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I definitely agree with you that currently the article is about
Georgian Jews so its current contents should indeed be merged into that article. I think, though, that the topic of the article is notable enough as the history of Jews in Abkhazia is not completely similar with the history of Jews in Georgia. For example in 1926 most of Abkhazia's Jews were Ashkenazim, Georgian Jews were second in number and there was quite large number of Crimean Jews (I don't know why)
[1]. So the article in my opinion has some potential. Then the question is whether it can be realised. Do you know of any sources dealing with Jewish presence in mediaeval Abkhazia? Also, why do you think that articles like
Sukhumi Jews should be created?
Alæxis¿question?06:55, 5 October 2008 (UTC)reply
Well, my Hebrew is much worse than your English but I'll look at that article at he-wiki. Thank you for the link to the book also. I think I'll be able to expand this article with help of them.
Alæxis¿question?06:01, 6 October 2008 (UTC)reply
Requested move 5 June 2020
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
– By
WP:DEFINITE and
WP:CONCISE, the use of "the" should be dropped from these titles because it simply is not necessary to convey the topics of the articles. Additionally, the use of the definite article in these cases is clunky and should not be in use per
WP:NATURALNESS. For now, we can disregard the
"political correctness" argument that using the definite article to refer to ethnic groups in certain cases is "othering" and a social wrong. While I personally think this argument is compelling, the true test of whether referring to "Jews" with "the" is acceptable can simply be conducted by looking at the wider media: In 2019,
news articles mentioning "the Jews" were a very small fraction (13.7%) of
articles mentioning "Jews". By
WP:COMMONNAME, the titles of the articles should be changed to reflect this usage by the media.
Mysterymanblue (
talk)
04:28, 5 June 2020 (UTC)reply
I am not sure if I follow the idea that failing to include "the" necessarily implies that most did not survive. On the contrary, I think that using "the Danish Jews" would imply that all Danish Jews were uniformly rescued. While the number of Danish Jews rescued was incredible, there were many of them, and not all were so lucky. The fact that it was a widespread, coordinated rescue is expressed not by the "the" that precedes "Danish Jews", but by the "the" that would appear before "rescue".
Comment: It would be helpful if users were willing to briefly comment on their attitude toward the "big picture" of the RM (namely, renaming "the Jews" to "Jews" in certain cases). While the more controversial article title changes may garner more interest, it is impossible to gauge consensus on the vast majority of the proposed changes if people focus on these.
Mysterymanblue (
talk)
06:04, 5 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose - History of the Jews in some place = the history of all the Jews at all points in time in a clearly defined place. History of Jews in some place = the history of a certain number of Jews at all points in time in a clearly defined place. I sense a notable difference. --
Edelseider (
talk)
06:43, 5 June 2020 (UTC)reply
In either case, I think the meaning of the article title is totally unambiguous. I certainly don't see why removing the "the" would cause the meaning to somehow be more restrictive to "a certain number of Jews". Both article titles carry essentially the same information: this article will inform you about the history of the Jewish community in some particular location. However, we may posit that a certain article title is more idiomatic and then ask ourselves why. I might argue that, for the same reason you see "the Jews" as "all Jews", using "the Jews" paints a community of individuals as a monolith, whereas simply "Jews" is more neutral to the possible rifts in a community and recognizes the individuality in each person. That is why, though both titles carry the same information, I feel that "History of Jews in X" sounds better than "History of the Jews in X"
Mysterymanblue (
talk)
07:06, 5 June 2020 (UTC)reply
But Jews have long been treated as a monolithic community of strangers who were either just tolerated, or unwelcome, or expulsed, or massacred, or sometimes invited to settle... I have been quite involved with the
History of the Jews in Alsace, and as diverse as the Jewish personalities and local communities have been, the non-Jewish perspective was almost always essentialist. And as the titles say, we are talking about local history here (Jews in XXXYY), not about distinct personalities (Jews in the movie industry, Jewish violinists...)--
Edelseider (
talk)
07:14, 5 June 2020 (UTC)reply
(Understanding this may be deeply semantic,) in many places Jewish communities were established and destroyed multiple times. Would each of these separate instances count as the same "the Jews" monolithic community? To me in this instance "Jews" feels semantically more inclusive. I would also see the value of discussing say Jews in the movie industry or violinists, especially given professions have played such a significant part of many of these histories. The Alsace article specificlly mentions cloth and cattle merchants.
