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Ah, the United States commemorative half dollars. By the 1930s, these were getting much less special as every nonprofit in the country seemingly tried to fundraise through one of them. The Texas commemorative half is famed for its absurdly intricate reverse design, which is a great example of the pitfalls of coin design by committee. I initially planned to bring this up to FA by my lonesome, but Wehwalt took an interest to it and added a bunch of contemporary newspaper sources, so now it's a co-nomination! Hope you enjoy the read.
Generalissima (
talk) (it/she)
19:58, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
This article is about 1997 science fiction film Starship Troopers, one of director Paul Verhoeven's last works in the western studio system and the unofficial third and final installment in his anti-authority trilogy including RoboCop and Total Recall. The film was widely derided on its release as a pro-fascist film despite its intention to satirize fascism, which was blamed both on poor marketing and contemporary cultural leanings. It's reputation has grown over time once the satire became evident and is now considered a cult classic.
Darkwarriorblake (
talk)
16:45, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Drive-by comments
10,000+ words!! Really?
"In December 1991 ... Davison realized it bore many similarities to the 1959 science fiction novel, Starship Troopers, by Robert A. Heinlein. The novel had ... remained an enduringly popular work for over four decades." Do the math. :-)
Gog the Mild (
talk)
17:00, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
It's 9700 words, most of my comprehensive articles on older films range around this as comprehensiveness is part of the requirement, but as I say on each review, the Thematic Analysis section is something I have to include, not want to, and I have to provide an acceptable level of coverage for it. That section is 1300 words in this case and, plus the 400 words in the lead, text relating to a big and influential science fiction film adapted from a controversial book, with an arduous production, and which generated controversy itself is actually about 8000, though, per
WP:SIZE, I can go up to 15,000 words if the scope of the subject warrants it. I have gone through prior to this and copy edited it and removed some information which I found interesting but I took an objective approach towards so I do believe I've reached a fair equilibrium.
I think by 1991 it would've been in 4 separate decades, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, but I've removed it anyway as I don't think the specificty is important.
Darkwarriorblake (
talk)
17:20, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Since its inception in the late 1930s,
Blue Note Records has been an influential force in jazz music, with major releases from genre figureheads such as
John Coltrane,
Miles Davis, and
Thelonious Monk under its belt in the mid-20th century. Its presence still stands strong today, with
Norah Jones and
Robert Glasper taking home Grammys for the label in the 2000s and 2010s. Music aside, Blue Note has also attracted attention for their wonderful album covers, some of which have been noted for their unique
Bauhaus-esque compositions and labeled by some writers as being the definitive "look" for jazz as a whole. This article chronicles the history of those covers from the early 1950s to the present day, with commentary revolving around their designs (
Andy Warhol did a few!) and their respective designers, particularly
Reid Miles.
Quite an unusual subject around here, but looks interesting (I've just been listening through my old collection of jazz CDs, some Blue Note among them). Will have a look soon.
FunkMonk (
talk)
15:14, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Thank you for so quickly taking to reviewing this nomination,
FunkMonk! I've addressed your comments below, though I may have also been quite quick to reply, so I apologize if I'm causing any merge conflicts here. Looking forward to reading anything else you may have to say in the future!
joeyquism (
talk)
15:55, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
One concern I had was whether there are sources that cover this as a single subject, or if it was just stitched together from disparate sources about individual covers, but it does seem there is some wider coverage.
Yeah, this is something I initially believed to be the case as well; however, I was elated upon my discovery that there have actually been entire book chapters and articles written about this topic, lol
I see a few
WP:duplinks, which can be highlighted with this script:
[1]
I've installed the script; however, I'm not sure that it's working right now (for me, at least). If you could point me out to what you've seen so far, that would be much appreciated, though I should note that I intentionally double-linked some things in accordance with "Link a term at most once per major section, at first occurrence."
Never mind; I only now realized that it's off to the side. I've since resolved the duplicate links, which I now see were inappropriate.
Images of people should preferably be aligned so the subject "faces" towards the text, could another Andy Warhol picture be used, or could it be right aligned?
Personally, I dislike when every image/piece of media is aligned in the same way, so I'll get to looking for another Warhol picture I just found the mirrored (potentially original?) image on Commons (Andy Warhol1975.jpg). I've replaced it in the article.
In the first footnote you only give lastname of the person mentioned, but in the second you give the full name, could be consistent. Talking strictly about the people mentioned earlier in the article already, Hermansader and Miles.
Adjusted so that the full name appears in both footnotes.
"covers of first eight 12-inch" The first eight?
Ah, yeah. Fixed.
" by German-Jewish immigrant Alfred Lion.[1] The label initially comprised Lion and American writer Max Margulis" Are their nationalities really necessary here? You don't give it for most other people mentioned in the article. Doesn't really seem relevant to the story either.
I feel like indicating where Lion emigrated from is relevant here as it establishes a bit more context, though I do agree that "American writer" is redundant. I've removed the latter, though I may ease up on removing the German-Jewish designation later.
I won't press the issue, but if the Bauhaus connection had some relation to the German origin, I could see a point in it, not so much when it has no significance to the story.
FunkMonk (
talk)
01:01, 13 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I believe that Lion's origin is rather important to the history of Blue Note; many sources emphasize this point as being something unique to Blue Note itself (e.g. Cook p. ix calls the label "little other than two German guys putting out music they loved", Havers p. 22 states that the (fairly obvious) circumstances in Germany during the 1930s "played a significant role in the creation of Blue Note Records", etc.) I think this should be included in the background section, which serves to establish some context for the essence of Blue Note. This might just be a bit of impassioned writing on my part, though I understand your concern here. Nevertheless, I'll keep it in unless others prod me to leave it out. Thank you for your thoughts on this matter.
joeyquism (
talk)
01:52, 13 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Since the scope of the article is all covers by this label, it seems an oversight that nothing is said about covers from before the late 1940s, if the label produced records already from 1939, which I'm sure must have had some sort of covers? I think something about this is necessary under background at least, how were the pre-late 1940s albums packaged?
Unfortunately, I struggled with this issue while writing the article as well. The earliest Blue Note release with an album cover I could find was Sidney Bechet's Jazz Classics Vol 1, which was recorded in 1939 but released in 1951, around when Paul Bacon joined the label. However, while researching in order to address this concern, I've found that prior to September 1950, Blue Note releases were packaged in "plain, mass-produced... paper sleeves" according to page 79 of the Richard Havers book. Not sure of where to include this information as of right now, but if you have any suggestions, feel free to let me know; I'm not exactly looking at this with the freshest of eyes just yet.
Yes, the info you list is exactly what I'm asking for, and could fit well before you introduce Wolff in the Background section.
FunkMonk (
talk)
01:01, 13 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Actually, upon a second read of the excerpt, I'm not sure that this information is applicable, as it makes no explicit mention of Blue Note actually using those paper sleeves; I may have paraphrased it incorrectly while in a drowsy stupor. Here's the part of the text I'm concerned with:
The new format brought with it the additional cost of creating individual album sleeves. These were more expensive than the plain, mass-produced, 78-rpm paper sleeves that were a one-size-fits-all solution. (Havers 2022, p. 79)
I've prepared a revised sentence in the History section that would look something like Prior to September 1950, Blue Note had packaged their records in plain paper sleeves; however, the growing popularity of 10-inch (25 cm)
LP records in the late 1940s and early 1950s...; if this information were to be included, I think that the Background section would be a strange location, as to my knowledge such sections should be (within reason) some sort of elaborative text on a topic that encompasses the article's subject rather than the subject itself, akin to the background section of a monument or an album. Let me know your thoughts on this, and I will prune further based on those comments.
joeyquism (
talk)
01:52, 13 July 2024 (UTC)reply
There was some problems with this which I chimed in on
[2], but shouldn't Genius of Modern Music, Vol. 1 be linked at first mention? Pinging
Eugenia ioessa as to how this should be done.
You don't need to spell out full names after first mention, now you do it at least for Reid Miles and Alfred Lion, could be checked throughout, because now it's inconsistent anyhow.
Yeah, it gets a bit hard when it's a barrage of names - I've removed what I saw with regards to duplicated artist first names. I do feel that the style and composition section is a bit weird starting off with "Miles is credited..." rather than "Reid Miles is credited..." because the former makes it sound as if the article is about him (to me, at least). I've removed "Reid" for now, along with other first name duplicates.
"and Blue Note founder Alfred Lion" Not sure about presenting him again the second time around, but maybe ok since it's a bit after his first introduction.
I feel like this is fair to include.
"while the title "Genius Of Modern Music" is written" Not sure, but since this is still the title of the album, shouldn't it still be in italics?
I think that since it's more of a reference to the words themselves rather than the work, this should be fine. If that makes sense? Removed this altogether - see below re: "There seems to be some overlap..."
"with a then-unknown Andy Warhol" While famous, could still be presented by occupation like most other people you mention.
I think "with then-unknown artist Andy Warhol" reads a bit strangely, given that most people in tune with art within the past century would have some idea of who or what Andy Warhol is? However, I also understand that article writers should generally assume that people are reading them to learn everything (at least that's my philosophy to a degree), so I think that this revision can stick, at least for now.
"Following Lion's departure, Miles also left" and "After Miles left Blue Note in 1967". I think the date should be given at first mention. As it reads now, the reader first gets the impression that he left the same year as Lion, until reading the following section.
I believe that I've covered this with "This frustration, coupled with heart problems, prompted his retirement from the label in 1967. Following Lion's departure, Miles also left...", though if you are referring to a different aspect, please let me know.
"are often supplemented by the photography of Francis Wolff, whose candid black-and-white photographs of musicians at recording sessions appeared on hundreds of Blue Note album covers" This seems to repeat info already stated in earlier sections (except for the photos being black-and-white), could be summarised further or somehow consolidated.
Reduced to just "which appeared on hundreds of Blue Note album covers", and added the information about the candid and black-and-white qualities of the photos to the 1951–1956: Early years section.
There seems to be some overlap in how you describe styles used between the History and Style sections, which feels kind of repetitive. It seems a bit arbitrary that the styles of some individual covers are described nde rHistory, but others under Style.
I'll admit that I didn't like this either, even while writing the article. I've since removed the longer style descriptions of individual covers in the History section.
I'm not sure if all the info should be wholesale removed, but could perhaps be moved to the Style section, if it hasn't already been.
FunkMonk (
talk)
01:01, 13 July 2024 (UTC)reply
As I've written it, the style section focuses more on articulating the techniques used on the covers rather than in-depth descriptions of the covers themselves; unfortunately, I feel as if honing in on a few covers more than the others seems a bit unfair and awkward? I tried rewriting the sentence beginning They are generally characterized by their use of bold colors like ochre, vermilion, and indigo... as They are generally characterized by their use of bold colors like ochre and vermillion, as seen on the covers of both volumes of Monk's Genius of Modern Music (1956); however, that would warrant the omission of the mention of indigo, which I feel adds a little more to the idea of "bold colors". Regardless, I will certainly take this comment into consideration for future revisions.
joeyquism (
talk)
01:52, 13 July 2024 (UTC)reply
A few things I'm left wondering are how do the covers of other jazz-producing labels of the time compare to those of Blue Note? Were they different, or did they later mimic the Blue Note style, considering it is here described as "definitive of the visual identity of jazz"? Looking at my Columbia album covers, for example, shows little resemblance to the Blue Note style.
I didn't really look too much into the covers of other jazz record labels, as the labels themselves were seldom brought up at all in my research of Blue Note. I would have assumed some apt comparisons would be made had there been any notable covers among the other labels, though I didn't seem to find any.
I'll certainly keep an eye out. Hopefully I can find something comprehensive, but if not, I would say "it is what it is" applies here.
joeyquism (
talk)
01:52, 13 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"In an interview with the Kennedy Center, Blue Note president Don Was noted" You could give date for this and other retrospective statements for context. Especially since you suddenly mention another president of Blue Note.
I've added the year of the interview, though I'm not sure what you mean by the rest of this. I apologize.
I basically mean all the retrospective views discussed under Reception and impact, would help their context if you added years to when the statements were published.
FunkMonk (
talk)
01:01, 13 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"Artist Logan Walters reimagined the album covers of Wu-Tang Clan in the Blue Note style." In what context? An art project? Re-issues of those albums?
Revised to "A project by artist Logan Walters featured the album covers of Wu-Tang Clan redesigned in the Blue Note style." Do note that I could not find a single date from a reliable source anywhere; this guy's website states that the project was featured in the New York Times, but after some odd hours scouring the web for this alleged NYT recognition, I couldn't find an article even mentioning his name. Odd, but I think it's still worth a mention.
Candid photography should also be linked in the article body.
Done.
"photos by label executive Francis Wolff" You don't mention that occupation in the article body.
I've revised this as "pictures by photographer Francis Wolff". Wolff was a label executive for Blue Note, though I think his role as a photographer is more pertinent here, at it was his profession prior to joining the label and a sort of side-role during his tenure there too.
