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slag him off? There's so much I wouldn't know where to start.....Ann Robinson seems to have summed the bloke up well
Harryurz15:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)reply
I keep editing Ben Elton's page as I find it extremely biased. I do not understand why my changes are not let stand. I thought the tenet of this encyclopaedia was a neutral point of view. It seems to be more a forum for opinionated people. My main objection is that his biography finishes with the, once again, opinion of Anne Robinson. Since when did her, or anyone else opinion become fact? Such biased biographies as this seriously damages the credibility of Wikipedia. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Fivepastfive (
talk •
contribs) 15:38, 21 July 2006
Thank you for engaging in dialog. I agree that if the article were to say "Ben Elton is not funny," that would be biased. However, when it says "Anne Robinson mocked him on television for not being funny," that is perfectly reasonable to include. If you want to rephrase it, go ahead, but I think it is appropriate to include the point. I will reinstate it.
Uucp16:06, 21 July 2006 (UTC)reply
I just got back last night from Ben's live show "Get a grip" at QPAC in Brisbane Australia. I think the phrase "Get a grip" is exactly what need's to be said here. I enjoyed the show enormously. He is a great comedian. What someones personal opionion of him at any time in the past of present is not what this wiki if for. He is a comedian, and nor does he appear to be selling himself as anything but. It may be fact what Anne.R said, but what she said has nothing to do with who Ben Elton is. Perhaps post Annes comments in her wiki?
[2]--
Hobie14t03:13, 2 August 2006 (UTC)reply
I am glad you enjoyed the show, and hope Elton brings it to my continent one of these years. However, I diagree with your feelings about "what this wiki is for". The intent is to create an encyclopedia entry about Elton, not a
paean. If a
prominent media figure mocks him on television, this is notable and worth of inclusion on his page, even if we disagree with the mockery.
Uucp23:14, 2 August 2006 (UTC)reply
Can you just let me know why your opinion of what should and should not be included outweighs everyone elses? If we think it inaccurate to have Anne Robinson's opinion as the closing paragraph to Ben Elton's biography, thereby summing him up, then why do you have th eright to deny it being changed?
User:Fivepastfive — Preceding
undated comment added
08:44, 4 August 2006 (UTC)reply
I make no claim to "outweigh" you. However, I have been editing Wikipedia for years and have worked on literally thousands of articles, while you have been editing for about three weeks and only on this article. I regularly read Wikipedia policies on appropriate content, and I am not sure that you have. Please accept the possibility that I am more familiar with appropriate Wikipedia content than you are. It is generally notable when somebody famous says something pointed about you on television. For comparison, consider the entry on
Adam Clymer. He is a notable journalist, and his entry prominently features discussion of George Bush and Dick Cheney insulting him by an open microphone.
If you want, call for moderation of this discussion; I am pretty sure they will agree with me but if they don't, I will abide by the decisions of the moderator.
Uucp11:07, 4 August 2006 (UTC)reply
I think it's worth noting that during the eighties, Anne Robinson worked for the left-leaning Daily Mirror, but recently said that she thought Margaret Thatcher was the second greatest ever Briton. Thus I think she's hardly in a position to lecture anyone on left wing politics, political consistency or indeed principles
bingo9905:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)reply
If Anne Robinson's harsh critique of Elton's supposed hypocrisy are to be quoted, I think it only fair that these political inconsistincies of her own should also be pointed out. It is relevant
bingo9914:50, 14 August 2006 (UTC)reply
Bingo, thanks for the dialog. I don't think it's hypocrisy -- her views have just changed over time. These views, and the reasons they have changed, may be interesting and worth including on her page. However, this is a page about Ben Elton, and I think that a discussion of the temporal evolution of Anne Robinson's political views would be out of place.
Uucp14:15, 14 August 2006 (UTC)reply
Let's see what Anne says:
"Anne argued that Ben should be sent to the room "for being a total and utter hyprocrite and going back on everything he stood for in the 80s and 90s".
By her own standards she's a hypocrite who's gone back on everything she stood for in the eighties and nineties. I think it's unbalanced and unfair to include her attacks on Elton's character, but not any, in these circumstances, reasonable rebuttal for the other side of the argument citing her own political transformations. Why is it okay to say "her views change over time", but let her label Elton a "hypocrite" for the exact same reasons? -
bingo9915:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)reply
Bingo, thank you again for the dialog. I don't think this is the place for arguing about the definition of "hypocrite," whether Anne Robinson is one or not, that should appear on her page, not Ben Elton's. Regardless, this page should not be about advocacy; she passed judgment on him in public, that's noteworthy, this isn't the place to argue that her judgment is right or wrong. (Separately, I think her phrasing is an interesting one; she implicitly grants that his work in the 1980s was interesting and important, and worth defending).
Personally, I think there is too much about Anne Robinson on the page right now. I would cut it down to one line -- say that she called him a hypocrite on her program, period. Readers will discount her views according to their own opinions of her intelligence and honesty. Those who don't know who she is can click through to her own page and learn more there.
Uucp15:27, 14 August 2006 (UTC)reply
If it can't be balanced then I'd remove her presence completely -
bingo99 16:51, 14 August 2006
Uucp, I agree with bingo99 on this, I don't think Robinson's comments are noteworthy, and so they should be deleted (even though I agree with her!) I'd only include public criticism of person X by person Y on person X's page if it causes a media storm (such as
Prince Charles' comments on
Nicholas Witchell; or if person X responds (like
Liam Gallagher and
Robbie Williams did with each other). (
Chorleypie22:41, 12 December 2006 (UTC)}reply
By that standard, nothing Elton has ever done is noteworthy, as he has never created a media storm. Would you therefore like to remove the entire article? Robinson is more famous than Elton, and offered a cogent criticism of him on a widely viewed television program. It deserves to be mentioned.
