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![]() | A fact from Eastern Bloc economies appeared on Wikipedia's
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Did you know column on 28 March 2009 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
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The map contains several spelling errors and should be replaced.
I think this has been discussed elsewhere: What is the point in giving the impression that the USSR's GDP was more than two times that of the CSSR or Hungary? Yaan ( talk) 17:32, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Whoever wrote this obviously hasn't read Wikipedia:Neutral point of view This reads like a denounciation rather than a neutral encyclopedia article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.143.248 ( talk) 00:54, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
I agree with the others that this article completely lacks neutral view and the GDP section deserves an edit. These figures are maybe true, however it refers only to individual paycheck, in the Eastern block the basic needs were cheap/free. Example:Where I worked we were given 2 free (1 cooked) meals a day-without limit, all you can eat, the healthcare was also free (excluding cosmetics and unnecessary treatments),education including colleges and universities were also state funded and students didn't have to pay. In 1980 on official trips I have visited USSR, France and Italy. The economic difference was very small
The Housing quality in the Eastern Bloc by the 1980s gives quite implausible figures. 60% of dwellings had piped water and 28% had an inside toilet in Bulgaria ? That is completely impossible. Not to mention, that the entire article is something that sounds pretty much like "damn, that really sucked",e.g., totally lacks neutrality. - ☣ Tourbillon A ? 18:48, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
On your user page you have a user box stating that you despise democracy and love authoritarian rule. It's no wonder you don't like the deficiencies of the authoritarian and communist east bloc being elucidated. -- MustaphaMond ( talk) 02:42, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Maybe he just don't like lies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.137.147.142 ( talk) 11:28, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
This article contains one attack after another against the Soviet Union and communism. I'm pretty sure that not everything in the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc was "crap", even if it was that most of the time. -- TIAYN ( talk) 19:33, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
I see where you're coming from, but the article is very well cited from a plethora of sources. The article doesn't state that all manufactured goods made by communist countries were crap. -- MustaphaMond ( talk) 02:38, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
This article should have a section on the role of the private sector. Most of these countries had a certain degree of informal (not necesairly illegal) private enterprise. Some (particularly the GDR) tolerated a certain degree of more formal small business activity as well. While larger business operated both during the initial transition to a planned economy and in the latter days of peristroika. 86.112.90.70 ( talk) 12:48, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
This article is factually incorrect with the GDP (PPP) figures, some claims have nothing to do with hard data (political ones) like claiming there were extreme inequality in USSR (which there was not,, according 2 GINI USSR was a relatively equal society - and this is only taking into account income) and it is in general negative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.91.24.192 ( talk) 20:43, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
I propose to administrators just delete whole article, becouse it's pretty much evident that sources used for this is...how to say ...well..crap. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.137.151.80 ( talk) 21:24, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
This article completely jumps over many important periods of communist economics in the EB. Example, Socialist Bulgaria held a strong economic growth for years because of its low level of development before the communist takeover. Most countries, at first, benefitted from Soviet economics. East Germany, however, stands out since it held a positive growth rate until the end, and there were no signs of it ever declining. The Soviet economy held a positive growth rate in the 1960s and 1970s, and the Soviet living standard has never increased as fast as it did in that period. But no, is any of this mentioned? No! I can go on giving you more and more examples, but for some weird reason a user is removing my TAGS! -- TIAYN ( talk) 06:19, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
I disagree that the article is an overview of the general economic policies of the bloc. It isn't even that. Much of it is full of random facts that seem carefully selected to paint the most negative possible picture of Eastern Bloc economies. For example, the section titled "Five Year Plans" does not actually describe what the Five Year Plans were or how they operated. Instead, it talks about a hospital in Warsaw in the 1980s, the plan targets of Bulgarian farms, broken light bulbs, "Lenin Saturdays", and stakhanovism (without explaining what it means). A lot of the article is like this - just random facts from various Eastern Bloc countries at random times. This is all very well sourced, but it misses the point. What the article needs to contain is information about (1) how the system worked, and (2) common economic policies - not random facts.
When broad trends are described, such as in the section on "lagging growth", they are very strongly biased. It is true that some Western sources (cited in this article) claim that economic growth in the Eastern Bloc lagged behind growth in the West. However, many others claim the exact opposite. All of them should be mentioned.
Oh, and it would also be nice to use some actual Soviet or Eastern Bloc sources in the article, too.
Basically, this article needs to be completely rewritten. But doing so would require extensive research. If no one else is able to take up the task, I think I'll have the time for it a couple of months from now. But I would really prefer not to be alone in this. -- Amerul ( talk) 07:02, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
I wish you luck with that. It will be pretty big job becouse basicly everything here is written from few mostly western sources which don't realy don't know what they talking about. Personaly i doubt that without using eastern block sources there will be posible to write neutraly about eastern block economies...especialy critical part..becouse from what i see no westerner have any clue "what's wrong with communism" and they constantly point to wrong places. Regerding good thing about communism...that's even harder.Personaly i think good start for fixing this article will be....delete all except some raw data.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.137.151.80 ( talk) 21:43, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
In this article it can be read that for instance in Yugoslavia 1981...only 33% of houses had piped water. Well, i lived at that time in Yugoslavia and number is more like 95%. Or this qoute
Poor housing was one of four factors leading to severely declining birth rates throughout the Eastern Bloc.[103] Homelessness was the most obvious effect of the housing shortage, though it was hard to define and measure in the Eastern Bloc ' What a crap is this?