Hi
FunkMonk, thank you for your comments. I've addressed all (or at least I believe I have - it's late where I am and this was my winding-down-before-bed activity) of your comments above and my edits should be reflected in the article. Hope to hear back from you soon.
joeyquism (
talk)
03:43, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
FunkMonk: Hello again! I've addressed your comments above; apologies for any pushback that could potentially be the source of contention. Looking forward to what you may comment next.
joeyquism (
talk)
01:52, 13 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The Bonn–Oberkassel dog is one of the oldest known examples of a domestic dog that modern archaeology is pretty sure about. We've found more late Paleolithic dogs since it was discovered in the 1910s, but what's most important about this little pup is the evidence of early veterinary care, and how ancient humans cared for this creature, seemingly out of compassion alone. I hope you enjoy reading, and I hope I can make any changes needed to bring this article to the best state it can be.
Generalissima (
talk) (it/she)
03:01, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Will review. Feel free to refuse my comments with proper justification. I assume that this article is written in British English?
750h+12:52, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
lead
while the other bones from the dog were placed into the ==> "while the dog's other bones were put into the"
40–50 cm (16–20 in) tall at shoulder height and weighed add a comma before "and"
Osteoarthritis, alongside signs of enamel defects, missing teeth, and gum disease indicate add a comma before "disease"
it may have been due to effects of its illness ==> "it may have been due to the effects of its illness"
background
populations of gray wolves ==> "populations of grey wolves"
A number of prehistoric dog burials are known ==> "(Several/numerous) prehistoric dog burials are known"
A large number of Magdalenian dog ==> "Many Magdalenian dog"
discovery and research history
On 18 February, 1914, workmen at remove the comma after "February"
A number of other animal ==> "Several other animal"
grouping a number of other bone ==> "grouping other bone"
in 1993 specified this age to slightly later than originally thought ==> "in 1993 specified this age as slightly later than originally thought"
and grouped a number of other ==> "and grouped several other"
created a catalog of the ==> "created a catalogue of the"
Finds of domestic dogs prior to this are ==> "Finds of domestic dogs before this are"
physical description
identifiable bone fragments are known from the ==> "identifiable bone fragments known are from the"
closes at an age of 7 months i'd remove "an age of" since the reader would probably know that you're talking about age
health
a behavior potentially ==> "a behaviour potentially"
prior to the end of the Iron Age ==> "before the end of the Iron Age"
falling down without control. remove "down"
from the vomit and diarrhea caused by ==> "from the vomit and diarrhoea caused by"
if it was killed in order to bury it alongside ==> "if it was killed to bury it alongside"
second dog
differed in color from the other teeth ==> "differed in colour from the other teeth"
Whilst reviewing I was a bit confused as to whether we were using British or American English, as it is a German dog. Feel free to refuse the British English suggestions if the latter's the case. Fine work overall.
750h+13:16, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I've been wondering if this one would come up here for a while. Greatly enjoyed reading -- comments below which are, as ever, suggestions rather than demands. UndercoverClassicistT·
C21:12, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I would try to get the dog's rough date into the first paragraph, if not the first sentence: I know we give "Late Palaeolithic", but most readers won't know what that means beyond "a really long time ago".
The Bonn–Oberkassel dog (German: Hund von Bonn–Oberkassel) is a Late Paleolithic dog: I think we would say was, wouldn't we? In the same way as "Christopher Wren was an architect who is buried in St Paul's Cathedral"?
put into the university's Geological Collections: I think we should decap here, unless that name was used in a very formal sense (for the British Museum, for example, we would talk about its Roman collection, or the Department of Greek and Roman Antiquities)
32 identifiable bone fragments have been attributed to the dog:
MOS:FIGURES discourages starting a sentence with a number in figures.
It was around 7.5 months old at death, 40–50 cm (16–20 in) tall at shoulder height, and weighed 13–18 kg (29–40 lb), suggesting a slender build similar to the Indian wolf or some modern sighthounds.: again, I would be tempted to promote this to the first paragraph, as this is pretty fundamental information as to what readers are picturing to be the subject of the article. The current final sentence of the first paragraph could then be "demoted" to the second, as that information becomes useful and interesting once we know what this animal is that we're talking about.
40–50 cm (16–20 in) tall at shoulder height: this isn't quite idiomatic: you've done it much better in the body with tall at the shoulder.
the Bonn–Oberkassel dog suffered from a canine distemper infection as a puppy: for humans, admittedly, but most medical style guides (including the MoS) discourage "suffered from (
WP:SUFFER). Could do "survived", and rework the next sentence slightly?
It might be a nice touch to do a double-image in the lead, with the second image being a modern dog(s) of similar build (e.g. an Indian wolf and a sighthound?).
Expansive human care: "Expansive" means "over a wide area"; I think we mean "extensive" ("very thorough").
suggests significant compassion towards the dog: or, more cynically, that the dog was very useful?
A dog molar belonging to a separate, older dog: I would cut the first dog: it would be surprising for the dog to have owned some other animal's molar. "Second" might be a more natural word here than "separate"?
I would link "domestication" on the word "domesticated".
place the origin of dogs to a population of East Asian wolves c. 39,000 BP.: you place something in or with something, not to it.
Numerous prehistoric dog burials are known, spanning from ritualistic and symbolic burial to simple corpse disposal out of hygienic concern: I think we need to be a bit careful about motives in this article; we often speculate about religious, compassionate, hygenic or so on motivations, but the honest truth is that we have no idea what far-ancient people were thinking when they carried out death practices. In particular, I'd need a lot of convincing that we can trace a meaningful distinction between "we should bury that dead thing because it's dirty" and "we should bury that dead thing to avoid religious pollution/the anger of the spirits that comes from being around dead things", or indeed that people in the Paleolithic would have drawn one themselves.
There are quite a lot of "many", "some" and similar words in the Background section. Can we give a ballpark for these numbers?
"rechter Unterkiefer vom Wolf": when quoting in italics, we don't use quote marks, but what's the rationale for the German here at all?
While the Oberkassel skeletons themselves were put into storage in the Rheinisches Landesmuseum Bonn, animal remains from the site were split into two groups: I would cut themselves and put human before Oberkassel, as the dog's remains are, strictly, a skeleton.
In the late 1970s, a student studying the Oberkassel site rediscovered the separated material within the university collections: can we name-check them?
Use a lang template for words like Landesmuseum, with |italic=no, so that screen readers handle them correctly.
A 1982 study: similarly, can we name and, ideally, cite it? In general, when we refer to a specific work of scholarship directly, it's good to be able to cite it and, if possible, direct interested readers towards it.
dating to 15,000–13,500 BP: this needs a circa.
Finds of domestic dogs before this are tentative and disputed: in the Background section, we gave 17,000 BP as the terminus ante quem for dogs being "well-established" in the Magdalenian.
This made the dog the earliest known example of a domesticated animal.: do we mean the Oberkassel dog specifically, or the dog in general? Would clarify. Might be nice to add a footnote to say what the next couple are?
I would link
premaxilla and
coronoid process in the footnote; we have generally done similar in the body text.
dates the dog to c. 14,000 BP (c. 12,000 BCE), with estimates ranging about 200 years in either direction: firstly, I would give the BP/BCE equivalence the first time we use BP, and then not again. Secondly, are you sure about "estimates ranging about 200 years in either direction"? That's more precision than I'd expect in an estimate that far back: it's more usual to write something like "15,000 BP ± 200 years", which means that the tools involved are only precise enough to give a reading that's accurate to within about 200 years either way, not that someone thinks it's 15,000 BP, someone things 15,100, and so on.
The cranial growth plate of the lumbar vertebra is closed: can we explain, without unduly bothering the reader with details, what it means for a growth plate to be open or closed?
The dog's remaining canine tooth showed heavy abrasion and enamel loss, resembling cage biter syndrome. However, since wrought metal only emerged in the Chalcolithic, this wear was likely due to compulsive stone chewing: I think we could make this a bit tighter and say something like "The dog's remaining canine tooth showed heavy abrasion and enamel loss, probably caused by compulsive stone chewing". The Chalcolithic is a long way away from the Paleolithic, so any talk of cages is just going to confuse people.
Osteoarthritis is extremely rare in dog remains before the end of the Iron Age; one of the only other known cases is a buried dog from the Anderson site in Tennessee, c. 7000 BP: slightly devil's advocate, but how many specimens are we working with here (OK, I know there's quite a lot from the Bronze Age, but how many really comparable examples have we got?), and how many of them were old enough to get what is usually a disease of old age? How visible is it on a skeleton, anyway (I notice we're diagnosing it by a proxy here, which isn't perfect -- just ask
Donald Trump).
Most typical causes of elbow osteoarthritis in modern young dogs are unlikely to have created the bone spurs seen in the Bonn–Oberkassel dog: similarly, I would explain this by outlining what these causes typically are.
in a study of 544 wild dogs and wolves, not one had the horizontal enamel damage typical of the disease in puppies: I don't know whether it needs to be said that all of those animals died (or were killed) in adulthood?
Caring for the dog would have had no practical purpose for humans, as the prolonged disease required significant effort and likely prevented training.: again, I want to believe this but have to be a little cynical: the humans may well have considered it possible that the dog would recover, and therefore become or remain valuable. Compassion isn't the only possible motivation here.
It is unknown whether the dog died from its past illness or other natural causes, or if it was killed to bury it alongside the two humans.: do any of the studies note signs (or absence thereof) of cut marks on the bones? I'm particularly interested in the possibility of butchery here.
One estimation, extrapolated from the diameter of a left diaphyseal humeral fragment, estimated the height at shoulder level as 46.8 cm: this isn't really extrapolated in a strict sense (you can't extrapolate from a single data point, or from apples to oranges): based on? Suggest linking the technical terms and converting the cm value.
When Dogs and People were Buried Together: Were is a verb, so capitalise.
The Oldest Case Yet Reported of Osteoarthritis in a Dog: an Archaeological and Radiological Evaluation: in title case, capitalise the first word after a colon or similar. Likewise for Morrey 2006.
Can we use |trans-journal= for the two German-language journals?
Some journals have ISSNs, others don't: advise consistency.
FM
I somehow missed this when first glancing the nominations page, I guess because of the long placenames, but seems right up my alley. Will have a look soon, probably after UC's issues are resolved so we don't tread the same ground.
FunkMonk (
talk)
02:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I see a few
WP:duplinks, which can be highlighted with this script:
[3]
Various anatomical terms like premaxilla, maxillary, coronoid, etc., should be linked, and perhaps even explained in parenthesis (see recent palaeontology FA articles for example).
Not much that can be done about it, but I wonder if the diagrams tagged as de minimis here
[4] aren't really based on some images that are already in the public domain. Perhaps
Mariomassone has come across them in their many image searches for canids?
William Harris may also be interested, if not entirely inactive.
FunkMonk (
talk)
02:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
This article is about a rural, sparsely populated county in Tennessee. It has been continually improved since reaching Good Article status in 2022, and was recommended to take to FAC by peer review in 2023. Additional updates, modifications, changes, and improvements have been done since then, and it's about as good as I can get it. Sources have been exhaustively researched and statements cited. At this point, I am running out of additional sources to keep building the page from, so I think it's as good a time as any to start the FAC process. Thanks in advance!
nf utvol (
talk)
17:57, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Image review
Suggest adding alt text
Suggest scaling up the maps
File:Perry_County_Courthouse_(1868).jpg: when and where was this first published? Ditto File:Noah_Harder.png
Thanks! Added alt text to everything and scaled up the maps a bit. Let me know if you think they should be bigger. Regarding the image publication info, the info on their sourcing is in the file page on Commons, but they're both items in the collections of the Tennessee State Library and Archives. The exact original publication date and author are unknown, but they are both listed as out of copyright. Regarding the age pyramid, I went ahead and removed it. I'll work on building an updated one with sourcing. Thanks again for the image review!!!
nf utvol (
talk)
23:35, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I'm not seeing anything at the source link for the first item regarding copyright status - could you clarify where that's coming from? On the second, I see a claim it is out of copyright, but not one specific to the given tagging.
Nikkimaria (
talk)
23:49, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I looked again and you're correct about Perry_County_Courthouse_(1868).jpg, it doesn't have a copyright status on that page, however the courthouse depicted in this image burned in 1928. Additionally, the image was mounted on a card that had an estimated date of 1900 on it (I pulled the physical copy from the library and scanned it to get a higher resolution image), hence the date in the image's page. Using the library's date of 1900, that would put it as before the 1903 guideline listed in
WP:PD for unpublished works where the author's identity is unknown. Regarding the Noah_Harder.png, I updated the tag to just reflect no copyright instead of copyright expired since that better represents the notice on the source page.
nf utvol (
talk)
00:39, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
HF
I don't have time for a full review, but I do have some concerns.
" "It's Just Our Nature". YouTube. Retrieved March 14, 2022." - what makes a youtube video from "patvb2003" (with less than 2,000 views and the channel with 5 subscribers as of the time I'm posting this) a high-quality reliable source?
I should be able to source the information from this elsewhere, that particular source should have probably been removed long ago anyway. Anything that can't be sourced I'll remove.
"Cedar Grove Iron Furnace". The Historical Marker Database. Archived from the original on March 15, 2022. Retrieved March 15, 2022." - this source is user-generated
" "Perryville First County Seat of Perry County". HMdb.org. Retrieved October 2, 2023." - also user-generated
For the HMdb.org entries, while the source itself is user generated, it is in turn sourced to a historical marker inscription. If that's not acceptable, then I think for most of this information I can find a different/better source, or just source the marker itself...let me know your thoughts.
"Younger, Lillye. "Perry County, Tennessee". Decatur Co. TNGenWeb. Archived from the original on March 14, 2022. Retrieved March 14, 2022." - what makes this local genealogical source a high-quality RS?
