countless times. This is notorious, but for now this and nothing is the same. When it becomes a reality, then we will debate it.
_-_Alsor (
talk)
12:15, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Please stop calling for snow in early votes. You don't know at that point whether
WP:SNOW is going to be relevant, and it just looks like a clumsy attempt to shut down discussion.
GenevieveDEon (
talk)
23:34, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I have literally only asked for it in two (2) discussions that I have participated in this week. If you think it's problematic, that's strictly subjective.
_-_Alsor (
talk)
00:31, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I doubt that suggesting it exclusively twice (and it's completely irrelevant that it was in two successive nominations) is problematic. It's an opinion that should be respected.
_-_Alsor (
talk)
22:44, 16 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support The national assembly has just passed a relevant law so this seems a reasonable time to run the story. I've suggested an alt blurb.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
13:35, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose Relatively minor administrative weirdness that brings in S. Korea with the rest of the world of how age is calculated. This is a DYK at best. --
Masem (
t)
13:54, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Their physical age is not changing. Someone born in S. Korea on 1/1/1993 will still have been on this planet for 30 years come 1/1/2023. It is more what from an administrative side how they documented age. They are now bringing that outdated system in line with the rest of the world.
Masem (
t)
14:57, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
This will be quite a big deal in South Korea. Recall our rubric above, "Please do not oppose an item solely because the event is only relating to a single country...".
Andrew🐉(
talk)
15:05, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
It's an administrative change, nothing more. My argument has nothing to do with being related to a single country.
Masem (
t)
15:20, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose good faith nom. Unless I'm misreading this, nothing has actually happened outside of planning. We don't typically post plans. Beyond that, this sounds like something along the lines of Ruritania planning to switch from driving on the left side of the road, to the right. Mildly interesting but not exactly ITN material. -
Ad Orientem (
talk)
15:15, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose The change is bureaucratic filing, which is boring. Both in theory and practice: at least some Koreans have long been aware of the difference to the rest of the world and have counted their age as 0 until first birthday for years anyway, so I don't think it can sneak into ITN-worthy as having an effect on a whole population either (edit: and seeing as proposed change is just for bureaucratic purposes, I doubt the Korean population who do count +1 or +2 will bother changing their age in everyday life anyway).
Kingsif (
talk)
17:44, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Question: The article said "On 8 December 2022, the National Assembly passed a bill that would prohibit the usage of traditional ages on official documents effective June 2023." A national parliament passing a law is it "actually happening." Of course most laws need rules and regulations to work, but for this one, this is set and in stone and is actually happening.
Howard the Duck (
talk)
23:45, 11 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose. This is an administrative change, for all intents and purposes and for all we know may not even have an individual impact depending on how individual people feel about it. Encyclopedic, notable, DYK material. Not ITN worthy though.
DarkSide830 (
talk)
03:25, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support – The bill has passed, the change will be made. Feels to me like a major step in cultural standardization. Article looks good, so I'm all for blurbing this. ~
Maplestrip/Mable (
chat)
08:29, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I do think there's a misunderstanding at play on what DYK is; DYK is about featuring recently created/improved articles, while ITN is about featuring articles that have seen some expansion because of recent events. It often feels like "interesting news" is devalued in ITN because "we have a different section for that," but this perspective doesn't make sense to me. I do think interestingness (and especially a certain level of encyclopedia-ness) is a valuable thing to consider for ITN as well. This might also tie into us
not being a news ticker. I recognize this might be a larger discussion for the talk page, but I hope I could convince some people to reconsider this item. ~
Maplestrip/Mable (
chat)
13:23, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose - This is administrivia. I opposed the 'new SI prefixes' nomination, and the 'no more leap seconds' one, and I oppose this too. Technical changes in how something is measured are not headline news.
GenevieveDEon (
talk)
12:57, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, but the physical worth of their money hasn't changed. It's only how they calculate money from the administrative side. Still, you supported this current nom as well, so it makes sense for you to have also supported Decimal Day. 🌈WaltCip-(
talk)13:43, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose Honestly, it probably fits better in "Did you know" then ITN. It's an interesting fact, for sure, which makes it great for that section, but not ITN worthy.
TheBlueSkyClub (
talk)
21:34, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support It's encyclopedic knowledge; the Korean system of numbering ages is well-known across the world as different, and this marks a significant change; and it would interest Wikipedia's readers.
NorthernFalcon (
talk)
17:10, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Support - Did a quick cleanup of the prose issues and swapped out some sources for better versions. I think it's good to go in its current state, but obviously can be further improved (likely with longer obituaries yet to be published). Wahl is probably the most prominent soccer journalist in the United States, so this is a total shock. SounderBruce05:48, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support blurb Looks like a Khahoggi situation here. His brother has made a statement that Grant was assassinated which isn't surprising to me at all. Arab oil monarchies kill another critic of theirs and the US'll let it slide once again --
5.44.170.26 (
talk)
09:41, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Article has improved since I last visited it, but still has some work to do (especially in the discography, filmography and awards sections).
Vida0007 (
talk)
21:22, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I have already fixed the sources for the tables. As for the awards section, I think the GMMSF award was his only award that he received during his lifetime.
Vida0007 (
talk)
11:56, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Does winning Pilipinas Got Talent count as winning an award? Perhaps winning the GMMSF award should be mentioned in the prose? --
PFHLai (
talk)
12:29, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The United States
Federal Trade Commission announces that they will sue in an attempt to block
Microsoft's pending acquisition of
Activision Blizzard, citing concerns that the deal would give Microsoft too much control over certain parts of the gaming industry.
(The Verge)
Iran announces the first known
execution of a prisoner arrested in connection with the protests. The man was found guilty of "waging war against God" after being accused of blocking a street and attacking a security forces member with a
machete.
(Time)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see
this RFC and
further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets
WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Article for a former professional ice hockey player, and coach of the Canada men's national ice hockey team. I apologize for nominating this five days after his death. I have done some rewriting and cleanup but I have no more time to commit to this as I am busy in real life. I think the article meets minimum standards, but it has a lot more potential if anyone has the time. Best wishes.
Flibirigit (
talk)
19:12, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: Recent discussion on ITN talk page showed this wasn't yet considered ITN but needed more nominations as to judge that. Awards show just finished so some of the reception to the show itself are yet unknown.
Masem (
t)
04:11, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Question Should we mention the whole
Bill Clinton thing? I mean, it was pretty unique, and I believe the Oscars debacle when they announced the wrong movie first was also mentioned on this page back when it happened a few years ago.
5.44.170.26 (
talk)
04:15, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I believe we also decided against mentioning the Will Smith slap in the Oscar blurb. In general it doesn't seem to be entirely proper to bring up short-term disturbances in these sorts of events. ~
Maplestrip/Mable (
chat)
07:38, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Well, there really is nothing to see here. And since you've !voted to oppose it anyway, your question of covering it is outright moot. 🌈WaltCip-(
talk)14:00, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
ACtually if you read my opposing vote the question is not moot at all, but since most people just push his or her agenda (in this case - the gamers agenda), I see no one actually takes into the consideration or really even reads each other comments, so your comment here is truly moot.
5.44.170.26 (
talk)
03:35, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support. I'd argue The Game Awards are far more notable than the Oscars and Emmys nowadays—far more viewers, at least. It was posted
last year too, so there's precedent. –
Rhain☔ (
he/him)
05:25, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support on principle We posted The Game Awards last year, and the event tends to get significant media coverage within 24 hours of the event. Given the event ended an hour ago, it's probably too soon to judge media coverage.
NorthernFalcon (
talk)
05:28, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment The Elden Ring article is mostly in good shape, but the Synopsis section is entirely unreferenced. That will need to be fixed before this can be posted. Shouldn't take too long to fix that.
NorthernFalcon (
talk)
07:14, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
It's pretty normal for plot sections to be completely uncited. I find it weird and uncomfortable as well, but it shouldn't be an issue for main page features at all. ~
Maplestrip/Mable (
chat)
07:35, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I don't know why there's a debate on this. There have been several TFAs from this year that have completely unsourced plot sections.
MOS:VG allows for the plot to be sourced to the game itself if necessary. But if you want sources, there's possibly some that can be found for the convoluted thing.
‡ The Night Watch ω(talk)13:32, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I just want to note that verifiable is not a synonym for inline citations; just because something doesn't have inline citations does not mean it is in conflict with
WP:V.
WP:MINREF, which re-states what is in
WP:V, makes it clear that while some material must have inline citations, there are other ways that material is verifiable. --
Jayron3213:46, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
It is standard practice across all fiction works that the plot summary is assumed to be sourcable to the work itself, as long as it is concise and only summarizes the work.
