The following is an archived discussion of a
featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at
Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was kept by
User:Joelr31 16:36, 21 December 2008
[1].
This article has a lot of issues. Here are the highlights: several unsourced statements and the entire Sphere Grid section has no refs, an overly large storyline section, a poorly designed references Reception section, several one- or two-sentence paragraphs (
WP:MOS), and several statements in the lead look like they aren't part of a general overview, as they are specific details. --
Hydrokinetics12 (
talk)
04:19, 31 October 2008 (UTC)reply
Sorry, I meant to say "Reception" section (I was typing fast 'cause I really needed to hit the hay.) What I mean is that some scores are scattered throughout the prose, others are put into a list, making it look disorganized. --
Hydrokinetics12 (
talk)
18:37, 31 October 2008 (UTC)reply
The Development section could be expanded also. It's kind of poor for a featured article. The game is the "best game of all time" according to the Famitsu readers, and the main designers of the game are by far the most talkative people at Square Enix, so there's bound to be more information available.
Megata Sanshiro (
talk)
18:49, 31 October 2008 (UTC)reply
Actually, there's quite a lot of development information — it's just allocated to the appropriate sections. The "development" section is for information that does not fit with the other sections. Also, you're not going to get a lot of enthusiasm for trimming the story section, as veteran editors of Wikipedia — which summarizes most of the members of the FF wikiproject — know of the constant bickering between short and comprehensive summaries. — Deckiller00:00, 1 November 2008 (UTC)reply
Perhaps in most cases the issue of short/long story sections is debatable, but it's not in this case. It contains numerous details that aren't at all necessary to demonstrate how the story works. Moreover, these excessive details hamper readability, making it nearly impossible to make sense of the game's story. --
Hydrokinetics12 (
talk)
05:48, 1 November 2008 (UTC)reply
I agree; the story section contains far too many details as it stands. However, unless opinion has shifted again, the WikiProject may not be willing to trim the story themselves, as they were forced to expand it to the current length in the previous review (and I believe it was even trimmed after that, against supposed advice). I'm basically retired, so I won't be able to turn this article into something that matches the norms of 2008. — Deckiller07:01, 1 November 2008 (UTC)reply
Your best bet might be to go into the edit history and find an earlier, more succinct version of the setting/characters/story sections. — Deckiller07:08, 1 November 2008 (UTC)reply
My general experience is that the Wikiproject is ambiguous when it comes to how storylines should be covered. I try to clarify that an issue exists with the total style of the summary in reviews, yet users often try to resolve such concerns by removing a few adjectives to make it "shorter". If it is felt that it needs a summary style, yet the story reads as a point-by-point recount, then the whole thing needs to be rewritten in my opinion. The problem is that users seem to agree that it needs to be shortened in the review, yet the problem recurs in their successive articles. It is unhealthy for FAC contributors at peer review or FAC to take the prompts as absolute truths when they are partially subjective. In my experience, users have been known to make amendments even if they disagree with the advice, even though the option of arguing the case is a perfectly viable one. I was browsing an FAC one day that had a bloated, point-by-point storyline and an influential VG editor commended it especially in his/her review, which is not uncommon. I've felt for a long time that the issue needs to be raised at the VG project, although I also gave up on discussion there a long time ago too. Rant over.
AshnardTalkContribs12:08, 8 November 2008 (UTC)reply
I'll give trimming the story section a shot. I think most of the active members of the VG project are in agreement that shorter is better for plot summaries. So it shouldn't be an issue. (
Guyinblack25talk16:27, 8 November 2008 (UTC))reply
Yeah, I brought the images issue up before. Maybe the Farplane or the Map images can be removed, in favor of the "Sending" scene, which is a better descriptor of the game's art. Also, for a character-driven game, I'm surprised there's no shot that has all of the game's main characters. --
Hydrokinetics12 (
talk)
22:46, 16 November 2008 (UTC)reply
In my opinion, the gameplay section itself is too long, and the plot section should be severely trimmed in terms of setting (including all that unsourced information), and trim and merge the spirituality section into the setting. There's a serious issue of over-reliance on primary sources and I'm getting a vibe of
WP:OR throughout. As for development, I'm not exactly swayed by the suggestion that the section is fine as it is. Sure, there's information in other sections (Audio, versions and merchandise), but these sections should be reorganized within the article in a more logical fashion if this is where the content is; the merchandise section, for example, should go before reception. I'd say it currently has issues with 1a, 1c, 3, and 4 of
WP:FA?Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (
talk)14:36, 16 November 2008 (UTC)reply
I've finished copy-editing and cleaning up the article. I think I've addressed all concerns that have been brought up adequately, and I think it should keep its FA status, even though it has one unreliable source.
