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Should he really be listed as a Tsar? He never reigned, and he never accepted the throne, and he is better known as Grand Duke Michael. john 08:47, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
AFAIK he did accept the throne initially then declined and abdicated without naming an heir. It happened within a couple of hours but it did make him, even though only theoretically, the Tsar, in which case wikipedia's 'highest title' rule comes into place. FearÉIREANN 20:07, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I'm not sure whether he can be considered to have accepted. My understanding is that he expressed willingness to accept, then chatted it out with Rodzianko, et al, and decided not to. [1] and [2], which are generally my go-to sources as far as listing world leaders go, do not list him as having reigned. He is far better known as Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich...I dunno. Perhaps some Russian contributors would like to express their thoughts...
Just to note, most of the google results for "Michael II of Russia" are wikipedia and mirror sites. john 09:36, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Again again again. He never reigned. He never even accepted the throne, officially (he may have privately expressed his acceptance to the Duma commissioners, very briefly, but he never publicly accepted). Michael was never Emperor of Russia. This article should be at Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich of Russia. john k 18:12, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
It is a perfectly logical viewpoint but Wikipedia policy is to use the highest title associated with a personage. He was the person who theoretically inherited the throne when Tsar Nicholas II in his own and his son's name abdicated. AFAIK he indicated an acceptance, then indicated a withdrawal of acceptance. In the area of monarchy, technically an acceptance means automatic status; you can't actually say 'well, no. I don't think I will after all.' It is too late. Saying Nicholas II was the last tsar suggests in effect that he abdicated and ended the crown. In fact he understood he was abdicating the throne to another Romanov. He might not have done so if he thought there was not going to be another tsar. So historically, it is important to point out three facts -
The constitutional vacancy caused by Michael's decision not to stay as tsar is when one can say, in a strict sense, that the monarchy ended. You are right that most sources do not see him as a tsar, but wikipedia really should aim for factual accuracy, not "common knowledge". The last effective Egyptian monarch was King Farouk but the last theoretical king was Faud II. Most people when asked who the last Egyptian king was would say Farouk, but to say that doesn't capture the subtle nuances of what happened and the fact that the monarchy was not actually abolished when Farouk abdicated. Michael II was only a footnote in history, but understanding his albeit miniscule role in the succession and his facilitation of Tsar Nicholas II's abdication by being the man to whom Nicholas theoretically passed the throne is crucial. In that situation he wasn't just another grand duke or the Tsar's controversial brother, he was Nicholas II's last role of the family dice, the man who was supposed to step into Nicholas's shoes and did, then didn't and so ended the dynasty in a whimper. Referring to him by the theoretical title he nominally held for an instant contextualises his role, or non-role and sets Nicholas II's abdication in the relevant context. Nicholas II was the last real tsar, but he didn't expect to be, any more that Farouk expected to be the last Egyptian monarch, etc. FearÉIREANN 19:09, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Hi, nice to get into a good argument/discussion. Some of your points are correct, I think. Certainly, Nicholas's abdication did not end the monarchy, per se. But neither, exactly, did Michael's refusal to accept the throne. To take the easiest point first, I don't think the Fuad II/Michael comparison works. Fuad II reigned but did not rule. But he did reign, and for several months. Michael never reigned. A better analogy would be to 1830 in France. Charles X abdicated in favor of his son the Dauphin on 2 August 1830. A few minutes later the dauphin, now theoretically Louis XIX, abdicated in favor of his nephew, the Duc de Bordeaux, who thus became, again in theory, Henri V. It wasn't until several days later that the Duc d'Orleans, who had been appointed by the revolutionaries Lieutenant General of the Kingdom, declared himself King of the French. As such, by the standards applied to this article, Louis XIX of France and Henry V of France ought to be the locations of their articles, and they ought to be listed on the monarchs of France page. But I don't think this is right. People who reigned but did not effectively rule, like Fuad, should clearly be recognized as Kings. But those who didn't even really reign, except in some very theoretical sense, should not be. Michael is, I think, in the latter category. Yes his brother abdicated in his favor. But, among other things, many legal authorities considered this to be illegal - Nicholas had no right to renounce the rights of his son. Michael may have