Masem (
t)
13:46, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose I watched most of the thing and it was an embarrasing show, it's mostly an advertisement filled with trailers and straight up ads (that Grubhub ad) lol which take 90% of the time. Comparing it to the oscars is like comparing some youtube star wars/pop culture interviewing podcast to the Larry King or Charlie Rose's shows.
5.44.170.26 (
talk)
08:06, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Edit Also the fact that this was posted last year is not an argument. It hadn't been posted before, shouldn't have been posted then and should not be posted now. The only real argument to notability that I can see here is the whole bill clinton/alt-right debacle.
5.44.170.26 (
talk)
08:07, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Yeah I really don't get why this big advertisement TV show became the canonical game awards all of the sudden (rather than the much older and more respectable BAFTAs or GDC), and yet here we are... ~
Maplestrip/Mable (
chat)
08:16, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Just because you don't personally like the show doesn't mean it isn't eligible for ITN. Honestly, the fact that we've posted it last year, and that the Game Awards drew in more viewers, makes it notable enough.
PrecariousWorlds (
talk)
10:17, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Take your strawman arguments off this website, please. If oscars were 80% trailers and advertisements for services like the
Grubhub, I'd vote against them being posted as well.
5.44.170.26 (
talk)
10:56, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
What I'm saying is that the event is being covered widely by reliable sources, and brought in more viewers than the Oscars. It shouldn't so quickly be discounted.
PrecariousWorlds (
talk)
12:10, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose per
WP:NOTPROMOTION. This seems to be a highly promotional trade show. There are lots of these for many products and there are even
awards for the best advert. Commercial interests make these unreliable -- computer games magazines were notorious for biased reviews to protect their advertising revenue.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
09:16, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The show itself, I would tend to agree that it is overly promotional, but the same could be said of the Oscars or Emmy ceremony (which are supported by ad breaks). That said, the awards themselves are ones selected by a large jury of industry members (akin to the voting members of the Academy for the Oscars), and what resulted from those awards is the focus here (as well as the focus in non-gaming sources covering it)
Masem (
t)
13:49, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oscars and Emmy are awarded in film and music, which are performing arts and greatly impact everyday life. Video games have never reached that level of importance.--
Kiril Simeonovski (
talk)
13:55, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Video games have exceeded film in annual global revenues, and its estimated there will be 3 billion people playing video games in 2023.
[69]. Video games are still "young" compared to film and music, but to claim they have no importance is severely missing the mark.
Masem (
t)
14:01, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I don't deny that gaming is a rapidly growing industry, but its annual revenues don't make it more important than film or music. While video games such as Pac-Man, Super Mario, The Legend of Zelda, Grand Theft Auto and Pokémon Go have exerted significant cultural impact in different periods, it cannot be said for the industry as a whole, so it's better to wait and see how that trend progresses in a decade or two from now.--
Kiril Simeonovski (
talk)
14:18, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Coffee is the world's most popular drink with about 400 billion cups drunk annually. So, should we promote awards like
Roaster of the year? And then do beer and wine too? Or consider cars as there's about 1.5 billion cars in the world now. So, should we do
Car of the Year too? No, the main reason that we have editors here lobbying for videogames is that they are videogamers, right? See
WP:FAN,
WP:COI and
WP:NPOV.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
17:30, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose mostly per Andrew. I don't get why these particular awards should be posted when there is a plethora of things with similar recognitions (maybe because we have a high-quality article?). And the fact that we posted it last year is not an argument for posting this year.--
Kiril Simeonovski (
talk)
10:09, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support Article is of sufficient quality and news sources have covered it to a sufficient level to demonstrate significance. --
Jayron3213:05, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support - this is a serious event, and hard to say it's not on a parse with athletic sporting events. That said though, the winning game should not be bolded. It's the event that's in the news, and per sporting examples such as
this"... the
Los Angeles Rams defeat the
Cincinnati Bengals in the Super Bowl ..."], we did not bold "Los Angeles Rams". Cheers —
Amakuru (
talk)
14:08, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
In cases like the Booker Prize, we do bold the winner if the article on that winner is up to snuff. Same with things like the Nobels. There's no reason the team articles in competition games can't be bolded, but those articles are usually of subpar quality.
Masem (
t)
14:25, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Video games do not have the same cultural relevance as film or sport. I'm disregarding any arguments about the format of the event (whether it runs ads has zero relevance for notability) or any arguments based on the false notion that this event received more attention than the Academy Awards.
Thebiguglyalien (
talk)
17:51, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support We posted the Game Awards winner for 2020 and 2021, and the article is in good shape, so I don't see why we should draw the line at this year. I find most of the arguments against posting it unconvincing, and that some of them, such as "video games are not as important as film", reeks of misplaced elitism. And I say this as someone who is mostly uninterested in video games.
Mount Patagonia (
talk)
18:42, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support. Major award show for major industry, widely covered in RSes. I'm not seeing much reason why we would post the Emmys or Grammys and not this.
Phediuk (
talk)
18:43, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support per Rhain and others. I also heavily dispute the argument that this event is not as notable as the Academy Awards, considering the 2021 Oscars received
16.6 million viewers according to
Nielsen Media Research, while this event received
85 million livestreams in 2021. Although the former statistics may be conservative due to Nielsen Media primarily basing TV viewership on household estimates (And the latter possibly inflated because of unreliable streaming statistics) they appear to have audiences of relatively similar size.
‡ The Night Watch ω(talk)20:09, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support If there is an Oscar or Emmy award for video games, it is the Game Awards, and a couple of the arguments seem to stem from video games being somehow inherently inferior to traditional media such as music or shows, of which I'd argue that video games have carved their slice in the pie of traditional media.
TheBlueSkyClub (
talk)
05:15, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support Oscar and Emmy (technically, they are also trade shows as they are held by associations) winners don't exactly get New York Times headlines, either. TGA definitely holds more attention nowadays, and it should go into ITN/R soon.
Juxlos (
talk)
05:20, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose The Game Awards were established only in 2014, while video games have been popular in the 1990s at least. I'm unconvinced this award is mature enough, achieving the same prestige as Oscars or a comparable distinction in other field.
Brandmeistertalk10:38, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
There are other awards that are 20+ yr, such as the BAFTA Games or the Game Developers Choice Awards, but with exception of the BAFTA, those do not normally get mainstream coverage, and I don't think, as a video game editor, I'd want to try to justify those. The BAFTA Games are important but they also tend to be specific to UK game production, whereas the Game Awards is international. It should also be pointed out that the Game Awards are effectively the spiritual successor to
Spike Video Game Awards which were established in 2003 with the same head guy
Geoff Keighley, and which he had to change when Spike opted to drop them.
Masem (
t)
13:58, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I'd never heard of
Spike and find that it was "The First Network for Men" – the TV equivalent of a
lad mag. One can understand why it might appeal to the Wikipedia demographic which is predominantly male, right? But, alas, it has now been rebranded as
Paramount which I've heard of but never watch. If I want some
Top Gear style programming, I find there's plenty on other channels.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
14:48, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose - industry award that isn't significant enough. I know that we could make the same argument about the Emmys and other awards, but we should be dialing back the number of recurring sports and award-related items, not expanding them.
Neutralitytalk18:05, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support We've posted this award in years past, and
Elden Ring is listed as a good article. While I do share some skepticism of TGA, the video game industry is one of media's biggest and in my view should have once a year posting.
Curbon7 (
talk)
18:46, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment I understand that Wikipedia does not operate by majority vote, but we're currently at 23 supports and 10 opposes after three days of debating this blurb.
NorthernFalcon (
talk)
19:18, 11 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment I find it a bit strange to post a picture of GRRM when he was mostly responsible for world building, and I would argue he is not largely responsible for the success of Elden Ring. Just putting up his picture because he is a famous person does not sit right with me.
Chaosquo (
talk)
15:13, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm inclined to agree. He wasn't even at The Game Awards, either. I'd rather we switch it out for The Game Awards' logo or something like that. —Gestrid (
talk)
15:19, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Post-posting support per Masem's arguments for posting, but agree that GRRM seems odd when he wasn't even there. It's somewhat understandable when we don't have photos of other members of the Elden Ring team to use (a photo of Miyazaki would make the most sense but we don't have any), so I'd either use the logo of the awards show or the box art of the game or something. Vanilla Wizard 💙17:47, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Revert image Listen I like George as much as everyone else, but it was defintiely a bit of a
rougeJoke decision, as the relevance is very slim and it was not discussed. Just revert the image back to Griner.
Curbon7 (
talk)
17:52, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose GRRM image as giving undue weight to GRRM's involvement over FromSoftware themselves; I personally prefer using the game's boxart instead. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (
投稿)
18:58, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Pull This shouldn’t have been posted. As
User:Andrew Davidson stated, this is basically a promotional trade show. There’s a certain bias which many of the supporting editors seem to have. This year’s awards were not covered by The NY Times, the American paper of record. This lack of attention suggests that these are not comparable to the Oscars or Grammys.
