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This article needs to have various slurs (e.g. entitling a section as "Forgeries" is very POV) removed. The fringe theories of one school of related academics on Firkovich needs to be put into a "Critics" section if indeed there is any need at all for such comments in an article like this one (being that the published opinions of Nazi critics would not be deemed appropriate let alone tolerated on any article about a Jew, so-too the opinion of Karaite Jewish authors on Karaylar is inappropriate given that Karaite Jews consider Karaylar to be "bastards"). The details of this dispute have been outlines in the underlying topic areas. Kaz 00:47, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
The first thing I said below, even before you added all the tags, is that the first mention of Karaylar has to be wikilinked, and that link then has to be then discussed and cleared up. Meaning that we will have to refer that page too. But even after putting all your tags, you come here and make bulk changes, remove content, introduce new non-neutral content, all in buld and you expect that to stand? No, it will not stand, as I will revert it back to 1906, which is the only reliable source referenced so far. After that we can start again, word by work, sentence by sentence, as I said already three times. Not in bulk as you did again, whithout even bothering to identify yourself. warshy talk 18:08, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
To the anonymous editor who is trying to make this correction and add information based on an apparently reliable source he names. I don't know the source but the change and the new information being provided seem interesting and also relevant. If you're willing to put a link to the source here, in the same manner it would be added to the article, I am definitely willing to look at it and accept your suggested correction and new info based on it. Maybe you're also willing to name yourself? Thanks, warshy talk 13:31, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
Yep, I just saw his book mentioned there in the "Further Reading" section. Maybe you can add the link to the book online here. Thanks, warshy talk 15:56, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
Any insertion of new sectarian content into this page will have to be discussed here, point by point, sentence by sentence. Otherwise it is just going to be undone. warshy talk 23:01, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
It seems you are saying that (despite the wiki neutral POV policies) that removal of weasle words and heavy POV needs to be discussed, but in fact the real discussion should be whether there is any need to put in such comments in the first place. However judging by your unilateral reversion of every recent edit, it looks like there will be no fruitful discussion here until a completely neutral editor will come along to mediate. I know everything about this topic as I am a Karaylar, but that also puts me at a disadvantage because I am likely to get too emotional and not be able to see beyond my own POV. But the advantage is, I can see very clearly the slanderous POV in the article already. Sadly with a population of just a few thousand and no real publications in English (very few of us even speak English) I do not see how to rectify the situation well, especially since the only people who have taken an interest in us are people who have had an agenda to disprove our legitimacy as a nation. Luckily for the Jews, people other than Nazis wrote about them so there is plenty of material from non-Jewish point of view concerning Jews. Unfortunate for us Karaylar that the so-called "scientific" literature about us all comes from the nation with the deepest hatred for our existence.Kaz 08:37, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Also, in your suggested "blank" change from Karaite to Karaylar there is no wikilink at all to the term "karaylar". That would be the first step. And then we can go paragraph by paragraph on your suggested changes. warshy talk 15:12, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
Studying a little better the Khazar history, I now see where the brewing religious polemic in this page is coming from. There is a historical confusion between two types of Karaites, and Firkovich himself is at the root of this confusion. Karaites in general of the brand supposedly started by Anan ben David are historically linked and identified with Jews, being a stream that seceded from Rabbinic Judaism. However, in the Southern part of the Russian Empire in the 19th century, in the Ukraine and Crimea, the Karaites were already mostly Muslims in their actual religion. In addition to this religious division, for political reasons that had to do with minority rights within the Russian Empire, Firkovich wanted to completely, finally dissociate the Karaites from the Jews. That is why he sought to claim that ethnically "Karaites" descended from the Khazars, not from the Jews. And he in the end succeeded in convincing the imperial authorites to grant Karaites in Russia a separate, independent and autonomous status as a minority, a privileged status, since Karaites did not have to serve in the imperial army as Jews had. Firkovich himself was not a Muslim, as were not most of the Karaites in Lithuania, which was the historical intellectual center of Karaite life. However, by seeking to completely dissociate himself and the Karaites in Russia from the Jews, and by insisting on the ethnic roots based on the historical Khazars for the Karaites, he ended up associating himself with the Southern part of the Karaite population in Russia, who were mostly Muslims. These are the Karaylars, whose representative here, Mr. "Kaz" is now again trying to claim for Muslims the mantle of the true Karaites. warshy talk 23:37, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
Basically, you are saying you are a "Torah observant cleric" of some ethnic religious sect who actually believes is Jesus and Muhammad as their profets. Basically a Muslim ethnic sect who apparently call themselves 'Karaimi'. That's a rather peculiar and weird religious "mix." But you are welcome to believe whatever you want to believe, of course. I myself have no religion and no religious beliefs. But that is another matter alltogether, about which there can be no argument here. As far as history is concerned, and history of the Karaites in particular, all we need here are arguments that come from reliable secondary sources. warshy talk 13:57, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
If I may ask, just for my own curiosity, if you believe in Muhammad as a very faithfull Muslim, as you seem to be (and on Jesus too on top of that), why do you need to be "Torah observant" at all (whatever that means...). Neither Muhammad nor Jesus, I think, were "Torah observant" in that sense of the expression. Certainly not Muhammad. But that (even though I think it would grant the epiteth "peculiar and weird") is certainly beyond the historical point of this article. What precisely is the "disgusting ad-hominem POV in this article" you are referring to? warshy talk 16:33, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
Faithfull Muslims and followers of Muhammad, from Khazar ethnic descent, who also believe in "Torah." Be my guest. I believe, when you say "Torah" you are referring to Hebrew Scripture as it is represented in the Moscow Masoretic Text wich was, by the way, donated to the Russian archives by Firkovich himself. That is the only religious text I read or study, and only in versions that follow the Firkovich manuscripts themselves.[ In this lifetime I don't believe I will ever read the Christian Gospel in Greek, or the Koran in Arabic.] Never mind. As to the point at hand, your generic allusions do not help me at all. I understand that current Western historical research has cast some suspicions on some of Firkovich's ethnic "discoveries," and that obviouly you are interested in clearing his name completely, as he appears to be some "saint" of your sect. In any case, as I said, we can go line by line and word by word in changing and improving whatever needs to be changed and/or improved, as long as you provide a reliable secondary source/reference for any suggested change or improvement. warshy talk 19:05, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
I think you might like this http://www.turkiye.net/sota/karhist.htm Kaz 15:43, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
No, I don't. And this is not a reliable source. But why not start with Firkovich's own ethnic origins, his own ethnic roots? The article states:
He was born in Lutsk, Volhynia, then lived in Lithuania, and finally settled in Çufut Qale, Crimea.