Younger is a historian who has been published by a university press (see
here). My reading of
WP:NOTRELIABLE leads me to believe this is enough to establish some level of subject matter expertise that would allow a self-published page to pass the bar for reliability for non-BLP related items. Considering this, if this is still too questionable, I'll see if I can find separate references.
" Duncan, James Carl (2013). Adventures of a Tennessean. AuthorHouse. p. 3. ISBN 978-1-4817-4157-6." - what makes this self-published book a high-quality RS
I'll see if I can find a separate source, if not I'll pull that sentence and source.
"Tennessee River Flood Stages Data". Parsons Weather. ParsonsWeather.com." - what makes this a high-quality RS?
So this is pretty borderline, I'll admit. It's a self-described "weather hobbyist" site from a group that provides information to the CWOP. I'll see if I can find additional sourcing from the NOAA or other government/academic sources. Updated info and source to FEMA flood maps.
nf utvol (
talk)
16:28, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
" "Tennessee Population Density County Rank". USA.com. World Media Group. Archived from the original on March 15, 2022. Retrieved March 15, 2022." - what makes this website a high-quality RS?
I see the concerns here, but it's nothing more than a compilation of otherwise publicly available census data that appears to pass a spot check for accuracy. I'll see if I can find it in another form from a different source, though. Surely the Census Bureau has this information in a pretty digestible format.
" "Domino 4328 – The Pickard Family – 1929". Old Time Blues. Retrieved February 27, 2024." - this is somebody's personal website. What makes it high-quality RS?
Let me dig to see if I can find another source for this. If not, I'll remove it and the associated information (as well as the associated sourcing and information on
The Pickard Family).
""Domestic Names Search". Geographic Names Information System. United States Geological Survey. Retrieved March 7, 2024." - this is being used to support the existence of a place as an "unincorporated community". This source is not appropriate for that; see
WP:GNIS
I'll pare down this list to only those with non-GNIS sourcing. I was under the mistaken impression that GNIS could be used for sourcing for lists such as this, but should not be used to establish greater notability for individual articles.
Thanks for the initial review, I'll start working on these and any others that might be of concern! Any further advice/recommendations is appreciated!
nf utvol (
talk)
15:42, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Cyfeilliog was a bishop in south-east Wales in the time of Alfred the Great. He is best known for having been captured by the Vikings and ransomed by Alfred's son Edward the Elder for the large amount of forty pounds of silver.
Dudley Miles (
talk)
14:23, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
It is unsourced and apparently created by an editor who has long since disappeared. All the other maps I can find in Commons are not as good and equally unsourced. There is a map in Lloyd's History of Wales, and as he died in 1947 it is presumably out of copyright. Can I scan and upload it? It is over size (9x11 ins) but I can presumably either shrink it or scan part of it.
Dudley Miles (
talk)
21:14, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Thanks
Gog but the Ecnomus map has licence {{self|cc-by-sa-4.0}}. Presumably I cannot use that as I just scanned the map. Can you advise what the licence should be in this case?
Dudley Miles (
talk)
22:28, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
There is a hiccup. I have this work first published in 1901, with a second edition in 1912. Is that correct? Do you know if the same map featured in either of those? If it did, on what page?
Gog the Mild (
talk)
17:24, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
That is correct, except that the first edition was in 1911. I will ask for a scan of the map - if there is one - in the first edition to check.
Dudley Miles (
talk)
21:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Can I suggest cropping that image, and/or adding a caption that more clearly points the reader to the top right? It's not totally obvious which bit is the cryptogram (it could be the marginal note about two thirds down, for example). It might also be worth cropping out the Cambridge UL copyright claim, as Wikimedia's position is that Cambridge can't claim a copyright purely by virtue of scanning the thing (edit: but perhaps they could for the scale ruler, so another argument for cropping?). UndercoverClassicistT·
C13:33, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
A really excellent article, and no doubt some tricky source-work to pull it all together. As ever, the below are thoughts and suggestions rather than demands:
Can we give a pronunciation guide at the top?
I do not like pronunciation guides. They always seem to be one editor's unreferenced personal opinion, as would be the case in this article.
Dudley Miles (
talk)
09:23, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Welsh orthography is very consistent between spelling and pronunciation: see
Help:IPA/Welsh or, if you like, you could reference something like
this guide from Aberystwyth University. Given that very few Anglophone readers will pronounce Cyfeilliog anything close to what's intended, the benefits of adding at least an IPA transcription seem to greatly outweigh the costs. In policy terms, I'd say that this is the same principle as
WP:CALC (that making a routine calculation isn't OR): if we have a good source for how all of those morphemes are pronounced, it's a routine calculation to string all of those together. UndercoverClassicistT·
C10:07, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I've gone and done this using
Help:IPA/Welsh (erring on the side of South Walian pronunciations). As the template automatically links there, I believe that's the usual practice for "citation" where the name is pronounced as "normal" in the language. I haven't written a respell, deferring to your point above about it being more subjective. UndercoverClassicistT·
C07:19, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Am I reading this right? It looks like you added Modern Welsh pronunciation to the Old Welsh name. My understanding of the diachrony of this is that there is no way /au/ would have been pronounced [ai] in Old Welsh.
This paper (p. 7) shows that /au/ monophthongizes to /o~ɔː/, which is indeed confirmed in the Modern Welsh orthography (-auc → -og) . Unless I misunderstand, this should be removed before promotion.
ThaesOfereode (
talk)
18:17, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Bartrum 1993 citation: check formatting of AD. Currently one letter has a dot, one doesn't, and both are spaced: our MoS advises no dots or spaces (and to make that change in a title per
MOS:CONFORMTITLE)
Cyfeilliog is probably the author of a cryptogram (encrypted text) in the Juvencus Manuscript: the tone here sounds as if we expect readers to know what the Juvencus Manuscript is; I must admit that I didn't. Suggest "the book of poetry known as the Juvencus Manuscript" or similar? I think we've got space in the lead to play with.
Bit of a problem now with in the ninth-century collection of poetry known as the Juvencus Manuscript, which would have required a knowledge of Latin and Greek: what's the antecedent of which? As written, it's "the ninth-century collection...", but I think we mean it to be "being the author of that". UndercoverClassicistT·
C10:07, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
but some historians are sceptical as they think that this date is late for a bishop active in the 880s.: we don't really explain this in the text, but it sounds like a pretty weak objection to me: surely he could have been consecrated in his twenties or so, and it's not ridiculous to have therefore died in his sixties or seventies? Do Sims-Williams and Davies give any more detail here? On another note, "are sceptical" sits slightly awkwardly: I think it's the combination of it being so explicitly mind-reading and so clearly present-tense. Perhaps better as "some historians consider this date too late for..."?
The souces do not give any more explanation, but it is not correct that he could have been appointed in his twenties. He was a priest, and the minimum age for consecration as a priest was 30. He was probably a monk for some years before becoming a bishop, so he was most likely born before 850 and would have been around 80 by 927. This was old for the time. Sceptical sounds OK to me.
Dudley Miles (
talk)
09:23, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Yeah, that seems a bit more solid, though at least personally I'd take that more as "may be a bit too late" rather than "definitely false". Augustus, Augustine and Jerome all lived well into their seventies, for example. But this is probably now better dealt with below. UndercoverClassicistT·
C10:07, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
It would clarify that Mawr isn't strictly a name, for non-Welsh speakers. It would also avoid the 'easter egg' effect, where some of our readers will pick up information here that isn't available to most. UndercoverClassicistT·
C10:07, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Mercia, the Anglo-Saxon kingdom on the eastern Welsh border, traditionally claimed hegemony over most of Wales: I am not a huge fan of traditionally for a few reasons: one, all traditions are invented: was this 'tradition' years old, decades old, centuries old...? Secondly, was this really a matter of people piously observing tradition, or a matter of the Mercians having lots of rough people with sharp things ready to enforce that 'tradition'? Suggest something like "which since the sixth century [or whatever] had claimed/asserted..."
This is the wording usually used by historians, and I think it conveys the position better than alternatives.
Do they put a date on it at all? I imagine that most of these historians are writing for people who know a little bit about the period, so won't assume that this stretches (e.g.) into the fifth century CE or earlier.
It went back to the early ninth century. There were claims in some periods of the eighth century, but the position then was more variable. I have changed to "Mercia, the Anglo-Saxon kingdom on the eastern Welsh border, had claimed hegemony over most of Wales since the early ninth century."
Dudley Miles (
talk)
15:24, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
In 881, Rhodri's sons defeated Æthelred in battle, but he still continued to dominate the south-east Welsh kingdoms, and they sought the protection of King Alfred the Great of Wessex. Is "they" the sons of Rhodri or the south-eastern [NB adjectival form] Welsh kingdoms?
On the maps front,
this one, with a few additions and sources to support, could be used as a starting point, perhaps cross-referenced with the Lloyd map?
all the districts of right-hand [southern] Wales: the word for "right-hand" and "southern" (de) is the same in Welsh, so I think we can just say "southern" here -- it's not some metaphor or odd turn of phrase; there's not really another way to say it.
Interesting! In that case, the argument is reversed (Latin has two different words here), so it should definitely be kept -- fascinating to see Asser's linguistic background creeping through. UndercoverClassicistT·
C10:07, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Also interesting that it is evidence against the claim made by some historians that Asser's biography is a fake by a later English writer. The claim is now rejected, but I have not looked into the arguments closely enough to see whether this point has ever been made.
Dudley Miles (
talk)
09:57, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Ellipsis (...) typically has a nbsp before it and a regular space after.
Page ranges take an endash (looking at n. 5 in particular)
I not understand the rules regarding endashes and I do not see why they matter. I have a script which fixes them but it has stopped working. Do you know of one which works?
Dudley Miles (
talk)
09:23, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I don't, unfortunately: the important rule here is that ranges (of pages, dates, etc) take an endash. More broadly, endashes are used if you would pronounce or think of the mark as "to" or "and" (so pp. 9–10 ('pages nine to ten'), the London–Edinburgh train ('London to Edinburgh'), the Oxford–Cambridge rivalry ('Oxford and Cambridge'), a Lee–Enfield rifle ('Lee and Enfield'). UndercoverClassicistT·
C10:07, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
It is in Latin, with each letter being the Greek for the number of the letter in the Latin alphabet.: not sure I've quite grasped this one: did the writer simply use e.g. the first Greek letter for the first Latin letter, the second Greek letter for the second Latin letter, and so on? I'd be interested to know what they did with y, in that case, as there are only 24 letters in Greek and quite a few Ys in Welsh...
It is in Latin, not Welsh. The source says "The cryptogram uses a code based on the Greek letters for the numbers 1-23, each of which replaces the appropriate Latin letter in the inscription." To avoid copyvio, I have "It is in Latin, with each letter being the Greek for numbers one to twenty-three replacing the number of the letter in the Latin alphabet." Does this look OK?
Dudley Miles (
talk)
09:57, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The interesting thing (no, honestly) is that there's a couple of ways to do it: if you could send the original over by email, I'd be very interested. At the moment, "the Greek for" sounds like it would be the Greek word: if we'd said "each letter is the English for that number", we'd expect to be reading "one, three, seventeen" or so on. How about "the Greek numeral", perhaps with a link to
Greek numerals? The question-mark is whether the writer used the numerical system or simply swapped in the letter with the same number (in other words, is L written as λ or as ΙΑ?), but I'll be able to see that from the text. UndercoverClassicistT·
C06:25, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Ah -- I'm having aa bit of a problem with sending emails, it seems. Could you perhaps put the file into Google Drive or similar and send me a link via Wikimail? UndercoverClassicistT·
C20:31, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I have actually managed to dig out the cryptogram
here, and he has used the numerical system (so Cemelliauc becomes Γ Ε IB E ΙΑ ΙΑ Θ Α Κ Γ -- 3, 5, 12, 5, 11, 11, 9, 1, 20, 3. I must admit that I can't make the rest of it work, partly because I don't think I'm reading all of his Greek letters correctly (and possibly haven't got the Latin alphabet in the same order), but it's definitely Greek numerals, so suggest with each letter replaced by the Greek numeral for the number of the letter in the Latin alphabet.UndercoverClassicistT·
C21:44, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
There are no errors in Greek in the cryptogram: if I've understood the system correctly, surely this only means that the author knew (or could look up) the order of the Greek letters: the language skill is in the Latin, surely?
This did occur to me, but Davies said that she had been unable to copy the cryptogram without errors, and it would have been extremely difficult for someone who did not know what he was copying. I have written "very difficult", not impossible. Do you have an alternative suggestion? Delete "very"?
Dudley Miles (
talk)
09:57, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I've managed to get hold of Davis' big book on the Juvencus manuscript via a certain online repository: there (p. 27), she only avows that the scribe must have known the Greek alphabet and understood the cipher (and therefore that the scribe is almost certainly the Cemelliauc/Cyfeilliog who composed it, rather than a later copyist). She doesn't credit him with knowing the Greek language, and indeed points out on p. 28 that some of his 'Greek' letters are rather more Insular-Latin than Greek. I think we can now clarify these details a little. UndercoverClassicistT·
C21:48, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
and this would have been very difficult to achieve unless the writer knew the language: see above: if it's simply a matter of letter-matching, I'm not convinced.
which was an unusual accomplishment in the period: well, it was in Wales. It was pretty normal in the Byzantine Empire, probably/maybe still a Thing in Italy, and
wasn't all that unusual in Ireland, at least in the C8th. Pedantic, perhaps, but I'd specify "in Wales", "in most of Western Europe", or similar.
