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I fail to see why this city is vital at this level compared to Saint Helena.
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Pretty important concept in late Soviet history.
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There are currently 5 articles listed on
Svalbard:
Svalbard
4,
Longyearbyen
5,
Spitsbergen
5,
Bear Island (Svalbard), and
Nordaustlandet. I contend that that's three too many. The main island and the archipelago is enough IMO. (I was originally going to propose to remove Spitsbergen rather than Longyearbyen, as the latter has almost all of the archipelago's 3,000 population, but decided this was the better way to go.)
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It’s up there compared to
Metropolis
5.
Interstellarity (
talk)
10:46, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
I wonder if those topics shouldn't be merged. Can anyone explain to me the difference? Otherwise I'll likely oppose having two conceptually identical entries here. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:51, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
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Per rationale for St. Pierre above
p
b
p
00:45, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
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Alice Springs is not vital when we want less cities in Oceania, not more. The Northern Territory only has a quarter million people, so it should only have Darwin. OhnoitsvileplumeXD ( talk) 14:54, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
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Depending on whether the proposal above passes or fails, these might be good additions since they are over 100,000 people in population. If the proposal above fails, then I would support these two, but if it passes, I would oppose the proposal. I'm nominating this since I feel it is worth discussing. Interstellarity ( talk) 00:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
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Moncton is currently the largest city in New Brunswick. It also allows us to have more linguistic diversity, but I’m not sure if that makes it any more vital. New Brunswick only really needs one city with its population of only 800k, and I’m not sure if it should be Fredericton or Moncton, but we’ll keep it with two for now. OhnoitsvileplumeXD ( talk) 14:35, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
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The Urals seem underrepresented with only three cities, and this city has a unique status of being one of few planned socialist realist settlements. OhnoitsvileplumeXD ( talk) 01:10, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
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The systematic killing of 300,000–900,000 Christian Ottoman Greeks during World War I and its aftermath. Perhaps the deadliest mass casualty event of the modern era with an unambiguous label that's currently not listed. I should note that the Population exchange between Greece and Turkey of 1923 is Lv5, but I'd argue this is independently notable regardless.
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This city seems like one of the weakest on the list and the weakest in the Russian Far East. Only vital for its location as the easternmost Russian settlement with town status. Not very historically important either, as it peaked at 17k. OhnoitsvileplumeXD ( talk) 12:46, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
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Doesn’t compare in vitality to the cities we already list for New York. In fact, I would only support listing a city under 10,000 if there are special circumstances surrounding their vitality. This one doesn’t make the cut. Interstellarity ( talk) 21:58, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
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Since Lucerne was mentioned a couple of times, I'd argue it makes sense to swap Winterthur for it. Winterthur is described in the article simply as a satellite city of Zurich, and its population of 110k is well below the 200k or so that seems to be a common threshold for cities here. The population of Lucerne proper is "technically" 82k, but the urban area totals around 220k, whereas Winterthur is simply part of another city's urban area. In terms of other forms of importance, Winterthur does appear to have a certain amount f relevance to the economy and technology, but then, so does Zurich. Lucerne on the other hand is the main hub for central Switzerland.
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This was global and seems to be of similar import to
Panic of 1819
5,
Panic of 1873
5,
Panic of 1893
5,
Panic of 1907
5,
Wall Street Crash of 1929
4
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At 01:13, 14 March 2020 (UTC), User:TimothyBlue posted this discussion. It achieved consensus with a 3–1 vote, but was archived without being enacted. Original discussants were the nominator as well as User:Purplebackpack89, User:Rreagan007 and User:Feminist.
@ TonyTheTiger: I imagine you support? J 947 ‡ edits 22:40, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
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Viti Levu
5, Fiji's main island, is an odd omission – no less because the much less important
Vanua Levu
5 is already listed.
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Per this discussion (@ The Blue Rider:).