privately then expressed a willingness to take on the responsibilities. But he immediately changed his mind, and then publicly stated as his response to his brother's abdication that he would not accept the throne, and would wait to see what the Constituent Assembly said. So, under the old rules, it is unclear if Michael did legally become Emperor upon his brother's abdication (even more unclear than the issue of Charles X's abdication - in that case, it was clear, at least, that the Dauphin should succeed him, and the Duc de Bordeaux should succeed the Dauphin, even if abdication itself might not be valid (that is to say, the heir-male of Hugh Capet is King of France until he dies - this was certainly a widely held opinion among hard core monarchists, including the Comte de Chambord himself, who did not proclaim himself king until his uncle died in 1844). In Nicholas's case, not only might abdication as such be invalid, but even if it is valid, there remains the question of his right to abdicate on behalf of his son. And under the "rules on the ground" it's clear that Michael was never actually head of state. Obviously, the exact details of all this should be discussed on the page. But to actually call him "Michael II of Russia" is to endorse a quite dubious constitutional theory, I think, and is POV unless this is what he is commonly called, which it is not (certainly the comte de Chambord is more commonly called "Henri V"). john k 20:09, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
THE QUESTION of Michael as Tsar is fully explained and sourced in Chapters 24/25 of Michael & Natasha and has to be understood in the critical circumstances then obtaining. Briefly, Michael was proclaimed Tsar to the Army on the morning of Friday March 3 (OS) (Melgunov S P Martovskie dni 1917 goda, Paris 1961); at a Te Deum in Pskov Cathedral where the congregation, after the reading of Nicholas’s manifesto, prayed ‘for the prolongation of the days of the New Tsar” (Marie Pavlovna Education of a Princess, Viking NY 1931); in the Crimea where by the afternoon portraits of Nicholas had been replaced by those of Michael after the reading out of the abdication manifesto (Princess Cantacuzene, Revolutionary Days, Chapman & Hall, London 1920); in Moscow where those sympathetic to the revolution greeted the manifesto with ‘wooden indifference’ and where in the Chudov Abbey the liturgy was changed to ‘Our Right Orthodox and Sovereign Lord and Emperor Michael Aleksandrovich’ (E M Almedingen, An Unbroken Unity: A Memoir of Grand Duchess Serge, Bodley Head, London 1964); and at the Warsaw Station, Petrograd, by the two Duma deputies — Guchkov and Shulgin — on their return from Pskov — ‘Long Live Emperor Michael” they cried, with the crowds cheering the news (V. V. Shulgin,Dni, Sovremennik, Moscow 1989).
When the Provisional Government arrived at 12 Millionnaya Street that morning to meet Michael — hoping that he had not yet heard the news, though he had — they brought with them ‘an abdication manifesto’ which the majority were determined to persuade him to sign and which began: We by God’s Mercy, Michael II. Emperor and Autocrat of All the Russias...(Baron Nolde, who helped draft the final manifesto, in V. D. Nabakov and the Russian Provisional Government 1917. Yale university Press 1076).
In short, Michael was already recognised as Tsar by the Church, the Army, and the Provisional Government as well as by the public at large, when he met the government in Millionnaya Street. He had not sought the crown, and had expected instead that was he was to be Regent for his nephew Alexis; however, he had a choice and that was to refuse the crown ‘thrust upon me by the will of my brother’. He did not do that, and therefore his acceptance becomes a fact; in any event, the meeting was firstly about persuading him to abdicate, which would have been a pointless morning if he had told them he was refusing — in which case someone else would have had to become Tsar — and secondly to obtain his authority to have their self-elected government made lawful, before he abdicated.
In the event, his manifesto denied his abdication, while seeming to make his position as Tsar conditional upon the democratic vote of an elected Constituent Assembly which by his manifesto he called into being. He therefore suspended his assumption ‘of the Supreme Power’ without that having been confirmed by popular mandate. However, that was after his acceptance of the crown and making Provisional Government the lawful government of the land. Baron Nolde said later that Michael’s manifesto was ‘in essence the only constitution during the period of existence of the Provisional Government’;' Nabakov who was also brought in to help draft the manifesto, recognised it ‘as the only Act which defined the limits of the Provisional Government’s authority’. Only a Tsar can introduce an Act. After the Provisional Government printed Michael’s manifesto, but claimed it to be his abdication — only Sovereigns can abdicate, not Grand Dukes — the new foreign minister Paul Milykov, when asked by the British ambassador where the new government derived its authority, he answered ‘We have received it, by inheritance, from Grand Duke Michael Aleksandrovich’ (Grand Duke then because he was said to have abdicated). Donald Crawford, co-author Michael & Natasha, August 2 2010.
