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I think the topic is worth its own article rather than simply being a redirect to -phobia. A word "Russophobia" exist in modern English and, as defined by the "The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language", a Rus·so·phobe is the "One who fears or dislikes Russia or its people or culture" and an opposite to a Russophile. I will try to come up with a stub one of these days. Irpen 18:22, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
List of phobias has:
Afrophobia Anglophobia Chinophobia Christophobia Dutchphobia Europhobia Francophobia Germanophobia Islamophobia Nipponophobia Judeophobia Mikatikoindicaphobia Papaphobia Polonophobia Russophobia Satanophobia Sinophobia Staurophobia Theophobia Walloonophobia Xenophobia
At least some of these appear to be jokes. Some of the actual articles suffer from ideosyncratic POV, usually without rebuttal. ( Afrophobia, Islamophobia) Some do have rebuttal. ( Polonophobia) Some actually have relatively neutral historical content. ( Anglophobia, Judeophobia, although content pushing a POV is probably attracted to the much longer Anti-semitism instead.) One could also list Anti-Americanism which is another long article.
Overall, I don't think these -phobia pages are a great idea as they are likely to have content with an axe to grind, but it does seem they are established. ---- JWB
In vain, at the vfd for caucasophobia I tried to explain that it is not the goal of wikipedia to do original research. Therefore the question should we have russophobia article or not is trivial. If we have books or research articles to draw information from, then the article is a must (probably not exactly under this title). If one wants just to collect paper clippings from all around the worls, then I say "nay".
So please start from the list of academic references. mikka (t) 03:38, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If we need references first of all, we could start with this:
This is of course not a complete study of the issue. - Irpen 22:00, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
How about this lovely website:
Time to send congrats to Vladimir Putin? mikka (t) 06:09, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
An anon (probably a Russian) made the following comment in his edit summary:
While the Russian version contains a number of interesting and useful facts, I would not vouch for its complete translation. It is a very unbalanced text: it has everyting: unconfirmed facts, large off-topic digression, a whole POV section, and misinterpretation of the results of a Gallup poll (in the part about baltic states: forgetting that these have a huge proportion of Rus/Bel/Ukr population).
So I'd say, a creative borrowing is required, rather than blind translation. Also, Shafarevich's Rusophobia, which is actually considered to be an anti-Semitic work, deserves a separate article. At the same time, I am aware that some Soviet dissidents, glorified in the West, such as Andrei Amalrik, published blatantly rusophobic statements, so Shafarevich did have a motivation for his views.
So the article most certainly has a potential of fleshing out. mikka (t) 22:57, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
First of all stating Eastern Europe was wrong, since Poland is located in Central and Eastern Europe.Secondly the assertion that such countries ware under "influence" of Moscow is a little bit light.They were occupied brutally in XX century.Third not only in XX century but they experienced occupation in past centuries linked with Russification, deportations and mass murder. Fourth, ok can you give specific examples of unjustified fear of Russia ? -- 82.139.13.231 00:12, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
That is I am all for specified examples.However loose "they are russophobic" is not enough.Especially without mentioning history such as invasion and occupation of Baltic States by Soviet Union, Partitons of Poland, deportations to Siberia etc, Praga Massacre in Poland etc. -- 82.139.13.231
The issue of Russophobia is often brought up in connection to the Eastern Europe that was under the influence of Moscow, sometimes heavy-handed, for the most of the 20th century.
Ok.
