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Did you know?" column on
July 5, 2010. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that some of the suspects in an
alleged network of Russian spies planted in the
United States were paired as couples and had children together to help maintain their covert status? | |||||||||
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"including an incident cited where a pair of spies met on a park bench with one asking "Excuse me, but haven't we met in California, last summer" to which the other was to respond "No, I think it was the Hamptons"." Source: "Ten arrested, accused of spying for Russia", June 28, 2010. Accessed June 28, 2010.
This corresponds to an FBI setup described in the complaint on Anna Chapman and Mikhail Semenko (Page 12) and leads me to believe that the MSNBC has misreported the document. I have therefore removed the statement. Einhov ( talk) 00:01, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
Are these people Russian nationals? What were their motives? Valleyofdawn ( talk) 08:18, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
“ | The arrest comes weeks after Peláez wrote comments against the U.S. government and supported the idea of the use of a nuclear bomb to solve the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico. Friends of the Pelaez family argued that it is possible that the arrest is happening due to political reasons and discarded the “spy argument”. | ” |
According to an AP article, "Chapman took an apartment a block from Wall Street". [4] I have information that Anna Chapman lived at 20 Exchange Place paying $8500/mo in rent for an apartment, but am having trouble finding a reliable source. I can find two links online to her at that address, but neither state that she lived there:
Does anyone have any reliable sources related to her residence? Thanks. -- ChrisRuvolo ( t) 15:48, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
This title has got to be the least intuitive I have ever seen. There has to be a better choice out there. Abductive ( reasoning) 02:13, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
The title was one of many possible ones when the news first broke. No one stood out. Now there is the 2010 Russia - United States spy swap. That will be the thing remembered. This should be merged there unless the article becomes so long that sub-articles on the Russian planning and what info they did get becomes an article. Actually, the 2010 title may need modification if the British get their man back. Also research needs to be seen if the people the Americans are getting are spies or not. Gary Powers was a pilot, not a spy. Suomi Finland 2009 ( talk) 03:39, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
Something funny happened. There was a tag suggesting a merge to the 2010 Russia USA article but later someone else merge the target, not the subject article. I will correct this error. I think it was an honest mistake. Suomi Finland 2009 ( talk) 15:08, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
This is a better title than Illegals Program? Why do we have to always change these titles to make them longer and more complex... Bsimmons666 ( talk) 15:19, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved by rough consensus, but no prejudice against future move requests to other titles. Regards, Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 00:17, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
2010 Russia-United States prisoner swap → Illegals Program. The current titleedited for clarity is an absolute Wikipedia classic, our own coining with no outside use, that is totally meaningless. I would swap it straight back, but I want to get a consensus on the best name. I think the "Illegals Program" sums it up the best as that's a brief name given by the FBI. I'd settle for " 2010 Russian spy scandal" if "Illegals Program" is deemed to be too obscure; "swap" is too casual, and the spy exchange is just the end of the scandal not the whole topic. Focussing on it in the title is a mistake. Fences& Windows 19:26, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
This RM is too confusing because there is not a clear proposal. Some, including me, prefer a move to the 2010 Russian - United States spy swap. If this is not done, I prefer to leave it alone rather than using the obscure Illegals Program title. But others' preferences are not clear because the RM proposal is not as clearly written as it could have been. Suomi Finland 2009 ( talk) 19:42, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
They admitted to being spies, can we remove the word alleged now? Beam 20:26, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
The last paragraph of the Background section mentions someone named Alexander Sypachev as being one of "two of the other individuals who would be included" in the exchange. That particular sentence references a BBC web page [7] but that doesn't mention anyone by that name. A yahoo page [8] found via a google search does mention him but not Gennady Vasilenko. Why the discrepancy? tildetildetildetilde —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.164.77.12 ( talk) 20:44, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
Should brighten things up :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.64.132.225 ( talk) 20:46, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
Skimming the article, it doesn't seem to tell what those spies actually did. What kind of sensitive information did they gather? The article does, however, read: No charges were offered that the individuals involved had gained access to classified material, though contacts had been made with a former intelligence official and with a scientist involved in developing bunker buster bombs. It is well-known that many 'spies' use a lot of time for boring tasks such as gathering news articles and write political analysis. If, for some reason, the accurate charges and details haven't been revealed in he court case, this should at least be mentioned. There might even be some reason behind the claim that some of them were prosecuted for their political activities. Every major power would try and expel foreigners if they become difficult. I'm not saying this is the case, but I would always be skeptical. -- Sasper ( talk) 23:30, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
i.e. intelligence agencies ownz your constitutions. -- Leladax ( talk) 23:41, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
Can we find free pictures of the aircraft involved in the swap? I did not find anything in Commons:Category:Boeing 767-200 from Vision Airlines. The Russian jet may be less camera shy. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 01:35, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Should we add something about the eleventh agent's case being unresolved? This CBS news article posted in the last hour makes mention of the fact that the missing agent's case is still pending, according to the U.S. Department of Justice.-- Forward Unto Dawn 04:18, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Could this article in The New York Times be used as a source in the section on political and other ramifications? Or is it just a James Bond screenwriter fantasizing about his favorite film? If this opinion piece is any guide to American public opinion, then certainly this incident has not given rise to a wave of Cold War type Russophobic paranoia, quite the opposite.
