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current talk page.
Thanks for the links. The first one seems to say that the name change will take place after midnight. I'll keep an eye on the team's website.
Zagalejo^^^03:12, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
You are invited to join a discussion on integrating the WNBA infobox into the Basketball biography infobox
Hmmm. Every time I try to click on an NBA.com infobox link, I get a message that says, "An error (500 Internal Server Error) has occured in response to this request."
Zagalejo^^^02:20, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
Your's might be a different issue, since when you go to
http://www.nba.com/players/ all the links seem to have 500 error. FWIW, the URLs there are still the same format as the ones we are using for active players.—
Bagumba (
talk)
06:31, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
From what I've seen, the stats.nba.com pages are more accurate. I'm finding that a lot of the regular NBA.com profiles have rounding errors.
Zagalejo^^^05:22, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
I'm wary of changing our templates to use stats.nba.com when its url is based on a numeric ID and not a player's name. I've seen too many sites change their ID schemes and not provide redirects. I'm still hoping that they will eventually just incorporate the new stats into the old profile URLs.—
Bagumba (
talk)
06:20, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
Who to list as NBA owner
Resolved
– Articles refer to "Jerry Buss family trust" as owner.
I'm not sure what criteria have been used to list people on that template. The team media guides might give guidance in some cases. For right now, "Buss family" is probably the best thing to use. When the Lakers release their next media guide, we can see how they describe people.
Zagalejo^^^19:39, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
The template refers to Jerry Buss, which makes sense for wholesale purposes absent an article about the Buss family trust. However, I don't think it is appropriate to remove the template from the living individual members of that trust as
User:Bagumba just did based on this limited discussion. They might not be FULL owners of an NBA team, but they are participating in the ownership of a team.
Trackinfo (
talk)
18:56, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
In playoffs stats tables for some bios like
Kobe_Bryant#Playoffs, an entry is marked "Led the league". Since each team plays a different number of games, and there is no set minimum, this designation seems trivial. I doubt many sources outside of stats databases mention it. I propose to remove them.—
Bagumba (
talk)
17:45, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
I've seen lists of playoff leaders in a few places. (My local newspaper, for one, has such lists.) However, it's not really essential info. Short bursts of production are often favored over steady production throughout the playoffs. A guy who puts up big numbers while his team is swept in the first round can end up as the leader in a category for the whole playoffs.
Zagalejo^^^16:51, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
this Lewis was known as both over his college and pro career - I think the year needs to be present regardless as "Bob" and "Bobby" are too similar.
Rikster2 (
talk)
03:10, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
Moved to
Bobby Lewis (basketball, born 1945). Leaving the year seems weird when there is no other Bobby Lewis that plays basketball, but since we're combining Bob, Bobby, Robert, etc at
Robert Lewis, maybe it makes sense. Too trivial to spend more time on it, so went with Rikster2's suggestion.—
Bagumba (
talk)
03:15, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Does anyone know how to find the past winners of the NBA D-League Finals MVP Award? I am assuming a bio that I do (
Glen Rice, Jr.) has won it this year for averaging 29 pt, 11.5 rb, 4 ass, 3 st, and 3.5 bl in the finals sweep. That is about the most important D-League template that does not exist.--
TonyTheTiger (
T/
C/
BIO/
WP:CHICAGO/
WP:FOUR)
03:56, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Subject is not particularly notable or significant even within the field of the NBA, and may have been included primarily to achieve comprehensive coverage of another topic.
A generic page for an entire basketball season (e.g.
2006–07 NBA season)
HIGH
Page for yearly NBA Draft, Records, Playoffs.
HIGH
Teams
The main basketball article of the top NBA teams in modern times (i.e. teams that have Won a NBA Championship - (e.g.
Detroit Pistons,
Dallas Mavericks)
TOP
The main basketball article of all other NBA teams.
An article on any other specific team's single season
LOW
Players & Coaches
An article on a specific person in the basketball hall of fame or who is a recipient of a major award or set major NBA record.(MVP,DPoY,ROY, points, rebounds, assists).
HIGH
Historic person considered fundamental to the understanding of the NBA.
HIGH
Any head coach who won the NBA Championship.
HIGH
Any head coach with multiple appearances in the post-season.
MID
A player who was considered a "star" and/or won less notable awards or set lesser NBA record. (Sixth-man, steals, free-throw %, 3 pointers made)
MID
An article on any other specific player, coach or person
LOW
Facilities and Traditions
An article on a basketball stadium of historical importance
MID
An article on any other basketball stadium or facility.