Thriley (
talk)
22:31, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
It was covered by the Washington Post, LA Times, Variety, BBC, Toronto Star, and The Guardian — all of which are some pretty solid news sources. Why would we pull just because the NYT isn't on that already long list of sources? Vanilla Wizard 💙04:31, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
For the record, it actually was covered by the New York Times
last year, and it's linked on last year's ITN nomination. Seems they just chose not to this year, which doesn't really matter for our purposes since it's covered by several other
WP:RSes. —Gestrid (
talk)
04:44, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I don't really think it says that much. As evidenced by this very ITN nomination, a lot of people still think of video games as being niche or an unimportant passtime compared to movies or TV shows despite how big the video game industry has become. Besides, as I said, whether the New York Times specifically covered this year's show doesn't really matter. What matters is if it was covered by any
WP:RSes, and it was covered by quite a few of them. —Gestrid (
talk)
06:10, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
At least take the photo down, either Griner or the would be King of Germany are far more important stories to merit a photo on the mainpage. nableezy -
05:18, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Indeed. The picture is outrageous. The caption asserts that Martin wrote the game but, so far as I can tell:
But they won't be able to find it again because
WP:ERRORS doesn't maintain an archive of discussions. We need a good record of this debacle for the next time the hypefest is suggested for ITN/R again.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
09:58, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
As the image poster, I wouldn't have been semi-
WP:BOLD if he wasn't already mentioned in
Elden Ring's lead, as well as in some of the award's coverage. In hindsight, it was too much of a stretch in this case to have the image from the topmost blurb (
WP:ITNPICT). —
Bagumba (
talk)
10:26, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Perhaps there was concern that one might incorrectly think board games? An alternative could be In video games,Video game Elden Ring wins Game of the Year..., unless one is worried that it reads as if a video game won a general game award.—
Bagumba (
talk)
13:56, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
One time I forgot what one award was so I clicked a link to remind myself. I don't think that's an issue since linking those articles is kind of the point.
RAN1 (
talk)
11:18, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose It's simply not notable on a world scale. I'm a gamer, I watched the Game Awards, but it's only relevant in video games. Like how come we didn't post that DRX won the LOL world champs even though the LoL world championships got more viewers than the Game Awards? Makes no sense. We shouldn't turn this into an video game wiki.
Alexysun (
talk)
02:53, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: Major prisoner exchange, in the news. Griner is one of the biggest players in women's basketball, and Viktor Bout is infamous as the Merchant of Death, and even inspired the film 'Lord of War'. Will probably need work on the articles, right now just a few paragraphs on either one.
PrecariousWorlds (
talk)
19:49, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support in general, but I would just say "US basketball player Brittney Griner is released from Russian custody in a prisoner exchange with Russian arms dealer Viktor Bout".
BD2412T20:58, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
People can read the details in her article. The exchange would be notable no matter what crime she had been convicted of.
BD2412T21:07, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support, but only if we include what they were each convicted for, and we place the emphasis on Bout as the more significant release, rather than the current emphasis on Griner.
BilledMammal (
talk)
22:28, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
There's no space or reason to include their convictions. We know that the punishment that Griner got was far worse than the crime, but when you include them, it clearly implicates the non-neutrality of their inclusion.
Masem (
t)
22:30, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose The nomination does not list a specific article for this event and it's such a bizarre deal that we seem to need a good explanation. As I understand it, there are about a million people in jail in the US for cannabis offences and yet a special deal is done with Putin for this particular user!? And this involves letting go a major criminal known as the "Lord of Death". Is truth just stranger than fiction or is there more to this than it seems!? Anyway, as we are not a celebrity news ticker, we need an encyclopedic article to justify an entry here.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
22:41, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
That was quick. But the article says nothing of
Prince Mohammed bin Salman who, according to the BBC, is claiming the credit for brokering the deal, which took place in
Abu Dhabi, just like a spy movie. The White House and Saudis don't seem to agree on the facts of the matter. Is the deal actually written down somewhere, like a treaty? It's a shame
John Prados is dead (see below) as we need someone like him to ferret out the details.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
23:40, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The BBC report is the one news source listed in the nomination. It says, "According to a joint Saudi-UAE statement, Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman played a leading role in mediation efforts, along with UAE President Mohammed bin Zayed al-Nahyan. ... But the White House denied any mediation had been involved. "The only countries that negotiated this deal were the United States and Russia,"" So who do we believe and why?
Andrew🐉(
talk)
23:54, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
We have run lots of news stories where the subject (the two individuals here) rather than the "story itself" are the bold link. Like when we bold link the winners of awards when the award is ITN/R. That cannot be a serious reason to oppose.
Kingsif (
talk)
00:56, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
If there's an ITN/R contest such as the Boat Race or Nobel Prize then naturally we will highlight the winners. But there is usually a central article and it's that which is ITN/R. This story is not like that. There are lots of news stories involving pairs of celebrities –- Harry and Meghan are all over the popular media currently. Per
WP:NOTNEWS, we require something more.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
08:44, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support. Major news covered in variety of sources -- as sources noted, the exchange is somewhat unprecedented in the imbalance of what they were each held for, which adds to notability. Articles are both detailed and up to Manual of Style standards. --
Rauisuchian (
talk)
23:21, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment Is this an EC covered topic or not, may i comment or can it be removed on a whim? Seems somewhat adjacent to a certain topic area that shall not be named but not quite? What is the deal here?
91.96.166.33 (
talk)
23:59, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support Major event. I'm curious how this vote would have looked like if we were in the 1960-s and were discussing the Powers-Abel swap. I bet plenty of people would have voted against posting that as well lol lmao.
5.44.170.26 (
talk)
08:09, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The most recent case of this sort was
Release of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe and we didn't run it. The
Death of Harry Dunn is also prominent in the news currently because the US spy, Anne Sacoolas, was sentenced yesterday. But she was careful not to come to the UK for the trial, for fear that she would be locked up. Agencies like the CIA and FSB like to protect their staff and they are able to make special deals for them. So it goes.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
09:52, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I often like imagining what ITN would've looked like if it was around in the past. We probably would've blurbed Powers-Abel, and this is arguably just as notable
PrecariousWorlds (
talk)
10:31, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Powers and Abel were separately notable but the swap was the only connection between them and we don't seem to have an article about it. That swap also involved
Frederic Pryor and so such hostages seem to be fungible assets -- pawns of the players of the
Great Game.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
10:50, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I remember noting in
WP:HOWITNWORKS that the
Watergate burglary would never have been covered on ITN/C, because at the time, its significance was totally underplayed. I imagine that a lot of ITN contributors at the time would have pointed to the White House press release calling it a "third-rate burglary". 🌈WaltCip-(
talk)13:51, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
How many prisoner exchanges between nuclear-armed powers have occurred in the last 20 years? A handful. I would not describe that as "fairly routine."
Neutralitytalk05:05, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The international diplomacy between the
P5 (or
P5+1, if you prefer) is more significant than diplomacy among non-P5 members. And international events involving one or more
G20 members are usually more noteworthy, or newsworthy, than other international events. That's just the reality of the matter.
Neutralitytalk00:38, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support original blurb with Griner, Bout, and prisoner exchange being WikiLinked. Major politicall/diplomatic prisoner swap; and its certainly a story of magnitude within the scope of ITN.
DrewieStewie (
talk)
17:09, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support per DrewieStewie. Considering the state of US-Russia relations at the moment, this is a major prisoner swap, and as mentioned by DrewieStewie, the story is notable for ITN.
TheBlueSkyClub (
talk)
19:02, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support per reasons stated by DrewieStewie, but preferably with the prisoner exchange article being the one in bold as mentioned by Tamzin. Was initially leaning on oppose but this has become a major news event, and is also quite noteworthy given the current circumstances. The proposed target articles (Griner, Bout, and the prisoner exchange article itself) are also in good shape and well-sourced.
Vida0007 (
talk)
19:40, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
You know, RAN1, you don't make the news coverage of the story go away because you wish the news hadn't covered it. Reliable source evidence that this was a major event exists. --
Jayron3217:14, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Because it was related to the war, it probably did get a lot of news coverage, yes. One of the criteria we use to determine whether to post items is their news coverage. We can't and don't hide from that. 🌈WaltCip-(
talk)16:20, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
My point was, RAN1, that you can literally say "X happens all the time" for literally every single item that has ever been posted on ITN. It's a statement which is simultaneously true, and irrelevant, about every item. What makes this prisoner exchange stand out among other prisoner exchanges is that this prisoner exchange is well-reported enough to have a public spotlight on it. --
Jayron3215:32, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
(Closed) Celine Dion diagnosed with Stiff-person syndrome
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Oppose - This is arguably someone's private medical information. It's scarcely our business at all, much less front-page news. And practically speaking, we have a very full Recent Deaths feed. Even if it was in any way desirable to post celebrities' diagnoses, the flood of them would be overwhelming. We're certainly not doing it as blurbs.