If you know some Jewish history and you read through his wanderings, his political activities, and his career, you can see he had himself no drop of Turkic, Crimean, or Muslim ancestry in his blood at his origins. He was originally an European Russia Karaite (with close ties to European Russia Jews in Volhynia and Lithuania), who spoke Yiddish as a child, and learned Hebrew, and later Russian (and other languages too). After associating himself with Sima Babovich, settling in the Crimea, and becoming the political leader of the Crimean 'Karaites', the story changes, of course. And when you look at their admirable political success in legally separating themselves from the Jews in the imperial halls of Russian power in St. Petersburg, then the whole historical mess and confusion between Karaites and Muslim Crimean Karaites starts to make a lot more sense. warshy talk 16:58, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
That constitutes original research. You have no source. All you do is prove your ignorant and biased POV which should be removed from the article. But which you keep shoving back in every time anyone tries to remove it. Even though you have no sources. Kaz 20:26, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
I did not put/add a letter of editing into the article as it is so far. All I did was restore content that was removed without discussion. What I wrote above is not in the article, it is in the talk page, where improvements to the article should be discussed. It was a first response to the outside biased non-reliable source you yourself recommended for my reading. My sources so far are this WP article itself and the 1906 Jewish Encyclopaedia article on the public domain on which it is based. This is a recognized public domain reliable source on which many WP articles are also based. Buy I will be following up with other sources soon. As for all the tags you put in the article, they don't bother me at all. Quite the contrary, since it was you that started changing content without discussion. I have said from the beginning that I am willing to discuss any change/improvement to the article sentence by sentence here. So all the tags you put just do exactly that: no content will be changed except content that is discussed here first and upon which some type of consensus is reached. As for the "fringe theories" tag, here is an example of the "pot calling the kettle black" if I have ever seen one. Your theories about the ethnic descent of Karaites, based on Firkovich's own theories, are the fringe theories as far as current historical research is concerned. But, no ptoblem either. All these matters will be properly discussed and cleared out in due time, based on existing reliable secondary sources on the subject. warshy talk 13:49, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
No one would use a Nazi encyclopedia as a reliable source about a Jew, so why should anyone accept a Jewish encyclopedia as a reliable source about a Karaylar "bastard" as they call us? 86.26.236.107 ( talk) 23:48, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
The opinion of the mionority in question can not be considered fringe but must be presented honestly. The opinion of a hostile majority will always be considered fringe if it is contrary to the opinion of the minority itself. 86.26.236.107 ( talk) 19:41, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Now that I have caught up a bit on the updated Wikipedia definitions of slurs being used above here, I must say I take very serious offense at the slanderous accusation being thrown at me above. But opportunities to redress this obnoxious grievance will come, I believe, at the right time and the right Wikipedia forum. Unless, that is, you forthwith erase this slander above and apologize for the ignominy right away, right here in this page.
As for what we know (me and you as two individuals) or don't know about Firkovich, I will just ask you a couple of simple, straighforward questions. The article states that these are Firkovich's major works:
- Masah u-Meribah
- Abne Zikkaron
- Khotam Toknit
- Mibkhar Yesharim
- Evel Kavod
- Bene Reshef
Have you ever seen any of these books or manuscripts? If you ever saw them, would you be able to read them? Can you give me here the correct meaning, according to your own understanding, of each of these titles? Thank you. warshy talk 15:57, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
"no few therein forgery Firkovich attribute," what does this mean? Is it an edit gone wrong? 71.163.114.49 ( talk) 22:17, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
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Professor Meira Polliack affirms ( Karaite Judaism: A Guide to Its History and Literary Sources, p. 849):
Abraham Firkovich's discoveries, both the documents found by him in the synagogues of Derbent and Madjalis and the Crimean tombstone inscriptions, seemd to testify to the settlement of Jews in the Crimea in ancient times and these Jews were the forefathers of the Karaims. [...] Firkovich considered the Karaims to be descendants of the unione betwen the early Karaite Jews in the Krimea and their Kazarian turkic co-religionists...
The aformentioned book cites this free paper as its primary source.
Nothing similar isn't yet mentioned in the WP article. Some more expert users can evaluate if it is something that has to be yet integrated. Hope this helps.Micheledisaveriosp81