CMD (
talk)
07:41, 5 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Cloth merchant and cattle merchant were some of the professions the Jews (not just "Jews") were allowed to have because from the point of view of the host territory - and no matter which one - and from the dominating religion - in the Alsace case many different shades of Christianism (Catholicism, Lutheranism, Calvinism, etc.) - they were one bloc of Others, no matter if physically present or physically absent. I mean, what we are touching here are the subjects of Christian antijudaism and Islamic antijudaism, do we really want to go there? --
Edelseider (
talk)
08:52, 5 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose. "The Jews" indicates Jews collectively, whereas "Jews" might indicate just two of them. Use of "the Jews" in this fashion is absolutely standard in scholarly writing and not in the least "clunky". This doesn't mean that "the" has to be used throughout the article, but in titles and when it is required to emphasise the collective it is normal and natural. Context matters. This article is a fair example: it is not about some individual persons who just happened to be Jewish, it is about a community of people who distinguished themselves and were distinguished by their neighbors on account of their Jewishness. The "othering" argument is wrong-headed; actually having this article at all is an example of othering but we do it because this collective is a notable entity. Some individual cases in the list may be worthy of individual consideration, but as a package I oppose this proposal.
Zerotalk08:23, 5 June 2020 (UTC)reply
@
Paul 012: Not all Jews are part of Jewish history. For example, there may be individual Jews who do not identify with Jews and Judaism, but they are part of other nations' or groups' history, not so much a part of Jewish history. But as "Jews" they are included in "History of the Jews in ____".
IZAK (
talk)
19:33, 5 June 2020 (UTC)reply
The primary article regarding the history of Jews is
Jewish history, so I see no problems there. I am supportive of "Jewish History in Foo" and "Jews in Foo" as more concise alternatives to "History of (the) Jews". However, I recognize that there may be subtle differences in the meanings of these article titles, which is why I elected to go with the article creators' original intentions in these cases.
Mysterymanblue (
talk)
16:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)reply
@
Mysterymanblue: Not all Jews are part of Jewish history. For example, there may be individual Jews who do not identify with Jews and Judaism, but they are part of other nations' or groups' history, not so much a part of Jewish history. But as "Jews" they are included in "History of the Jews in ____".
IZAK (
talk)
19:33, 5 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose. An editor has made a good-faith suggestion that the titular word “the” is redundant and violative of WP:CONCISE. Valid evidence is presented on this thread that the suggestion is wrong.
Bigturtle (
talk)
14:20, 5 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose all the moves. This proposal seems arbitrary and sweeping and unnecessary to me. Plus, all of the reasons given by the proposer have been shown to be incorrect. This set of requests should be closed. -
Lisa (
talk -
contribs)
17:41, 7 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose all the moves. This doesn't even read correctly. Say we're writing a history of baseball, we don't write "History of Mets." We write "History of the Mets." Further, as per Izak and the rest, it just seems a little too much. The editor seems a little too ambitious and we should not be changing these articles when it makes no sense to do so. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Sir Joseph (
talk •
contribs)
20:06, 5 June 2020 (UTC)reply
I would challenge the idea that "the" must necessarily be used when referring to all groups of people. As a counterexample, you certainly would never write about "the history of the African Americans", but rather "the history of African Americans". Each ethnic group has sublteties as to when "the" is used to refer to its name, and Jews are no exception.
Mysterymanblue (
talk)
21:00, 5 June 2020 (UTC)reply
I was using my example to counter a very specific argument regarding the Mets. I believe that "the history of Jews in Baltimore" sounds much better than "the history of the Jews in Baltimore", even though each may be grammatically correct.
Mysterymanblue (
talk)
21:16, 5 June 2020 (UTC)reply
@
Mysterymanblue: It is NOT "the history of the Jews in Baltimore" it is just plain "History of the Jews in Baltimore" without "the" before "Baltimore", don't add in your own extra "the" to make your case. Thanks,
IZAK (
talk)
04:22, 7 June 2020 (UTC)reply
The definite article appearing before "history" does not (and should not) make an impact on the proposed title changes or any argument relating to them. Its inclusion in my comment is incidental to my argument, and was simply there to add fluency to the phrase used within a sentence. When we're discussing "the" modifying the name of an ethnic group, I fail to see how using "the" to modify "history" really bears any weight to either side.