LOW
An article on a specific rivaly or a specific historic game.
LOW
An article on a very well known team tradition, mascot, saying, etc.
MID
Any other team tradition, mascot, saying, etc.
LOW
Awards and Records
An article on a major NBA award or record. (MVP,DPoY,ROY, points, rebounds, assists).
HIGH
An article on a lesser known NBA award or record. (Sixth-man, steals, free-throw %, 3 pointers made)
You have a point. I think we should implement a better importance scale right away instead of waiting for more comments. The current scale is not clear and standardized at all. If anyone disagrees, we can always discuss and make changes. Thoughts?—Chris!c/
t23:22, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
I have a rather confusing situation. While working on a list, I came across a Don Martin who played in the 1940s without an article. I tried
Don Martin (basketball), but that is Dino Martin, a player who not only also played in the late 1940s, but both were born in 1920, so even that disambiguation option does not work. What to do here? I'm thinking a redirect to Dino Martin for the player-coach and having Don Martin (basketball) be the other guy may be best, but am not positive.
Wizardman00:08, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
That's probably OK. The Boston College coach was commonly known as Dino. Otherwise, you might end up with something really complicated. (By the way, the Boston College coach died almost fourteen years ago. I'll correct that article shortly.)
Zagalejo^^^01:49, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Issue with statistics showing on basketball biography infobox
Hello - I recently created
Craig Shelton and have not been able to get his NBA stat totals to display in his infobox - can anyone tell what I am doing wrong? Thanks for the help.
Rikster2 (
talk)
12:09, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Is such a template really necessary/desired? The NBA Combine isn't nearly as high profile as the NFL version IMO. I think combine scores are a very minor part of a player's history.
Rikster2 (
talk)
12:07, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
You having seen two days' worth of extraneous ESPN2 coverage does not mean anything in regards to each respective league's combine importance. The NFL Draft combine is a major, major deal. The NBA's really isn't. I don't think this template is worth creating. More article fluffery IMHO.
Jrcla2 (
talk)
14:10, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
I never heard of the NBA draft combine until last year, whereas the NFL draft combine has been a big deal for years. However, the template is not a statement about the combines, but rather one about a player's measurements at a point in time. A template would give us a nice standardized way to present pre-draft measureables. They are out there in secondary sources and we, as a tertiary source, are suppose to be summarizing those sources. 4 (Burke, Hardaway, Pressey, Rice, but not Hummer) of the 5 guys that I write were at the combine. I would prefer to present pre-draft measurables in a standardized way. The template is not my attempt to authenticate the NBA draft combine. It is a way for me to present pre-draft measurables in a standardized way regardless of the NBA-NFL combine relative significances.--
TonyTheTiger (
T/
C/
BIO/
WP:CHICAGO/
WP:FOUR)
15:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
I'm not so sure about this. Beyond height and weight, most of these figures aren't commonly discussed, except in extreme cases.
Zagalejo^^^16:45, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Why are pre-draft measurables important? Players have height/weight listed by their college, then by their pro team. I agree with Zag that nobody cares about standing vertical or any of the other stuff except for the few weeks leading from the combine to the Draft. Having too much extraneous "stuff" in an article obscures the important information in my opinion.
Rikster2 (
talk)
17:34, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
As with anything else on WP, we judge "Who cares" by whether there are a lot of secondary sources. Obviously a lot of people care about vertical leap, wingspan, etc.--
TonyTheTiger (
T/
C/
BIO/
WP:CHICAGO/
WP:FOUR)
17:57, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Whatever. Nobody gives a crap about this stuff beyond the window between the combine and the draft. Specialized news sources will always fill in when no real news exists - it's one of the many flaws with the current GNG. But whatever, you are going to do what you want to do anyway.
Rikster2 (
talk)
18:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Flat out I am not in favor of adding this information as a rule to basketball articles. I really don't think it adds anything to NFL articles today. If everyone else like the idea, great - do it, but I am registering an opinion that this is an editorial choice made by the football project that I don't think we should follow. I don't have an issue with noting cases where combine performance led to some rise in draft stock (like Miles Plumlee last year), but otherwise it is just extraneous IMO.