This article is clearly not neutral. It assurts all kinds of things without a single source. The Grand Duke death clearly concided with the start of the Russian civil war and the efforts of generals and admirals to restor the tsars to power! As to the reaction of the British government, the British were helping the Whites in their fight against the soviets. -- 130.161.31.26 20:41, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I agree that some sources would be nice. In 1918, the British were hardly helping the Whites, though, and there was hardly any organized monarchist white movement in 1918 either - the Siberian resistance to the Bolsheviks consisted of the Czech Legion and a bunch of SRs, and the Volunteer Army was at this point tiny and restricted to the lower Don area. john k 23:17, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I (130.161.31.26) have decided to be bold in editing and change the article myself. I have also added some more information, replaced the table with a succesion box. We only need a picture now, thers is one [3] that is perfect for the article, but I can't upload it because I don't have an account! -- 145.94.41.95 21:31, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
He was NEVER known as Michael II, nor was he emperor. I got rid of the reference at the top of the article that he is "often reffered to as Michael II". I never heard of it anywhere but here. He never took up the throne, meaning there can have been no abdication or even being titled as tsar/emperor.
In any case, if he had a royal title, he would better be known as Michael IV, not Michael II. Read N. Riasanovsky, A History of Russia.
-James
-G
Nicholas abdicated in his favour. He agreed to take it, then change his mind. It is in plenty of history books. Legally in Russian law having accepted the throne he was from that moment Tsar, even if a couple of minutes later he turned around and said "actually I won't, if you don't mind." It doesn't matter whether one is a pope, a tsar or any other sort of monarch. If one is the heir, or person to whom the throne is abdicated, and you say you accept, you are from that moment the monarch. I've reinserting the edit, which is factually correct. He was officially designated BTW as Michael II.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
00:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
My understanding of Russian law is that legally Nicholas had absolutely no right to abdicate on behalf of his son. Can you provide sources for the assertion the he was ever "officially designated" Michael II? He never acted as Tsar, and never formally accepted the throne, only informally. john k 02:19, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Nicholas's behaviour in abdicating directly in favour of his son was questionable. My understanding is that the second abdication was not being done by him as Tsar but effectively as guardian and regent for his son. But it is a legal mess and happening so fast that, as sometimes does happen, people play hard and loose with the law. As to the designation with an ordinal, that never happens immediately. It usually requires some form of constitutional process (in the UK an Accession Council). But in its absence one still is monarch. All documents I have ever seen say that his regnal name was Michael II. And yes he did act as Tsar. He issued a conditional renounciation on the advice of the Government. He signed that by his regnal name, Michael, minus an ordinal.
The key facts that indicate his status were
It is all a minor point given that whatever about reigning he never ruled. But looking at documents I have no doubt but that legally he believed he was a monarch, the Prime Minister believed he was a monarch, the Attorney-General believed he was a monarch, and the ex-Tsar believed Michael was a monarch. Even if it was for only about 14 hours Michael technically on the basis of the evidence was a monarch.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
02:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
The Duke of Orleans did not become "King of France and Navarre" - that title, and the old French monarchy, were swept away. The Duke of Orleans got a new title, "King of the French" and ruled over a monarchy based on entirely different principles. There was a new flag, and so forth. The old monarchy was swept away, and permanently. At any rate, the description of Michael's role that you provide in this post seems perfectly fine. But the position that he actually was Emperor seems questionable. And the idea that because he took "government advice" (which was, as I understand it, mostly actually the advice of various Duma members, particularly Rodzianko, and not advice of the previously existing government) does not necessarily imply anything, especially given the unclear situation. Michael talked to a bunch of Duma members and decided to conditionally renounce the throne. Whether the advice they gave him was formal advice, in the way that Mr. Blair provides advice for Her Majesty today, seems open to question, especially since, well, they weren't formally the government at all, just a bunch of Duma members. Anyway, as I said, the article itself is mostly okay. john k 11:47, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
The abdication was countersigned by the Minister for the Imperial Court, Count Freedericksz. Typically, Nicholas did not send any message to his brother who slept through that night not knowing he was now His Imperial Majesty, Michael II, Emperor and Autocrat of all the Russias. He did not find out until mid-morning 16 March while sheltering in an apartment near the Winter Palace.
Someone entered this, it's clearly not very encyclopedic. It looks frankly stupid, so I removed it. James5555 08:13, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Why is this page under the name Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich of Russia?
His name was Mikhail, NOT Michael.....this page should be moved to the correct name. His parents did not name him Michael.