Give some examples.Without this, these are simple allegations of POV nature.Eastern Europe ? Including Belarus and Serbia ? Be precise. I am waiting for comments.-- Molobo 22:24, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
"Hardly Polsih schlachta of these times hated Russian peasant" So you mean that szlachta liked Russian occupation ? It certainly didn't.Or do you mean Poles of today hate Russians ?-- Molobo 22:09, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Above posters claim Russian versions has examples.Why aren't they posted here ? It would clear things up.-- Molobo 22:17, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't think it's possible to cure the West of russophobia. There are no universal values. Every historical fact can be brought under different sauces. Speaking about Poland: if any of us did open a history textbook they could read that separation of Poland was NOT good for Russian politics. And that Russia rose it's voice AGAINST it. The position of making Russian always wrong and undecent of their territories, their resources, their voice among all other peoples is highly convenient for all western ideologies. Noone will ever remember that Russia saved Western Europe of nomads from steppe, sacrificed millions of its people to freeing from Napoleon and the Nazi. The reason is fundamental differences in culture, which makes the West consider it's values self-suffucient. So-called "universal values" and "human rights" are standards born in the West not so long ago. As you can see in this very talk they don't provide peace, they provide misunderstanding and intrusion. What is the most rediculous is that the "russophobes" are trying to teach Russians that their life is not what they think about it. Well, I don't think there is any point in trying to develop a "neutral" article on this topic. At a Western site I am quite ready to read about "never-to-be-right Russians" and "always-right" Polish, English, Americans and all other nations who have much to quarrel but always become loving friends when it is time to show Russians their place. -- S.
The article is only available by payment.Thus can't vertified. -- 82.139.13.231
Where ? Why link to link that can't be readed.
Is it about irrational Russophobia or worsening of relations due to real facts and events that cane be interpreted as hostile(justifing Yalta, attempts to takeover energy sector etc) ? -- Molobo 22:58, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Please cease to add chaotic remarks on who hated Russians from out of one's head or from newspaper clips. Everyone hated. So what? Everyone knows that. We need an input from solid sources and mention actual facts, to make an encyclopedic article. If you have no time for some book reading, leave it as is.
For example, Irpen adds: the issue of Russophobia is often brought up in connection to the Eastern Europe. This is a weasel phrase and it gives absolutely no information, nor any ways to find an additional info. I may add exactly the same phrase about Russophobia in China, Vietnam, Uzbekistan, Baltic States, Finland, Sweden... Solid facts and research, please. mikka (t) 22:32, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Mikka, your "sigh" wasn't necessary. Now, to the issue. I am afraid, that we can't agree here, because we are talking from different perspectives. You said earlier elsewhere that you were not following the news from Russia for the last 7 years. However, if you did, you would just know that the Russian media, as well as statements from the officials, including Putin himself, are full of such accusations directed towards Eastern Europe. Rightfully or not, they just seize on those things and this is not "some clippings", that's the overall atmosphere.
Of course, it would be best to supply every statement in WP with a reference, but I am afraid that even you don't always do that. When something is a common knowledge, or at least so feels to us, we just write it. When I was saving GKO or Kolyada from VfD, I didn't look up any sources because I was writing on a stubbish surface level and things I wrote seemed to me a common knowledge. You're right that we need to be extra careful when writing on controversial topics, and I was. I tried to make sure the article doesn't say, that Poles and Balts are Russophobic, because I know for a fact that they aren't, BTW. I wrote that they are accused in that, and substituted a shady sourcing (originally "NYT observed that Poles...") by removing the phrase taken out of contexts and giving an exact ref to an article.
Now, the reputable press, in Russia and in the West (like NYT), certainly would not blindly pick up this info from "programma Vremya" to disseminate it. They would more likely observe the trend in other media and report on it withholding their judgement. That's what NYT did. If you do a search in the RU media, you will see that there is the trend there to accuse the neighbors in Rusophobia. And this would not be just some clippings, but this is a predominant mood that you could only see if you follow it. What good would it make to fill the refs section of the article with such links? It would be impossible to tell whether or not these are just "some clippings" as you like to put it. If necessary, go to any news search engine, and you will find all this stuff. I don't think it will help anything if we add those links though. If you are still not convinced, and want to delete the info, I can't prevent you from doing this and I am not interested in this topic enough to keep arguing or rephrasing. I felt that the info is relevant but was presented in a misleading way. I tried to make it better. If you think it is now worse than it was, feel free to correct it yourself. -- Irpen 03:21, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
"However, while it is probably the main reason now, it is not the only historical reason of it. Russophobia has a long tradition and already existed many centuries before Russia became one of major powers in Europe. Russophobia was closely connected with religious aspects, since some, predominantly Catholic neighbours of Orthodox Russia, for many centuries aimed at gaining control of this vast resource-rich country and converting its inhabitants into Catholicism. To justify that, Russians were portrayed as uncultivated infidels and Asiatic barbrarians and these views became spread throughout Central Europe. The history of the long Russo-Polish conflict for the heritage of the ancient Kievan Rus (which Poland eventually lost) and the loss of Polish imperial status surely contributed to these dislikes.