Rikster2 (
talk)
16:02, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Add the info when it makes a difference. That is a slippery slope. There are probably 6-10 guys who should have the information in their articles every year then. So why not have a template.--
TonyTheTiger (
T/
C/
BIO/
WP:CHICAGO/
WP:FOUR)
16:21, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
It can be in prose as needed, with an explanation of why certain measurements made a difference, e.g. a quote that he was faster that expected, as strong as some other star player in the past, etc. Adding a template invites editors to indiscriminately add raw combine measurements to a bio, and adding a box for something that needs to be explained in prose adds an undue perceived importance to these numbers.—
Bagumba (
talk)
18:07, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Order of Most Improved vs All-NBA in infobox highlights
There have been some recent changes at
Paul George regarding this issue. A previous discussion at
Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Archive_20#Order_of_NBA-specific_highlights determined that Most Improved was not one of the more notable honors, and should be listed lower.
This more recent edit added it above his All-NBA third. IMO, even a third-team All-NBA is more notable than Most Improved. All-NBA honors that leagues top players, whereas Most Improve just says you got a lot better without any claims as to a players actual standing in the league. It would be nice to get some consistency, if feasible.—
Bagumba (
talk)
18:42, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Request to increase club threshold on Infobox: basketball biography
Resolved
– Increased to 40.
I was editing
Isaiah Morris and found out the hard way that the limit to the number of clubs that can be added to the basketball infobox is 25 (Morris played for 26 clubs). I'd like to request that the threshold be raised so that no matter how many clubs a player competed for it can handle them (maybe raise to 40?). What is happening is that editors are getting around the infobox limits by entering a bunch of clubs in entry 25 - whih looks awful. I think if we raise it to 40 that will cover 99.9% of players' careers and keep the infobox clean. Can we just do this or is some sort of consensus needed? Anyone know how to up the limit? Thanks!
Rikster2 (
talk)
02:37, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Some bios have been edited
such as this one that place a player's respective jersey number next to each team in his career history. I think it's too much information for an infobox to break down by team. It can be discussed in prose, like it is in
Derek Fisher. Also, the new parameter "career_number" can be used to list all the numbers a player has worn in his career. If it's important enough, it should just be a dedicated column. Otherwise, the format looks clumsy.—
Bagumba (
talk)
04:51, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
I've undone all the changes for now. Can add back if there is consensus. I applaud editors for
being bold, but widespread changes are usually better discussed first to save the initial effort to edit and then the subsequent undos.—
Bagumba (
talk)
06:01, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Not in favor of adding these. They look cluttered. The only change to the club history that might be worth debating would be a dedicated field for league or country, to replace the paranthetical statements.
Rikster2 (
talk)
11:18, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
I thought readers should know the number of tye player of the team. If I caused disorganization to the pages I edited, I apologize for causing this. lego_death_star — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Lego death star (
talk •
contribs)
18:24, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
LeBron's salary is a topic that is frequently searched on the internet and his salary is among the highest in the NBA. It will be helpful to provide a table that shows LeBron's salary also because there is no salary information in any of the texts in the article, only contracts. The text mentions that LeBron is listed as one of the world's highest paid athletes because of his NBA salary and endorsments. There is information about his value in contracts but not his NBA salary.— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Robert4565 (
talk •
contribs)
05:00, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
Featured List review help
Hey guys, I've had the page
List of North Carolina Tar Heels in the NBA Draft nominated for FL for over two months now and the review needs some more input. I was just curious if some of you with spare time could check out the page and post corrections you spot or if you think the page is fine, then post support on the review. All help is appreciated.
Disc Wheel (
Malk +
Montributions)
18:29, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
Remind me again what we do with Summer League signings?
Now that the draft is over and NBA teams are starting to fill out their Summer League rosters, I am trying to remember what was decided about handling these from an infobox perspective. For example, somebody edited
Brandon Paul to reflect his Summer League team. To me, this feels misleading since the teams haven't made much of a commitment to the player. Heck,
Ian Clark signed with two different teams. Feels like it is reasonable to note draft picks as members of the team unless they sign elsewhere (usually the teams list them on their official rosters), but not Summer League. I want to revert some if these edits, but not if it has previously been discussed and deemed acceptable.
Rikster2 (
talk)
15:24, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
I wouldn't put the Summer League team in the infobox (unless there's already evidence of a long-term commitment). Those players might end up joining different teams for the regular season, if they even make it that far. A brief mention of the Summer League team might be OK in the body of the article.
Zagalejo^^^00:47, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
League display name in NBA infoboxes?
"National Basketball Association" or "NBA?" I don't mind updating these, but we should use a consistent display name.