There are twenty-two Civil War battles. For a war that lasted four years and was almost exclusively fought in a single country, that’s too many. There are only eight battles of the World War One Western front, which had a lot more parties involved and claimed 3x as many lives. A dozen seems more right-sized p b p 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
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Definitely not among the 10 most strategically significant Civil War battles.
p
b
p
17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
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Aside of the significance to the career of
Ulysses S. Grant, it’s not that significant a battle.
p
b
p
17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
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The Union campaigns to take New Orleans and the Mississippi River might be significant but this particular battle is not. Only 7 interwikis and fewer than 1,000 casualties.
p
b
p
17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
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A ways down the list of significant Civil War battles, definitely out of the Top 10
p
b
p
17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
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Definitely not among the 10 most strategically significant. Its significance to war crimes is covered by
Nathan Bedford Forrest
p
b
p
17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
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Definitely not among the 10 most strategically significant Civil War battles.
p
b
p
17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
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The Battle of Atlanta was a relatively small engagement in two much larger campaigns. The South literally has complained about Sherman’s March to the Sea for the past 160 years.
p
b
p
17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
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Two battles, albeit two bloodbaths, from the same campaign. Grant fought Lee to a draw at Spotsylvania, marched down the road a piece, then fought him at Cold Harbor.
p
b
p
17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
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Molepolole (population c. 70,000) I think is included for historical reasons, as it seems to be a pre-colonial African village that was a clan capital before later expanding into a larger modern town. I guess that is interesting and suggests regional importance, but it doesn't really carry it much further beyond that. Aside from that, its the third entry listed from
Botswana, a country that doesn't even have a population of 3 million people.
Soweto on the other hand is the largest South African township, and essentially served as the "face" of apartheid to much of the world, and remains internationally famous to this day, and played host to many important events of 20th century South African history.
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The predecessor of
Taiwan
3 ruled by the
Kuomintang
5, was a major polity with many important events for the history of China happening during its existance. These events include:
1911 Revolution
4,
Northern Expedition (should be added to VT5),
Chinese Civil War
4,
Second Sino-Japanese War
4,
Long March
5,
Nanjing Massacre
4,
Shanghai Massacre (also should be added),
Warlord Era
5,
First United Front,
Second United Front,
First Taiwan Strait Crisis. Was also ruled by very important leaders such as,
Sun Yat-sen
4,
Chiang Kai-shek
4 and
Yuan Shikai
5. The
Blue Rider
19:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
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A major factor which affects urban planning globally.
Victoria seems extremely under quota with its population of nearly 7 million, with only Melbourne at this level. Additionally, Geelong is one of the few cities to have its own WikiProject, and I think topics with their own WikiProject should be at least Level 4-5. This is part of the reason Donald Trump was added to V4. OhnoitsvileplumeXD ( talk) 15:24, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
Mixed opinions on this one. There is probably space for another one or two Australian cities, but Townsville is significantly more important than Geelong. I'm aware its addition would exacerbate the overrepresentation of Queensland and underrepresentation of Victoria – tricky. J 947 ‡ edits 22:50, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
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Subtopic of
Brexit
5. We can add
Impact of Brexit in maybe 5-10 years once the dust settles down and it becomes a scholarly subject.
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I don't think we need to list three cities from the
Dallas–Fort Worth metroplex
5, especially when we already list the metro area itself.
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It's distinct enough from
Las Vegas
4, and world-famous.
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A major part of economic history worldwide.
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A major and bloody period during the history of Southern Africa that occured in parallel to colonialism in the Cape. In terms of long-term significance, "The Mfecane is significant in that it saw the formation of new states, institutions, and ethnic identities in southeastern Africa".
Second-largest city in a country that ranks around 75th in area and population. OhnoitsvileplumeXD ( talk) 16:06, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
200,000 feels small when we've been removing 500,000–population African cities recently (wrongly). See here. Listing regions of Guinea is probably preferable ( Nzérékoré Region, Guinée forestière). J 947 ‡ edits 22:55, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
Guadeloupe, a French overseas department of 400k, does not need two cities, no matter how large. The capital isn't insignificant, it has an urban area larger than some U.S. state capitals.