The Prince (
talk)
11:58, 24 November 2008 (UTC)reply
And that one source is? I'm still not swayed by the length of the plot, but perhaps a user who's never played the game can clean it up better; I'll take a look in the coming days. There's still the referencing issue in gameplay and throughout.
Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (
talk)00:57, 25 November 2008 (UTC)reply
I'm not sure of the plot-merit of naming each of the aeons; they are not prerequisite to understanding the story at large. Actually, that's one of the things that irritated me about the lengthier plot section. --
Hydrokinetics12 (
talk)
07:31, 25 November 2008 (UTC)reply
Prince's edits have really improved the prose. I just did a copy edit sweep and didn't find too much to improve upon. The in-game content is much more concise and the development section has been greatly expanded from what it was. I don't think the plot is too long considering it sums up 50+ hours of story into five paragraphs. But I agree a sweep from someone who hasn't played the game would help. (
Guyinblack25talk21:22, 26 November 2008 (UTC))reply
Thanks for the kind words. I think the plot section is as short as it can get, and contains the necessary details of a heavily plot-based game. David Fuchs: The source I'm talking about is ^ Khosla, Sheila (2003-10-13). "
Tetsuya Nomura 20s". FLAREgamer. Retrieved on 2008-11-23. I didn't find a reliable source to replace it, and since quite a lot of content from the characters section has been retrieved from that source, I decided not to remove it. But if everyone agrees it should be removed, I will do so.
The Prince (
talk)
21:43, 26 November 2008 (UTC)reply
Question: Since so many fair use images were removed from the article, would it be okay if a free use image is added? Maybe an image of Sakaguchi in the development section?
FFXI has 2 free use images of a developer and the composer of the game.
The Prince (
talk)
22:17, 25 November 2008 (UTC)reply
Was is necessary to remove all the fair use images? The point of fair use images is to illustrate concepts not possible with pure text descriptions, concepts such as the sphere grid and the game's character art. Having too few images is just as bad as too many when it comes to FA. --
Hydrokinetics12 (
talk)
00:16, 1 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Unfortunately we are bound by
WP:NFCC. Besides there are still 4 nonfree images in the article. As it stands, the main issue with the article is the possible original research and unsourced statements that need to be addressed.
Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (
talk)02:28, 1 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Well if this is into FARC now, delist; concerns about sourcing have not been addressed; I think the images are tolerable as of now, but the sourcing requires significant changes and additions.
Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (
talk)04:29, 4 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Comment: I think the gameplay section could use at least a mention of the minigames such as blitz, just like the other FF articles. The article could also stand to use some different screenshots. The Tidus/Yuna image should be replaced by something that depicts more of the game's main characters; the image shown now can't really qualify that it "significantly improves the quality of the article" b/c you can barely see the main characters' faces. I'll again say that a shot of the sphere grid is essential. Fair use says an image may be used
iff it depicts something that can't be detailed in words, and every review I have read seems to imply that the sphere grid is one such case. I'll try to make some changes to the lead so it flows more properly. --
Hydrokinetics12 (
talk)
22:05, 7 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Info on minigames added. I don't see the need in using an image of the Sphere Grid, though. The text pretty much explains the general idea of the Grid, IMO.
The Prince (
talk)
23:40, 13 December 2008 (UTC)reply
The only sourcing issue is one ref's reliability in question correct? If the source and related content is removed, would that solve the problem?
I agree. There must be a better image than that. You can't even see Tidus' face. I tried to find a better one, but was unsuccessful. A good image would be something like
[2], but since its fan-made and not made by Square Enix, it can unfortunately not be used, IIRC.
The Prince (
talk)
21:51, 9 December 2008 (UTC)reply
I looked around at the usual suspects, I don't think that it will be found for a while, if at all. All the issues seem to be addressed, can this be kept? Or are there still issues to be addressed? I would take a look at how it looked when this began and now, and you'll see dramatic improvement.
Judgesurreal777 (
talk)
19:20, 11 December 2008 (UTC)reply
I've sent an e-mail to the author of the article (Sheila Khosla) regarding its reliability. If it's true that the sources contained the same information, the content about the characters can be added back. But for now, it may as well be removed. Regarding the image usage, I think one more is okay. We just need to decide on one that adds the most to the article. Any suggestions?
The Prince (
talk)
20:09, 11 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Also, I think the image in the "versions and merchandise" section should be replaced. The date of when the photo was taken is on the image (see
here), and it doesn't look very good, IMO. It also has a very high resolution.
The Prince (
talk)
20:30, 11 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Keep. I and several others have worked very hard on this article, and I believe it currently meets the FA criteria. Anything controversial is cited with reliable sources, plot has been significantly trimmed, development has been expanded, fair use images have been greatly reduced etc. This is what the article looked like before the FAR:
[3].
The Prince (
talk)
23:18, 13 December 2008 (UTC)reply