Rikster2 (
talk)
15:10, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Not necessarily. NBA.com publishes third-party reports and commentary. Some of them are simply AP articles. Most transactions cannot be officially completed until July 10.
What are you looking at on NBA.com? If it's
this, note that the article says, "The person spoke Friday night on condition of anonymity because the deal has not been officially announced." When it is official, there should be a press release on the 76ers' website. (It would look something like
this.)
It does get confusing. Nowadays, most of the front page content on NBA.com is not coming from the league office. As a general rule of thumb, the team websites are a better source for official announcements.
Zagalejo^^^03:39, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
If we don't even have an article for the award, does it need to be mentioned in the infobox? For that matter, does it even need a navbox? While it sounds prestigious, I never hear too many people talk about it. It's another one of those redundant awards, like the ESPYs.
Zagalejo^^^20:43, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
There are a lot of infobox highlights presented that don't have links. I am not sure if that is a valid criteria. I don't think for a player that has so many linked infobox highlights, it belongs in the infobox. For a lesser player this honor may belong. We create infoboxes for several of the teams selected by
USA Basketball who send about three teams out a year. Why not an infobox on for the most valuable player for all the teams that they send out. I don't see what it is redundant with.--
TonyTheTiger (
T/
C/
BIO/
WP:CHICAGO/
WP:FOUR)
21:24, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
I think people are more likely to remember that James won a gold medal in the Olympics than an internal award from USA Basketball.
Zagalejo^^^01:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
"Notable Undrafted Players"
I noticed that folks have started to add players to this section at
2013 NBA Draft. I had thought the consensus was that this section was for players who played in the NBA but were never drafted, but as I look at the past few Drafts it seems like this may have drifted over time (or maybe I have the intent wrong). The issue with leaving it open is that right now you could put eligible draftee with a Wikipedia article ("notable") in the space so where should th eline be drawn? What is the intent of these sections? Thanks.
Rikster2 (
talk)
17:47, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
All-Star Games
I was shocked to see how woeful the 1960s, 1970s, and early 1980s NBA All-Star Game article are. I started on a bit of cleanup and added infoboxes to several articles but have run out of time today. If some interested editor could at least add infoboxes to
1972 NBA All-Star Game through
1977 NBA All-Star Game that would at least mean every All-Star Game has one. -
Dravecky (
talk)
22:23, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
It was my understanding that players who get drafted don't get tagged with WP:NBA until they've played in a real game. I very well may be completely wrong in that assessment, and if I am please let me know.
Jrcla2 (
talk)
13:11, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
There's a discussion about that, two sections up. Please join it if you have a reason to prefer upper case.
Dicklyon (
talk)
17:12, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
NBA Draft pages being moved
User:Anthony Appleyard is moving every NBA Draft article, citing them as "uncontroversial" moves requested at
WP:RM. Did anyone from this WikiProject know about said requested moves? Furthermore, did anyone participate? I don't think moving them is uncontroversial, considering the formal name of each draft is "(Year) NBA Draft" with a capital D.
Jrcla2 (
talk)
20:10, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
Pretty sure nobody was consulted. Not sure if the lower case "d" is correct usage or not, though (its probably proper English, but it is possible that the D is always capitalized when media are referring to individual drafts).
Rikster2 (
talk)
20:16, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
After a little quick research, it seems like the NBA always capitalizes the D (check the headlines on Draft related stories along the right side
here). Seems like it was correct the way it was. This is the difference between proper English from an academic standpoint and popular usage. "NBA Draft" is somewhat akin to a brand name for them. IMO these should all be reverted to "XXXX NBA Draft."
Rikster2 (
talk)
23:37, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
I think an argument can be made for either title format. As Rikster notes, the NBA itself always capitalizes the D. I can accept the capitalization, in the sense that each draft is a specific event. However, many sports publications (eg, Sports Illustrated) do not capitalize the D, except in headlines.
In any case, it would have been nice to have a project discussion first. Now, things are inconsistent. (And, of course, this is the busiest day of the year for the NBA, so there are a zillion other things to do.)
Zagalejo^^^01:25, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
I did
some checking before moving and fixing case and requesting the technical moves; the articles were very inconsistent internally, and external sources favored lower case, so there seemed to be no issue, per
MOS:CAPS. Does someone have a reason to follow the specialist style of the NBA instead of WP style here?
Dicklyon (
talk)
01:28, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Well, as I said the NBA uses the capital D and you could argue that the do so because the yearly draft is a sub brand. There are many cases where MOS and specific general use differs.