I am not sure that the source supports your interpretation. It says "Eriugena is credited with a knowledge of Greek far exceeding that of his contemporaries" and "So the evidence points to a considerable disparity between the study of Greek in Ireland and that among Irishmen on the Continent, supporting Laistner's view of Greek in Ireland being almost non-existent." He does question the latter comment on the basis of later medieval material. The comment in the Cyfeilliog article that knowledge of Greek is rare is based on
Michael Lapidge's encyclopedia entry on the Continental scholar
Israel the Grammarian. That obviously would not apply to Byzantium or Moslem areas. I could add "in Europe". That would not be strictly correct as Europe technically includes Byzantium, but I do not think it would be misunderstood.
Dudley Miles (
talk)
09:57, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
That's not quite where the article ends up: Moran's point is that the evidence makes it look as if Greek was almost absent in Ireland, but he goes on to argue that this is an artefact of how our evidence base has been formed: he argues that at least some Irish people had a basic understanding of Greek and the tools to pick up a more advanced one. The other tricky area is southern Italy, particularly Sicily, which remained under Byzantine control for quite a while and where Greek has survived in tiny patches into the modern day (see
here, p. 444ff). I think "Europe" is still too broad, but "most of Western Europe" would be fine, or you could take another approach and say something like "outside regions where it remained a spoken language"? Certainly, by even the most optimistic models of the survival of Greek in the west, being able to read and write it fluently as a second-language learner was impressive (though again, I'm not convinced that knowing or being able to look up the Greek numerical system is really the same thing as that). UndercoverClassicistT·
C06:36, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I read McKee as saying more than that, but I do not think it is clear what she is saying, so I have deleted comments about his knowledge of Greek.
Dudley Miles (
talk)
09:01, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The cryptogram is in a different handwriting from the rest of the manuscript: not sure handwriting is a countable noun: in a different hand or in different handwriting.
Is McKee's the only reconstruction of the cryptogram? Especially given that we've got lacunae, I'd be surprised if there's not some level of uncertainty or debate. Would be nice to include the 'ciphertext' and the Latin, if we've got them.
There probably are no other reconstructions as Davies says that the cryptogram has been ignored in recent years. She copies the version by
Whitley Stokes, which she says is "apparently" based on decipherment by
John Rhŷs and his daughter Olwen in the 1890s. My Greek is non-existent, but I can email you a scan of the Greek and Latin versions if you wish.
Dudley Miles (
talk)
09:57, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
but as the source for the document: can we clarify this: do we mean "the person who tells us that the document existed" or "the person who came forth with the document"?
This is complicated. Edward Williams's 1796 History of Monmouthshire contains a tract dated 1729 ascribed to David Williams, allegedly based on a transcript received from the forger Morganwg. Some scholars have objected that the tract cannot be genuine as David Williams died in 1720, but Sims-Williams argues that some manuscripts date the tract 1719 and the 1729 date is probably a misprint. I am not sure how much of this detail is relevant.
Dudley Miles (
talk)
15:24, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
It does sound like we can reword "source" to be clearer: perhaps something like "the manuscript was initially brought to scholarly attention by the forger Iolo Morganwg"? We certainly seem to have other sources to say that the document existed, even if there are doubts as to whether it was genuine. UndercoverClassicistT·
C06:38, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
That is not quite right. There is independent evidence of the 1719 tract, but not of the original ancient document. I think you have been misled as my wording was inaccurate. I have changed it to "He is included in a list of abbots of
Llantwit said to have been in a "very decayed and rent" parchment recorded in a tract dated 1719, but as the tract was based on a transcript by the forger
Iolo Morganwg, scholars are uncertain whether the list was genuine." Does this look OK?
Dudley Miles (
talk)
13:02, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
According to a Canterbury list of Professions of Obedience: what are those?
The sources do not give any explanation. The term is frequently used in Wikipedia without explanation and I am not sure whether any is necessary.
Dudley Miles (
talk)
09:23, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Looking
here, and indeed at
Religious vows#In the Western Churches, it seems that these are formal promises by bishops to obey their superiors, particularly an archbishop. I think an explanation is always valuable, if only in a footnote: the FA standards require the text to be understandable to a broad audience, and I find it hard to believe that most of our readers would already know that term. UndercoverClassicistT·
C10:07, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The first is a catalogue description, the second relates to promises by monks to their abbots. Neither is a suitable reference. The source is a list of consecrations of bishops on the back of a profession roll. How about deleting "Professions...", and replacing with "According to a Canterbury Cathedral
roll"?
Dudley Miles (
talk)
15:24, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Three clerical witnesses to Cyfeilliog's charters also witnessed those of Bishop Nudd, and another three those of Bishop Cerennyr, probably because these bishops were Cyfeilliog's predecessors, and he inherited members of their episcopal households. Cerennyr was active over the whole of the south-east, suggesting that he had a superior status.: it's taking me a bit of work to get through why these two people are important here. So Cyfeilliog succeeded these men (both at the same time?) as bishop, but Cerennyr (did he come first or second?) seems to have been a bigger cheese than (his predecessor/successor?) Nudd? UndercoverClassicistT·
C22:15, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Looking at this again, Charles-Edwards comments are unclear. He says that they were Cyfeilliog's predecessors, but then he suggests that Nudd was the predecessor and Cerennyr a superior. I have deleted "these bishops were Cyfeilliog's predecessors, and".
Dudley Miles (
talk)
13:02, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Can we briefly introduce the ASC, in particular by date?
I prefer to leave out a date because it gets into complications which are irrelevant to the article. The different versions of the ASC were written at different times and give slightly different dates for Cyfeilliog's capture.
Dorothy Whitelock dates it 914 and her date is mostly accepted by Anglo-Saxon historians. Welsh historians sometimes date it 915, but on this point I prefer to rely on Anglo-Saxon specialists.
Dudley Miles (
talk)
13:02, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
granted Villa Caer Birran: can we add something like "the estate of Villa Caer Birran"? Was the "Villa" part of its name, though, or was it a villa/manor called Caer Birran?
I am slightly concerned that I can't find a hit for "Villa Caer Birran" anywhere online. On the other hand,
searching Google Books for "Caer Birran" gives a lot of hits for e.g. "Caer Birran, villa" or "village of Caer Birran" (villa is often used for the latter in medieval Latin). I assume
this, p. 626f, is the primary source, and that's pretty clear that we're talking about a village or at least an estate by the name of "Caer Birran". UndercoverClassicistT·
C10:07, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Well, yes, but that's a gazetteer (a tertiary source at best), and it doesn't say where it's got that name from, or indeed anything about the place except to give its name (and, incidentally, only a date much later than we're interested in). I'm struggling to track down Davies 1978 online; what does she say here? UndercoverClassicistT·
C21:54, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
She gives a translation of the charter: "King Arthfael gave Uilla Cair Birran, with four modii of land, to bishop Cyfeilliog; ?; c. 890, bounds."
Dudley Miles (
talk)
09:01, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Personally, I'd render that as "the village/manor of Caer Birran" (remembering that Latin doesn't really do capitalisation), but this is now the last outstanding issue and it would be wrong to ask you to edit a source, however trivially, on the say-so of an anonymous peanut-thrower on the internet. UndercoverClassicistT·
C10:15, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"in puro auro": lang template. The MoS would prefer that we lose the quote marks, but I can see the argument for them.
of the worth of his face, lengthwise and breadthwise: I may regret asking this, but how do you calculate the worth of someone's face?
This is not explained in the sources. I take it to mean covering his face in gold, but there is no information on how thick the gold is.
Dudley Miles (
talk)
09:23, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Well, indeed! From what I can find out about the term (see
here p. 471 and
here, it sounds as though "face-worth" meant "money paid to apologise for an insult" -- in other words, 'face' as in 'loss of face'. Again, I'm a bit uncomfortable leaning too heavily on an interpretation from a single source that doesn't seem to be corroborated by any others, and if anything seems at odds with them. Davies (p. 130) glosses "worth of face" as "compensation for insult". It's a tricky one: barring any additional sources, my preference would be to cut "lengthways and breadthways" as unimportant and/or unclear, and to explain "worth of his face" as meaning something like "in compensation for the loss of dignity". Certainly, I wouldn't leave in what seems to be an obscure legal term that will almost certainly mislead readers (neither Davies nor anyone else suggests that any skull-measuring went on here). UndercoverClassicistT·
C10:07, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
It is compensation for insult and the article says so. Sims-Williams quotes the charter: "pretium faciei suæ longitudine et latitudine in puro auro". He translates it "in length and breadth", whereas Davies has "lengthwise and breadthwis". I think it is interesting and well supported.
Dudley Miles (
talk)
13:02, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Is it absolutely clear in the translations whether they think "lengthwise and breadthways" refers to the face or the compensation? As I read it, it's most likely to a pretium (piece of compensation), which was made up entirely of gold (that is, "lengthwise and breadthwise of pure gold"), given in compensation for an insult. I'm struggling to make longitudine et latitudine modify faciei suae in a way that would sound right in Classical Latin, but medieval writers may have had different ways of doing things.UndercoverClassicistT·
C13:14, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I came across
this book, which does talk about a practice of demanding a chalice with a golden cover as broad as the Welsh king's face in recompense for insulting him. I'd be interested to see exactly what our sources have to say on this one, but I should probably withdraw my earlier objection -- it may not be the worth of his face so much as the size of it that was in question, but it does seem like what it says on the tin. UndercoverClassicistT·
C13:22, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
described as "a holy virgin": would that be a nun?
I assume so, but I have no source for clarifying. BTW the source says that she was seduced, which rather contradicts the description.
Dudley Miles (
talk)
09:23, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
In 914 Cyfeilliog was captured by the Vikings, and the event was recorded in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle: are we absolutely certain that the recording happened in 914 (not 915, for example?) If not, would lose the "and" and break the sentence instead.
It's not usual to give the season in "Summer 2000a" unless there's another one for e.g. the Winter. As written, the "a" makes it look as if there's going to be a Summer 2000b.
The 'easy' solve here would be to cut the word "Summer". Otherwise, you can use the |ref= parameter to give it the ID of "2000a" etc without having that in the date field. UndercoverClassicistT·
C10:07, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
A few replies done -- absolutely no quarrel with most, but there are a couple of tricky ones where I've made some tentative suggestions, or at least tried to make sure I've been clear as to the concern. UndercoverClassicistT·
C10:07, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Many thanks again for your very thorough review. The map is now in place if you would like to edit it. I think I have now replied to your points apart from endashes, which I am not sure how to deal with.
Dudley Miles (
talk)
09:01, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Support -- this has been an interesting and at times arcane process; I've enjoyed digging into cryptograms, face-worth and villas, and thank you for your patience with me while I've done so. By your leave, I'll sort the endashes myself, and maybe come back to the map at some point -- the first is a quick fix and the second absolutely optional. Very nice work. UndercoverClassicistT·
C10:17, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Were medieval English pounds equal in mass to modern pounds? If so, consider using the {convert} template to include the weight in kgs, in both the lead and body?
English pounds were 240 pennies. The Welsh did not have coinage in this period and I have been unable to find out what a Welsh pound was.
Dudley Miles (
talk)
10:05, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
In the biblio, link to: Peter Bartrum, John Blair (historian), Andrew F. Wareham?
You could consider expanding the lead to at least 3 paragraphs, I believe 4 is the FA criteria. I think there is enough material to do so, if not you could split the lead into small paragraphs.
For the alt texts, why have we just left placeholders? We have only two images so adding the alts for them will take you very little time.
An editor has deleted alt text on several articles I have edited on the ground that it repeats the information in the label. I understand that the alt text just makes readers see the label instead of the file name, and it should therefore just be a placeholder.
Dudley Miles (
talk)
10:05, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
So this is another MRT article! But what's more interesting here is that the station was closed for a while even when the line was opened (20 June 2003). The announcement to close the station was rather last minute and hence led to some discontentment among the few residents living in the area. There was some lobbying by residents, MPs and grassroots leaders to open the station, including a rare form of public protest by putting up "white elephant" cardboard cutouts when a minister visited the area. While the station was projected to open only in 2008 in tandem with housing developments, the government eventually relented and the station opened in January 2006. A curious little drama for the "white elephant" station.
ZKang123 (
talk)
08:13, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Limited comments by Nick-D
The material on the protests stands out for me, as it seems a bit under-developed. I have some comments:
The police response seems absurdly heavy handed. Google Scholar returns some references which seem to discuss this, including as an example of the limited opportunities Singaporeans have to protest
This scholarly book has some good discussion of the incident, noting that it was an example of the problems the Singapore government was experiencing at the time in terms of building the train line and (more significantly) responding to public concerns.
Very interesting. Though the PAP book essentially covers what I managed to find (given it's published by SPH Holdings, which definitely would have access to the news articles I've cited about the incident). I try not to detract too much focus from the station subject, and commentary of the protests in nature is something that can be explored in another potential article (
White Elephant saga, perhaps, as the PAP book calls it.) There's actually further context from another source (
p56) on how the slump in housing development of the Singapore northeast was due to the 1997 financial crisis.