GenevieveDEon (
talk)
12:41, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose This is not being covered outside of celebrity news., if at all. The only source provided by the nom is an instagram post. Which is to say, there is no evidence that reliable sources consider this significant enough for us to post it. --
Jayron3213:20, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
First official execution connected to Mahsa Amini protests
Nominator's comments: Human rights groups have warned that Mohsen Shekari's execution will be the first of many; there are currently 12 people in Iran who could be executed imminently for their involvement in the Mahsa Amini protests, with at least 21 people facing potential death sentences, almost all for crimes similar to those Shekari was convicted of committing. The execution of Mohsen Shekari feels historically relevant for that reason, as well as the fact that it has generated significant controversy from at least seven prominent international officials (mostly from Europe), several human rights groups (including Amnesty International), and many Iranian citizens, including at least five Iranian celebrities. One commentator warned that Shekari's execution demonstrated that the Iranian government was at "the apogee of its toleration" and will start cracking down on protesters imminently.
Afddiary (
talk)
04:01, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose Both men that have been executed had injured members of the police. While we can argue the punishment was overly harsh, this seems to be in line with how Iran deals with criminals, and readily falls under the ongoing coverage. --
Masem (
t)
18:00, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Weak Oppose While Johnson was a member of a prolific air raid and deserves a mention in Wikipedia RDs owing to the fact that he's the last-surviving member, the article itself lacks many references in his 'Early life and education', 'Royal Air Force' and 'Post-military career' sections, if that can be fixed then I would deem this ready to post.
UberLordMetagross (
talk)
16:06, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose A group of delusional extremists were arrested. Notable enough for an article, but not significant enough for the front page - if the group had accomplished anything other than being arrested then it would be different, but they didn’t.
BilledMammal (
talk)
00:48, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I would argue that limiting ourselves only to disasters and successful coups would skew ITN but also penalise the efficiency of the German authorities for foiling the plot, and I would submit that this is not a good precedent.
Abcmaxx (
talk)
12:53, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Agreed, however the chances of such a plot being discovered early on before a coup is mounted in e.g. Burkina Faso are much slimmer than in Germany; and vice-versa, Burkina Faso is much more likely to suffer a successful coup than Germany. We should acknowledge such sensibilities if we are to be balanced and global.
Abcmaxx (
talk)
15:56, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose good faith nom, per BilledMammal. Fringe wackos arrested for plot that had zero chance of succeeding. Yeah, it's WP:Notable. But not THAT notable. -
Ad Orientem (
talk)
00:50, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
That was an actual attempted coup d'état, incited by a sitting POTUS that involved the storming of the US Capitol Building by thousands of insurrectionists. There is no comparison. -
Ad Orientem (
talk)
01:31, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support While nothing happened, this is what Jan 6 would have been for Germany. Add the mass law enforcement involvement to take in 20-some individuals and that makes is more than just stopping a wacko group. --
Masem (
t)
01:29, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I feel like "would have been" is important here—it wasn't even attempted, so saying "if it did happen it would have been really big" is irrelevant—if it actually did happen it wouldn't be comparable.
Still, this was nowhere near as large as Jan 6, and even if they hadn't been caught, it's very likely this wouldn't have spiralled out of control like it did in the Capitol
PrecariousWorlds (
talk)
13:01, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose per BilledMammal. Encyclopedicly relevant, but ultimately all that occurred was a number of arrests. Obviously using it as as hard and fast rule may not apply in all cases, but I think this event suggests an event that may have ended up somewhere how January 6th did, and while the established plot to create a coup is noteworthy, the failure of the plan to even begin makes it much less so.
DarkSide830 (
talk)
01:40, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support: an attempted coup d'état to overthrow a democratic government is significant. There was an armed faction so the intentions were supported by realistic means. Prefer option 2, or add "self-styled" before prince, since such have been abolished over 100 years ago. --
K.e.coffman (
talk)
02:27, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support Support. Clearly important but also unusual. Really shows everyone that our way of live, our liberal democracy itself is at stake here!!!
5.44.170.26 (
talk)
03:11, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Neutral Some fringe nutcases planned a plot. Bad? Yes. Any chance in succeeding? Hell no. Comparisons here to J6 are flawed in one critical way: during J6, insurrectionists literally occupied Congress. However, it would be hypocritical of me to oppose this while also advocating for more blurbs to posted overall, so I will land in the neutral column.
Curbon7 (
talk)
03:56, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Template:U's well-stated argument has convinced me to support this posting. While this was just a hairbrained plot, the scale and legitimacy of the plot (i.e. the involvement of a former MP, a hereditary prince, and several military figures) is significant.
Curbon7 (
talk)
12:26, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support: its significance is very clear. The related page is also in good shape. If it would be in other countries, it would be posted.
Egeymi (
talk)
07:26, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support: The incident significant enough and important for the main page. It was a serious plot and faced a strong intervention by the police. --
Mhhosseintalk07:35, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support alt blurb Article is good to go and this has become a big headline in the continent. Not on the same level as the self-coup attempt in Peru, but still significant enough to be posted.
Vida0007 (
talk)
08:45, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose Not convinced that this plot is significant enough. As others have said - if this actually went ahead in any meaningful way I would have supported, but I'm looking at the big world news websites and not seeing this story reaching the front-page significance of, for example, the Peru item.
Sam Walton (
talk)
09:54, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support blurb without name. Largest such conspiracy in recent history. Covered in major news sources around the world. I would support a blurb without mentioning Mr. Reuss though per BLPCRIME. Regards
SoWhy10:43, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support these aren't just random people with ultra-extremist views, like
National Action in the UK for example, with no hope of ever achieving their goals. They were royals, judiciary figures, MPs, people in the military and people linked to the Kremlin. They posed a real and credible threat. I also supported nominations a while back previous attempted assassinations (e.g. Argentina) and coup attempts (e.g. Guinea-Bissau) and they are significant in that they change the world we live in, both in real terms and perception.
Abcmaxx (
talk)
10:57, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support - Significant political conspiracy - as much for the involvement of an AfD politician as for the titular prince. Front-page news here in the UK.
GenevieveDEon (
talk)
11:05, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose. A group of plotters have been arrested before they took any actual action. That's it, no obvious wider implications. This seems notable enough to merit an article, but not significant enough for an ITN blurb.
Modest Geniustalk11:47, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Suppory without indivual's name'. A notable event. Yes, fringe wierdos, but a substantial number of them with the apparent capability to do real damage. Article is in good shape. Individual shouldn't be named in blurb as per SoWhy. --12:26, 8 December 2022 (UTC) (Comment by
Template:U, apologies for not signing correctly)
Support A good article, and a great example of how our collation of reliable sources results in a more clear and complete narrative that is truly useful to the reader. Significance is sufficient.
75.188.228.163 (
talk)
12:34, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support, in large part because it's the best newly-written article for ITN I have seen in a long while. Goos example of the type of article that makes sense to feature. ~
Maplestrip/Mable (
chat)
12:43, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Leaning support with original blurb - Minor conspiracy, didn't amount to anything, but is making the news everywhere. The operation against the perpetrators is the largest in German history apparently, so I think it's enough to go up.
PrecariousWorlds (
talk)
12:56, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support Article is in good shape, reliable news sources are covering the story at a level that grants this significance. Checks every box. --
Jayron3213:18, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Strong oppose on the blurbs. All three blurbs label the 25 as terrorists, yet there is no mention. of a terrorist attack. Just think about the ones who have gone through real terror. In the sources provided, suspected members and supporters of a terrorist organization or terrorist network or of a terrorist threat is spoken about. Coup plot ok, terrorists no way.
Paradise Chronicle (
talk)
14:06, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
That's being overly pedantic, reliable sources describe the group as "terrorists" and a "terrorist network" and a "domestic terrorist organization" and similar language.
[70],
[71],
[72],
[73],
[74]. One does not actually have to succeed to be a terrorist. It's a statement of intent, not of success. --
Jayron3215:32, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
In addition, this appears to be how law enforcement treated the scenario, giving them the necessary powers to an operation that big.
Masem (
t)
20:50, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
@Jayron32 All your sources report on Suspected, not actual terrorists. Maybe
MOS:TERRORIST will help you. To make of a suspect a terrorist on the Wikipedia main page even before they were put on trial...of course I oppose this.