Mysterymanblue (
talk)
05:29, 7 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Support per Mysterymanblue, aside from exceptions above where the WP:COMMONNAME includes "the Jews". Including 'The' is indeed clunky and doesn't align with how we would refer to other groups like "history of African Americans". -
M.Nelson (
talk) 22:19, 5 June 2020 (UTC) I've also listed support below for an alternative proposal. -
M.Nelson (
talk)
12:19, 7 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose. One linguistic construction tends to be more respectful and the other other linguistic construction tends to be more offensive.
Bus stop (
talk)
18:26, 7 June 2020 (UTC)reply
The proposal itself is too long, and adding the voting on it to the same section is unwieldy. I am starting a new separate and more manageable voting section:
Oppose In general I am accepting the complete argument above put forth by Zero0000. Some specific cases could be considered, but as a wholesale move, as it is being constructed above, this gigantic endeavor would be an unnecessary and indeed disastrous waste of precious resources for WP, in my view.
warshy(¥¥)20:48, 5 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Support I agree that "using 'the Jews' paints a community of individuals as a monolith." "'The' African Americans" sounds blatantly politically incorrect and unnatural. Both are ethnic groups, so why would "'the' Jews" be any less off-putting? Even if you do not subscribe to the political correctness argument, "the" is unnecessary; both titles are precise, but the article does not sound more natural or enhance understanding of the article's contents. It seems logical that we would get rid of "the," then, per WP: CONCISE. Simply, "the" does not add sufficient value to merit the implication of out-group homogeneity.
Nayakm (
talk)
01:45, 6 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose for the reasons I detailed above. I also oppose this new section being added at this point in the discussion, which just complicates the issue since most of the previous section already consists of votes.
Zerotalk04:43, 6 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose. "History of Jews" implies the history of individual Jews, as individuals. History of the Jews implies, correctly, history of the Jewish people as a group. "The Jews" , or "the Jewish people" is of course a multi-meaning term, with disputed and sometimes contradictory significance, but no more so than "Jews" ; the change adds no clarity. DGG (
talk )
04:46, 6 June 2020 (UTC)reply
I do not think that any reasonable person would read either title and be confused as to the meaning of the name or the content of the article. Certainly, if we were considering an article like “Names of (the) Jews”, the meaning would be more significant, as an individual is as likely to have a name as a group. However, “the history of (the) jews in a particular place“, with or without the definite article, can really only refer to history of the Jewish people in some location (which, yes, consists of individual Jews), because you don’t really see encyclopedic articles written about the history of a few individuals (especially when the noun used to describe them is so broad). I therefore do not believe that this is strictly a matter of clarity. As an example, I would ask if “the history of the Hispanics in El Paso” is better or worse than “the history of Hispanics in El Paso”. In this case, most people would likely say that “the history of Hispanics” sounds more correct. If we accept that “the” is better for the sake of clarifying that we’re not talking about a individual Hispanics, but all Hispanics, would we be required to accept “the history of the Hispanics”? Or is something more nuanced at play?
Mysterymanblue (
talk)
05:58, 6 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose. I think this needs to be left to individual articles. Some titles sound better with, some without. The article I came here from "History of the Jews in Latin America and the Caribbean" sounds absolutely awkward as "History of Jews in Latin America and the Caribbean".
Laella (
talk)
11:32, 6 June 2020 (UTC)reply
OPPOSE because of this bit of good advice:
Wikipedia:If it ain't broke, don't fix it! Furthermore, I do feel strongly about this, mainly because of sensitivity about the topic and how it is phrased. There are times when plain "Jews" is used, but in the case of the long-standing articles about "History of the Jews in ____" that has been standard editorial policy for almost 20 years on WP (I have been an editor in Jewish history articles for over 17 years), almost all editors understood that in the case of these history articles, to have the word "Jews" dangling in mid-air without the "the" sounds almost pejorative and derogatory to the Jews themselves. Thank you,
IZAK (
talk)
04:15, 7 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose “The Jews” indicates Jews collectively whereas "Jews" is more indicative of a specific number. The five Jews in México City and The six Mexicans in Tehran versus the Jews in Mexico City or the Mexicans in Tehran.