In the 18th century, when Poland was not yet partitioned, Catherine the Great was known for her words: "The Polish people hate us so deeply, that there is no other way out for us and our security, than to subordinate and to control them"." I think its more rather modern Russian nationalistic theory then objective version of events-there wasn't much care in Poland about Russia, as it was concerned more with internal conflict and in no position to challenge it.Catholicism wasn't strong in Poland at that time also, and Poland was not in a position to aim at Russia, since it was a highly decentralised state where every attempt to raise army or centralise power was met with veto of the nobles...-- 82.139.13.231 23:49, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
"Read about the Polish repressive policy in Ukraine and other Orthodox regions." You are mixing up XX century with XVII century...Also this is article about Russia not Ukraine...Hardly anybody cared much about Orthodoxy in Poland anyway besides occasional power struggles. -- Molobo 21:47, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
I find the major expansion to the article by the user:Moonshiner to be very fascinating, informative and questionable at the same time. I am sure, I am not the last who would have some issues with this and I won't even try to list them all. Just one, if I may, perhaps the one particularly close to the topics close to my heart. The new text says:
I only know from the media about Baltics and Moldova, but as for Ukraine the "particularly grievous Russophobia" is a total nonsense. In the country, where the nationalism itself is a fringe set of ideas totally out of the mainstream, Russophobia is even more of an exotic. Yes, certain excesses in Ukrainization of the educational system took place, state support of UOC-KP may have been also partly anti-Russian but this is not even close to be "particularly grievous".
Just a recent illustration is the 2004 presidential election where a politician with a proven record of a good manager, with no significant compromat of any kind was competing with a convicted criminal. The reason why the difference was only 8% is due to the fact that the media supporting the criminal ran a massive campaign trying to paint his opponent a Ukrainian nationalist. These, mostly baseless accusations, but widely enough publicized, raised so many red flags among the voters, that some voted for convicted criminal just not to support the perceived Ukrainian nationalism. In Ukraine, being accused in UA nationalism may end the political career or at least hinder it.
You can judge by a Ukrainian community at Wikipedia that Ukrainian nationalism is an ideology of a fringe minority of it. Same in the whole nation. Fervent Banderivtsis exist on the fringe and the support of these ideas is vary narrow and localized. I just don't want to butcher a beautiful writing of a user:Moonshiner, hoping he will moderate this text on his own. I am sure, more editors who have issues with this text will show up in no time. -- Irpen 05:19, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for your compliments Irpen! While I try to be objective when writing (having in mind that this is particularly important when you're writing an encyclopedia article), I will admit that I sometimes let biases sink in. Having said that, I believe there is and cannot be such a thing as an article without bias. The good thing is that this is the Wikipedia, and whoever disagrees (or more accurately, has their own bias) can express their opinions. With respect to Ukraine, first of all I was refering to what the Russian media had written about it, and second to what I have heard from acquaintances and strangers living there. Many people seem to agree that there is a strong East/West division in the Ukraine, and that there have been some excessive cases of Russophobia in the past in certain regions of the country. I do agree that maybe "particularly grievous" would be too strong a phrase.