Just keeping an archive of a cited source from the 2nd journal page
here. Not sure how to incorporate it, given the editor isn't really an authority on what determines a national political issue or not. I added a citation of what Chua Beng Huat remarked about the paranoia.--
ZKang123 (
talk)
11:42, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Located underneath Sengkang Central near the junction add a comma before "near"
The station will also serve Sengkang Grand Residencies – an upcoming integrated development, and a future bus interchange. remove the comma
Buangkok station is a designated Civil Defence shelter, and the two entrances of the station are enveloped by white Teflon sheets.. Id split these two sentences, like something like "Buangkok station is a designated Civil Defence shelter. The two entrances of the station are enveloped by white Teflon sheets."
history
The North East Line (NEL) project, which was first proposed in 1984,[1] received government approval in January 1996. ==> "The North East Line (NEL) project, first proposed in 1984,[1] received government approval in January 1996."
for redevelopment into an important new town. ==> "for redevelopment into a new town."
Just days before the opening of the NEL, on 17 June 2003, operator ==> "On 17 June 2003, just days before the opening of the NEL, operator"
along with the other stations, due to the lack remove the comma
open the following January, after SBS Transit remove the comma
required for them to sell the shirts, while also warning the organisers remove the comma
still traveled to the adjacent change "traveled" to "travelled", as in Singaporean English (i think)
details
The station is designed by Altoon + Porter Architects and 3HP Architects. change "is" to "was"; unless they're still designing the station
artwork
Leow drew parallels to the little dots and pixels of TV and computer images which blur out certain images add a comma before "which"
From September 1995 to May 1996,
Mariah Carey spent six months at number one on the US
Billboard Hot 100 chart with three singles from Daydream.
Columbia Records released "Forever" as the fourth US single and fifth overall. No other Carey song would surpass "Forever"'s peak of number two on the adult contemporary chart in the US until "
Oh Santa!" some 14 years later, perhaps showing how making this type of music did not last "forever" for her :P Thanks for any comments about the article,
Heartfox (
talk)
00:26, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Comments
""Forever" was related to Carey's past work." - I think maybe ""Forever" was compared to Carey's past work." would work better
In the reception section, there's a bit of a mixing of tenses. You have "Pitchfork writer Jamieson Cox said it shows" but "Cleveland.com writer Troy L. Smith said it paled"
"thought it was one of her best singles that did not reach number one" => "thought it was one of her best singles not to reach number one" --
ChrisTheDude (
talk)
20:32, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
This article is about My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy (2010), the fifth studio album by American rapper
Kanye West. It was recorded during West's exile in Hawaii after a period of controversy through 2009, resulting in a maximalist style with elements of his previous work. The album was met with widespread critical acclaim and also received much retrospective praise, including being ranked as one of the greatest albums of all time. West promoted the album with four singles that were top 40 hits in the United States and the film Runaway, while it reached the top 10 in countries like the US and Canada. The article
became a GA back in 2011, more than five years before I joined this site, though I have monitored it over the years and put in extensive work back in both 2022 for the first FAC and even more so for the multiple candidacies of 2024. The blocks to FAC on the last occasions were mainly the book sources not included, too much close phrasing and parts not reading smoothly, although I have put so much in to get this to another nomination around three months later for West's magnum ops! We can do this, West fans! --
K. Peake20:58, 4 July 2024 (UTC)reply
NØ
Oppose - Thanks for the invite. I thought this article did need a peer review while reading it the last time and am not sure the two edits made since have done enough to take care of the criteria 1a and other concerns. I would be glad to reconsider if other reviewers disagree and best of luck--NØ08:19, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"he supported My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy with four US Billboard Hot 100 top-40 singles, including "Power" and "All of the Lights"" - Four doesn't seem like too many so why not name all?
"musical short film, Runaway" - There is a MOS:SOB in this part.
"The album was an immediate and widespread critical success, with music critics lauding the maximalism, and was listed as the best album of 2010 in many publications' year-end lists." - Suggest split: "The album was an immediate and widespread critical success, and reviewers lauded the maximalism. It was listed as the best album of 2010 in many publications' year-end lists."
"It was awarded Best Rap Album at the 54th Annual Grammy Awards, alongside winning CD of the Year at the 2011 BET Hip Hop Awards." - This slightly makes it sound like the latter is less important so I would suggest: "It was awarded Best Rap Album at the 54th Annual Grammy Awards and CD of the Year at the 2011 BET Hip Hop Awards."
"My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy debuted at number one on the US Billboard 200, while reaching the top 10 in five other countries, including also topping the Canadian Albums Chart" - I would suggest the less convoluted "My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy debuted at number one in the US and Canada, and it reached the top 10 in some other countries". The Canada #1 position seems to be a debut too and the five countries claim is unsourced.
I thought the vote is more useful accompanied by actionable comments. This covers the lead section.--NØ16:14, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
My concern from last time about the critical reception section hasn't really been addressed. The second paragraph is still a collection of disparate opinions rather than focusing on one theme. All I am discerning as a reader from the critical reception section is that critics focused on how it was maximalist, but some were "more qualified in their praise". Okay, but is this really all that is evident? Is there nothing about production choices, vocals, guest appearances, lyrics, etc.? So far only reception of the genre is covered with the maximalism paragraph. There are 45 reviews indexed on Metacritic alone, but only 12 are given in the prose. I don't think 25% is good enough. Overall this section still does not feel like "a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature", so I will unfortunately have to oppose per
WP:FACR 1c.
Heartfox (
talk)
02:24, 6 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Heartfox: and
MaranoFan, I appreciate these comments and I've now made a
very large edit to make the reception have more of an interesting flow, I appreciate this may be seen as "one edit" but I took my time and absolute effort to smoothen this out rather than just adding a few sources in or something light like most singular edits, so please let me know now what your thoughts are. --
K. Peake09:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I'm still not convinced that 15 sources is a "a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature". I easily found a dozen reviews on ProQuest that are not on Metacritic without even doing an in-depth search. Have you gone through databases on
WP:TWL for reviews?
Heartfox (
talk)
20:27, 6 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Heartfox I am sorry but what do you think is the issue with a lack of having more than 15 sources or are you sure you are not reaching towards overciting here? In the case of the reception having a theme, how does the level of cohesiveness now carried not have a clear theme as to what the reviewers discussed? --
K. Peake06:42, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
It's not about overcite, it's that I highly doubt these are the only themes evident in the literature when it is clear a big portion of the literature has not been consulted. How can not one of the two dozen reviews on ProQuest and Newspapers.com be useful? Even ones that are freely online like
Billboard,
BBC Music,
The Telegraph ... how can these high-quality sources be ignored?? They are not cited anywhere in the article, much less the reception section. How can so much be so useless?
Heartfox (
talk)
07:34, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Oh I understand now - these sources would work more suitably for being part of the album's literature at large, not necessarily just under critical reception as that could become too extensive.
K. Peake10:26, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Heartfox: Thank you for the full context and I will be looking into these, however I'm on holiday for the next 5 nights so won't properly start until back. --
K. Peake07:25, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
100cellsman
Hello! This is more of a comment and not a stance on the article. I initially supported this article in the previous FAC review, but inspecting the article again and reading the FAC comments, I found personal issues with it. I think the prose of the Musical Styles and Lyrics and Themes sections has way too much of individual critics commenting on certain aspects of the album, sometimes in a He said-She said-They said kind of way. It feels like I'm reading the article from a critic's POV rather than an encyclopedic one. If it were me, I would reexamine the sources for what is generally agreed upon by the critics, and then condense them in the prose. I don't like to use every single statement from every single critic, and I usually rule out on what I think doesn't benefit the article. 웃OO04:30, 13 July 2024 (UTC)reply
This article is about
Carly Rae Jepsen's 2022 song "Talking to Yourself". Pride month might be over, but it is never a bad time to listen to a good old-fashioned Carly Rae Jepsen synth-pop song to boost one's mood. Built into an album ironically titled The Loneliest Time is this club-friendly track that still feels underrated even though critics raved about it briefly after its release. At least the Japanese liked it! Thanks a lot to everyone who will take the time to give their feedback here.- NØ18:00, 3 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Aoba47
The lead specifies that Benjamin Berger and Ryan Rabin co-wrote the song and make up the production team
Captain Cuts, but it does say that they actually produced the song.
The lead specifies that reviewers praised the production as "infectious and danceable", but I do not see that claim supported in the "Critical reception" section with an overview sentence or another sign that this was a view shared by multiple critics.
Siroky and Sanchez called the chorus catchy, and the others said something along the lines of calling it a hit or fit for the dancefloor. I have revised this sentence to a more general one, which hopefully takes care of it.
The
Billboard Japan chart placement should be discussed in the prose. I am not sure that a separate table and section are needed for a single chart placement, but even if it is kept, chart placements should be discussed in the prose. You could wait to see what other reviewers have to say about the inclusion of the table and section as it could be just something that I am noticing.
I would prefer to keep it.
That is understandable. My main concern was the chart placement not being discussed in the prose and that has now been addressed.
Aoba47 (
talk)
14:16, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I am uncertain about the "embarked" word choice in this part, (Embarked on
the Dedicated Tour). I think something like "While on
the Dedicated Tour" would be more suitable.
I am unsure about the word choice for this part, (creativity was stimulated by the
COVID-19 pandemic). It makes it seem like Jepsen was inspired directly by the pandemic itself rather than getting inspired after being stuck at home during
COVID-19 lockdowns. I think that this part could be worded better and more clearly.
The "endured bereavements" wording seems a tad over-dramatic, and I think could be replaced with something else.
For this part, (She worked with several producers and created more than 100 songs), I am not sure the "with several producers" part is necessary. It is generally assumed unless otherwise stated that when an artist works on music, they are working with producers and others. That and I find it to be vague as "several" could mean any number. I think just saying that "She created more than 100 songs" would be more concise and would not lose any information.
Is the day that Jepsen announced the album, (August 1, 2022), relevant for any reason? I believe that all the reader would need to know is when the album was released and that there were two other singles put out before its release.
I believe it helps put a timeline to when the album's production had definitely been completed and the tracklist chosen.
I am not fully convinced, but I do understand your point. It is not a major point for me so I would be okay with it staying in the article and it would not hold up my review in any way.
Aoba47 (
talk)
14:23, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Was there any further coverage on the music video or on the performances during the tour?
The music video does not have any coverage, considering there really isn't much going on in it. And the tour has shockingly received no reviews from reliable sources I could find.
That makes sense. That was the vibe that I got while reading the article, but I just wanted to confirm that with you. Thank you for the response.
Aoba47 (
talk)
14:21, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Would an audio sample fit in the "Composition and lyrics" section or would there be concerns that it would potentially overwhelm the section (or any other concerns in general about one)? I was only asking as I could see a strong justification for one illustrating the 1980s vibes that are being discussed here.
I would link
engineered,
mastered,
mixed, and
programmed to help with readers unfamiliar with that level of music jargon. I would link them in the prose and in the section with the credits.
For this part, (and influences of the
1980s), I would instead say (and influences from the
1980s music) to clarify where the link goes.
In the "Composition and lyrics" section, there are two sentences in a row that use "According to X critic". One of these instances should be revised to avoid repetition.
I was confused by this part, (the song does not specify if it was a serious relationship, friends-with-benefits, or just a crush). The article has consistently referred to the subject of this song as an "ex-lover" and that to me implies more than a crush.
This is a very good observation. There is a general critical consensus the song is about an ex so I have made this an attributed opinion.
I tried to look for any other citations for this song.
This source from
Attitude says that she performed this song at
Glastonbury Festival 2023. I am not sure if the source is appropriate for a FA so I would leave that up to you, and the citation does not go into much detail other than she performed it. Other than that (and again, I'd trust your judgement about it), it appears that you have covered everything else.
I hope that these comments are helpful. Once everything has been addressed, I will read through the article a few more times to make sure that I have not missed anything. Best of luck with this FAC, and I hope you are doing well.
Aoba47 (
talk)
22:35, 4 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Thank you for addressing everything. Great work with the article as always. I am always happy to see a song article up for a FAC. I support this FAC for promotion.
Aoba47 (
talk)
14:26, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
An accompanying music video for "Talking to Yourself" was released alongside it. -- I think this will work as "The music video for "Talking to Yourself" was released alongside it"
and performed it at Glastonbury Festival 2023 -- at the Glastonbury Festival 2023.
Chris DeVille of Stereogum thought it recalled the 1980s pastiche of Jepsen's albums Emotion (2015) and Dedicated (2019) -- does the reviewer mean the song drew parallels or is reminiscent of her previous albums 1980s theme? Maybe some wording change to "recalled"
Thanks for doing a prose review as well,
Pseud 14! I do not know if I will be working on any other Jepsen articles, but this song was an immediate standout to me. I have fixed the issues along with some copyedits.--NØ18:16, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"praised its production as catchy and commented on the lyrics" - "commented on" is a bit vague and doesn't really convey whether the comments were positive or negative. Possible to reword to give a tiny bit more detail?
"lockdowns following the COVID-19 pandemic" => "lockdowns during the COVID-19 pandemic"
"unable to join her family" => "being unable to join her family"
The openings of the three paragraphs under "Composition and lyrics" are all very similar - any way to reword?
"PopMatters's Jeffrey Davies" - while not technically wrong, this looks a bit odd with the "s's" and the second s not being italic. Maybe "Jeffrey Davies of PopMatters".......?