nsaum75[[User talk:nsaum75|[undefined] Error: {{Lang}}: no text (
help)]]17:03, 7 June 2020 (UTC)reply
I am not opposed to this idea. In the line of discussion established by Paul_012 above, IZAK mentions that “Jewish history in X” may not be applicable in some cases because “there may be individual Jews who do not identify with Jews and Judaism, but they are part of other nations' or groups' history, not so much a part of Jewish history.“ However, I would say that grouping Jews collectively with “the Jews” effectively does what IZAK claims, putting them into a monolith which individuals may deviate from. Personally, I do not think that “Jewish history” necessarily has any connotation of claiming Jews who are not deeply identified with their ethnic group. I therefore would favor “History of Jews in X” followed closely by “Jewish history in X”. For articles that are not solely about history, I would chiefly favor “Jews in X”.
Mysterymanblue (
talk)
06:18, 6 June 2020 (UTC)reply
OPPOSE because not all Jews are part of
JEWISH history as such. For example,
Karl Marx,
Sigmund Freud,
Leon Trotsky are all Jews BY BIRTH but they have nothing to do with JEWISH history per se! Marx was an atheist hater of Jews. Freud pioneered psychoanalysis, Trotsky was a Russian revolutionary, that has nothing to do with
Jews,
Judaism, and
Jewish history. BUT, when you talk of "History of the Jews in ____" then you can include even the remotest Jew/s in the "History of the JEWS in ____" since that is ALL INCLUSIVE of everyone connected with the Jews. I hope this is clear. Feel free to ask for clarification. Thank you,
IZAK (
talk)
04:08, 7 June 2020 (UTC)reply
@
Monopoly31121993(2): You are wrong and off base! No one is deciding "who is a Jew", all I am saying is that
Jewish history is too specific because it is Jewish after all. While those Jews who are not connected to anything Jewish ARE included in articles that are titled 'History of the Jews in ___" (which includes all types and varieties of Jews). Note what I am saying is a MORE inclusive (of ALL Jews) naming system, while the title "Jewish history" is more exclusive and excluding and hence unsuitable.
IZAK (
talk)
13:13, 7 June 2020 (UTC)reply
@
IZAK:You write that you don't think
Karl Marx,
Sigmund Freud,
Leon Trotsky, etc. should be included to the History of the JEWS in country X page because "Marx was an atheist hater of Jews. Freud pioneered psychoanalysis, Trotsky was a Russian revolutionary, that has nothing to do with
Jews,
Judaism, and
Jewish history." THESE ARE YOUR WORDS NOT MINE. And that's FINE. It's an interesting opinion. But that conversation belongs on the Talk page of those articles. The conversation here about the title of articles related to the Jewish history of different countries.
Monopoly31121993(2) (
talk)
13:50, 7 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Monopoly, you make me laugh. You are clearly not understanding me! I am citing examples of how this system works. According to me, Marx, Freud, Trotsky would be included in "History of the Jews in Germany" for Marx, and in "History of the Jews in Austria" for Freud and in "History of the Jews in Russia" for Trotsky BECAUSE Marx, Freud, Trotsky are Jews by birth but IT IS POSSIBLE TO EXCLUDE THEM from an article that is just about the Jewish history of those countries because Jewish history is mainly about the history of
Judaism and those who adhere to it, and it is not about renegades who negate not just their Judaism. and their Jewish identity, but also the very essence and notion of
JEWISH History. For this same reason
Jesus is not really part of normative
Jewish history but yet he could be included in an article about the "History of the Jews in Judea". I hope I am making myself clear.
IZAK (
talk)
18:27, 7 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Support "Jewish history in" for the "History of" articles, aside from possible exceptions where "History of" is the
WP:COMMONNAME. It's an improvement to clunky wording and there isn't any loss of meaning or ambiguity, the semantic differences are IMO insignificant. Note that I also support proposal 1 above. -
M.Nelson (
talk)
12:17, 7 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Changing vote to oppose per IZAK and Edelseider. 'Jewish history in' is not a synonym of 'History of [the] Jews in'. A more reasonable synonym might be 'History of Jewish people in'. Still support removing "the" in the initial proposal. -
M.Nelson (
talk)
11:39, 12 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose: "Jewish history" is the history of the Jewish religion (Judaism), while "History of the Jews" is the history of the people of Jewish ethnicity (converts to Judaism included). For instance, Paul the Apostle is not part of the Jewish history, but he is part of the history of the Jews. --
Edelseider (
talk)
12:33, 7 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Are you sure that "Jewish" necessarily refers to the religion only and not the broader group composed of various people based on ethnicity/ancestry/history/culture/religion/conversion? I would note that
Merriam Webster and
the OED define the word "Jewish" as not being solely about Judaism. The Wikipedia article for
Jewish history also defines its scope as "the history of the Jews, and their nation, religion and culture, as it developed and interacted with other peoples, religions and cultures". Certainly, these are not the be-all end-all of the matter (who can fit the meaning of an identity into a sentence or two?), but they indicate something that I see in the broader media: "Jewish" is used in a variety of ways, and not always to refer to religion.