Paradise Chronicle (
talk)
23:23, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose This was a crackpot plot with no chance of taking control of the German government. There is no evidence there was going to be military support from neighboring nations nor that there was broad support for it among the public.
Thriley (
talk)
15:56, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment I will probably support if instead of "terrorists" it said "individuals" or some other neutral term. It's best not to assume anything about these individuals until the proceedings are over. Otherwise, I think the event deserves a mention in the news section.--
Ideophagous (
talk)
16:20, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Not this again. We're not a court of law. We're not trying these clowns. If RS call them terrorists, we can and should call them terrorists. We don't need to wait for a court, if we have a reasonable range of news media.
GenevieveDEon (
talk)
17:07, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support 1 of the alt blurbs This may not have gone as far as the Peruvian coup attempt, but it was a significant plot. Would the people who oppose posting this have had a similar amount of opposition to posting the
Gunpowder Plot if Wikipedia had existed in 1605?
Blaylockjam10 (
talk)
21:16, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
There's a significant difference between January 6 and this. For one, January 6 involved storming the US Capitol. I don't think we would have posted a plot that didn't involve destruction of property or loss of life. --
RockstoneSend me a message!01:11, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support inclusion as news event. Major reporting in numerous sources across the world. Germany's law enforcement treated it as a very severe and significant plot as is reported in international sources. Wiki article is detailed enough to link to on front page, could be expanded in detail. --
Rauisuchian (
talk)
23:29, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose -- for the same reasons that I would oppose posting a similar event that happened in the US. No, January 6 is not at all the same, since that actually was an armed mob attempting to overturn the results of an election, and resulted in destruction of property and deaths. --
RockstoneSend me a message!01:11, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
How is this similar to January 6? No one was hurt, so this is much closer to the Whitmer kidnapping plot, which we didn't post. --21:57, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
Right, exactly. If something *actually* happened, then sure, it would be worthy of posting, but literally, nothing of note happened other than initial planning, it sounds like. Good job on Germany's police force for disrupting the plot, but that also means it's not notable enough to post here. --
RockstoneSend me a message!22:37, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I think the
Gretchen Whitmer kidnapping plot is a flawed comparison. That happened at a subnational level, which meant that it was less likely to be posted. This happened at a national level. I can’t really think of a comparable event in Wikipedia’s era, but a pre-Wikipedia event it seems more comparable to is the
Gunpowder Plot.
Blaylockjam10 (
talk)
23:07, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Let's also add that unlike the US Germany is less centralised, did not have a controversial president with extreme views, certainly had very little civil unrest compared to the US since 1945, and gun violence and ownership is much much lower. Its politics is multi-party and much less adversarial than in US. Germany is also the birthplace of Nazism and started 2 worls wars, which brings about a while host of particular sensibilities. So apples and pears really.
Abcmaxx (
talk)
10:00, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support - major international coverage of key event (modern Germany's largest-ever anti-extremist raid) in populous, economically important country. Sure, it's not January 6; but it's also not comparable to Whitmer kidnapping plot, which was at the sub-national level and involved fewer conspirators.
Neutralitytalk18:08, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose Not only was there no actual coup attempt, but there's no evidence that any military or police unit or leader supported whatever this was....Even calling this a "coup plot" seems a bit of a stretch, as a "coup" involves members of the country's own military/security forces ousting the incumbent government. -
2003:CA:870A:8978:2579:D51A:4EE7:E43B (
talk)
22:16, 11 December 2022 (UTC)reply
There is nothing in the definition of coup or coup d'etat that even mentions military, police, leader, etc. But also the plotters include a lot of ex-military, and also ex-police and ex-politicians, and even the former aristocracy.
Nfitz (
talk)
03:17, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support Looking at the rank of so many of the members, and the seriousness and coverage on the issue, then it indeed should be posted.
Nfitz (
talk)
03:17, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Interesting. If there is a consensus, there's certainly a very narrow one. I'm nonetheless enjoying that ITN this past month has been erring on the side of posting stories rather than not posting. 🌈WaltCip-(
talk)13:45, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Wait until article is improved This is more than the dissolution of Congress. According to Castillo's announcement, a Constituent Congress has been convened, the judiciary and the Public Ministry will be "reorganized", a curfew is imposed... a full-fledged self coup. I would wait for the article to be expanded further.
_-_Alsor (
talk)
19:03, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Wait. Seems a significant
self coup, but the first reports were just two hours ago and the situation remains unclear. Give it some time for information to emerge and the article to catch up.
Modest Geniustalk19:07, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support, though it is likely to be moved to a new title, given that this is part of a broader political crisis, the article is sufficient in length, depth, and level of referencing, and the topic is being covered by reliable sources. I have no problem posting this on the main page. No problem waiting a day or so for the article to stabilize a bit, but even in the state it is in, it's quite a good Wikipedia article already. --
Jayron3219:09, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment A lot has happened:
The military is now opposed to Castillo
Congress removed Castillo from office
The Vice President Dina Boluarte is set to take her oath of office in about an hour
Title of article was updated accordingly due to these events
Post-posting support for the current blurb (which is a modified version of alt blurb 5). Was going to change my stance after seeing the alternative blurbs but this event has already been posted a few hours ago. Nevertheless, I support this, as this is a major political event in Peru (and South America).
Vida0007 (
talk)
08:42, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
In that case, oppose the current blurbs. The blurb should focus on the change of the head-of-state to Dina Boluarte, as this was not a successful coup.--🌈WaltCip-(
talk)20:41, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment Alt blurb 3 is now up regarding Dina Boluarte becoming president. Also, "Dina Boluarte October 2022 (cropped).jpg" could possibly be used as well.--
WMrapids (
talk)
20:49, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support but wait; considering how many unknowns exist right now, I am not a fan of any of those blurbs. We should know a lot more about this rapidly developing situation in the coming hours.--
JohnHawkinsBois (
talk)
21:29, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment I know this has already happened, but I feel like we need two separate blurbs here, even if they relate to the same event. I think wrapping the ascension of Boluarte and the impeachment of Castillo are events that should be isolated into their own blurbs.
DarkSide830 (
talk)
21:31, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support ITN/R now, of course. I agree with DarkSide830 that this is a lot of detail to put into one blurb. Is there precedent for a two-sentence blurb?
Davey2116 (
talk)
22:09, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support Qualifies under ITN/R and article covers in sufficient depth. I support blurb IV blurb V (Edited, prefer the newly added blurb since it reads chronologically). --
Pithon314 (
talk)
22:13, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Posted (modified) Alt blurb 5. Removed the bit about Castillo being arrested as though referenced, at least one reliable source is saying it's unclear if that actually happened or not. --
KTC (
talk)
23:59, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Question if this is significant because incumbents are generally reelected and we have two new people, then shuoldnt the blurb include mention of who they are replacing and if they resigned vs lost re-election?
QueensanditsCrazy (
talk)
17:32, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The two are part of the Federal Council after their election. The rotating head is elected each year and in a separate election from within the 7 Federal councilors. And the president is only the president of the Federal Council, not Switzerland. Maybe worded too simply. The presidency doesn't hold such a valor in Switzerland as in other countries. The Federal Council is more a consensus kind of Government.
Paradise Chronicle (
talk)
20:36, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose (1) The Federal Council is indirectly elected by the
Swiss parliament, with each seat already reserved for a political party. (2) This is only a by-election for 2 seats.
Joofjoof (
talk) 10:55, 7 December 2022 (UTC) Weak support in light of responses. Still, I agree with Modest Genius' comment below - partial Council elections should not be considered ITNR.
Joofjoof (
talk)
00:25, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
ITNR does not require a popular election. (Many heads of state or government are not, in fact, elected in any meaningful sense, but merely seize power.). As explained above, in the Swiss system, the by-elections are the elections that are of political significance, not the general elections, counterintuitively. Sandstein 11:02, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
To clarify, the issue is that the Federal Council is equivalent to the government
Cabinet in other countries. Have we previously posted when new ministers are confirmed?
Joofjoof (
talk)
11:28, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The Swiss system is unique in that the Cabinet (the seven ministers) are also collectively the head of government and head of state; they are not subordinate to another officeholder such as a prime minister or president. Sandstein 12:22, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Except it isn't really. The Federal Council serves as a small-size cabinet (only 7 members), but it is also a collegial presidency (decisions are taken by consensus or internal vote, not by a prime-minister). Furthermore, once elected, members cannot be removed until the end of their four-year term and are usually re-elected until they step down; this is more akin to heads of states than ministers. Finally, this is the first change in composition since 2018 (in four years), meanwhile the UK saw 4 prime ministers in that time range which (I suppose) all had their blurb.
