Formal review processes |
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For RfCs, community discussions, and to review closes of other reviews: |
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In bot-related matters: |
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Discussion about closes prior to closing: |
Move review is a process to formally discuss and evaluate a contested close of Wikipedia page move discussions, including requested moves (RM), categories for discussion discussions (CfD), and redirects for discussion discussions (RfD), to determine if the close was reasonable, or whether it was inconsistent with the spirit and intent of Wikipedia common practice, policies, or guidelines.
Prior to submitting a review of a page move's close, please attempt to resolve any issues on the closer's talk page. See step one below.
While the page move close is under review, any involved editor is free to revert any undiscussed moves of a nominated page without those actions being considered a violation of Wikipedia:No wheel warring.
This review process should be focused on the move discussion and the subsequent results of the move discussion, not on the person who closed the discussion. If you have ongoing concerns about a closer, please consult with the closer or post at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. Move review requests which cast aspersions or otherwise attack other editors may be speedily closed.
Do not request a move review if someone has boldly moved a page and you disagree. Instead, attempt to discuss it with the editor, and if the matter continues to be unresolved, start a formal WP:RM discussion on the article's talk page.
Do not request a move review simply because you disagree with the outcome of a page move discussion. While the comments in the move discussion may be discussed in order to assess the rough consensus of a close, this is not a forum to re-argue a closed discussion.
Disagreements with Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions (WP:RMCI), WP:Article titles, the Manual of Style, a naming convention or the community norm of consensus should be raised at the appropriate corresponding talk page.
CfDs [1] and RfDs can only be reviewed here if the relevant discussion was limited in scope to renaming; CfDs or RfDs [2] involving deletion should be reviewed at Wikipedia:Deletion review.
Editors desiring to initiate a move review should follow the steps listed below. In the reason parameter, editors should limit their requests to one or both of the following reasons:
Editors initiating a move review discussion should be familiar with the closing instructions provided in WP:RMCI.
1. |
Before requesting a move review: please attempt to discuss the matter with the closer of the page move discussion on the closer's talk page. Move review is a process that takes several days, sometimes weeks, to close. On the closer's talk page, you can probably resolve the matter much more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full, formal move review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision. If things don't work out, and you decide to request a review of the closure, please note in the review that you did first try discussing the matter with the closer. To clarify: You absolutely MUST attempt to discuss the matter with the closer FIRST, and give them a few days to respond. |
2. |
Follow this link to this month's log and paste the template skeleton at the top of the discussions (but not at the top of the page). Then fill in page with the name of the contested move page, rm_page with the name of the move discussion page if needed, rm_section if needed, closer and closer_section with the post-move discussion information, and reason with the reason why the page move should be reviewed. For example: Copy this template skeleton for most pages: {{subst:move review list |page= |rm_page= <!--Not needed if the move discussion is on the talk page of the page--> |rm_section= <!--Name of the section with the move request--> |closer= <!--User name of editor who closed the move request--> |closer_section= <!--Name of the section of closer's talk page where discussion took place--> |reason= }} ~~~~ If either the
are correctly filled in, the result will include a "Discussion with closer" link to that discussion. If the |
3. |
If you have not done so already, inform the closer of the Move review discussion by adding the following on their user talk page:
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4. |
Leave notice of the move review in the same section as, but outside of and above the closed original move discussion. Use the following template: |
5. |
If the current month discussions are not already included in the discussion section below. Add the new log page to the top of the active discussions section.
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6. |
The discussion with closer and notices required above are sufficient notification; you are not required to individually notify participants in the prior move discussion of the move review. However, if you individually notify any of them, you must individually notify all of them by posting a message about the move review on each participant's respective user talk page. |
In general, commenters should prefix their comments with either Endorse or Overturn (optionally stating an alternative close) followed by their reasoning. Generally, the rationale should be an analysis of whether the closer properly followed Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions, whether it was within closer's discretion and reasonably interpreted consensus in the discussion, while keeping in mind the spirit of Wikipedia policy, precedent and project goal. Commenters should be familiar with WP:RMCI, which sets forth community norms for closers of page move discussions.
If the close is considered premature because of on-going discussion or if significant relevant information was not considered during the discussion, commenters should suggest Relist followed by their rationale.
Commenters should identify whether or not they were involved or uninvolved in the RM discussion under review.
The closer of the page move under discussion should feel free to provide additional rationale as to why they closed the RM in the manner they did and why they believe the close followed the spirit and intent of WP:RMCI.