-- Petri Krohn ( talk) 08:34, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
It is unclear in the article of what happened to the spies kids. Did they join the parents back to Russia or stayed in the US? Could someone please clarify that. 85.224.210.249 ( talk) 11:25, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
The parents were pressured. You confess or you will never see your kids again. The spies with the kids confessed very soon afterwards compared to the ones without kids. As part of the agreement, the kids were sent to relatives in Russia even before the swap. I know because I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express! Suomi Finland 2009 ( talk) 16:58, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Wrong. All children who were born in the USA could have remained there. They were given a choice, and seems they choose to go home for now instead. They will remain US citizens so can return any time, in theory. Too lazy though to dig exact media reports on this topic but there were some. Egh0st ( talk) 05:32, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
Not true - the two "Canadian" kids (Foley and Heathfiled's kids) have been unable to re-enter either the US or Canada. It is being argued that they got their citizenship under false pretences and that citizenship is not granted to children born while their parents are working for a foreign government (ie the law that means diplomat's kids don't get citizenship of where they are born) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.161.165.22 ( talk) 04:03, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
I'll have to do some digging but IIRC per the NY Times and WaPo, Juan Lazaro Jr. (if his father's last name really isn't Lazaro is he technically still a junior?) now lives with his brother in upstate NY and the Foley kids are staying with family friends in the DC area. All the younger kids have migrated to Russia. ip.address.conflict (too lazy to sign in right now) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.159.59.2 ( talk) 13:51, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Rather than referring to the other agents as “Western”—an ambiguous term at best, and a ridiculously outdated one at least—why not refer to them as NATO or Anglo-American agents? (It wouldn’t be appropriate to refer to them as U.S. agents, since at least one of them was an agent of the U.K.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grjako ( talk • contribs) 15:51, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
3 of the men are agents. Sutyagin is a human rights prisoner. The 4th man is a mystery. His article was deleted and purged. Suomi Finland 2009 ( talk) 20:08, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/russia_spy_arrests It's an interesting read. Read it and decide what is useful for this article.
Suomi Finland 2009 ( talk) 17:02, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Why is this article semi-protected? 129.120.4.2 ( talk) 20:25, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Who is he, and why doesn't he have a section along with the other 3 spies? He can't be any less notable than the other three. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.81.10.16 ( talk) 01:08, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Based on available information Gennadiy Vasilenko is a former KGB intellegence officer convicted for illegal posession of firearms. However, in 1988 it was suspected that he is US agent and he was arrested but then nothing was proven and he was realeased. [9]. By the way, Vasilenko was arrested for the firearms violation in 2005 and was sentenced to 3 years so it is unclear why he was still in prison! Olegwiki ( talk) 13:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
You are correct. Not only firearms though, a possession of explosive materials as well. And one more correction -- he was released in 1990 but he was sacked from KGB and his rank lowered. Basically that means they didn't have any serious proof but were certain he was somehow involved. Practically no reliable info whatsoever on his relation to the deal or to any western intelligence. Even in the Russian online media. Egh0st ( talk) 05:55, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
So on one side there're all proven spies, on the other side they're all alleged spies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.80.29.108 ( talk) 09:00, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Sigh. It's really not that hard to grasp. A lot of the sources are specifically stating that they are "spies". But nothing in those sources qualifies them as spies, either officially or unofficially, especially as what they did was in no way spying. So we're torn between the facts and what the sources say. 58.7.174.233 ( talk) 07:58, 19 February 2012 (UTC) Harlequin
Described as such in many media reports, and on the front page of Wikipedia currently. Not familiar with any swaps of this size, just diplomats being expelled. Any clues and is it relevant enough to be in the text of the article? MartinSFSA ( talk) 15:22, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
This article has been moved to (or renamed) Illegals Program. As such, all of the Russians traded and brought to the UK and US should be removed. Only a sentence or two should be left.