I still think Caribbean territiories are underrepresented. After I got Willemstad on the list, the only 100k+ territories in the region that were unrepresented were Aruba and the USVI. Oranjestad is the larger settlement, so I chose it over Charlotte Amalie. OhnoitsvileplumeXD ( talk) 14:40, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
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Metro LA does not need four cities, and Orange County does not need two cities. Between the two Orange County cities on the list, Anaheim is larger than Santa Ana and is known for Disneyland.
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Covered by Maine, Massachusetts and History of Massachusetts
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Proposing a swap here between two California cities. Berkeley, California is one of the rare smaller cities on this list that achieves a level of global recognition. It is well-known in physics for being the home of the
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and with it,
J. Robert Oppenheimer
4,
Saul Perlmutter
5,
Jennifer Doudna
5,
Ernest Lawrence
4 etc. It was also where the Manhattan Project was conceived. At least two elements were discovered there:
Californium and
Berkelium, the latter of which makes Berkeley one of the only cities in the world whose name is used for an element. It also extremely well-known in computer science and lends its name to the
Berkeley Software Distribution which was the basis for Mac's Unix,
Berkeley sockets, and the pioneering
Berkeley Timesharing System.
Many of these contributions are related in some way to
University of California, Berkeley
4 which is already VA4 but Berkeley is nationally and globally known in other ways as well. It was the center of the
Free Speech Movement
5 with
Mario Savio
5. It was also a focal point of almost every counterculture movement in the 1960s, including the
hippie movement and the construction of
People's Park in 1969 achieved international attention. Many important writers from that era called Berkeley home for some number of years such as
Hunter S. Thompson
4.
Berkeley has more interwikis than Riverside (85 v. 77) and more daily pageviews (926 v. 839). The only thing Riverside has on Berkeley is that it is three times the population. But I can tell you as someone who lives in California that I don't know anything special about Riverside besides the fact there is a university there and Berkeley has even that beat with a more notable university in the same system. I also know for a fact that Berkeley has name recognition outside the United States, particularly in STEM communities thanks to the scientific contributions listed above. I highly doubt most people outside California know Riverside, let alone someone who lives in another country.
As a sidenote: we should consider adding Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory to VA5 regardless of if this passes or not (home to 15 Nobel laureates, connection to Manhattan Project, discovery of multiple elements, major advances in astronomy etc.). According to its wiki article, Berkeley Lab has the greatest research publication impact of any single government laboratory in the world in physical sciences and chemistry, as measured by Nature Index. Using the same metric, the Lab is the second-ranking laboratory in the area of earth and environmental sciences. Any thoughts on what section this should be added to?
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As I am looking into this section, some stuff that I'd like to add. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
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We list a lot of history European regions. Many under individual countries. This seems like a major omission. Perhaps because it has a shared history between several countries, or perhaps because Poland's section is a mess compared to others (all entries in it need to be moved to history by period, see comments in the sectionb below). Anyway, this is one of the three Central/Eastern European major regions that is missing, and IMHO should be added, since we list dozens of similar regions around the world. Note: if added, this should not be under Poland, but general for Europe, since this and the other two regions I propose below have history and borders split between various countries. Also, note that the three regions ( Silesia, Galicia (Eastern Europe) and Pomerania, currently listed under Poland, should be moved to the geography section. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
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See above - identical rationale to Silesia. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
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See above - identical rationale to Silesia. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
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Major incident related to the beginning of WWII. 47 interwikis. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
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Even more significant incident related to the above. 84 interwikis. We list many historical events much less significant than this, IMHO. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
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Seems like a major WWII topic that is missing from our list here. Yes, just 29 interwikis, but pretty significant, both historically and curturally. --
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here
12:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
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Major topic, parent to The Holocaust, 36 interwikis. Considering that The Holocaust (6m deaths) gets 13 articles at V5 (including the
Romani Holocaust with ~150k deaths), I think we also should consider adding
World War II casualties of the Soviet Union (~25m) and
World War II casualties of Poland (also at 6m). China should be here too but I don't think we have a dedicated article to that. --
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here
12:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
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See my comment above. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
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See my comment above. --
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here
12:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
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We list a dozen or so articles related to The Holocaust, all quite depressing. It is human nature to focus on the negatives, I guess. This would be a good counterbalance, and arguably, as important subtopic of this as many of the other articles we list. --
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here
13:13, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
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I previously proposed this for Level 4, where it was suggested I re-propose it here, given "Human rights abuses of the Marcos dictatorship" might be too specific.
