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Hello, I just was wondering if anyone could help me to improve an article that I am creating that is a table of US presidents heights and weights. It can be found at /info/en/?search=Draft:Heights_and_weights_of_US_presidents. If you could help me that would be greatly appreciated. Pickup Andropov ( talk) 15:53, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Timeline of the Donald Trump presidency#Requested move 26 May 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe Edits! Talk! 04:25, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Prosecution of Donald Trump in New York#Requested move 31 May 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RodRabelo7 ( talk) 18:49, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
Hello to contributors to WikiProject:United States Presidents! I am hoping that this talk page is the appropriate place for a discussion over a content policy disagreement that I've had with other editors over navigation templates for articles related to U.S. presidential administrations and their policies.
The discussions were held on my talk page this past January, then at the Presidential Succession Act article talk page this past February, and again at my talk page this month. The disagreement in the first discussion was over including legislation that was signed into law by specific Presidents in their respective navigation templates. While the first disagreement led to a resolution that this could be permitted, the second disagreement did not on the basis that the templates were primarily for articles that were related to the president's biography and that laws enacted by the Presidents generally did not belong in their biography templates. This month, I created separate templates for the presidential administrations of Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush, and George W. Bush. The templates include the laws along with other policies and speeches given while the individuals served as President, and only include a link to the main biography article of the Presidents and none of the other articles related to the President as a person.
I believe that these templates meet the criteria of the WP:NAV and WP:NAVBOX policies for good navigation templates, and I do not believe that these templates would violate the WP:NENAT or WP:ATC policies. To reiterate some of the arguments I made at the previous discussions in reference to the new templates, I believe that they provide value to casual readers skimming articles while browsing the website because that is what navigation templates were created to help facilitate, and that articles related to U.S. public policy need to kept easily navigable partially so that content issues with the articles get more readily addressed due to increased attention to the articles (which they do not generally receive if they are only included on categories and lists). As a side note, while WikiProject United States Government appears to still be active, WikiProject United States Public Policy and WikiProject U.S. Congress are not. As such, I would hope that the contributors to this WikiProject might have more to contribute to this disagreement in order build a larger consensus about an appropriate application of the content policies I've cited than between myself and three other editors. Thanks! -- CommonKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 03:04, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
The duplicated information is already on the navboxes, there is no separating Ronald Reagan's biography from Ronald Reagan's presidency. They include the same things and the stand-along "presidency" navbox is a duplicate...First of all, the links are not duplicated. The presidential administration navboxes only include links to articles related to the presidential administrations and not to articles about other periods or topics related to each president's life, and the biography templates as I modified them still include a single link to the main article about their presidency and no other articles about their presidency. As such, they follow the non-overlapping requirements of the WP:NENAT and WP:ATC policies. Each presidential administration has a well-defined start date and a well-defined end date, and as such, it is quite easy to separate the articles related to a president's biography that are not related to their presidency from articles that are related to their presidency; the former are a broad set, while the latter are a well-defined subset. As per the discussion on my talk page in January, I noted that while the templates may be longer than some editors might prefer, the templates can be separated into smaller ones about specific areas of public policy of the administration. I would note a similar issue has been raised about navigation templates for U.S. Supreme Court cases by clause and section of the U.S. Constitution and other topics and those templates are still actively used and updated.
[The navboxes] are bloated because CKCreator added every bill that crossed the Resolute desk, even if Reagan had nothing to do with it aside from signing or vetoing. Because of this bloat the main items that Reagan and the others mentioned are known for are mixed in with dozens of minor bills almost tangential to anything to do with Reagan. Then the main navbox has been removed from the articles by CKCreator, thus harming and not improving Wikipedia's collection of maps to the topic. Nothing is broken and much information is lost to page readers when a lesser navbox replaces the full navbox.The biography templates as User:Randy Kryn has proposed do not have a well-defined scope of which articles related to a presidential administration should be included in the biography template and what articles should not be included except for ones that are considered to be "accomplishments" of the administration. As I noted in the discussion on my talk page in January, what qualifies as an "accomplishment" does not and cannot have objective criteria and attempting to only include certain presidential actions as "accomplishments" qualifies or should qualify as a violation of WP:NPOV since many decisions by presidents are actively debated by historians, social scientists, public policy scholars, and political commentators. The only inclusion criteria that is objective is which administration made the policy decision, while deciding whether any decision is an "accomplishment" is or should be beyond the scope of Wikipedia per the WP:FORUM and WP:NOR policies.