Julio974◆ (
Talk-
Contribs)
12:24, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I would argue that 1. Many heads of governments are elected by the legislature as well (British PM or German chancellor for example), and 2. It's still the first seat change since 2018 (four years), and here two seats were changed at the same time (more than average). The last regular elections in 2019 actually saw all councillors re-elected handily (with only a minor challenge against Cassis), and it might happen again in the next one in 2023, so this could be the largest change in the executive of Switzerland in maybe five or six years. I'd argue it counts.
Julio974◆ (
Talk-
Contribs)
12:19, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Weak support. Firstly, I don't think this qualifies as ITNR. Switzerland is (almost?) unique in having a collective head of government; ITNR would therefore apply to replacement of the entire council (which I appreciate doesn't happen in practice). It seems silly to apply ITNR to every change to the council membership. This issue only applies to whether the event is ITNR though, we can still consider it as a non-recurring event. Only two of the seven members were affected, the replacements had to be from the same parties, and there was no direct involvement by voters. So this isn't a very competitive or popular election. But I take the point that it's equivalent to the indirect elections of other heads of government. Whether replacement of 2/7ths of the head of government is sufficiently notable is a borderline judgement call. At normal times I might have said 'no', but we're in need of new blurbs - the most recent is a week old. The article is merely adequate, not great - it could do with some more prose on the results/reactions, and on the policies of the candidates. But it does meet our minimum requirements. I've added an altblurb.
Modest Geniustalk14:41, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I should note that being listed on ITNR is not specifically a requirement to post any item. I know this is claimed as an ITNR posting, but we're also allowed to post things just on the merits of the specific nomination, without asking for pre-approval from ITNR. --
Jayron3219:20, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose blurb per my questions above, perhaps a rewrite to "Rosti and Schneider are elected to the SFC, replacing X and Y who (resigned/stepped down/lost re-election)" or something like that - but content is probably fine
QueensanditsCrazy (
talk)
19:45, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
It's the very first sentence, as I said. "By-elections to the Swiss Federal Council were be held..."
The second paragraph has the sort of tense errors which are typical of articles started in anticipation of an event, "only SVP candidates are standing for Maurer's seat and only SP candidates stand for Sommaruga's"
I could go on but the point is that the article needs careful, line-by-line proof-reading.
Comment: I am really glad to see the page nominated for ITN! I wrote some of it in a rush and I apologize for the mistakes, I re-read the page (
Template:Ping) and corrected them as well as added even more information as well as aftermath, reactions, and added more journalistic sources; the article still needs information on the attribution of federal departments (which will happen in the next few hours as I'm posting this). I think this page would also greatly benefit from being re-read and sourced by a german-speaking wikipedian.
Julio974◆ (
Talk-
Contribs)
12:04, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose The nominated article is orange-tagged, has no relevant update in its long lead and is not linked in the proposed new blurb. Maybe the existing blurb should be updated with this new development but this proposal needs work.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
09:15, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Leaning support - The protests are basically over, so having the resolution of the ordeal put up might be for the best. But, as Andrew said, article needs work.
PrecariousWorlds (
talk)
10:10, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Not to suggest that everyone in China is happy with this outcome, and that there won't be protests in the future, but generally, it looks as if this is the end of this specific chapter of Chinese politics.
PrecariousWorlds (
talk)
10:16, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose per Andrew above. Article quality is not good enough for main page. If someone wants this posted, they are going to need to do some work to bring it up to minimum standards. --
Jayron3213:26, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment Can this article still be expanded? It has citations, though there are only six of them, and five of those come from the same site (the International Ice Hockey Federation's site).
Vida0007 (
talk)
19:49, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment: I know I’m an aviation geek myself but I’ll stay neutral for now, at least until someone gives a more compelling argument on either side. To be honest if we post an ITN for this, it may also set a precedent for end of production for other less prominent things and well, just create a butterfly effect. But also given how iconic the 747 is in the world of aviation for the past 50 years it also seems worthy to post an ITN too.
SBS6577P (
talk)
13:01, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support, article is FA quality, most major news sources are covering the story. Checks every box. Would be proud to direct readers to this article. --
Jayron3213:21, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support - seeing global coverage and notable within the relevant field. I don't think this should set a precedent for posting less prominent production ends, but products around this level of popularity should see some recognition. As an aside, I think it should use a more modern photograph than one from 1980. For example,
File:Qantas Boeing 747-438ER VH-OEI at LAX.jpg is from 2010. Quite a few to choose from in
this category.
Anarchyte (
talk)
13:40, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support – Feels good to feature an FA. I would like a bit more writing about how and why the 747 ended production, but this is good as it stands too. Article seems recently updated in general, with data for last month as well :) ~
Maplestrip/Mable (
chat)
14:49, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Is most news significant in the grand scheme of things? Does the earthquake in West Java have any lasting impact beyond being a tragedy, for example? 🌈WaltCip-(
talk)18:09, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
One of the issues here is that this is a commercial entity, and thus giving Boeing that type of focus does feel a bit promotional, which we should strive to avoid. As noted by OP, this would suggest other major EOL of commercial productions should be included. This is different from saying, for example, NASA launching the last shuttle mission, as that is not a commercial element.
Masem (
t)
20:48, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment - If this is not posted, then it gives further proof to the principle that it doesn't matter how excellent or well-updated an article is; if it doesn't meet the arbitrary significance threshold, it will never get posted to ITN. So I don't know
why people ever thought that article quality was somehow a mitigating factor that would allow less significant items to be posted.--🌈WaltCip-(
talk)18:08, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support. End of a long period of production of an iconic aircraft. ITN is getting to the point where nothing is being posted and that's sad to see.
331dot (
talk)
20:56, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support blurb, no comment on article quality. The 747 is a aircraft design that's iconic, extremely recognisable worldwide, and the end of something that's part of the airline industry for a very long time. No, we shouldn't post every EOL products, but I think this one is significant enough to be an exception. --
KTC (
talk)
00:09, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Did we blurb the discontinuation of Windows XP? It would've definitely qualified for a blurb in my eyes, but I recognize that the end-of-support for that was a rather gradual process. I don't know if it had as clear a (symbolic) end as the discontinuation of a physical product like the 747. ~
Maplestrip/Mable (
chat)
10:21, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Windows is still produced, just not Windows 7. It's like the difference between the first version of the 747 and the last one(the 747-8).
331dot (
talk)
10:26, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support - Holds an influential place in aviation history as the first line of widebody jetliners and carried billions of people around the world. SounderBruce04:13, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Template:U Who is advertising anything? The aircraft is no longer being produced. No one here is saying "Buy a 747 now before they're gone!". They're already gone. That's the whole point here. Are you saying that any mention of any sort of product is barred from ITN?
331dot (
talk)
10:24, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The
company that makes the 747 plane is the company being advertised/promoted. As noted by others, the company is still making planes, just not this particular model. Just as a change in Windows version should not be posted to ITN, a change in plane model should also not be posted.
Chrisclear (
talk)
12:41, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Template:U I don't see where it says "buy Boeing planes" or "Boeing is a great company" in the blurb, maybe I missed it. This isn't just some random model of plane, which is why it's hit the news.
331dot (
talk)
14:59, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Wikipedia does advertise. We routinely use sponsored, commercial names for sports venues rather than the official, usually geographic names, even though the latter would be far more useful to readers.
HiLo48 (
talk)
10:28, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
That's an issue to discuss with the venue, not us.
WP:COMMONNAME as well. In many places(mostly the US I guess) the sponsored name is the official name. Mentioning a name is not advertising any more than mentioning "HiLo48" advertises HiLo48. In any event, that's a side issue compared to mentioning a product, which is apparently barred from ITN now.
331dot (
talk)
10:34, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm obviously referring to places where there is an official name that mentions a location, and a sponsored one that doesn't. This is quite common around the world. Wikipedia inevitably uses the unhelpful, sponsored name.
HiLo48 (
talk)
23:31, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support - The end of an era with not-insignificant implications for the future, in a world where 43.5% of commercial airliners are Boeing aircraft. Not incidentally, it means we can link to a featured article on the main page. What's not to like about that?--🌈WaltCip-(
talk)13:29, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Neutral Truly the end of an era but also agree with GenevieveDEon. This would have been more ITN worthy if it is the final flight of the 747, but it isn't. Personally, I can see this being more qualified for the DYK page.
Vida0007 (
talk)
13:45, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
That's so far in the future jet fuel might be all-biofuel by then. The 747 will probably fly for decades and maybe fly last for a 3rd world airline poorer than the airlines who buy new planes (even some of the 3rd world airline planes were bought from Boeing or Airbus). Late stage jetliner model is anticlimactic, they try not to fly passengers with them even in countries where life is cheap. Maybe sometimes they have no other choice than to do it occasionally for logistics reasons but if it's cargo at least only 2-3 people will die if they crash and if it's a charter flight at least the passengers knew what they were getting into and traded an older plane for cheap tickets. Eventually even that has to stop cause after a certain number of pressurizations and depressurizations the plane can burst at altitude. This happened in the 80s I think (short Hawaii to Hawaii flights all day for many years). Many feet of ceiling just disappeared, hundreds of miles an hour sea level-equivalent wind, instant fog, a flight attendant blew out and fell miles to their death.