This is an article that should more properly be named the " Marcos dictatorship" (which is a redirect) but is not named that due to media coverage consensus issues and sensitivities. However, it is a significant period in Philippine history on par with the Philippine Revolution, or at least the Japanese Occupation of the Philippines during World War II. I am new to Vital Articles but by my estimate, that feels like a level 5. -- Chieharumachi ( talk) 16:39, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
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Special city, ice-free port, and important for business between China, Russia, and North Korea. It's also close to the China–NK–Russia border.
toobigtokale (
talk)
11:17, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
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Very low population (7.4k) with a relatively short history, having only been designated capital of its territory in 1999. Consider that we removed Fairbanks, another Arctic city with a much larger (95k metro) population.
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In the
#Add Berkeley, California, remove Riverside, California discussion I cast doubt on the removal of Riverside, because I think the 12th-most-populated metro area in the US should have representation. However, I agree with
Aurangzebra (OP of the Berkeley discussion) that I highly doubt most people outside California know Riverside, let alone someone who lives in another country.
The article on
Inland Empire better represents the entire region than an article on one of its cities.
Pinging @ Interstellarity, Purplebackpack89, and J947: as other editors who mentioned the issue of Inland Empire representation in the Berkeley discussion. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 ( talk) 03:51, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
These islands don't have much significance compared to the rest of the islands. I think listing Kauai, Oahu, Maui, and Hawaii (island) is sufficient to cover the islands. Interstellarity ( talk) 18:45, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
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Axis powers are listed on Level 5, but not the Allied. A major omission. -- Makkool ( talk) 09:23, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Actually, we do have it, you can use
template:VA link to check:
Allies of World War II
5--
LaukkuTheGreit (
Talk•
Contribs)
09:45, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
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One the the deadliest plagues or epidemics in all human history, between 15 million and possibly over 100 million deaths attributed to it. Huge impact on the history, direction and life in the Byzantine Empire, and most of Europe, Mediterranean and Middle East. Contemplated suggesting at level 4 a while back, but never did, although it had passing mention in discussions there.
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Asian Americans isn’t even V5, so it doesn’t make sense to be listing any of these articles at this level. Our section on the history of U.S. demographic groups should also be merged with the section on the history of ethnic groups. Vileplume ( talk) 18:38, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
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Ireland (pop. 7.2M including
Northern Ireland) is overrepresented in
the Countries section, with 41 articles currently listed at Level 5 or above.
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The Urals seem underrepresented with only three cities, and this is by far the largest city in the autonomous okrugs. Speaking of autonomous okrugs, I’d also support a swap between Anadyr and Magadan, as we already have enough coverage of Chukotka at this level and Magadan has 6-7 times the population of Anadyr. OhnoitsvileplumeXD ( talk) 21:22, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Surgut's economy is tied to oil production (the city is known as "The Oil Capital of Russia") and natural gas processing.feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 ( talk) 03:40, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
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Considering we don’t list summer vacation destinations like Block Island, I don’t think it makes sense to keep this one. Interstellarity ( talk) 22:01, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
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Missouri most certainly deserves a third city, and Springfield is its third largest in terms of city proper and metro area, and by urban area when excluding Fayetteville, AR. OhnoitsvileplumeXD ( talk) 12:09, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
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The Spiegel affair seems like a very strange pick here, its long-term historical significance seems to be limited to demonstrating that the Christian Democrats were not going to be able to restrict press freedom in the post-war BRD to a significant degree, which I suppose is noteworthy to an extent, but it doesn't really seem impactful as it was more of a demonstration that what they attempted to do could not be done under the state's legal framework (for example, it didn't even lead to them losing power). The Red Army Faction was one of the most well-known left-wing militant groups to appear during the post-war period, and continues to loom large in culture and in the German popular imagination (note the extensive "pop culture" section). Their rise is very much tied-up with the counterculture and global upheavals of the late 1960s, and specifically to Germany, to feelings of collective responsibility for the Nazis and anger at the generation who had allowed their crimes to take place.