For example, my Grandfather's name was Riccardo....not Richard. Even though they are different language derivations of a name, they are still different names nonetheless.
-- Mrlopez2681 08:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
For the unregistered user who keeps dropping references to that book Michael and Natasha as he/she did here: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Grand_Duke_Michael_Alexandrovich_of_Russia&oldid=120790662, I wouldn't recommend it. It's not really of a historical standard, more coffee table reading. A book which states that Grand Duke Michael was Michael II, last tsar of Russia, is not really to be taken seriously in any case. James5555 05:32, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I thought we had decided some time ago NOT to put a succession box on the page stating that he was the last tsar of Russia. As this is in flagrant abuse of the decision made, I have removed it. James5555 ( talk) 06:29, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Mikhail Alexandrovich's status after issung his ukase was similar to that of Nicholas I after initially refusing the throne. No one claims Nicholas had abdicated, and there was no question of his right to assume the throne after Grand Duke Constantine made clear he would not do so. Wikipedia dates the reign of Nicholas I from the date of Alexander I's death, not the date he agreed to rule. If the legal status of Nicholas I did not change by his firm renunciation in December 1825, why would Mikhail Alexandrovich's by his conditional one in March 1917? Soshea50 ( talk) 15:38, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
A flaw in this entry is the impression it creates that in March 1917 the Emperor's brother was a non-entity who came out of nowhere, sat at a meeting, signed a document put in front of him, and returned to oblivion. The commission appointed by the Provisional Government to document the circumstances of the February Revolution devoted a surprising amount of attention to the Grand Duke's activities in Petrograd in the days preceding the abdication of Nicholas II. The Grand Duke first persuaded General Alexeyev to ask the Emperor to appont Michael as Military Governor of Petrograd, in an effort to bring some order to what the Grand Duke recognized as the deepening chaos in the capital (which Nicholas refused to do). Then, when it became clear to him that Nicholas would fall, Michael opened a line of communication with Rodzianko, President of the Duma, to assure his support for the Succession of Alexei Nicolaevich, with Michael as Regent (which Rodzianko agreed to do). Although fruitless these initiatives show that the Grand Duke Michael possessed (and displayed) a degree of political judgement, skill and energy of the type otherwise lacking in Petrograd. In this light one may give recognition to the good judgement the Grand Duke showed in refusing to rule (can we imagine any other of the Grand Dukes making a similar refusal) and the admirably crafted ukase he issued as 'Mikhail' anointing the Provisional Government without ending the monarchy. Soshea50 ( talk) 16:15, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
It is of interest that the report of the Provisional Government's Commission always refers to the Emperor's brother as the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich. Those of us who believe he is entitled to the dignity of Michael II based on his de jure status must accept that he is not remembered that way in history, just as Jane Grey is remembered as Lady Jane, not as Queen Jane. Therefore, the article is properly is titled. 72.146.26.203 ( talk) 13:27, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Who was this man, and why was someone with an apparently English-sounding name working as a secretary for the brother of the Russian Emperor? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 10:07, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
Nicholas Johnson was a Russian but his grandfather was British, having moved to Russia as many did to work, and settled there. His mother was a court musician, and Johnson also played the piano well. He spoke English badly ----
OK, let's see. The sequence of events starts at 11:45 pm on 12 June, when the four men gained entry to Michael's hotel. They had some discussions, then he got dressed, then they left the hotel, climbed into two carriages, and drove out of the town into the forest. They all alighted from the carriages and Mikhail and Johnson were shot.
Surely, surely, by this time it was past midnight, and into the 13th of June. No? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 13:41, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Absolutely. As we say in our book (p360 UK) Tbe time was approximately 2 a.m. on Thursday June 13.