Sagittarian Milky Way (
talk)
22:46, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Even more importantly, ITN is not "front page news" and is not a news feed. It serves to highlight quality articles about recent events which are covered by news sources. This ticks every box in that regard. In Wikipedia, we follow sources, not feelings. That you feel some way about something is irrelevant. Reliable sources do cover this story, and we do have a quality article. --
Jayron3215:17, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Post-posting comment this should be seen very much as a one-off, and not setting a precedent for other end of production events. The B747 is IMvHO the 2nd most significant aircraft after the DC-3. The only other aircraft that would remotely approach this level of significance is the B737, which is not likely to cease production for the forseeable future.
Mjroots (
talk)
20:08, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
(Attention needed) Cristina Fernández de Kirchner jailed for corruption
Support once updated/improved Former head (and current VP) of a G20 state heading to prison is certainly a notable-enough event for the FP.
The Kip (
talk)
01:56, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support I can see how this is huge news in Argentina. Article is in an ok state, updating aside, though that one “unbalanced viewpoint” tag should be looked into.
Juxlos (
talk)
Comment: There is an important thing to clarify: the trial had this result, right, but there will be an appeal once the full sentence is delivered (we got the important part today, but the judges must still clarify a lot of technical details before the case can be formally closed). Until those appeals are over, in many years, CFK will not be serving time in prison. If this is newsworthy, it will only be because of the sentence itself. See
hereCambalachero (
talk)
03:30, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
At ITN when dealing with highly prominent criminal cases, we typically post convictions, not sentences. In this case the sentence was more or less handed down with the verdict, so I included it with the nom. We do not typically hold off posting a conviction based on the likelihood of an appeal. In fact, I can't remember a single instance of that happening. All of which said, the article quality as it relates to coverage of CFK's legal issues is so poor (as of this comment) that if I were voting, I'd oppose my own nomination. -
Ad Orientem (
talk)
04:00, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose The Guardian reports that "though she is unlikely to serve any prison time soon as she has immunity due to her government roles and is expected to launch a lengthy appeals process that could take years." So, this is an ongoing situation rather than a done deal. And, in any case, the nomination states clearly that quality is lacking. BTW, notice that we're blurbing
Anwar Ibrahim as the new Malaysian PM. That politician was actually jailed due to accusations that some say were politically motivated and just a show trial. The legal system is a political weapon in many places and unpicking the details to get at the truth isn't easy.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
09:32, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support. The conviction is not an ongoing situation. We do not wait for appeals to be exhausted before posting a conviction. If the conviction is tossed, that can be posted too. A former head of state and current officeholder being convicted of a crime and barred from public office(as many want to do with Donald Trump) is significant, even if it is later thrown out(which is likely years away).
331dot (
talk)
10:21, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose for now. Article has a an orange tag in the "Image" section that needs fixing. Article mentions nothing about the case except a single sentence on the conviction. I would expect a significant several paragraphs covering the investigation, the charges, the trial, and the conviction. If this is going to be posted on the main page, it needs a lot of work. --
Jayron3213:24, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support in principle, oppose on article quality. The conviction of a former president (and current vice-president) on serious charges is significant, and 6 years is a serious sentence. Conviction is the relevant point for ITN to post - we don't wait for all possible appeals. However, the article has three orange-level tags on it, and contains very little information on the case. The 'legal charges' section seems to be referring to the early stages of this case, but in future tense and has no information on the result. The entire update
[77] is two near-duplicate sentences, containing no more information than is in the blurb. There needs to be at least a full paragraph of referenced prose, and the orange tags need to be addressed, before we can post in ITN.
Modest Geniustalk17:58, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support Very high-profile conviction and the article is okay, although there’s currently one subsection that has been orange-tagged.
Vida0007 (
talk)
08:47, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support information on her legal issues I think is quite sufficient. If anyone wants to know more about them, some cases have their own Wiki articles. Orange tag should be removed.
_-_Alsor (
talk)
00:08, 13 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Shrug - The article looks to have been updated. I'm just not sure whether or not it's the level of detail we would expect to post something to the Main Page.--🌈WaltCip-(
talk)14:12, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The article is rated start-class in four Wikiprojects, and stub-class in a fifth. So it's difficult for me to tell if this is a stub or not, and we generally don't post stubs. 🌈WaltCip-(
talk)14:34, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose It's a new criminal code with about 600 laws about numerous moral offences such as blasphemy, insulting the president, &c. We'd need to see a relevant article and summarise the whole thing, not just cherry-pick some sensational detail.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
17:30, 6 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support - Highly accomplished actress, a true joy on Cheers, Veronica's Closet, and many film roles. Filmography now fully sourced and updated. A few other subsections still needs sourcing, but the article overall looks good and I support it.--
SitcomyFan (
talk)
06:52, 6 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I would remove the DWTS tables, as those season show pages summarize all performances. But the Awards table still needs citations.
Masem (
t)
13:21, 6 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I have sourced parts of the award table; finding list of nominations is hard, as the awards are old, some no longer exist, and some lists just include winners, such as
Saturn Awards. Where can I find sources for these? If sources can't be found, should the awards without sources be removed?
Hanif Al Husaini (
talk)
23:39, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I got the Saturn Awards sourced through
Newspapers.com. The others I can't source. I've never even heard of "Viewers for Quality Television ⋅Awards", whatever that is. Can we consider this one good enough? –
Muboshgu (
talk)
04:30, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I think it looks good enough. There's only a handful unsourced now, mostly obscure awards, can either be left as is imo or removed and added to talk page for insertion later if/when sources found. Will see what others say but that's my opinion anyway. Good job on sourcing the others.
SitcomyFan (
talk)
10:33, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
For some second-rate awards that we can't find sources for. Not everything needs to be sourced for an ITN RD article, this should be good enough. –
Muboshgu (
talk)
02:20, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I added some sources to these awards after spending time looking. Many of these are IMDb sources. Now I know usually IMDb is not considered a RS, but is it sufficent for awards like these? If not, please remove these or let me know and I'll remove them. Sprinkled among these results, I did find a few that might be considered reliable - photos of her attending one of the awards from getty images and a Yahoo article. And there were a couple of AVclub sources for a couple of the awards that might be considered ok. Overall, if only one or two of these are considered RS, or if none of them are, I understand. Please let me know. If these aren't suitable and none can be found, then I repeat what I said above - maybe we should put them on the talk page and remove from article itself?
SitcomyFan (
talk)
07:23, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I've sourced one of these and as things stand there are now no CN tags or other tags in the article. There is one minor citing error I'm not sure how to fix but I'm sure another editor can. I also added some sources to some other sentences that weren't tagged but just extra sources I found. I could not find a source for one cn statement so I removed it and added it to talk page so it can be put back if a source can be found. I'm sure it's true as it corresponds to facts stated in other sources from RS like Washington Post but as I couldn't find a source that actually stated it, I erred on side of caution and removed it. If you notice any other major issues with the article let me know and if I have time I might tackle it again.
SitcomyFan (
talk)
13:18, 6 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support A part of the amazing set of drivers from France in the early 1980s and a two-time Grand Prix Winner. Article may need more references but seems good enough to publish in my opinion
Crecy1346 (
talk)
16:58, 4 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support He was a prolific F1 driver in his time and won several GPs. The article needs just a few more references but he's a well-respected figure in the world of motorsports and deserves a spot.
UberLordMetagross (
talk) 1:30, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
Oppose The plane has not "become operational" – it's still in development, has not even flown yet and is not expected to enter service for years. This "unveiling" is not really news because the project has been ongoing for years – it's just a PR stunt – a photo-op. And we still don't have much detail because the details are classified. And the general background is not new. I started another article over 7 years ago –
Renovation of the nuclear weapon arsenal of the United States – about the long-term program which started in the Obama administration and has been continued by subsequent administrations. The new bomber is part of the
nuclear triad, which is also not new; it's a long-standing strategy. Even the name of the plane is not new – it harks back to the
Doolittle raid. Hidebound militaries always love refighting the last war by clinging to obsolete weapon systems but what we see in Ukraine is that cheap drones and missiles are what works best now while manned aircraft, ships and tanks have not been effective.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
07:11, 4 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I added a lot more info and sources. It might still need some work in narrative flow but I think it should be almost ready now if you and other editors would like to take another look.