Rikster2 (
talk)
02:05, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure what your point is. This is not a case where the recommendation of our MOS differs from general usage. Yes, it differs from some specialist usage; see
WP:SSF and
MOS:TM about that. Is there a reason we should not be following
MOS:CAPS here?
Dicklyon (
talk)
02:15, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Hey, WikiProject Birds gets to do what they want. :) But in a more practical sense, look at "What links here" for any of the NBA Draft pages. You'll see that the vast majority of links capitalize the D. I'm quite sure that overall usage on Wikipedia (including usage in hundreds of individual player articles) leans toward the capitalized format. Fixing every mention of "XXXX NBA Draft" would be a big task, with little real benefit, since most readers will accept things as they are now. I don't think either title format is obviously wrong, so I'd just stick with the status quo.
Zagalejo^^^01:53, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Well, yes, the links are mostly through the redirects due to widespread over-capitalization driven by the previously capitalized article titles. That problem will be gradually corrected. There's little benefit to making that a priority, as you note.
Dicklyon (
talk)
02:15, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Actually the NBA is mixed about caps themselves. See lowercase "NBA draft" at nba.com, at
[4],
[5],
[6],
[7],
[8], and "2013 NBA draft lottery" at
[9]. But even if they have trouble following their own style guide, we shouldn't have so much trouble following ours.
Dicklyon (
talk)
02:40, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Forgive me if I'm quick to snicker here, but this is becoming another instance of the infamous MOS stylists trying to right a ship that's been steady on course since Wikipedia's inception, with little to no real benefit, and only the likelihood that hundreds (thousand-plus, perhaps?) of articles will not actually be "gradually corrected." This could easily become the two-digit versus four-digit year formatting debate from a couple months ago (which I stopped paying attention to, because if there's one truth I've learned as an editor on this website, it's that MOS nearly always get their way.)
Jrcla2 (
talk)
03:25, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
It's not clear if you're afraid the articles will be made MOS compliant, or that they won't. As for "steady", no, the articles I've been working on had quite a mix of case, even within each article, like nobody who had read the MOS had ever gotten a chance to work on them; so why not now?
Dicklyon (
talk)
04:18, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
MOS is like the 80/20 rule. It's a great guide because it's right for most cases (ie - it is the 80). However, there are always that 20% of cases that deviate from a standard that can never be correct for all cases. I actually could live with either, and agree with Zag that there is evidence supporting both, but I do get pretty tired of MOS zealots trying to turn every issue into a nail that their hammer can "solve." It is obvious that no real research was done to determine what the right answer is here. But this is "Wiksturbation" at its finest so I am out. As an aside, Dick Lyon, you should go apply this logic to the NHL Drafts. You will probably get an even less polite response from that project.
Rikster2 (
talk)
12:28, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Oh come on. You are calling the hockey project rude but you two are taking pot shots at it. I personally don't have a strong opinon personally. Though they do label theirs differently than the NBA ones since they have Entry in the name. Not sure it makes that big a difference but it does make it more obvious a proper noun is being used rather than the generic word draft. That being said, if you guys don't see its all that big a deal why the freak out about it? -
DJSasso (
talk)
14:36, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
If nobody has any actual reasons to capitalize draft, I'll continue treating this as noncontroversial application of the MOS guidelines.
Dicklyon (
talk)
19:55, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Well, I agree with Jrcla2 that old links to the pages won't be "gradually corrected". I've been monitoring changes at basketball bios for several years now, so I think I have a good understanding of what gets done and what doesn't. If anything, casual editors will just revert any changes and re-capitalize things. It's hard enough to stop people from capitalizing phrases like "free agent" and "shooting guard".
Also, note that the MLB, NFL, and NHL draft pages also capitalize the D, so to be consistent, you'll have to move those, too. Before you do that, I would highly recommend you collect some opinions from a broader audience.
Zagalejo^^^04:06, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
I believe the proper MOS section for this is
MOS:NAMECAPS. The reason why the word "Draft" is capitalized is because it is a proper noun, for the same reason that the name "
Seven Wonders of the Ancient World" are in title caps. One could argue invoking
MOS:CT if arguing that "each draft is a
TV special" (a "[visual media] work"), just as every TV episode title is in title caps. Finally, one can invoke
MOS:TM although while the NBA does have some sort of a generic logo for the draft, and specific annual ones, it's not apparent that it is trademarked somewhere. –HTD19:38, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
I did a trademark search before I started, and found nothing there. And sources don't support interpretation as a proper name or composition title, as far as I can tell, so
WP:NAMECAPS and
MOS:CT do not seem to apply.