Remember that move review is not an opportunity to rehash, expand upon or first offer your opinion on the proper title of the page in question – move review is not a do-over of the WP:RM discussion but is an opportunity to correct errors in the closing process (in the absence of significant new information). Thus, the action specified should be the editor's analysis of whether the close of the discussion was reasonable or unreasonable based on the debate and applicable policy and guidelines. Providing evidence such as page views, ghits, ngrams, challenging sourcing and naming conventions, etc. to defend a specific title choice is not within the purview of a move review. Evidence should be limited to demonstrating that the RM closer did or did not follow the spirit and intent of WP:RMCI in closing the page move discussion.
A nominated page should remain on move review for at least seven days. After seven days, an uninvolved editor will determine whether a consensus exists to either endorse the close or overturn the close. If that consensus is to Overturn Close, the MRV closer should take the appropriate actions to revert any title changes resulting from the RM close. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at Wikipedia:Requested moves, Wikipedia:Categories for discussion, or Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion. If the consensus is to Endorse Close, no further action is required on the article title. If the MRV closer finds that there is no consensus in the move review, then in most cases this has the same effect as Endorse Close and no action is required on the article title. However, in some cases, it may be more appropriate to treat a finding of "no consensus" as equivalent to a "relist"; MRV closers may use their discretion to determine which outcome is more appropriate.
Use {{ subst:move review top}} and {{ subst:move review bottom}} to close such discussions.
Also, add a result to the {{
move review talk}}
template on the talk page where the original discussion took place, e.g. {{move review talk|date=April 24 2015|result=Closure endorsed}}
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The following set of options represent the typical results of a move review decision, although complex page move discussions involving multiple title changes may require a combination of these options based on the specific details of the RM and MRV discussions.
MRV closer's decision | RM closer's decision | Move review closed as | Status of RM after MRV close |
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1. Endorse | Moved / Not moved | No action required | Closed |
2. Overturn | Not moved | Option 1: (If RM consensus is unclear or significantly divided) Reopen and relist RM | Open |
Option 2: (If consensus to move to a new title is clear) Move title to new title and close RM | Closed | ||
Moved | Move title back to pre-RM title, and reopen and relist RM if appropriate | Open | |
3. Relist | Moved / Not moved | Reopen and relist RM and if moved, move title back to pre-RM title | Open |
Click to create a log page for next month (2024 August)
The closer moved the Chairperson to Chair (officer) after an RM discussion to move the page to Chairman. There were 9 !votes supporting Chairman as a first option, and 1 as a second option, while 8 !votes supported a move to Chair (officer) as a first option and 1 as a second option. The consensus is 9-8 in favour of "chairman". PadFoot ( talk) 12:26, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
the term 'Chair' emerged lateI would respectfully suggest that you review the first comment made in the discussion. BD2412 T 13:39, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
Chair (officer)occurred about 4 hours after the RfC's listing, showing the option was a part of the RfC discussion from nearly the beginning, with two additional supports of it happening in the first six hours of discussion and additional comments in support continued to be added until the close. Editors supporting
Chair (officer)were more numerous and their comments had stronger ties to Wikipedia policy, as they were additionally supported by WP's Manual of Style, other English language style guides, and scholarly reliable sources. -- Pinchme123 ( talk) 19:17, 28 June 2024 (UTC) (to clarify, my comment is best understood as in line with WP:NOTCURRENTTITLE -- Pinchme123 ( talk) 19:28, 28 June 2024 (UTC))
In the discussion it was shown that "PhD" is more common than the full "Doctor of Philosophy", which is very rarely used. "PhD" was shown to be more than 60 times more common in google ngrams and more than twice as common in google scholar, with the caveat that most of the results for the full name were actual PhD dissertations, so the actual results are probably higher in favour of the abbreviation. WP:COMMONNAME and MOS:ACROTITLE were the main arguments supporting the move. The opposing arguments were quite weak and easily refuted:
Discounting the arguments that ignore policies and guidelines results in a clear consensus to move the article . Vpab15 ( talk) 16:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
... 18k results since 2010 ..., compared to less than 17k for "Ph.D." ... and less than 8k for "Doctor of Philosophy". You can't cite WP:COMMONNAME anymore. Weak argument, strong opposition, burden to move not met.— Alalch E. 22:34, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
I participated in this move request which was regarding a musician's name change some 30 years ago, essentially attempting to get Wikipedia to align with all reliable independent sources. Although a consensus was reached and the RM closed on that basis, the discussion did not touch upon the WP:CHANGEDNAME guidelines at all which are highly pertinent in this case, so it is my view that the RM was closed prematurely and an incorrect conclusion reached.