SitcomyFan (
talk)
08:01, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Update 1 More info and another link and some more sources have been added to the article. There might still be more to add if other editors can find additional sources or someone who is more of an expert on Broadway. Am looking for more info/sources, will update below.
SitcomyFan (
talk)
09:11, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The article is no longer a stub, but still needs work. I gave links to operas, as many were missing. I am sorry, but don't understand the last sentence. The article would profit from some chronology, - why that last sentence after we read already that he died, and why a reference to the university where he studied three paragraphs later? Among others. I'm not the one to do that, knowing too little, but ping me when that is done, - he deserves to be mentioned. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk)
09:35, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I think those issues and the chronology has been fixed now in latest update/restructure/copyedit. Let me know if you see any other issues, thanks!
SitcomyFan (
talk)
09:45, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Update 2 - a lot more info has been added from new sources, including his actual date of birth, home state/birth place, date he joined his church, marriage, a quote from an interview on his career transition, and some more info on his career overall. It's quite a bit fuller and more detailed now.
SitcomyFan (
talk)
09:43, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
(continued from above) much better, but I still have no idea what "His onstage performance came Off-Broadway, in Heather Christian's Oratorio For Living Things." means (English not my native language), we still have NAU in career, so if he played Schicchi etc. at the university it should be there (makes a big difference!). You may also want to get ref numbers in numeric order. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk)
10:02, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
It's not specified in sources whether role at NAU opera happened while he was a student there. He could have returned to perform after graduating once his career took off. I know there is an article that he returned to Arizona when in Phantom. So I think it's best to leave it in career for now unless a source specifies it was an undergraduate performance. Most of his other performances that it is listed with happened after his career took off in New York.
SitcomyFan (
talk)
10:10, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
To try to deal with this issue, I've taken Early Career and Later Career subheadings out and just left it as Career. I grouped the roles together where chronology is known, then put the rest under Other roles, including the NAU one. I'll have a better look in a bit at his off-site links to see if I can get a better idea of dates. But overall I think the article is in very good shape now. Hope other editors agree! Thanks for all your input.
SitcomyFan (
talk)
10:13, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support. It qualifies for RD. I commented out La bohème in the Broadway corner. If that was a mistake, please just bring it back. If it belongs to opera, please list it there, but best with a role, theatre and year. I linked the author of Oratorio of Living Things, - an article about the piece which is mentioned with two refs in her lead would be better, and seems possible. (Then remove the link to the author.) Any review would make the article better. I still think that Gianni Schicchi - a giant role - is a bit out of place among the others, but that's probably just me. Good luck for making it today. I'll go out now and won't influence any more. (Otherwise I'd look deeper into the sources, to find out myself when and where he was Gianni Schicchi - my favourite opera, and article written by my favourite editor.) --
Gerda Arendt (
talk)
11:14, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks for all your help and input. I moved some of those roles to early roles. It seems he first appeared in the Puccini opera in 2013 but looking at his website (which I've now added to External Links) he may have later performed in it again somewhere else and while the sources list he played the title role, a few other characters seem to be listed. I'm not familiar with the opera in detail so I'm a bit confused. But given one of these performances was in 2013 and the reference to NAU, I think it's likely they may (at least some of them) have happened before he moved to New York or just after he graduated in 2012 so I listed them as early roles for now - this can always be corrected or clarified later, especially if he did perform any of them again later in New York.
I did find one more interesting thing - a 2019 role and a New York times review of it which called him "excellent" in it. I added it to the article too.
SitcomyFan (
talk)
11:54, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I found
a ref for the phantom announcement, don't know how if you want it. I added a ref for Gianni Schicchi early and the 2013 roles don't need to be mentioned, the second character doesn't even sing. I added one One more Mozart role from there. Please take care not to copy from sources, - the line about his last performance was too close until I changed it. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk)
18:38, 10 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks for the ping. I wasn't familiar with him, and his article barely touches on his career in game design, but aside from his likely most successful game Third Reich, BGG says he has quite a few credits. I started the article for
Spies! if not others.
BOZ (
talk)
12:06, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The Gamers Guide to Third Reich which I had back in 1986 had an opening article of Designers Notes (probably written by Don Greenwood but I don't recall). It said that Prados' original design was division-level, making it "an exercise in finger dexterity". Besides bringing the scale up to corps (or Soviet armies) the developer also had to "water down the airpower to manageable proportions". So although some of Prados' concepts - BRPs, quarterly turns, armor exploitation - remain in the game to this day, it had required significant development to get even the First Edition to press, before we get onto the subsequent redesigns (Third Edition 1981, A3R in 1992) which were mainly fixing historical realism problems (Prados disliked A3R and produced his own rival version in 2001 - I have a copy somewhere but have never actually played it). I've no idea how common this is for game designs.
Paulturtle (
talk)
21:46, 7 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I have expanded his work as a historian as well as added a new section on his wargaming. Obits appeared in both New York Times and Washington Post.
Guinness323 (
talk)
02:25, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The citation needed tags were resolved since my post. Please see the edit history of the article. There is still one unreferenced section to source. It is also unnecessary to ping me.
Flibirigit (
talk)
23:07, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Non-oppose Actually not in too bad a state source wise, I only see a few spots in need of help. The article is also pretty holistic as far as his career. Not good enough for support, not bad enough for oppose = non-oppose.
Curbon7 (
talk)
07:51, 4 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I've added some more info and sources to the article. Today is the last day for the nomination (it was nominated late) so if you or any other editors have time to take another look at it today and let me know if you feel it is ready/almost ready, how much more work it might need. I don't feel sufficiently qualified to add filmography tables and I think I've added quite a lot to her Career section - most of the information contained in sources. I feel it is sufficient now for ITN but interested to see what others think.
SitcomyFan (
talk)
13:51, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I've added some more info and sources to the article. Today is the last day for the nomination (it was nominated late) so if you or any other editors have time to take another look at it today and let me know if you feel it is ready/almost ready, how much more work it might need. I don't feel sufficiently qualified to add filmography tables and I think I've added quite a lot to her Career section - most of the information contained in sources. I feel it is sufficient now for ITN but interested to see what others think.
SitcomyFan (
talk)
13:51, 9 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support One cn tag and one unreliable source tag, but neither are for any particularly controversial information. It's good enough for the main page. --
Jayron3216:28, 2 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support to reopen. I'd like to see this posted, and it's probably good enough to post, but it would be nice if the article was a little bit longer.
NorthernFalcon (
talk)
19:23, 4 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose on quality issues. The list article process is under 5k of text, and there's nothing to describe why these lists are important beyond "a bunch of critics named them". While the film article is better, the list article doesn't explain why this choice is so relevant/important. --
Masem (
t)
21:03, 4 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose, on notability. There are hundreds of "top 100 movies of all time" lists, and this list is just as obscure as the rest of them. In particular, there has been almost no coverage of this event in major news sources.
Nsk92 (
talk)
00:42, 5 December 2022 (UTC)reply
"This must be a real horrorshow film if you're so keen on my viddying it."
Oppose Has anyone here actually seen this supposedly greatest movie? Notice that it does not appear anywhere in this
previous poll of polls. Having got the gist of it, it's easy to see why it's the sort of movie that people walk out of. The joke seems to be that the audience is made to suffer over three hours of dreariness to make them appreciate how stultifying domestic chores are. Today's TikTok generation would soon be on their phones or out the door unless you forced them to watch in the manner of A Clockwork Orange(right).
Andrew🐉(
talk)
09:36, 5 December 2022 (UTC)reply
This movie was listed 51st on 2012's list, and has always been listed highly by "BBC's the 100 Greatest Films", "TSPDT's 1,000 Greatest Films", "1001 Movies You Must See Before You Die", etc. I had heard of it as a film buff, but hadn't seen it because, yeah, it does look like a difficult movie to watch. It didn't come out of nowhere, but it's indeed not a pop choice. ~
Maplestrip/Mable (
chat)
10:37, 5 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Template:Tq For what it's worth: yes. I watched it back in 2018. It was actually showing in a small cinema in the city I lived in at the time, and a fair share of the audience was young people (though of course there is some selection bias since these were people who paid to watch the movie in the first place). The reason I decided to watch it is that it appears on the 1001 Movies You Must See Before You Die list, sure, but it's not that obscure of a movie.
TompaDompa (
talk)
05:18, 6 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose currently. It's not quite at the level of depth I would like this article to be at for a front-page feature. I agree with Masem; an explanation for the list's significance would be particularly useful. ~
Maplestrip/Mable (
chat)
10:37, 5 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Support. One of the most notable rankings of films, released only once per decade, with a somewhat surprising first-place pick. There are only so many ways for the arts to be represented in ITN, and this is one of them. --
Tamzincetacean needed (she|they|xe)15:38, 5 December 2022 (UTC)reply