If it feels personal maybe because I've asked you many times to stop adding every bill that crossed a president's desk to the navboxes, but you kept doing so. This next step of actually emptying president's navboxes of their presidencies is one I'm glad that you're at least stopping to consider what other editor's think, I've given my opinion, thanks.See what I already said about WP:UNDUE. You seem not to appreciate that the way the biography templates violates that policy, and I don't need to consider other editors opinions when content on the website
Hi, I'm here at CKCreator's invitation.
Wow, CKCreator, I appreciate all the time and effort you and/or Randy Kryn put into these, but I don't see how they're helpful here at Wikipedia. Where do you propose placing them in the biographies? They would take up a large amount of article space and be distracting, imho. They're not very easy to read. Finding a particular item is difficult. To use George W. Bush's as an example, I'm overwhelmed. Shoeing incident? (Actually, I remember that, but why is it in the template?) Space policy? Clean Boating Act of 2008?
The only use I can imagine for such templates would be in a collection of presidential templates, similar in idea to our list articles. Best wishes, YoPienso ( talk) 01:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
And no, the Clean Boating Act of 2008 is very tangential.As I said, the WP:UNDUE and WP:NAVBOX policies require that topics in a navigation template are not given greater weight than others. Your recommendations about what should be done do not conform to content policy. -- CommonKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 03:37, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
...we already have templates like this one on George W. Bush.The template you linked is the biography template of George W. Bush that has had all of the other articles related to his presidential administration removed by myself, and I agree that the biography template is preferable this way. The presidential administration templates would be created to trim all of the biography templates down in this way, which User:Randy Kryn opposes. -- CommonKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 12:23, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
Where do you propose placing them in the biographies? They would take up a large amount of article space and be distracting, imho.Generally, navboxes are included at the bottom of the page in a collapsed state and is where these would be included. I would prefer that the presidential administration navboxes not even be included in the biography articles and only in the presidency articles and the articles related to the presidency, but User:Randy Kryn objected to excluding links to the biography articles in the presidential administration templates at the discussion on my talk page this month.
I don't see how the [templates are] helpful here at Wikipedia. ... They're not very easy to read. Finding a particular item is difficult. To use George W. Bush's as an example, I'm overwhelmed. Shoeing incident? (Actually, I remember that, but why is it in the template?) Space policy? Clean Boating Act of 2008?WP:NAVBOX lists the advantages of such templates, but principally they keep related articles easily navigable for casual readers browsing the website and provide links to articles with limited numbers of links to them. The shoeing incident, space policy, and Clean Boating Act of 2008 are in the Presidency of George W. Bush navbox because they are articles related to Bush's presidency. While WP:NAVBOX also does not place a restrictions on the length of templates, if smaller navigation templates could be separated from a larger ones following the criteria for good navigation templates, then the policy appears to imply that's preferable. I've suggested that the templates I created can be split by the broad policy categories (e.g. foreign, domestic, economic), but I think that should only be done after all of the articles have been collected first since many of these articles have limited numbers of links to them. -- CommonKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 12:43, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
I was in invited by CommonKnowledgeCreator to join this discussion. As far as the Presidential Templates (PTs) go, I see no POV issues with including them, on their own merit, in their own respective Presidential articles, but not the Presidential bio articles. The PTs should just be a summary list, not a list of every speech, executive orders, or legislation passed. In my opinion, it is not necessary to link the PTs together, but rather, the PTs can just stand alone in their own Presidental Articles. To save space the PTs could be hidden in the Presidential article. The reader, then, just clicks a PTs title bar to expand or open the PTs information. I hope I am understanding the situation correctly. I am not taking sides with anyone in this discussion, just giving my own opinions on the matter. Hope this helped. Thank you. Cmguy777 ( talk) 19:15, 11 July 2024 (UTC)