Dicklyon (
talk)
20:25, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
I wouldnt lose any sleep with upper vs lowercase in this instance. I would have stuck with status quo of uppercase, but I dont have the inclination to invest my time to revert them. With all due respect to the guidelines being cited, the one rather firm rule of Wikipedia—consensus—appears to be lacking here with only one editor supporting lowercase here to date.—
Bagumba (
talk)
22:27, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
As I noted above, "If nobody has any actual reasons to capitalize draft, I'll continue treating this as noncontroversial application of the MOS guidelines." There's no serious opposition here, and these moves have also got support from others. See
[10],
[11],
[12],
[13] as examples. Normally, routine MOS work is not considered controversial, but sometimes specialists who like to capitalize stuff in their domain object. I think that's where we are. We can open a bigger discussion if someone wants to, but as Jrcla2 notes above, the community usually supports styling per the MOS rather than by the specialists in their various domains. –
Dicklyon (
talk)
23:08, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Was that a too-charitable interpretation of "if there's one truth I've learned as an editor on this website, it's that MOS nearly always get their way"? –
Dicklyon (
talk)
01:22, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
You may be right. But isn't that a good thing, when people decide to stop fighting against the community consensus?
Dicklyon (
talk)
02:26, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
It's a good thing for the people who agree with your position. I don't think you should assume that the opposition suddenly "saw the light". People just lose the energy to fight for what they believe. (I've seen this happen in the notability fights, as well.) Look,
WT:MOS has 142 archives. Obviously, there's been a disagreement or two over the Manual of Style.
I don't want to make a big scene here. I'm not going to fight for the upper-case D. I'm just asking that you take a different perspective on things.
Zagalejo^^^03:14, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
I appreciate that. Nobody else is really fighting, either, but there are a couple who do hold the belief that "NBA Draft" is a proper name, on the slimmest of evidence. I was a relative latecomer to the MOS, but very happy to find that we had some central guidance on such things. That large number of archives (not much of it about caps) represents the broad participation and range of perspectives considered in arriving at a consensus style for WP. I just go by that.
Dicklyon (
talk)
03:31, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
A little late here, but the point I was making with that spun quote was that MOSers are pushy, stubborn, and generally unwilling to back down. I dare anyone to find any more of a battleground mentality (by both MOSers and non-MOSers alike) on all of Wikipedia than in MOS debates. The MOS supporters are, from my experiences, more
blindly faithful than the average editors. They'll force semantics on others in such a way that "[non-MOSers] need to prove why they're right as opposed to why we're wrong." But hey, I don't want to lose my enthusiasm for editing this online encyclopedia, and arguing MOS supporters will kill my buzz. Ergo, I'm stepping aside so that once again the MOS crew can sleep well at night.
Jrcla2 (
talk)
01:20, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
You make it sound like working to bring the encyclopedic closer to compliance with the style guidelines is a bad thing. I think most wikipedians are more supportive of the effort than that. And I certainly didn't mention right, or wrong, except where I said "You may be right." The only "battleground mentality" I've seen is with a few individuals that deny that the style guidelines apply to titles. I don't think that has entered the present discussion.
Dicklyon (
talk)
02:45, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
OK, noticing a discrepency with how current roster templates are being governed - should unsigned draft picks appear on current roster templates? They generally appear on the teams' official current roster (though not always), but I have seen some editors deleting the names when other editors add them (see
Template:Detroit Pistons current roster). So which is it? Is it who appears on the official roster (which seems to be the standard used for vets) or is it signed players?
Rikster2 (
talk)
14:04, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
Since the official rosters are updated in an inconsistent manner, it's hard to say. There is some merit to waiting until someone is signed, especially if it's a guy coming from overseas. To be honest, I haven't been paying close attention to those templates myself, because there just isn't enough time in the day to monitor things.
Zagalejo^^^01:53, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
I say leave them on the roster. Using the "note = DP" signifies them as being "unsigned draft pick" per the legend. It really doesn't matter that much though. If they appear on the official roster then, yes, I too would add them.
DaHuzyBru (
talk)
02:12, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
Technically you have to have sources to backup whatever you put on the roster. So I would go with whatever is listed on the teams official roster on their webpage. -
DJSasso (
talk)
17:18, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree. The issue is that some teams have a "current" 2013-14 roster on their site (which seemingly always includes drafted rookies) while others still show their 2012-13 rosters and don't change over til the roster is set after training camp (which sometimes includes players who have already left the team). It is a little tricky to just go with the rosters straight out without creating internal inconsistency.