Uucp23:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)reply
The section has been recently edited to "remove untrue remark - anti-Royalist material was occasionally a feature of the Sat Live era standup." In fact this claim itself is not true. The only material Elton did about The Royals from that period is wondering why the Queen didn't use her Christmas speech to go "up your Spitting Image". Also a routine about how he thought that "Princess Diana should have married Simon Le Bon and Prince Charles should have married the Bishop of Durham". Maybe a slight dig at Prince Charles intellectual obsessions, but in the end, quite sympathetic, and it would be a tad extreme to describe them as "anti-royal". The first joke seems very supportive in fact. Being about the Royals doesn't qualify as being anti them. I have memories myself in the eighties of Ben Elton on Wogan describing Prince Charles affectionately as "a bit of a hippy, but he's alright". -
bingo99 00:00, 18 August 2006
Basically a hippy can be referenced if necessary as it appears on either Motorvation of Motormouth (can't remember which) - the two recordings of Ben's performances in the 1980's.
QuiteUnusual21:44, 1 November 2006 (UTC)reply
Joking about the royal family doesn't mean being anti-royal. Modern "alternative" comedy is basically abusing and ridiculing the subject, and swearing as often as possible. So mentioning the royals at all can be seen as anti-royal, just as the comedian is "anti" everything he "jokes" about. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
124.197.15.138 (
talk)
04:57, 26 June 2011 (UTC)reply
Criticism
This seems very unbalanced at the moment, with uncited criticisms and a biased tone against the subject. Is any defence of these criticisms allowed?
bingo9913:14, 3 December 2006 (UTC)reply
I can't see the problem with bias at all. This is either out of date, or over-sensitivity. The article is very fair to Ben Elton, and only at the end includes well cited and commonly known criticism from other prominent figures. Wikipedia is meant to be NPOV, but that doesn't mean coddling people in cotton wool. I would support removing the tag of bias
Fences and windows04:17, 25 February 2007 (UTC)reply
The only person I can see being coddled in cotton wool in the criticism section is ex-Daily Mirror journalist now Thatcher supporter Anne Robinson condemning people for going back on left wing views they had in the eighties. -
bingo9913:14, 25 February 2007 (UTC)reply
This is a few months down the line from this discussion, granted, but for what it's worth it the criticism section seems quite fair to me; he's a public figure, and it's written in a pretty objective tone.--
Joseph Q Publique13:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)reply
This is not a Wiki entry on Anne Robinson. The inclusion of her quote is valid as it encapsulates the criticisms of Elton that are held by a number of people. 10 April 2007 (AM)
Removed pointless excessive criticisms and left the one in summary which he responded to. Being prominent isn't sufficient reason to include a criticism and readers will get the general idea pretty quick.
RutgerH (
talk)
15:55, 26 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Criticism sections are against wikipedia style. It is better to have a Reception section which includes both positive and negative reviews with due focus.
Ashmoo (
talk)
11:18, 9 February 2018 (UTC)reply
Editor Soji Lujet has repeatedly inserted a claim on the page that somebody named "Chris Thomas" has humor similar to Elton's. The editor always links to Thomas's page and the page of one of Thomas's books. I believe this to be at best irrelevant, and perhaps linkspam. We would not list on Tom Clancy's page, for example, every author whose style resembles Clancy's. To do so gives us no insight on the original author. Besides which, the similarity is nothing but POV. Lujet continually reinserts this without discussion. If s/he wants to do so again, I suggest requesting a moderator to review.
Uucp22:35, 2 June 2007 (UTC)reply
The Chris Thomas article has been deleted and the article for the
book is currently up for deletion. Soji Lujet has also been making similar edits on
Adrian Mole and
Bridget Jones' Diary and keeps re-adding the text when it is removed there too, again without discussing his/her actions. The AfD looks like it will pass at the moment so hopefully the edits will stop then.
212.140.167.9900:34, 26 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Voice
Before anyone starts-does anyone know what his real voice sounds like? His public voice is obviously fake Cockney -essential to show that he is not really clever or middleclass etc-but what does he really sound like ? I suspect probably something like a rather arrogant drawling Old Etonian...
Winston1911 (
talk)
08:41, 13 January 2009 (UTC)reply
I've never heard him talk in any other voice. I have no idea what a drawling Old Etonian sounds like, you obviously have experience of them. His voice sounds to me like what you'd expect from someone fairly educated from S.E.London, and as he was born in Catford that is not surprising. What is your real voice like? Something like a drawn out farting sound due to you talking through your arsehole? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
213.225.149.5 (
talk)
15:54, 22 May 2014 (UTC)reply
Socialist?
Giving large ammounts of money to Tony Blair's New Labour Party does not make you Left Wing or a Socialist. Tony Blair is no more a Socialist than his masturbatory idol Margaret Thatcher. Likewise New Labour is more Right Wing than Ted Heath's 1970s Consevative Party. Therefore Mr Elton cannot be a hypocrite as he's always been "establishment". As for the leather-arsed Anne Robinson's opinion I rather doubt that botoxed-to-buggery geriatric old drunk is in any position to talk about sell-outs, she's obviously brained her damage with too much formaldehyde as no-ones sold out more than her, especially all the way to the bank. AM — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
92.26.96.19 (
talk)
02:07, 27 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Leader
" He was the leader of the British alternative comedy movement of the 1980s " This will come as a bit of a surprise to some of the genuinely funny, genuinely alternative comedians of the time (e.g. Alexei Sayle). — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
78.147.227.194 (
talk)
21:46, 26 May 2013 (UTC)reply
The opening paragraph says that Ben Elton has written fifteen novels, but later in the article we read he has written sixteen novels.
Vorbee (
talk)
17:55, 7 September 2019 (UTC)reply