I also want to justify the section on the vocabulary of Russophobia, as I think it is particularly important when trying to identify the phenomenon. Having been the target of Russophobia myself (I'm half Russian and half Belarussian), I can say with certainty that whenever someone uses the word 'Muscovite' or 'Moskvich' without first bothering to find out what city you're from, the intent is almost always racist in nature. I feel that 'Muscovy' is used in a similar context when referring to post-Kievan Russia historically (with the intent being somehow to show that the evil 'Muscovites' are responsible for all the imperial ills, never mind that Moscow always constituted the minority of post-Kievan Rus). Obviously, you know someone has a bias when they use the word 'Muscovy' to refer to Russia in a contemporary setting. Moonshiner 01:54, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
1.The picture from Hotel is hardly russophobic-it mentions people from CIS and obviously they aren't all Russians.We don't know if the price is because of prejudice or some other reason(perhaps a lack of business agreement) or past incidents with people from that area. 2.Statements about Poland are highly dubious.I don't think there is any russophobia in Poland.Examples of Brzezinski or Pilsudski ideas are about stoping Russian imperialism towards neighbouring nations that Russia tries to control, certainly we can't say that opposing Russian imperialism or trying to help establish independent Ukraine is russophobic.
You probably forget your own President's recent statement that "Ukraine without Russia is much better than Ukraine with Russia". Please point to the statement.Yes Poland prefers indpendent Ukraine from Russian controled one.Its hardly Russophobia. -- Molobo 16:40, 8 November 2005 (UTC) Like in Pilsudski's days, the Polish elite is dreaming of partitioning Russia and of Caucasian Prometheism Please point to such statements.What I know is that Poles often have symphathy for nations conquered in late XIX century who are longing for independence.-- Molobo 16:40, 8 November 2005 (UTC) Your President elect named a street in Warsaw after the terrorist Dudaev. It seems you posses quite incorrect information the President didn't named anything but local council members of city district did. Secondly it was a square.Secondly Dudayev is named by some freedom fighter, by another terrorist.The fact is that he fought for independence from Russian, the occupation of Chechnya costs money and lives of Russian people.So its rather disputable if it was anti-russian gesture. -- Molobo 16:40, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
The last tour of the Bolshoi Theatre in Warsaw was booed and obsctructed for political reasons, the BBC reports. Again you are incorrect.The reason for the lack of interest was the fact that this theater wasn't the Bolshoi, and claimed so... The Russian children were beaten in Poland this year. As were German, American,French...But only Russian government decided to use a simple criminal of theft to engage in nationalist PR campaign...-- Molobo 16:40, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
I could continue the list of Russophobic acts for hours Please do-so far you haven't listed any. -- Molobo 16:40, 8 November 2005 (UTC) 3.Statement of Catrine before partitions seems like propagandic justification of aggression on Poland.I wouldn't put Hitler's words on Jewish hatred for Germans in germanophobia article for example.. -- Molobo 11:54, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
the Polish people take great pride in their cultural and civilsational superiority as compared to Russians Please point to the article. -- Molobo 13:50, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
The article as it is now is IMHO overhiesterical and should be toned down. Reading this article a user can get an inpression that Russians are whinning wingers obsessed with conspirative theories. IMHO it is incorrect and harmful (Обиженных - ебут, pardon my French).
Anyway we should separate facts and opions. Facts should be either sourced or being accepted as facts by all the editors. Opinions should stated as such (and better attributed and sourced) and ideally balanced by the opposite opinions.