Rikster2 (
talk)
18:34, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
Personally I prefer sourced over consistency. I have no problem if we are inconsistent for a couple months over summer it means we are upholding with our sourcing values. That being said its a shame the NBA teams aren't better at keeping the list updated. Most other sports are pretty good about it during the off season. But I suppose it all stems from the fact that there is technically no roster during the off-season if you get right down to it. -
DJSasso (
talk)
19:07, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
Caption consistency in draft articles
I feel we should establish a more consistent captioning for the pictures in the draft articles.
I was going to start to change them but I thought I'd ask for a group consensus first.
An example of the inconsistencies is the
2008 NBA draft article, it states under Derrick Rose's picture
Some draft articles captions don't state the team the player was drafted by but I personally prefer that.
Another question I'd like to raise is the numbering
Some captions state the first 10 picks with first, second, third....
while others say 1st, 2nd, 3rd......
Should the articles state
Just looking for some guidance here. At what point would it be fair to say that someone is a former player? Most players don't make a point of announcing their retirement. I'm most specifically thinking about
Allen Iverson and
Ben Wallace, but there are quite a few inactive players whose status is up in the air. Within the last year, Iverson and Wallace both indicated that they were still interested in playing, but nothing has materialized, and I haven't heard anything about them this offseason.
Zagalejo^^^00:17, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
This user has taken to adding unsourced uniform numbers and recently I've gone back and forth with him/her on applying Memphis team colors to
Josh Akognon who isn't on the team oster and from the look of things probably won't be after training camp. I am not that interested in following him around changing edits, but if someone else is interested knock yourself out.
Rikster2 (
talk)
00:02, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Please weigh in on proposal to migrate college players/coaches to Template:Infobox basketball biography
I've noticed that there are discrepancies between our draft articles and the draft lists at basketball-reference. For example, compare our
1956 NBA draft article and
their page. Does anyone know where the second round listing in the Wikipedia page comes from? I don't think that data is available in official NBA sources. The 2000 print NBA Encyclopedia says that records were incomplete for early drafts, and simply lists most of the players under the name of the teams that drafted them.
Zagalejo^^^04:04, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
The second round (and later) listing came from
thedraftreview.com website which already listed on the third general references section. It's the best I could find on the web about the later rounds of an incomplete early drafts. Feel free to remove these if you think thedraftreview is not a reliable source. —
MT (
talk)
02:14, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
On second glance, we do seem to skip some picks in the
1952 NBA draft article. The other discrepancies are probably due to the placement of territorial picks (though that's another issue in itself).
Zagalejo^^^02:29, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
Yes, there are a lot of discrepancies and thedraftreview does count the territorial picks. If I remember correctly (I edit these pages more than 4 years ago), I combined the data from basketball-reference, thedraftreview and APBR. At that time, I think it's best to combine more sources to achieve the most complete draft listing. However, right now I'm not sure whether it's the right thing to do. Also, I don't think thedraftreview qualifies as
reliable source. —
MT (
talk)
02:50, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
That was reverted (it was a cut and paste move), but I'm OK with moving the page now. The Spurs themselves have announced it
[14], and eventually NBA.com and other sports sites will be updating their pages.
Zagalejo^^^19:54, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
Well, I went ahead and moved it. If there are any objections, I'll move it back, but we'd have to move it eventually, anyway.
Zagalejo^^^06:07, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
"Basketball players from Chicago, Illinois" category - please help reach consensus
I am not sure where we draw the line on the following niceties for articles. I have a couple of non-roster/non-guaranteed contract invitees that are starting camp. However, I have left the feature for players with guaranteed contracts. Most teams have about 13 or 14 guaranteed contracts and have about 18 people in camp for 15 roster spots. I have been removing the team name for non-roster invitees to camp. When are we suppose to do the following for each player.
Typically, I would do 1, 2, and 4 once the team has made any official announcement that they have signed the player. If the player doesn't make the final roster, we can modify things later. We generally don't add the category at all until the player has played in a regular season game for that team.