Donald Crawford —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.174.121.104 ( talk) 14:19, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
I should have added that this was LOCAL time. At the beginning of June on orders from Moscow the clocks in Bolshevik Russia had been advanced by two hours, effective in Perm from June 2. However, as with Michael, so with Nicholas, who was also murdered after midnight in Ekaterinburg (the same time clock as Perm) though almost every source gives his date of death as July 16, not correctly July 17. That said, in cultural terms, the Russians treat ‘next morning’ as the day you get up so they would think June 12 as being the same day for an event which goes beyond midnight but is still part of the day before. Curiously, since Nicholas and his family had gone to bed at 10.30 pm, and were woken at midnight, by that test it was July 17 for them. So the easier get-out is ‘on the night of June 12/13’ and ‘on the night of July 16/17’. The thousands of people in Perm who now commemorate the death of Michael each year take June 12 as the date — so for our part we take June 12 as ‘the last day of his life’, which seems to cover the point to the satisfaction of all. However, when — as we do — we give the precise time and date of his death, then it cannot come out other than as 2 a.m. Thursday June 13. Apply that same test to Nicholas, and — oh dear — the history books have the wrong date. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.174.121.104 ( talk) 15:28, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
It says he was born december 4. That is the Julian calendar. To convert Julian to Gregorian you need to add 12 days. That makes it december 16! 07:36, 10 March 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by FabianWahlSandvold ( talk • contribs)
Someone changed his Gregorian calendar date of birth to November 22. You are going the wrong way! Since he was born between 1800 and 1900, you need to add 12 days to the julian day to get the gregorian date! 23:56 10 March 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by FabianWahlSandvold ( talk • contribs)
This is a well-written and well-sourced article! It should be submitted by one of its devoted editors for Good article status. Ruby2010 ( talk) 22:33, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
It should be pointed out, when Nicholas II abdicated, his son & heir-apparent's right to the throne were simultaneously renounced. Otherwise, the monarchists would've recognized Alexis II not Michael II. GoodDay ( talk) 16:18, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
In November 1898, he attained legal adulthood, and just eight months later became heir presumptive to Nicholas as the middle brother, George, was killed in a motorcycle accident.[16]
where does this come from? grand duke george died of tuberculosis, michael's son, george died in a car crush! ~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fralence ( talk • contribs) 12:43, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Khazar2 ( talk · contribs) 01:02, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi Alex, I enjoyed the last submission of yours I reviewed and will be glad to take this one. Comments to follow in the next 1-5 days; thanks as always for your work, Khazar2 ( talk) 01:02, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
What a well-constructed article this is. It's well sourced, well proofread, and strikes a perfect blend of concise summary with the occasional telling quotation or minor detail. It also helps, of course, that Michael's story is simply fascinating.
I made a few tweaks, nothing serious, as I went. There were also some points I couldn't immediately resolve myself (only the third is important):
- Spotchecks of Crawford and Crawford, the most heavily used source, show no evidence of copyright issues. - Minor lead issue (above); no other MOS issues found that fall under criterion 2b. - Comparison to other online biographies shows no major aspects missing, and the article appears thorough in its research - Sources are reliable. Only one significant unsourced statement (above) - Article is neutral - Article is stable - File:Brasova.jpg needs a tag for its US copyright status; all other images are ok and appropriately captioned.
In short, this is ripe for promotion; I'll put it on hold so those three points can be addressed. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 02:24, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, one more point--looking again at the lead after reading the article, it seems to me that his love affair with and marriage to Natalia and his military service should both be mentioned. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 02:38, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
^ Though this is not yet confirmed, he appears to be wearing the medal to the left (lesser precedence) to the Greek Order of the Redeemer, in several photographs of him in uniforms of both the Chernigov Hussars and the Chevalier Guards, circa 1912-13 ^ Though this is not yet confirmed, he appears to be wearing the medal to the left (lesser precedence) to another medal (presumably the Commemorative Medal for the Centenary of the 1812 War), to the left of the Greek Order of the Redeemer, in a photograph of him in the uniform of the Chernigov Hussars, circa 1913" -- do these have citation? This may be straying into original research, and if sources like Crawford and Crawford don't mention these, they may be extraneous to mention here anyway. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 02:40, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
I'm kinda confused by "Nicholai Johnson". This Daily Mail article talks about Brian Johnson, Michael's personal secretary since 1912, who was murdered along with Michael; Brian Johnson's father was a Nicholas Johnson. I don't have access to the cited source for any of what's in the article to see if I can clarify things, but there's some misinformation somewhere, it appears. --jpgordon ::==( o ) 01:26, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
How can he have been "officially rehabilitated" rehabilitated when he was neither charged nor convicted of any crime? He was actually a murder victim. Royalcourtier ( talk) 09:38, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
Specifically this: "but Alexei inherited the blood-clotting disorder haemophilia and was not expected to live". While Alexei did have hemophilla (there's a whole section about it in Alexei Nikolaevich, Tsarevich of Russia), he was not terminal. He didn't die because of his illness, but because he was executed along with the rest of his family. His health would have needed to be carefully monitored like it had always been, but it wouldn't have been impossible for him to rule. Clovermoss ( talk) 04:33, 23 April 2019 (UTC)