E.g. it is a Fact that Pilsudsky was the President of Poland and had to defend Poland with annexed Ukraine and Belorussia. The statement that his actions were caused not by the rational thoughts but by Russophobia is an opinion. In ideal should be stated as such and such historians attribute such and such actions of Pilsudsky to Russophobia as they were obviouly harmfull for his presidency, etc. abakharev 08:52, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Voyevoda and Irpen, would you read once more what Alex wrote and think a bit?-- AndriyK 19:45, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
During the 19th century, Great Britain and Russia entered a period of imperialistic expansion, many times competing with each other - I do not like this phrase for a number of reasons:
I like most of the other edits by User:Moonshiner abakharev 08:52, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Russophobia is closely connected with religious aspects. In the centuries following the East-West Schism of 1054, the Roman Catholic Church led several efforts aimed at gaining control of Russian territory and converting its inhabitants into Catholicism (see, for example, the Northern Crusades of the Teutonic Knights and Polonization in Ukraine and Belarus). Orthodox Christians were vilified as heathens and heretics, and Orthodoxy itself labeled backwards and barbarian. Today, a similar anti- Orthodox view can be seen in some media accounts seeking to vilify Serbs due to their involvement in the Yugoslav wars.
Now this seems extreme and incorrect on several points -Russia didn't exist at that time -Polonisation was cultural assimiliation mostly -it speaks about Ukraine and Belarus-not Russia -It speaks about Orthodox Religion not Russians(who can be of various faith I believe) -it reaches hight extremism at the end-it speaks about Serbs-not Russians, and only about Orthodox religion, not to mention that the accusation is quite strange, as Orthodox religion is simply ignored by Catholics and West these days
So-its full of unsources and extreme accusations, isn't on topic etc. Thus I have removed it.-- Molobo 11:18, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Halibutt, my disagreement with what you wrote here stems not from the quote which I understood had no ill will of yours. But, as I have pointed out earlier, you, as well as many others who studied history from Polish textbooks, are deluded by many historiographical biases perpetuated there, particularly, about so called "equality" of Polish and Ruthenian nobility (or let's say Catholic and non-Catholic nobilities) and alleged religious tolerances in the PLC. If you consider Russian or Ukrainian historiography also biased to the contrary, you can look at the works of international scholars. Start with Britannica (I have full access if you need me to provide you with quotes).
On the other note, I think that the term Russophobia applied for the time of PLC's sentiment to Russia and Russians is somewhat an anachronism. If the term was coined relatively recently by Shafarevich (a jerk himslef, BTW, if you ask me), we should be careful with where it is applicable. It certainly is applicable to modern negative sentiment towards Russia and Russians. It is also applicable to frivolous history alterations (Finno-Ugric tribes, Muscovite "aggression, barbarism and stupidity" while Polish decency and bravery during 16th-19th century wars) but much stuff I would rather call an "anti-Russian sentiment" rather than with a modern term "Russophobia". OTOH, those phenomena are connected and it would be pointless to keep this in separate articles. Perhaps, we should just elaborate on the history of the term, its usage and connection with earlier conflicts between Russia and the West in general and Catholicism vs Orthodoxy in particular. Maybe a section on that is in order. Just my thoughts. -- Irpen 18:22, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
For the sake of symmetry, I suggest to pattern some passages after Anti-Polonism. For instance, the following passage from that article can be easily retouched into a list of Russian grievances with Poland - both modern (beating Russian children, naming streets after Chechen terrorists, boycotting Bolshoi Theatre, etc) and historical (the massacre of 60,000-80,000 Russian POWs in Bereza Kartuzka, anti-Russian agression, etc.):
Is anyone up to the job? It could start with: "The anti-Russian hysteria has been rampant in Polish and Baltic media for 15 years now". Anyone reading Russian and Polish media will agree that Russian media generally don't heed the Poles as too boring a subject for discussion or lazily retort to the most paranoic of Polish assaults. So let's speak with our Polish friends in the only language they understand. -- Ghirlandajo 12:58, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
beating Russian children Criminal mugging.What does it have to do with Russopbobia.Are Poles USAphobic becouse Americans are robbed in Poland too ? naming streets after Chechen terrorists Well to you he might be a terrorist for trying to regain independence from Russia.But not all people see him that way. the massacre of 60,000-80,000 Russian POWs in Bereza Kartuzka Where did you get that absurdity from ? It's ridiculous to say the least. The fact that it was established in 1934 just one example... anti-Russian agression Like trying to regain lands taken in Partitions ? ;) -- Molobo 13:48, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Nope, Russia has option to sell to China, Japan, and different routes.Russia isn't dependend 90 % on Poland like Poland is on Russia when it comes to oil -- Molobo 15:21, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