Zagalejo^^^07:29, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
Sign is a loose term. Almost every NBA team has 18 people signed to be in training camp. However, only 13 or 14 of those have guaranteed contracts. E.g., both
Manny Harris and
DeShawn Sims appear to be fighting 4-way battles for the only non-guaranteed spot on the roster. Should they both have the team added to the infobox and the name added to the roster template?--
TonyTheTiger (
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WP:CHICAGO /
WP:WAWARD)
08:14, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
That's the way we've done it in the past. If the team itself lists them among their players, then let's consider them members of that team, at least for the time being.
Zagalejo^^^08:23, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
I don't think I want to run around updating all the roster templates for the 18-man training camp rosters. I think we will find a lot of redlinked guys who end up being 16 through 18. I think I have about 8 guys in camps and unless they are returning or were drafted this year they will not have team roster templates by me. I'll wait until we get down to 15. If I get involved in the 18-man rosters, I will feel compelled to create articles. I have only looked closely at one 18-man roster and already see an article that I feel I might want to take responsibility for, but not unless he makes the 15-man roster.--
TonyTheTiger (
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06:47, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Francisco García's birthdate
I've realized that different sources say different things for
Francisco García's date of birth. NBA.com, ESPN, and some others say 1980, but Louisville, Yahoo, and some others say 1981. Any thoughts?
Zagalejo^^^08:56, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
Detail deletion
I consider myself to be the primary editor of at least 12 players who are in NBA training camps right now. Only 3 of those are projected to be starters on opening day if their teams are healthy. It is likely that half of these 12 will be spending time in the NBA D-league if they even make the rosters. Thus, callups and assignments are a type of detail I have and expect to expend energy on. Likewise this preseason, I have spent energy finding details about the activities of the players that I do. Since I have a lot of NBA players to keep track of plus a dozen or so high school and college players and a handful of expats, I welcome the assistance of other editors in keeping the pages current. However, I am noticing a consistent pattern of detail removal by
DaHuzyBru and
Zagalejo. I am wondering if this is desired. Edits like
these and
this remove a lot of sourced content in favor of a very basic statement. Is that what we want?--
TonyTheTiger (
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08:03, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Tony - I think what this comes down to is that editing (especially deciding what to include vs. not in prose) is a judgement call at the end of the day. When I look at the specific edits you linked, I can see why some information was removed in each. For example, in the Darius Morris example, here is what Zagalejo removed (minus refs): "On September 12, 2013, Morris was said to be finalizing a deal to play for the
Philadelphia 76ers. As the September 28 training camp date approached, Morris was expected to battle with
Tony Wroten for the backup point guard position behind
Michael Carter-Williams." He changed this to: "On September 27, 2013, Morris was named to the
Philadelphia 76ers' training camp roster." In that case, once a person has signed (or not), there really isn't need to keep the speculation that he might sign. And what if he hadn't signed with the Sixers? Then you'd have a short paragraph speculating about something that really is irrelevant - players go through many forms of contract exploration in their careers and it isn't all notable. I do think there is such a thing as too much detail - in my opinion this makes it difficult for readers to get the really important stuff - who is this person, where did he play, was he involved in any interesting situations his public life, etc. I do think you should reframe the way that you view articles that you have created, though. You aren't the "primary editor" for them, you are a guy who created the articles. Once created, you have essentially released them to the wild - they aren't owned by anyone. I watch the pages of articles I create mainly so I can catch vandalism or errors, but I have no pretense that the articles are mine or that I have any undue authority over what goes in or not once it's in the mainspace. Just my two cents.
Rikster2 (
talk)
13:10, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
I understand the "releasing it to the wild concept". However, is "Morris was expected to battle with
Tony Wroten for the backup point guard position behind
Michael Carter-Williams" really irrelevant? I was about to add something about how
Manny Harris will likely need to beat either
E'Twaun Moore or
Doron Lamb out to make the team, but if the Wroten/Morris stuff is irrelevant so is the information about Harris. I don't understand why this type of content is irrelevant.--
TonyTheTiger (
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14:29, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
I can see your point - why don't you just re-add that statement and the ref that goes with it? Again, it's a judgment call. Knowing DaHuzyBru's and Zagalejo's edit histories I seriously doubt there was any malice intended.
Rikster2 (
talk)
14:50, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
I think it would be easier to wait until the preseason ends before going into such detail about these players. The phrase you mention above ("Morris was expected to battle with
Tony Wroten for the backup point guard position behind
Michael Carter-Williams") will have to be rewritten at some point. Either he does battle for a position against those players, or he doesn't. 23:43, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Well, there's always a chance that someone ends up playing a different position. The sentence as written merely documents an expectation.
Zagalejo^^^03:09, 2 October 2013 (UTC)