Aniway...this whole article is totaly wrong and misleading. And probobly need to be rewritten by someone who know what it's talking about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.137.146.89 ( talk) 17:44, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
All in all rather than showing a neutral view the article I think "tries" very hard to blame all deficiencies in these countries on their particular economic model. This isn't so black and white. Not only were they faced with circumstances earlier that were beyond their control, but in certain aspects it was better than today(housing, low unemployment and so on). -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 17:12, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
the supply of housing of spaces has probably gone up with new construction etc. Actually, the number of housing has not gone up, but lower. Figures can be provided. Remember that Poland is not a utopian "free market" after 89, it has a lot of permits and regulations. And the lower availability of housing makes higher prices and income for select few developers possible(remember that housing in Poland is more expensive than in Germany for example)...So it is not really that black and white...-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 17:31, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
Around 250.000 yearly under PRL [3], today 100.000 yearly [4]-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 19:47, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
See also page 13-14 in this presention [5]-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 19:57, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
It is striking that this entry doesn't mention the post-war conditions of places like Poland or SU and enormous loss of population-including highly skilled workers, engineers, scientists-all of which influenced economy. I suggest that population losses should be added to this entry, along with destruction of infrastructure inflicted by Nazi Germany during the war. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 17:15, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
In Poland, housing problems were caused by slow rates of construction, poor home quality (which was even more pronounced in villages), and a large black market And almost complete destruction of Poland's capital by Nazi Germany was not in any way a factor influencing the housing situation? -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 17:20, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
In general this is definitely something that should be included. I'm pretty sure there are pretty good sources for the Soviet Union in this regard, maybe East Germany. For other Eastern Bloc countries, well, there isn't much economic history done there (and that's what it is). Even raw data is hard to come by (unsurprisingly, right after the war, collecting accurate statistics wasn't a top priority). From off the top of my head, based on what I read once long time ago here and there, and how these things usually worked in other wars, I'm pretty sure that what happened - as I already mentioned - was that the physical capital (buildings, factories, etc) recovered fairly quickly. Command economies in general, and these economies in particular, had pretty high investment rates. Human capital on the other hand is much harder to accumulate and replenish - and the murder by the Nazis of large number of people with any kind of post-primary education means that this was probably the biggest shortcoming (so, as negative as it sounds, the Nazis were somewhat successful in their stated goal of impoverishing these places through the extermination of the "elites"). Add on top of that slow technological growth under communism and that's pretty much the income gap we observe today. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 18:41, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
So Poland had 2,574,800 shortage of housing in 1986? How nice that thanks to reforms after 89 it now has 2-3 mln shortage of housing [6]. Oh wait... At least regarding the number of people per room we reached almost the level of East Germany from 1961, of course in 2011... By the late 1980s, Poland had an average 20 year wait time for housing, while Warsaw had between a 26 and 50 year wait time Cool. Should we compare to current data? Average monthly pension allows you to buy 0.3 meters of housing today [7]. That means you could buy a small 50 meter apartment after over 20 years. Of course If you don't buy anything else ;) Or you could take 50 years loan ;)
Poor housing was one of four factors leading to severely declining birth rates throughout the Eastern Bloc Can I be so mean and compare birth rates pre-89 and after 89?-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 19:39, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
There is a sentence: Don't tickle sleeping dragon. Any serious comparation between house construction in let's say period 1969-1989 and 1989 - 2009 will only turn people to say "bring me back communism" :). Communism had it's weakness, but housing was not one of them.
Data for Yugoslav economy are totaly incorrect. In 2003 Croatian GDP was equal to that from 1990 so the growth of 300 % from then to 2010 is not possible which is implied in this article (based on what is written). That would, for instance, imply growth rate of 6.5 % per year which, I think, was achieved only once during 20 years (not to mention two periods with high recession). In order to improve this article and article Economy of Croatia, I urge someone with the good knowledge of Serbocroatian and economy to consult this well-cited sources from Croatian scientists in economy:
193.198.162.13 ( talk) 13:25, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
So is anyone willing to devote some time to improving this article? First hand accounts of life in the Eastern Block would be interesting, I know I've got some. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexkvaskov ( talk • contribs) 20:09, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
I checked the source given in the article, and several of the numbers do not even appear in the book. Others are not from the 80s, as indicated in the title. Not only is it highly questionable to use one single source, which may very well be biased, using that source to make unsourced claims is completely unacceptable. The book used as source, Housing Policies in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union, is freely available on Google Books. I propose the unsourced numbers to be removed immediately, and using other sources to check the numbers that are sourced, in order to make the article less factually inaccurate and biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.194.13.213 ( talk) 23:16, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Homelessness was the most obvious effect of the housing shortage, though it was hard to define and measure in the Eastern Bloc.
Who wrote this shit??????
I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 ( talk) 00:46, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
I reverted today an IP's removal of GDP figures/tables. I think having even doubtable figures (in case sourced) is better than none. As for the comment, I agree that Maddison's figures at times seem eccentric, e.g. 1990 figure for Estonia 10,800$ if compared with 16,800$ he gives for Finland seems an exaggeration. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 18:34, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
The dreary looking image of a cooking oil line in Romania as the first image one sees when reading this page is incredibly propagandistic. One might as well make the first image on the "Economy of the United States" page a homeless person.
24.62.40.155 ( talk) 19:51, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Eastern Bloc economies/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Re B, I started this, so I'm biased, but I think I can safely say that it's pretty easy for this article: 1. It's suitably referenced (almost every line has inline citations to major works) |
Last edited at 12:33, 28 March 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 14:01, 29 April 2016 (UTC)