"described it as a sanguine track and "dance-pop anthem"" => "described it as a sanguine track and a "dance-pop anthem""
"and honed it among Jepsen's most high-energy songs" - I don't think "honed" is the right word here at all. Maybe "named"?
"using some diverting production brandishes" - "brandish" isn't a noun, so this doesn't work. I think maybe you mean "using some diverting production flourishes" --
ChrisTheDude (
talk)
21:16, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Seems like sources are consistently formatted and are mostly dedicated magazines. I wonder if somewhere there is a list of reliable magazines on music topics. Spotcheck upon request.
Jo-Jo Eumerus (
talk)
08:22, 13 July 2024 (UTC)reply
File:Lise_Meitner_(1878-1968),_lecturing_at_Catholic_University,_Washington,_D.C.,_1946.jpg: is a more specific tag available? Ditto File:Lise_Meitner_standing_at_meeting_with_Arthur_H._Compton_and_Katherine_Cornell.jpg
File:Lise_Meitner12.jpg: source link is dead; when and where was this first published and what is the author's date of death? Ditto File:Otto_Hahn_und_Lise_Meitner.jpg
File:Hahn_and_Meitner_in_1912.jpg: when and where was this first published?
In a commemorative brochure for the opening of the KWI in 1912. A copy was in Otto Hahn's papers, and is now in the Smithsonian. The Max Planck also has a copy.
Hawkeye7(discuss)03:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)reply
File:Chemist_Lise_Meitner_with_students.jpg: the source seems to indicate this is not a NRC work?
She was particularly inspired by Boltzmann, and was said to often speak with contagious enthusiasm of his lectures. I'm not sure about "contagious" here, and it should be "about" rather than "of"
Meitner and Hahn in their laboratory, in 1913. When a colleague she did not recognise said that they had met before, Meitner replied: "You probably mistake me for Professor Hahn. Image caption is confusing
of which he gave ten per cent to Meitner. Is this %?
MOS:PERCENT: "The body of non-scientific/non-technical articles may use either the % symbol or the word(s) percent (American English) or per cent (British English)"
In 1945 the Nobel Committee for Chemistry in Sweden that selected the Nobel Prize in Chemistry decided to award that prize solely to Hahn: Colon should be a full stop
Women were not allowed to attend public institutions of higher education in Vienna until 1897, and she completed her final year of school in 1892 I think this would make more sense with the clauses reversed, and moved after the following sentence; this way, it'd flow naturally into the "only career available" part.
"Circumspect" seems like a bit of an obscure word here. Also "egalitarian" is a bit confusing - I know we're talking about how Hahn drank a lot of Respect Women Juice, but it's phrased confusingly in this portion.
Germany was very formal society at the time. Oppenheimer, for example, once made the mistake of addressing
Arnold Sommerfeld as "Professor" instead of "
Geheimrat". Removed. I need to strike the right note here. For a man of his time, Hahn was progressive in his attitudes towards women.
Hawkeye7(discuss)21:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Later that year, perhaps fearing that Meitner was in financial difficulties and might return to Vienna, since her father had died in 1910, Planck appointed her his assistant at the Institute for Theoretical Physics in the Friedrich Wilhelm University I think it might be best to remove the "since her father had died" clause. Maybe split it up; "Meitner may have entered financial difficulties after the death of her father in 1910. Possibly due to this, Planck appointed her..."
You reference prices in marks a lot, but a modern reader has no context. Is there a way we can have conversions? There's likely a template for the mark. (Tho these might be best as efns after each quote rather than as in-line text)
This isn't really a prose thing, but I notice a paucity of images in the middle sections. The diagram of the
Auger effect might be good at the beginning of the Beta Radiation section. More importantly, there's gotta be something that fits for the Nazi Germany, Transmutation, and Nobel Prize for nuclear fission sections, right?
The exhibition table being left-aligned creates a weird break in the text in combination with the massive Frisch quote. Might be better to right-align it.
Moreover; the Frisch quote is nice, but it is massive. Could there be a way to pare it down a bit more with a (...) or two?
The bust of Meitner image is a bit low-res and hard to make out. What about "file:Lise Meitner Denkmal vor dem Lise-Meitner-Wohnheim in Kaiserslautern2.jpg"? Bit more photogenic.
Why have we not used the sources in the Further Reading section in the article? If they don't have anything unique, I would suggest removing them; if they do, then you can always include them in the biblio and cite them.
This article is about the unicorn of the sea, a one of a kind marine mammal. It has a long, protruding left-sided canine tooth or tusk that can grow to a whopping 3 meters or 9.8 feet. I have addressed every concern brought up in its last nomination, and I believe it is ready. In order to spare the previous reviewers some inconvenience, I would appreciate it if you could refrain from pinging them. I don't have much to say, so I hope you enjoy the read.
WolverineXI(
talk to me)17:00, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Drive-by comment
Scientists have long speculated that Vikings collected tusks washed ashore on beaches of Greenland and surrounding areas – I remember that I commented on this very sentence in multiple of the previous FA nominations and peer reviews of this article. Which source is supporting this? --
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
17:20, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you mix something up here? The source seems to be the first to propose that Vikings got them from the shores of Greenland, so "scientists have long speculated" seems wrong. According to that source, the older sources suggested that narwhal tusks were washed ashore in Europe (without necessarily involving the Vikings, I think), which is a quite different story. --
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
18:12, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
You don't seem to understand; Europe and Greenland beaches are two separate hypotheses. Don't mix them. And does the source say that Vikings collected them on European beaches? I don't think so.
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
18:47, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
You did not fix it, you just reverted back to the old version. Again: The sentence is, in this form, not supported by the source, and you are mixing two separate hypotheses.
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
19:25, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
That's not how I understood it. The first (outdated) hypothesis is that tusks were washed ashore in Europe. No vikings. No Norsemen. (What's the difference between vikings and norsemen btw?, why do you give both names?) Anyways, I think you should read the source again carefully.
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
19:55, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
We don't use the first hypothesis since they are not specific about it. The difference between Vikings and Norsemen is that Vikings are a more specific group of Norsemen (i.e. they are a more aggressive, attacking group). All Vikings are Norsemen, but the opposite is not true.
WolverineXI(
talk to me)20:01, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
A minor issue is that you write "was later disproven", but I don't think you can actually "disprove" such a hypothesis; better write "is now considered to be unlikely" or similar (the source itself does not use a stronger wording too). --
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
18:11, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The article was withdrawn from FAC on 17 June; the sum total of the changes since is
here. It must admit that I don't see all that much, outside the final few paragraphs, and there I'm not sure that the changes represent improvements. Other reviewers may form their own opinions, of course. I think it is also worth restating that the major issue in the last FAC was verifiability; a few facts and sources have been removed or changed in this series of edits, but the majority seems to remain as it was last time around. Wolverine XI, less than two weeks ago you were advised to take a step away from the article, work on some other topics, and then come at it again when you were ready to give it an overhaul with fresh eyes: do you think you've done that? UndercoverClassicistT·
C18:41, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I doubt it’s particularly hidden in my comments that I don’t think the article is ready yet, though I think it would only be fair to let others have their say before formally chiming in as much. There are at least two people in the queue ahead of me: I might look at a full review once they’ve been through, if it looks as if that would be helpful. UndercoverClassicistT·
C16:46, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
UndercoverClassicist: You viewed the article at the wrong time as I was copyediting the lead (and some sections) to see what works. Sorry to bug you, but can you be specific about "I doubt it’s particularly hidden in my comments that I don’t think the article is ready yet". That comment alone doesn't say much, so more details are appreciated.
WolverineXI(
talk to me)17:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Still not a full review, but you'll notice above that I said verifiability was a concern at the last PR, and that I could not see evidence of substantial movement in this regard. I have just made three quick spot-checks on three sources. These are made complicated by the fact that none of the references provides page numbers: while these are not strictly required for FA, they do make everyone's life easier, and are overwhelmingly the norm.
Note 6 (One of the earliest illustrations of the species is a 1555 drawing by Olaus Magnus depicting a fish-like creature with a horn on its forehead; Magnus later called it "Monocerote"): the article mentions Magnus in the context of drawing unicorns (the horsey type), but I cannot find anything about this specific 1555 drawing, the name "Monocerote" (except for horsey unicorns), or any mention of narwhals at all in the article. Being even more pedantic, monocerote is in the ablative case: we would give the noun as monoceros.
Notes 11 and 12 (The Monodontidae are distinguished by their pronounced melons (acoustic sensory organs), short snouts and the absence of a true dorsal fin.: note 11 mentions a beak-like snout, but not that it is short, and does not mention anything about dorsal fins. It does, however, mention that Monodontidae are unique among mammals in having only a single nostril, which seems a strange omission from our own article, given how unusual it is. I can't find anything about any of this material in note 12: I assume that's only supporting the previous bit about narwhals and belugas being the only surviving members of the family?
Note 28: We have the suggestion that the dorsal ridge makes swimming under ice easier; the article does not say this, but rather that it reduces the chance of injuring the dorsal fin/ridge while swimming close to ice. I cannot find anything about to reduce surface area and heat loss in the article.
Some of this might simply be down to the fact that, without page numbers, it's much harder to find the part of the sources that you're drawing attention to, but three failures to verify from three checks doesn't reassure me much when verifiability was such an important factor behind the decision not to promote last time. UndercoverClassicistT·
C22:42, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Note that this contradicts the "later called it", because the name is used right there in the original. I suppose keeping the Bamforth ref around is useful to source the statement about it being one of the first depictions, but otherwise this statement should rather follow the content of Magnus' work. --Elmidae (
talk ·
contribs)
11:10, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
In regards to cite 28. Not having a dorsal fin that could be injured by ice does make swimming under ice easier. It's appropriate paraphrasing stating the same thing.
LittleJerry (
talk)
03:47, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I'm not convinced it is a paraphrase, so much as a slightly different concept. Medieval knights wore heavy armour: that didn't make charging at the enemy any easier (in fact, it made it rather more difficult), but it did make it a lot safer. Likewise, I don't think we'd say that builders on tall structures wear safety ropes to make their jobs easier. Admittedly, it's easily fixed. UndercoverClassicistT·
C10:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Cite 6: I tried to look for the original paper but couldn't find it, so I went with this one. In the source I originally provided, it said in which they are found they have surveyed, yet to describe the various monocerotes.
Usage here, referring to the single species, must however be "Monoceros" - I have corrected that. The usage in the plate caption is the
ablative with a preposition, as UndercoverClassicist noted, and "monocerotes" is the plural. You can see the standard use of singular "monoceros" in the Latin text following the plate (same and following page). --Elmidae (
talk ·
contribs)
16:28, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Cite 11 and 12: Cite 11 actually talks about the dorsal fin on p. 200. I'm not sure where it says "beak-like" snout and "single nostril". I now remember what happened with cite 12; I mixed up my references and instead of citing Walker's marine mammals I cited Mammal Species of the World: A Taxonomic and Geographic Reference, hence the reason page numbers were not provided.
Cite 28: Facilitated movement through ice is already supported. For surface area and heat loss If the narwhal swam flat against the bottom with its dorsal side up, it would have the advantage of having its mouth closer to benthic prey than if it were upside-down.
That doesn’t seem to be remotely about heat loss - it’s saying that swimming along the bottom lets it get its mouth closer to bottom-dwelling creatures that it wants to eat. UndercoverClassicistT·
C21:53, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The nominator has asked me to comment, and I hope to do so. I am having surgery on my right hand tomorrow, leaving me strapped up, and am not sure how quickly I shall be able to type properly after that, but will do what I can on or after Friday. Tim riley talk13:06, 3 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Thank you, and best of luck with your hand surgery.
WolverineXI(
talk to me) 13:18, 3 July 2024
Not much from me. This is a crackingly good article. Very minor points:
Duplicate links – no longer classed as a mortal sin in Wikipedia, but I'm not sure that we need the duplicate links to dorsal fin, pack ice, blubber (twice), melon, Northern Hudson, Eclipse Sound, Eastern Baffin Bay, Svalbard, whale meat, and Muktuk,
"The functions of the narwhal tusk have been debated, and include feeding …" – "include" seems a bit unequivocal for something that is debated. Perhaps "may include"?
"During the summer, they eat mostly Arctic cod and Greenland halibut, with other fish such as polar cod" – our WP article on
Arctogadus says that Arctic and polar cod are one and the same, and if that's correct then the latter are not "other fish"
"Printed for H.M. Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode" – we customarily name the publisher but not the printer. The publisher was Her Majesty's Stationery Office (for whom I worked for twelve years, though not in 1891).
Happy to support. The article seems to my layman's eye to be comprehensive and balanced; it is amply and widely sourced, well illustrated and surprisingly readable for such a specialist topic – I thoroughly enjoyed it and look forward to seeing it on our front page. Tim riley talk14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"The narwhal is distinguished by its stocky body, short, blunt snout, small flippers and convex-shaped tail flukes" - surely it is most distinguished by its tusk......?
"The functions of the narwhal tusk have been debated, and include feeding, combat, sexual selection and acoustic sensory" - if the functions have been debated maybe say "The functions of the narwhal tusk have been debated, and may include feeding, combat, sexual selection and acoustic sensory"
"of eastern United States" => "of the eastern United States". However, as the US didn't exist in the Pliocene era, maybe reword to something like "what is now the eastern United States"?