When did Russia block any country from its oil, can you cite a single example? Several times in regards to Ukraine, also using price as political blackmail. ' you probably know that they steal huge quanitities of gas' Yes I know Russians have created such accusations to put Ukraine in bad light. -- Molobo 15:21, 9 November 2005 (UTC) Why should Russia feed unfriendly regimes which have been spitting in her space for decades? What do you mean by unfriendly ? Independent ? -- Molobo 15:21, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Nope, again your information is incorrect. Poland refused because it would make Ukraine dependent on Russia, and Polish policy supports independent and free Ukraine.-- Molobo 15:21, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
-- Molobo 15:21, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
What do you mean ? Poland has enemies at home ? Russia's policies aren't hostile to independence of Poland, Ukraine or Belarus ? -- Molobo 15:21, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
I am afraid this comment proves that you aren't an objective contributor. -- Molobo 16:11, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
However Antipolonism is defined differently by Polish dictionary then Russophobia.Its more a hostility towards Poles and their state rather combined with phobia rather then just a phobia itself. I also confess that I didn't see the addition, I have much material on it but the article is attacked at once by German friendly posters every time one puts some mention of atrocities by German state,the contribution you pointed out isn't most important one in my view just to clear up.-- Molobo 14:52, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Some people of Eastern Europe blame(...) and economical stagnation afterwords on the local Russian population. Please give examples of people in Eastern Europe blaming Russians for economic stagnation. -- Molobo 13:58, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
See the blatantly racist description under "Kaliningrad's future" section of the old Kaliningrad edit. http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Kaliningrad&oldid=27062165 You should know something about that since you're the one who deleted that paragraph after my corrections to it. Moonshiner 02:55, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
To avoid disputes, please link all facts in the article with Wikipedia:Footnotes to their relevant Wikipedia:References. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:02, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
There is no sense to deny and to remove the mentioning of the eastern orientation of many Austro-Hungarian Slavs in the second half of the 19th century, beginning with the Panslavic congress in Prague in 1848 until even World War I, when many Slavs deserted Austro-Hungarian army fighting Russians. It is-- Molobo 18:28, 9 November 2005 (UTC) a matter of fact. Whether Russia wanted to incorporate their lands is
So, please, leave this text passage without your Polish POV corrections. Voyevoda 16:51, 9 Novemver 2005 (UTC)
Since the version of Panslavism ideology adopted by Russian thinkers and some thinkers of nations of Southern Slavic origins had often expressed an idea that all nations will controled by Russian Empire thus puts Austro Hungarian reaction in different light and doesn't make it irrational as it now stands in the article. -- Molobo 18:28, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
And this was not the official policy of the Russian Empire. Tsarist Russia adopted panslavic movement and encouraged it, at the same time those panslavist ideologists talked about integrating all Slavic people under Russian control.Since many ethnic groups lived in Austro-Hungary, its worry about Russian desires is understandable. Likewise I wouldn't be surprised to fidn Slavs worried about such Russian projects who enjoyed a relative great degree of freedom in AH compared to what they could expect under Russian Empire. -- Molobo 19:57, 9 November 2005 (UTC) here were in deed some intellectuals who wanted Russia to liberate Slavs under foreign rule, for example Dostoyevsky Well they wanted Russia to rule over them, so its hardly a liberation, if they supported freedom they could agitate to give freedom to Slavs that were opressed by Russians at this time. But this is of topic,just to correct you. -- Molobo 19:57, 9 November 2005 (UTC) Austria-Hungary except disturbing its wannabe sphere of influence. But since Serbs and Bulgars greeted and wanted Russia, and not AH, where's the problem? As you can see Russia interfered in AH sphere of influence and followed a course led out by some panslavists, this means that AH had every right to fear Russian designs. -- Molobo 19:57, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
History of the Habsburg Empire by Robert A Kann page 337 Panslavism was primarily directed by authoritarian, if not despotic, ideologies in tsarists Russia.The showdown between Austria and Russia would probably have led to empire's dismemberment, from which Russia would have benefited more then Germany, which would gain only Alpine lands. The Slavic people, and possibly Magyars would come under tsarists heel. -- Molobo 20:25, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
You won't prove me anything with your biased citations. What to Balkans, Russia fought not AH, but Ottomans and unlike Austrians it had a moral ideal and support of the Balkan peoples to do so. If Austrians were too weak or too little motivated to forestall Russia in the Balkans, the only one they could blame were they themselves. There was no legitimation for morbid Russophobia they allowed to themselves.