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Their core cities cover them well. I'd rather list first-level subdivisions from the DRC, Kenya, Tanzania, Algeria, Sudan, etc. Vileplume ( talk) 22:42, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
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Since we have removed several U.S. state histories, I do not think that Canadian province histories are above consideration.
Prince Edward Island
5 is only VA5, and its history was not that important. Also, it only has three interwikis, if you care about that.
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Palau only warrants one city at this level with its population of under 20k. In this case, it’s not the current capital without any permanent population in its boundaries, but the former capital and current largest city,
Koror (city)
5.
Bern
5 and
Naypyidaw
5 aren’t even V4, and we recently demoted
Canberra
5 and
Wellington
5 to V5.
OhnoitsvileplumeXD (
talk)
20:05, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
North Korea of course is a very isolationist state so most of its cities outside of Pyongyang are not well-known internationally. That said I don't think it should be discounted and 4 cities in a country of ~26 million is definitely underrepresentation, especially given that the urbanization rate isn't that low. Totalibe ( talk) 19:57, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
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If only one city is added, I would say this is the one. While it isn't the largest city proposed here by population, it has a special political and economic significance due to the fact that during the initial
partition of Korea, it was south of the border, but by the time the
Korean War had finished and after shifting in control several times, it was north of the DMZ. Today, it is home to the
Kaesong Industrial Region which is a special joint region for collaborative economic activity with the South formed in the early 2000s, which makes it a very geopolitically important place.
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An important port and naval base that was important both historically and at present. The port was opened to foreign trade by Japanese forces in 1880, which is early on in the history of Japanese dominance and later direct colonial rule of Korea, and was under blockade for most of the Korean War. The article further details increased development that has been ongoing in recent times.
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A major settlement directly on the Chinese border, which is a major centre for trade and transit between the two countries. You could argue it plays a similar role to Kaesong in that it is a hub for economic activity with its neighbour, although plans to introduce a special economic area like the one in Kaesong fell through. Totalibe ( talk) 19:57, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
There are quite a few rather insignificant topics here, and at least a couple that are missing. p b p 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
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One of the more significant demographic trends. Balanced out by several removals below
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17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
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This is one of the rare times the battle, specifically the
Battle of the Little Bighorn
5 (“Custer’s Last Stand”), is more significant or well-known than the war. The GSW has 16 interwikis and BLB has 47. On both sides combined, resulted in fewer than 1,000 killed
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17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
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A better approach would be broader topics. I would note we do NOT have the lynching of Emmett Till, nor the assassination of Medgar Evars
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17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
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We don’t need both the ship AND the disaster p b p 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
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Charles Lindbergh is significant coverage of this topic. History of transatlantic aviation is a better VA5 than a single plane. Also, if we don’t have the Wright Flyer, we probably shouldn’t have the Spirit of St. Louis either
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17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
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TRIVIA. If the U.S. had actually bought Cuba, or if the Spanish-American War had occurred in the 1850s instead of the 1890s, we might have something here. Since we didn’t, I don’t think VA5 is appropriate. 15 interwikis, which isn’t that much for a VA5
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17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
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Ancillary to American System (economic plan). Only has ONE interwiki link p b p 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)