The first edition of the Tour de France Femmes (a cycling race) – held in 2022 after years of campaigning for a women's Tour de France race.
This is a second attempt (nominated before, and I didn't get to fixing things in time – these have now been resolved). The article is a GA and has been through the WP:GOCE process. Wish me luck!
Turini2 (
talk)
08:40, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
As noted above, I copyedited the article in Nov 2023 (
copyedited version) and may be biased toward that version.
I'm still not a fan of the wide infobox; the map is not terribly legible, so I'm not sure the point of having it take up that much room.
I feel that the five-paragraph lead could probably be consolidated to two or three paragraphs for an article of this size. My copyedit version handled it after the lead paragraph as a results-oriented summary, putting the winners first as that's the most important result; I can see from the previous FAC review that some other editors prefer a chronological summary of the race. Can't say that I agree, but in any case it should be simpler and more concise.
The race would take place prior to the final stage of the men's race in Paris. If it can be confirmed to have happened, use past tense.
and not being hard enough for the professional peloton Not being difficult enough or challenging enough.
pushed for La Course to evolve into a multi day stage race, with former cyclist & commentator multi-stage, cyclist and commentator.
As a matter of completeness, should there be a brief mention of how this race affected the
second and
third editions of the race?
Tweaks made. I also prefer your version of the lead – I expanded it slightly to accommodate the request for a chronological telling of the race following the last FAC review. In terms of the infobox, it's following the pattern of other Tour de France articles (e.g. FA
2012 Tour de France). Thanks for your help!
Turini2 (
talk)
07:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Gog the Mild
Recusing to review.
The lead is IMO a little long in proportion to the article, and
MOS:LEADLENGTH suggests it should consist of "One or two paragraphs".
"French rider Jeannie Longo won the 1987, 1988 and 1989 editions of the race, gaining fame in the process". This seems a little random. A factoid about one rider dropped into the history of the race.
Would I be correct in assuming that no women's race took place in 2010, 2011, 2012, nor 2013? If so, perhaps this could be stated.
"with sponsors welcoming the visibility of the Champs-Élysées". How is this relevant to the article?
In the lead, I have struggled with including all relevant information requested while keeping the length. Pointers welcome!
The lead is not supposed to include all relevant information, it is intended to briefly summarise the article. I have put a draft of a slimmed down version on the talk page. See what you think. Note that it is not normal to include citations in the lead. (Nor the infobox.) As a summary, anything in the lead will be covered more fully in the main article, where it will be cited in more detail.
Have rewritten the lead, now much shorter.
Jeannie Longo is a reasonably famous sportswoman, particularly in France - happy to remove, but thought a useful (and referenced) historical tidbit.
Almost the definition of things not to include. Either expand the mention to explain why and how Longo particularly influenced the development of the Tour de France Femmes - assuming she did - or take it out.
Removed.
Realistically, the last "Tour de France Féminin" was in 1989 - the organisers of the men's race didn't allow them to use their trademark. Hence the "although the name of the event changed several times" phrasing. There were other
ersatz women's races that tried to be a ""Tour de France Féminin" - e.g.
La Route de France. It's complicated!
That's why we FAC nominators get the big bucks! (Try explaining 3rd century BC naval tactics.) from whenever you start, if there was some sort of proto-TdFF you need to mention briefly it, if there wasn't you need to say so, if it was complicated you need to briefly explain the nature of the complication. What you do, you have done well, but what seem to be gaps stand out.
Have rephrased and reworded, to make clearer.
Women's cycling historically has not been on live TV or well supported commercially - sources back up that sponsors of teams were very happy to be "sharing the stage" with the Tour de France. Again, happy to remove or rephrase.
I meant that thee and me might understand the connection between the TdF and the visibility of the Champs-Élysées, but a non-aficionado will have no idea what you are talking about. And as an encyclopedia we are supposed to be explaining things for a general audience.
Have reworded, and added a slight bit to the background.
"and not being challenging enough for the professional peloton". What is "the professional peloton"? And why "the" and not 'a'?
Piped to clarify
"Riders and campaigners pushed for La Course to evolve into a multi-stage race, cyclist & commentator Joanna Rowsell stating". The comma should be either a full stop or a semi colon.
Fixed
"We need mountain climbs, flat stages, time trials and a Champs-Elysees finish". Reading this made me realise that the article just assumes that the reader is aware of the TdF for men to quite a detailed level. I think you need to explain it somewhere near the start of Background, including what all of these things are and touching on the different jerseys. I assume that you can steal most of this from the TdF article. Having just reread, I am eg unsure from the article whether La Course by Le Tour de France was a stage race or not. Or what a stage is.
I've added a sentence on what the Tour de France is at the start of Background... I note that FA
2012 Tour de France does not provide this level of background information. Have tweaked things to clarify.
"Pushing back on criticism". "on" → 'at'.
Fixed
Did la Course by Le Tour de France occur in each year from 2013 to 2021?
Rephrased
"with Anna van der Breggen stating ... and Cecilie Uttrup Ludwig stating ..." Who are these two that a reader might care about their opinions? And synonym time, can we avoid two times "stating".
Clarified
I am going to pause here. I think I have given you a fair bit to think about, come back on and/or get on with and I would like to get this foundation stage of the article sorted before moving on to the detail.
Gog the Mild (
talk)
16:56, 3 July 2024 (UTC)reply
They are all own works from wikimedia users and all licensed under Creative Commons. All images are relevant to the article. The image "2019-10-26 14-54-37 planche-des-belles-filles.jpg" lacks an alt text but the others have alt texts. All images have captions. The caption The final stage of the race finished at the hors catégorie (English: beyond category) La Super Planche des Belles Filles climb needs to end with a period as it is a full sentence. I suggest removing the expression "the hors catégorie (English: beyond category)" because readers may not be familiar with this technical term, the translation in parenthesis is not helpful, and the information is not essential to understand the image. The caption Large crowds greeted the Tour
also needs to end with a period.
Phlsph7 (
talk)
10:05, 6 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The
Battle of Tinian isn't as well known as
Battle of Saipan, but it was an important part of the Mariana Islands campaign of World War II. It was mostly a US Marines show, but the other services were heavily involved. The battle is a good case study of the process of command decision making. The island became an important base for B-29 bombers and in August 1945 the
atomic bombing missions were launched from there, which is what it is best known for today, if at all. There is plenty written about it though, and the article could have gone much deeper into the fighting.
Hawkeye7(discuss)00:23, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"the Combined Chiefs of Staff". Perhaps 'the US and British Combined Chiefs of Staff' to fill in the blanks for readers not familiar with the nomenclature of the higher echelons during WWII?
"Tinian lay too close to Saipan to allow it to be bypassed and remain in Japanese hands. The 9,000-strong Japanese garrison was eliminated, and the island joined Saipan and Guam as a base for Boeing B-29 Superfortress bombers" is out of chronological order and repeats what is given in more detail later. Suggest deleting.
"known as the Orange plans ... along the lines envisaged in the Orange Plan". Plural or singular?
Plural. Plans were continually updated. There were many variants, such as Orange-Black (Japan + Germany) and Orange-Red (Japan + the UK).
Hawkeye7(discuss)21:46, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"By 10 August, Japanese casualties included 404 taken prisoner and 5,745 dead that were buried by the Americans." This leaves some 2,850 unaccounted for. Do any of the sources suggest how they might be accounted?
It may be worth adding that. If only to clarify that while the battle was over all resistance was not, hence the "Mopping up" section.
When the Japanese forces were reduced to the point where they were no longer considered a threat to the West Coast of the United States, the American commander would declare the island "secure", and "mopping up" operations would begin. In some cases, more Japanese were killed during mopping up than in the battle. Stan Savige (on Bougainville) and Bob Eichelberger (on Leyte) reported that they had killed more Japanese than G-2 reported were present in the first place, but there were still plenty more.
Hawkeye7(discuss)01:02, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The paragraph starting "Tinian was considered a target from the outset ..." It would be helpful to state here somewhere the distance between the two islands.
" On 12 March, the Joint Chiefs of Staff directed Nimitz to neutralize Truk and occupy the Mariana Islands, with a target date of 15 June ... With the conclusion of the Battle of Saipan on 9 July, preparations began for the attack on Tinian." Perhaps a sentence or two on the battle of Saipan?
In the lead the battle ends on 2 August ("Resistance continued through 2 August"), in the infobox on 1 August.
There are several cases where
false precision has been introduced - eg 100 feet given as 30.5 m or 1/2 mile as 0.80 km - which could do with reviewing.
I was part of the A Class review at WPMH and found the article to be a great read on an expansive topic. I have some minor suggestions which you could look into,
Hawkeye7:
Since the 3 units of the US Army were all part of the V Amphibious, perhaps you could wrap these up into a {tree list}?
When I looked at the infobox image, I thought it was the only one which didn't have alt text. To my surprise, none of the images have alt texts. Why so? As an aside, many of the images are good ones which could go FP as Adam said, you should look into co-nominating some of them.
Also, how much deeper could we have gone into the fighting? Would it have been day by day details or something more substantial? I ask because that would impact the comprehensiveness.
Yes, into the day-to-day fighting in greater depth. There is already a
subarticle on base development. The article currently has 8,350 words, and going into the fighting in much greater detail would add a great deal more. I feared that there would be complaints that the article was
WP:TOOBIG.
Hawkeye7(discuss)19:30, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
If you have the time, I would appreciate if you could look into my recent FA nom, linked
here.
In truth, Wrath of the Darkhul King is a rather unremarkable video game. It has all the standard elements of a typical
platformer and
action games—so a lot of jumping around, beating up enemies, and solving rudimentary puzzles—but this time, it is told with a generic Buffy the Vampire Slayer story, in which
Buffy Summers must yet again stop an
apocalyptic event. The game received negative reviews and fell into obscurity, even for Buffy fans. Despite this, I still enjoyed working on this article. As always, any comments would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.
Aoba47 (
talk)
00:50, 30 June 2024 (UTC)reply
No need to apologise, this seems an appropriate notification to editors whom you could reasonably assume to have some interest in the nomination.
Gog the Mild (
talk)
10:26, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I'm happy to support again. I note that there's some quite extensive discussion of Buffy video games in
this recent open access book, but it seems to focus on the 2002 game, only mentioning this one in passing. I'm honestly surprised there's not more academic work mentioning this game, but I suppose that just indicates how 'unremarkable' it is. (It looks like it's
never been mentioned in the
Buffyology journal Slayage, for example.)
Josh Milburn (
talk)
11:46, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Thank you for the support and for the links. I hope that my nomination statement does not come across as flippant. I was trying to think of a solid way to discuss this game, and this was the best I could think of at the time. I was also surprised that this game did not receive more scholarly attention. Buffy is a big draw for research, and I could see this game fitting into larger papers on the Buffy video games as a whole or
licensed games in that time period. From my understanding (and I could be wrong as I am admittedly not active in fandoms and such), it seems that only
the 2002 game and
Chaos Bleeds are the only Buffy games that are really remembered or discussed.
Aoba47 (
talk)
17:15, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Image review (pass)
The images are licensed appropriately, include alt text, and provide context where appropriate.
Use of non-free images in the Gameplay section seems to be justified and (IMO) provides illustrative reference to better aid readers about the game.
Pseud 14 (
talk)
16:50, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Thank you for the image review. Take as much time as you need for a prose review as there is absolutely no rush.
Aoba47 (
talk)
17:16, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
NØ
"THQ produced Wrath of the Darkhul King in a publishing agreement with Fox Interactive, and chose Natsume as the developers because they had been working together since 1999." - There is a
WP:CINS issue with this sentence.
"Obstacles include pendulums, falling rocks, unstable platforms, electrified water, and pits with spikes; in certain areas, the player must punch or kick down walls to continue further" could benefit from a sentence split where the semicolon is.
@
MaranoFan: Thank you for the kind words and for your comments. I believe that I have addressed everything, but let me know if there is anything else that I can do to improve the article further. I hope you are having a good start to your week.
Aoba47 (
talk)
15:05, 2 July 2024 (UTC)reply
You are welcome. Apologies for retroactively adding a comment to my review, but I noticed that Craig Harris is cited after the sentence about Griffiths finding the gameplay formulaic.--NØ20:19, 4 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The lead seems over long for a relatively short article, and
MOS:LEADLENGTH suggests it should consist of "One or two paragraphs".
Thank you for the suggestion. I honestly forget about this aspect of the lead. I have condensed the lead into two paragraphs. Let me know if any further work would be needed.
Aoba47 (
talk)
14:50, 4 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Neat work.
"based on the supernatural series Buffy the Vampire Slayer." Maybe 'based on the supernatural television series Buffy the Vampire Slayer'?
Added. I think that I must have somehow accidentally deleted "television" when adding the "supernatural" part in.
Aoba47 (
talk)
14:50, 4 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"Natsume presented Buffy as an aspirational character to their young audience." Who does "their" refer to? Natsume?
"Their" does refer to Natsume. I have changed it to "the company's" to hopefully be clearer, but let me know if another change would be better.
Aoba47 (
talk)
14:50, 4 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Gog the Mild: Thank you for your review. I believe that I have addressed everything, but please let me know if I have missed something (or a change somehow did not save properly) or if there are any further areas that would benefit from revision. I hope you are having a wonderful week so far, and thank you again for your help.