A further attempt to engage in discussion focusing purely on Wikipedia article naming guidelines was shut down. It is proving very challenging to improve the quality of Wikipedia in good faith when faced with editors who refuse to thoroughly discuss the topic at hand in relation to Wikipedia guidance around name changes, or worse still decide to impose their own standards which do not necessarily align to Wikipedia's guidance. There are several examples of untruths peppered through the brief discussion, the editors involved are a little under-informed both on the Wikipedia guidance on this topic and also the fact that all reliable independent sources available refer routinely to the artist under his newer name.
As I pointed out in a subsequent RM a few weeks later, according to WP:CHANGEDNAME we must give extra weight to reliable sources which routinely use the subjects newer name (post name-change). It is my observation that ALL reliable sources available adhere to that requirement, and I have provided many examples of this. Therefore, Wikipedia editors have unfortunately failed to reach a correct conclusion in this instance and it merits further discussion specifically around naming guidelines such as WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CHANGEDNAME.
Of course, despite best efforts sometimes rapid consensus and groupthink can at times produce erroneous results which are not well-aligned with Wikipedia guidelines; the question is how we should repond to such failures to adhere to our own standards. It seems a great shame to shut down further discussion on this, I would propose a rethink. The page should be renamed, it is anachronistic in the extreme that we have refused to engage properly with this issue. MzK11 ( talk) 09:46, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
The recent request move was to change the article title from 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel → 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel, not to 7 October attacks. The article has been unilaterally moved to a different title all together. There has been other notable attacks on the date 7 October in the region such as the 2000 Hezbollah cross-border raid and the 2004 Sinai bombings, both of which occurred on the 7 October. That's why I supported a move to the title 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel as it was specific about which attack on the 7 October, and to differentiate it from other attacks in the region on the same date. This controversial move lacked consensus in the RM discussion. Another user ( User:Makeandtoss) has also stated "I agree, this should be taken to move review, as in addition to lacking widespread consensus, this was closed by a non-admin, in contravention of WP:BADNAC. Most worryingly, the closer is involved in the topic area [1].... The close very clearly violates 3 out of 4 points outlined in WP:BADNAC: 1- involved editor 2- controversial move 3- little WP experience at 6,000 edits.". The mover stated "there was clear consensus to move away from the current title as the date was found to be an important part of the WP:COMMONNAME" but they have not proved that this shorter title is the common name in contrast with the more prevalently used longer version of the title. IJA ( talk) 15:32, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
Especially when "Hamas-led attack on Israel" remains in the title). Toadspike [Talk] 14:54, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
This move request was closed as "no consensus" where the lack of consensus is based on a faulty reading of WP:UE.
According to BilledMammal who closed as no consensus:
"Reviewing it again, I stand by my previous close. Editors in opposition argued that even sources that do use the Welsh name commonly translate it into English, and I found no basis in policy to give those !votes less weight. "
This statement is incorrect as roughly half of the reliable sources used "Cymdeithas yr Iaith" without providing any translation and none used "Welsh Language Society" except as a translation the first time "Cymdeithas yr Iaith" was presented.
WP:UE does not apply here as the WP:COMMONNAME used in reliable English language sources (and in most pages that link to this one) is Cymdeithas yr Iaith. Morwennol ( talk) 10:48, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
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The following is an archived debate of the move review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
The page was moved prematurely when there was no consensus from the discussion; there were 29 comments supporting the move and 20 opposing it. In the mover's talk page discussion, they said quote "In my opinion, WP:Commonname is generally acceptable, but sometimes it does not align with common sense.", and also "From my observation, more people supported the move. Considering this, and acknowledging the series of previous failed attempts with Twitter, I found it acceptable". These two statements, in my view, show a lack of understanding of how move discussions are supposed to work (they made a choice that aligned with their own common sense rather than consensus, and they counted comments as votes). When asked for clarification, the closer stated "If you believe microblogging is the same as X, no answer from me is going to convince you", which shows an unwillingness to discuss their decision to move the page. In short, this page was moved way before consensus had been reached based on the personal "common sense" that a non-admin found "acceptable". Di (they-them) ( talk) 04:43, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the move review of the page listed in the close of this review. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the move review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
This is a straightforward supervote, with the closer deciding several things. The first being that "massacre" is non-neutral, and that the other pages within the same category of pages with the title "massacre" are not relevant. The close explicitly endorses maintaining systemic bias by refusing to engage with the fact that events that are titled "massacre" related to the ongong war in Gaza are not relevant to whether or not this event should so titled. A substantial majority of editors disagreed with the proposal and further disagreed with the claim that "massacre" is POV or that the other articles in the same category of pages are not relevant. That was ignored by a straightforward supervote. If the closer felt that their view was that this should be moved they should have voted instead of imposing their view over the consensus of editors opposed to the move. nableezy - 21:47, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the move review of the page listed in the close of this review. Please do not modify it. |
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