But back to Austrian Slavs. Their sympathy with Russia is a historical fact, despite your claims of Russia being authoritarian. In Austria they were subjects to ruthless germanization and social segregation. They knew what they wanted. In Russian Empire foreign peoples were treated very liberally. The best example is the Principality of Finland, which had a complete self-administration and (being part of Russian Empire) introduced the first ever women suffrage in 1906. If it was within the Russian Empire, you can imagine that friendly independent countries would be treated with even more tolerance. An exception was Poland, but it was its own guilt, since it constant betrayals (Napoleon) and uprisings forced the Russian authorities to drive a harder line.
And still I'm awaiting an oficial source which proves that panslavism was Russian official state ideology at that time.
-- Voyevoda 21:30, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
" And still I'm awaiting an oficial source which proves that panslavism was Russian official state ideology at that time." It was definatly seen as such by people of that time.Just for fun, Engels : http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/02/28.htm It is crystal-clear that the Russian invasion is bound to give a new impetus to the pan-Slavist movements of the Czechs and the Southern Slavs. These nationalities who have for a long time been used to look to the Tsar as their natural patron and ultimate liberator, are now receiving striking proof that Austria has neither the power nor the will to ensure their national development. And now for the first time the Russian Tsar enters upon the stage, acts for them at the decisive moment and confirms with deeds the Hopes which they place in him. Thus the Tsar now appears before the Austrian Serbs, Croats, Czechs etc. as the supreme protector of the Slav nationality as he did previously before the Turkish Serbs. And that the Slav national aspirations can be as menacing for the Austrian “united monarchy” as the armed resistance of the Magyars we have seen repeatedly.
With the Russian invasion of Transylvania the Tsar has taken a new step towards the realisation of pan-Slavism. He has proclaimed the alliance of the Russians and the Austrian Slavs and made himself the de facto sovereign of the Austrian Slavs. The others are of course already under his sway. The Poles are his servants, the Turkish Slavs his vassals, and now he poses as the protector of the Austrian Slavs too. Only one more step and Austria falls completely under his suzerainty just like Turkey. At this price the “united monarchy” saves itself for a few months from destruction at the hands of the revolution!"
In Russian Empire foreign peoples were treated very liberally.
http://www.acls.org/crn/network/ebook_gatagova_paper2.doc
THE CRYSTALLIZATION OF ETHNIC IDENITY IN THE PROCESS OF MASS ETHNOPHOBIAS IN THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE
(The Second Half of the 19th Century)
"In the second half of the 19th century, the Russian empire underwent three mass manifestations of ethnophobia (with different levels of intensity): Polonophobia, Germanophobia, and Judophobia."
"Practically all of the Russian government, bureaucracy, and society were united in one outburst against the Poles. The phobia that gripped society gave a new powerful push to the Russian national solidarity movement. This was undoubtedly facilitated by the ethnic character of the Polish liberation movement."