Their information can be placed in a swap article or an article about Russians swapped for the (known) Illegals Program agents. If there is a swap article, then more stuff can be added. The details of the swap, the 12th Microsoft man (who wasn't charged with being part of that program), and other stuff could be added. There are many details of the swap not in this article. The swap was done differently than past swaps.
The other problem is that the public doesn't know about the Illegals Program. It could be a vast network of 200 Russian agents. If so, WP only knows about the 11 agents. To make an original research statement and assume that the entire Illegals Program was only 11 agents is crazy. Yet to say that they were part of the Illegals Program is also original research. I'll try to fix that one. The other issue about re-vamping, I'll leave to others to discuss.
Suomi Finland 2009 ( talk) 15:14, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
I favor a fact based article. I have a hard time expressing this concept in English so bear with me. One example is the names of the agents. We should not be using names like "John Smith" in the heading. We should present the facts as we can verify. We should use the name like "Vladimir Tereshenko" then say in the article that he used the name of the late John Smith. Suomi Finland 2009 ( talk) 15:37, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
More on what the agents did needs to be put in the article. The court documents give some information.
Suomi Finland 2009 (
talk)
17:01, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
If I were Superman's newspaper boss, I'd be swearing @!%&%$#
We must get this right. Almost a month of this high profile article and Wikipedia doesn't have it (pardon my French) shit together.
For example, under the list of agents exchanged by the USA, Christopher Metsos is listed! He escaped from Cyprus and was never under American control.
There are many other things that need to be fixed. Just concentrating on the name change is much, much lower down the priority.
One order of business is to decide on how to structure the article. What will be the name of the subarticle? The Swap? Suomi Finland 2009 ( talk) 15:26, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
This supposed quote at the beginning of the "Background" section (Using forged documents, some of the spies had assumed the identities of "citizens or legal residents of the countries to which they are deployed" and had enrolled...) -- Where is it from? If this is merely from a mass media report, perhaps it should paraphrased and unquoted; if it cites an official document, methinks, there ought to be a clear reference to that effect. Axxxion ( talk) 11:15, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
To my good friend (unless you are a spy, then I don't know you!) Axxxion, this quote seems to be legal plagiarism (hence the quotes) from http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/29/world/europe/29spy.html?pagewanted=all . I put the reference then paraphrased it better. Oh, Ax., does the 3 x's have anything to do with porn? ;p Just kidding. Suomi Finland 2009 ( talk) 17:30, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
I notice that the "mug shot" of each of the 10 "original" suspects/convicts/deportees now appears not once, but twice in this article -- once in a montage (or whatever it's called) in the infobox and again in the section on each individual or couple. First we have to consider whether these photos are appropriate at all, in light of WP:MUG (which is part of WP:BLP). The applicable part of that policy states: "Images of living persons should not be used out of context to present a person in a false or disparaging light. This is particularly important for police booking photographs (mugshots), or situations where the subject was not expecting to be photographed." When the use of the mug shot in the Anna Chapman article was discussed on that article's talk page, I supported the inclusion of the photo in the infobox (rather than lower down in the article, as some editors were insisting upon.) Nobody suggested that the photo should appear in both places, as it does in this article (meaning that her mug shot now appears three times in two different articles.) One argument in the Chapman case, which I agreed with, was that the photo did not necessarily look like a mug shot, which is probably also true for about half the other photos in this article. (I guess one lesson here is that if you are going to commit a crime (in the U.S.), you might want to consider violating federal rather than state law -- the penalties may be more severe, but at least the U.S. Marshal's Service won't try to make you look too bad in your mug shot.) But the other half, approximately, do look like the kind of photo one would not take voluntarily. On the other hand, I think all of them are "in context", in that all of these people are known primarily for being arrested, and for what they were arrested, charged, convicted (after pleading guilty) and deported for. (In fact, with the sole exception of Vicky Palaez, they are known solely for that. One might argue that Chapman is also an exception, but she didn't actually do anything else newsworthy -- ironically, the reason she is the best known is that she posed for a lot of photos, none of which Wikipedia can use (apparently) due to copyright.) I guess the only other issue is one that is not specifically mentioned at WP:MUG, though it is related to the question of "Does it look like a mug shot?" and that is whether the "quality" of the photo is relevant -- in other words, if the photo makes a person look "really bad", is that an argument for removal? After considering that question, take a look at the photos. Most of them look like they are tired and have not gotten enough sleep, which was no doubt the case after being arrested, booked etc. Nevertheless, the ever-photogenic Ms. Chapman does not look so bad, and is almost smiling, despite being photographed not wearing the latest fashion. Three of the men (Vasenkov, Bezrukov, Kutzik) don't look so bad, and Bezrukov actually is smiling. The other two men are obviously not having a good day. Mrs. Guryev doesn't look so bad, other than looking very, very tired. The other three women -- well, what can I say. I don't think any of them will be hanging that photo on their wall back in Moscow or Peru or wherever.