Mysterymanblue (
talk)
19:17, 7 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Mysterymanblue—you say "Jewish" is used in a variety of ways, and not always to refer to religion. There are only 2 ways by which one is a Jew—either by conversion or by birth.
Bus stop (
talk)
19:31, 7 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I believe that Edelseider was arguing that, because there are many Jews who do not believe in Judaism, it is inappropriate to use the chiefly religious phrase "Jewish history" because it would exclude many non practicing Jews or, indeed, Jews who have renounced their faith. I was arguing that the phrase "Jewish" is less about Judaism and more about Jews, which would include those who do not practice Judaism.
Mysterymanblue (
talk)
19:47, 7 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Mysterymanblue—"non practicing Jew" is essentially a meaningless phrase. We know what someone means when they say "non practicing Jew" so it has some utility. But ultimately a person isn't a Jew as a consequence of "practicing" or "not practicing". They are a Jew, ultimately, because they either converted to Judaism or they were born Jewish.
Bus stop (
talk)
20:09, 7 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Really, now. The alternative proposal is every bit as unnecessary as the original one. Perhaps if the proposers were to tell us their real reasons for wanting to change the titles of all these articles. Because the ones given make no sense. -
Lisa (
talk -
contribs)
17:45, 7 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose All these arbitrary, sweeping, wholesale proposals of moving large numbers of articles in a certain field in an indiscriminate manner. No indiscriminate, wholesale measures like this proposed one, which is already turning into a big waste of encyclopedic productive time, is bound to improve WP. Any particular, specific change can be always discussed. But each proposed change will have to be specifically discussed, and then accepted or rejected on the merits. We've had enough of this indiscriminate wholesale change nonsense now, in my view. Thank you,
warshy(¥¥)19:16, 7 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Here's what happens if you propose this on a one-by-one basis for each article:
Oppose per
WP:Consistent. There are two hundred other articles called "History of the Jews in X" and this should be exactly the same.
Consistency could be always one criterion in discussing the merits of an individual proposal. But no serious proposal of any name change will be determined/decided on the basis of just one single criterion. If there are other criteria that may warrant a specific proposal, they can always override the consistency one.
warshy(¥¥)19:39, 7 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Certainly. But there is a long history of unilateral name changes away from "History of Jews in X" for the sake of consistency. This RM is necessary to challenge that idea as a whole.
Mysterymanblue (
talk)
20:58, 7 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose Especially for countries with small populations of Jews, where they haven't been well integrated, or haven't lived for long (mostly post WW2 communities), "Jewish history in Xxxxx" sounds awkward.
Laella (
talk)
07:32, 8 June 2020 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hello
I have just added some information on the
History of the Jews in Peru article. I chose to edit this article for a class I am doing at university, and I added information on the page about the Peruvian Inquisition, along with the Amazonian Jews in Iquitos. Along with this, I added some information in the HIstory section of the article, and would muchly appreciate it for some of you to rip this article apart and give me some pointers. I am still very new to the idea of writing on Wikipedia so I would like as much help as I can get.
Thank you very much.
User:NapJack (
User talk:Napjack)
19:16, 24 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Hello
NapJack, did you mean to post this on
Talk:History of the Jews in Peru? At first glance your edit there seems good. There's a lot of nuance to Wikipedia, but in general working on article bodies using reliable sources will get you much of the way. Best,
CMD (
talk)
09:24, 24 May 2022 (UTC)reply
"immigrated to Israel"
I believe that if you are talking about what people in Abkhazia did, you would say they emigrated to Israel. From Israel's perspective, you would say that their Abkhazia popoluation immigrated from Abkhazia --
142.163.195.114 (
talk)
00:29, 29 November 2021 (UTC)reply