"In Russian national consciousness, the image of the Pole as one from a foreign religion was formed long ago. The Pole's everyday behavior and his clothes were perceived as signs of his Catholic affiliation. Moreover, the Catholic was associated with dark powers. Because in the folk sphere the reflection of historical reality is very often transferred into the unconscious level, the complex, centuries-long history of Russian Polish coexistence have "accumulated" a great mass of myths and legends. These unceasingly feed the dangerously antagonistic relations between the two peoples. Here are some small examples of folk creativity expressing negative stereotypes from one side: "The Polock is a cursed soul" "cursed unbelievers" "dishonest Polocks."
"The organs of the Russian press, for all their multiple private disagreements, completely agreed on the necessity of "increasing Russian nationality in the western provinces."25 Criticizing government action in these provinces, they complained about officials who, in their opinion, were incapable of action to strengthen Russian nationalism and defend it from Polonism."26 In the report of the Third Section [the Government Censorship] for 1866, it is said that in spite of all the "strong measures" undertaken by the government in the western region, the polish population "has not changed in its political convictions, its feelings for the government, or its feelings towards Russians in general."27 We can find a very typical illustration of the mindset of Russian society of that time in the composition of A. Vostokov, entitled "A Russian's Instruction to His Son Before his Son is sent for Service in the Southwestern Russian regions." Cautioning his inexperienced offspring against possible mistakes, the caring father exclaims: "In all your service in Western Russia do not forget that although the Polish and their kind have Slavic blood, they are all irreconcilable, cursed enemies of Russia and Orthodoxy, breathing hellish hatred "28 Commentary, as it is called, seems unnecessary." -- Molobo 23:46, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
I am afraid the article went a bit out of control. The term "russophobia" itself has not commonly been used is such a broad context. I'd say it is a rather neologism, and to apply to times long gone is anachronism. All what is written here mat have a title Anti-Russian sentiments and to reserve the "-phobia" title to the article that deals with a pejorative term that refers to irrational and/or unjustified things with recorded usage that were there initially, before the recent major expansion. mikka (t) 21:42, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Muscovy is not a russophobic term. It is used frequently in many highly respected historical works published in the English language. For evidence, see this Google Print search. We even have a Wikipedia article with that title, for crying out loud. Balcer 22:29, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
The name Moskale used historiclly in Polish to describe Russians (as opposed to the Ruthenians) isn't antirussian, just consider the poem "Do przyjaciul Moskali" by Polish national poet Adam Mickiewicz. It is simply and anachronism replaced today by Rosjanie as opposed to Ukraincy/Bialorusini.
Muscovy is a word favoured by russophobes and Ukrainian/Polish/Belarusian nationalists who want to deny Russia's relation to Kievan Rus/Ruthenia. They don't like to use the similar sounding term Russia since in their propaganda Muscovites are a foreign barbaric Finno-Ugric and Mongol people. For them, the legitimate successor of Kievan Rus is Great Duchy of Lithuania and later Poland (no matter that they never were part of Kievan Rus, are of foreign ethnicity and religion). Russia is not Rus for them, but a mutated Moscow principality - that's why they call it Muscovy. Muscovites are a strange enigma and nobody knows where they came from and how to categorise them culturally. Probably they are descendants from the family of Ursidae.
Muscovy - terra incognita (Ukrainian) http://www.geocities.com/dir88de/moskovija.html
Voyevoda 23:29, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Don't mix the term "Principality of Moscow" with the broader use of Muscovy for the time when Moscow rulers were already crowned Tzars (early 16th century) and started to use the title the "Sovereign of all Rus'" which they were in fact increasingly becoming expanding the territory they controlled. However, the term Muscovy is often aplied well past that time and into the most of 17th century even though usually without ill intention, but perhaps incorrectly. -- Irpen 04:05, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I've been to Poland a few times, both during Soviet times and recently and can personally atest that Poles, who are presented here as rabid Russian haters, are in fact very friendly and sympathetic towards us. People in Poland are indeed very suspicious towards Russia, and with good reasons too, but that doesn't translate towards their attitude towards the Russian nation. The argument raised in this disscusion are simply absurd, they seem as if though written by provocators.