So what's the bottom line? My opinion is, keep the photos in the section on each person. They are "in context" and simply show us what the person looked like when arrested, and we already know they were arrested, and that they later pleaded guilty and sent home, because that is what the article is about out. However, take the montage out of the infobox. It is unnecessary repetition of photos that are teetering on the edge of policy anyway. Neutron ( talk) 22:46, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
I removed the "gallery" and left the individual shots per the discussion above. To Petri Krohn, I agree with Kmhkmh, they did all plead guilty to crimes. As stated above, I too am a bit troubled by the appearance of the some of the individuals in these photos, though I don't think the quality of the photos alone violates WP:BLP, and the term "tortured" definitely goes too far. (Although I have not done a complete correlation, it seems like the ones who really look haggard are the couples with children, while carefree Anna looks ready to touch up her makeup, put on that little red number and head out for another night on the town.) However, on balance I think it is better to have all the photos rather than some of them or none of them. Neutron ( talk) 20:24, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
@Petri Krohn : again mugshots per se do not violate WP:BLP. As far as the term "criminal" concerned it is not POV but a legal term, i.e. anybody convicted of crime is criminal in that sense. If you want be more specific call them "criminals under US law" and hence US mugshots might be used. Furthermore the term is used on the discussion page in argument here and not in the article. A POV that I see however, is to reserve the use of mugshots solely to biographies of people that you personally consider as "real criminals", whereas using mugshots of anybody being convicted of a crime in some country (if no other pic is available) is rather less POV. Unless you want to argue mugshots cannot be used at all, however such an approach is currently not backed by any guideline nor common opinion among editors.-- Kmhkmh ( talk) 16:54, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Jezhotwells ( talk) 02:43, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
Almost a month and no review. I am willing to review it. TeacherA ( talk) 23:49, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
I shall be reviewing this article against the Good Article criteria, following its nomination for Good Article status.
Disambiguations: One found and fixed. [10] Jezhotwells ( talk) 02:47, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
Linkrot: Three found and tagged. [11] Jezhotwells ( talk) 02:51, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
It seems rather outdated to use "disappearing ink, ad hoc wireless networks and shortwave radio transmissions", when anyone can just spam. Spam is bulk by nature (making it hard to identify the intended recipient), it is often badly written (making it easy to encode the message) and it offers plausible deniability ("My computer was hacked"). -- 80.114.178.7 ( talk) 20:55, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
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There is a mismatch here in this article and the main topic of its title: The Illegals Program. It is immediately apparent as this article begins "The Illegals Program was..." in PAST TENSE. The Illegals Program itself began in the Soviet Union and is still run by Moscow today. There is no way in hell Russia is not still doing this and there are not still sleeper agents out there under cover. Some have been caught, yes, but this been going on for 60 years. Putin himself has stated this openly! [12]
If this article is purely about the group caught in 2010, then it needs to either be renamed, and have an introduction that clearly explains it is only about the group caught in 2010. The Russian article is more appropriately called "Обмен заключёнными шпионами между Россией и США (2010)" (2010 Russia-US prisoner exchange.") While they don't mention the program itself, it is more accurately about the scandal that led to the prisoner exchange in 2010. The original title was much more accurate. PS I think we need to build a real article about the long-running Illegals Program, which means this article will need to be renamed. I am happy to help. —Мандичка YO 😜 09:50, 2 February 2019 (UTC)