Aoba47 (
talk)
14:50, 4 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Lead: " For the month of its release, the game was in the top ten most-ordered games on Amazon."; article: " For two weeks that month, it was in the top ten most-ordered games on Amazon." The lead doesn't seem to be reflecting what the article says here.
Thank you for catching this. I must have accidentally introduced this mistake while rewriting the article. I have revised it to clarify that it was the most-ordered for only two weeks, not for an entire month.
Aoba47 (
talk)
19:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"The game was released on June 24 in North America and on June 27 in the European Union. For two weeks that month, it was in the top ten most-ordered games on Amazon." But there wasn't two weeks left in "that month" (June) after the release dates. (If pre-orders are included, I think you should explicitly say so.
I have revised this part to specify that these lists were for the week of X date. Since the first list was created on June 22, 2003, I would assume pre-orders must have been included, but I cannot say for certain. The citation does not explicitly mention pre-orders anywhere so I could not include that in the article as this information cannot be verified in the source. All the citations do is source the information to Amazon.com without any further clarification. Given the issue with the information, I could remove this part entirely. I cannot find this information in any other source. I did try to look up information on how Amazon collects this information, but it likely changed over the years since this game's releases. What are your thoughts on it? I wanted to get your opinion on it first as I could just be missing something obvious.
Aoba47 (
talk)
20:04, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Gog the Mild: Thank you for bringing both of these points to my attention. I have revised the issue with the lead, and although I have done a small copy-edit to the issue in the article, I am not entirely sure how to proceed as the citations doe not go further into how these numbers were calculated (i.e. whether or not pre-orders were included). Given the lack of clarity, I would be okay with removing this part, but if there are any other paths forward, then I would be open to any alternative ideas.
Aoba47 (
talk)
19:52, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Ho, hum. As you say, an odd one. I think that it is information which is worth including. If the sources aren't as helpful as we would like, we just have to do what we can with them. How you have thinks now seems to me to both read well and reflect the source. So I am happy to support.
Gog the Mild (
talk)
20:04, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Thank you for the support and for your help. Hopefully, I did not cause any edit conflicts while I was trying to streamline my replies. Apologies for that. I hope you have a great weekend.
Aoba47 (
talk)
20:06, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Heartfox
"Because of rules placed on developing GBA games, Natsume could only have four bosses in the game" → do we know what these rules are/can there be a note added here?
Heartfox (
talk)
04:59, 6 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Heartfox: Thank you for the question. Unfortunately, I could not find any further information about this. When I tried looking for more sources on this, I only found information about other types of restrictions or limits for the GBA hardware. Upon further reflection, I am a bit skeptical about this claim as another GBA game, Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories, had far more than four bosses, but I could also see different rules being applied to different companies and types of games. I have revised this sentence to attribute as something Natsume said themselves. Let me know if anything further should be done with this part.
Aoba47 (
talk)
16:34, 6 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Sorry, but I am taking a small break from reviewing. When I start doing reviews again, I will make sure to prioritize either the peer review or FAC (depending on what stage it is in at that point). Apologies again.
Aoba47 (
talk)
17:31, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Aoba47, ok, there's nothing off with the sourcing and ref formatting, and I'm very confident that the game citations and the press releases are fine per
WP:ABOUTSELF as they're not contentious. Support on source review. — lunaeclipse(
talk)13:52, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Thank you for your help, and apologies again for not being able to help with your peer review. Best of luck with it.
Aoba47 (
talk)
13:54, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Pseud 14
The artists were Tomoki Hamuro, Masashi Kudo, and Chie Yoshida -- just for context, these are visual artists who designed the game? Or are they voice artists/actors? Since the following statement mentions "they" were directed by... (Although it does mention in a section that dialogues were limited, so I'm assuming the former)
That is a good question so thank you for bringing it up. The "artists" wording is quite vague so I can understand how that is confusing. The game does not really feature voice acting, aside from grunts and the like. I have explicitly clarified that these individuals are visual artists in the prose.
Aoba47 (
talk)
17:36, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
on June 27 in the European Union -- would it be better just to say Europe?
Agreed. To be completely honest, I am not sure why I used "the European Union" here rather than just "Europe". I looked through the source again to see if it specified just that area, and since it did not, I have revised the prose accordingly.
Aoba47 (
talk)
17:36, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The website calculated a 44/100 score based upon 16 reviews. -- Perhaps this can be clarified as "The website calculated a weighted average score of 44 out of 100 from 16 critic reviews."
Your wording is much better. I think I was trying to be concise, but it is better to be clear so readers can understand what is being said.
Aoba47 (
talk)
17:36, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Pseud 14: Thank you for your comments. I believe that I have addressed everything, but please let me know if I have missed anything or if there is anything else that could be improved. I hope you are having a good weekend so far.
Aoba47 (
talk)
17:36, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Following the release of Worlds,
Porter Robinson felt pressured to release a follow-up album with a similar sound, but couldn't come up with anything. His idea, then, was to break expectations and change his musical style completely, just as he had done with Worlds. This resulted in the Virtual Self alias and its self-titled EP, where he used the early 2000s as his main inspiration for visuals and sound. Following the recent promotion of Worlds, here is another article of one of his albums that I believe is ready for FAC. Thank you! Skyshiftertalk01:59, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I'm skeptical of the inclusion of a
Forbes contributor article here. FAC is the kind of place where high quality sources are more expected. Can you replace it with another source?
There's a review at
Sputnikmusic you forgot to include in the Reception section.
Indeed I haven't seen this review, but I don't think Sputnikmusic is high-quality enough for an FA. There was some discussion a while ago about how anyone could become a staff member there. Skyshiftertalk18:32, 2 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"an idea Robinson became "obsessed" with.[1][2][3]" → why are there three refs for 1 quote? Also I don't really see why "obsessed" is such a useful quotation that it can't be paraphrased or omitted from the lead
I would not use the music ratings template to display only one review as this seems a little undue weight. There should be at least a minimum of 2 reviews in the table.
I don't see how this is undue weight. The album only received one rating (apart from the Sputnikmusic one which I don't think is considered high-quality for an FA), so only one rating is included. If the album had received two ratings, there would be two in the table, and no table if zero ratings. This seems fine. Skyshiftertalk16:28, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Some paragraphs are missing introductory sentences
There are 9 quotes vs. 3 sources in the first paragraph of the critical reception section. Stuff like "it's just a shame some of the tracks don't quite hit the mark for our money" could be easily paraphrased.
Honestly two sentences and a two-row table that repeats the sentences isn't worthy of its own section. I would add the sentences as a paragraph in the promotion and release section.
In addition to these examples overall the article suffers from
WP:OVERQUOTE and sometimes informal/unengaging prose. I'm just bombarded with so much info in the inspiration section I don't know what to focus on. There needs to be less quotation so it can be more understandable. Oppose per
WP:FACR 1a. Sorry,
Heartfox (
talk)
07:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
One of the most exciting games in American soccer history, which pitted
Hollywood money against a
blue-collar underdog, and broke several records (and one leg) in 130+ minutes of action. Most of this article was written in the days before and after the game, but has undergone a fair amount of changes through a GAN last year and a more recent GOCE copyedit. I believe it is my finest match article so far of the four MLS Cup articles I have sent to FAC. SounderBruce00:32, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
"Both clubs finished the regular season atop the Supporters' Shield standings" - pedantically, they can't both have finished atop the standings. Maybe say something like "the two teams tied for the most points in the MLS, but LAFC topped the Supporters' Shield standings based on......" (also at the equivalent point in the body)
Fixed by mentioning conference tables.
Soccer is linked in the lead but not in the body
Fixed.
"and was contested by 28 teams that are organized into" => "and was contested by 28 teams organized into"
Fixed.
"MLS Cup 2022 was the fourth final to be contested between two regular season winners" - "winners" is a bit vague, maybe say "conference champions"....?
Used "seeds" instead.
"LAFC took first place in Western Conference during the streak" => "LAFC took first place in the Western Conference during the streak"
Fixed.
"By the mid-point in the season in late June" => "By the mid-point of the season in late June"
Fixed.
"LAFC had amassed a 11–3–3 record" => "LAFC had amassed an 11–3–3 record"
Fixed.
"The Union sent Blake, and defenders" - don't think that comma is needed
Fixed.
"who were without forwa rd Talles Magno" - there's a random space in the middle of a word
Fixed.
"but instead finished a mis-timed clearance from the NYCFC defense" => "but instead finishing a mis-timed clearance from the NYCFC defense"
Reworded to be more clear, the sequence was quite chaotic.
Elliott image caption needs a full stop
Added.
"LAFC won a free kick from a similar spot in the 39th minute they almost used to score" => "LAFC won a free kick from a similar spot in the 39th minute which they almost used to score"
Fixed with some tweaks.
"In the 128th minute, LAFC equalized through a Diego Palacios cross that Gareth Bale headed in" => "In the 128th minute, LAFC equalized when Gareth Bale headed in a Diego Palacios cross"
A man and a woman enslaved in the United States find an opportunity during the War of 1812 to escape their home country and settle down as free people in rural Nova Scotia. Half a century later, their son travels to the American South as a US Navy sailor in the war to end slavery. His grave went unmarked until 2010 when he was honored with a Civil War-era military funeral service. This is one of those instances where you go on vacation, read a historical marker, look to Wikipedia for more information, then end up overhauling the article. I have 7 successful FA nominations so far, plus two FLs. This is my first using non-American English, so I would especially appreciate if anyone can find me misusing Canadian English. Thank you in advance for reading through the article and commenting on the nomination!
Dugan Murphy (
talk)
21:39, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Image review
File:BenJacksonNovaScotiaCivilWarVetCrop.png/File:BenJacksonNovaScotiaCivilWarVet.jpg need a US tag
{{PD-1996}} added since Canadian copyright law would place it in the public domain as of 1990 (75 years past the 1905 date of creation).
Dugan Murphy (
talk)
13:11, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Nikkimaria: The earliest publication I can find is the 2010 newspaper article cited in the article. Your question has prompted me to check on the image's original creation date and, according to
the record at the archive that holds the photo, it was created in 1903. For that reason, I have changed the US copyright tag again, this time to {{PD-US-unpublished}}.
File:Harper's_weekly_(1864)_(14784619962)_Crop.jpg: is a more specific tag available?
File:Gun_deck_USS_Richmond_LOC_4a14697v_Crop.jpg: why is this believed to be a work of the federal government? It's credited to what appears to be a private company.
Nikkimaria (
talk)
23:38, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
That's a good point. I changed the tag to {{PD-US-unpublished}} since the photographer is unknown but the work was created before 1904.
Dugan Murphy (
talk)
13:11, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Nikkimaria: I believe all image issues you brought up are resolved, including the issue with File:BenJacksonNovaScotiaCivilWarVetCrop.png/File:BenJacksonNovaScotiaCivilWarVet.jpg. Do you agree?
Dugan Murphy (
talk)
23:54, 2 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"He suffered a serious hand injury and received a Civil War Campaign Medal" → is this the same medal from the previous sentence about the grenade (I assumed so, given the hand injury)? If so, I'd break off the previous sentence after "naval mines" and have a separate sentence about the grenade episode that includes this information rather than repeating the medal bit
"Jackson retired from commercial sailing in 1875, but continued managing" → You can change "Jackson" to "He" since we're still talking about him from the previous sentence, where he's named
"Gun #10, USS Richmond" → unless this is standard practice for these types of things, I would recommend changing to "Gun No. 10" per
MOS:POUND
I can't find a standard. The source uses #, but I think its more appropriate to follow the MOS, so I just changed to match your recommendation.
Dugan Murphy (
talk)
02:28, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Early life
"their parents petitioned" → I know what you mean here, but "their" could be a little ambiguous since you've mentioned the children and the families in the first part of this sentence
"In adulthood, Jackson was more than six feet tall" → this doesn't quite fit in here; I would also lean towards questioning its relevance but if you can find a place where it fits I wouldn't object
Removed. Because Jackson is not a super well-documented person, I feel like I need to include every fact I could find about him. This was obviously the hardest to weave into the narrative.
Dugan Murphy (
talk)
02:28, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
American Civil War
"At this point in the Civil War" → Does this refer to the specific date of his enlistment or the duration of his service?
"Exploiting Mexico's neutrality, the Confederacy used that country's ports" → it seems a tad clunky to me to name "Mexico" and then use "that country" later in the same sentence. I feel like a rewording that can eliminate the need for separate clauses would be better, perhaps "The Confederacy exploited Mexico's neutrality by using its ports for international trade" or something better you can come up with
"a role he continued to serve" → this is a little picky, but I'd prefer "a role in which he continued to serve" since it sounds more natural to say you "serve in a role" rather than "serve a role"
"At the time, mines were called "torpedoes"." → I think this would be better as a footnote that came after the quote, rather than a full sentence in and of itself. As is, it's a bit confusing as the reader why I'm being told this until I read the next sentence
I think this fact is too crucial for understanding the quote to be relegated to a footnote. Looking over that section, I can't think of a better way to include Farragut's famous quote and have the reader understand what it means. Let me know if you have other thoughts on this.
Dugan Murphy (
talk)
02:28, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"Nova Scotia became one of four provinces via Canadian Confederation" → this reads a little awkwardly to me; perhaps "as a result of Canadian Confederation"?
Percy Paris's title (which is quite unwieldy) should be capitalized to stay consistent with the other titles in that sentence
Thank you for catching that. Another editor moved everything around in that sentence, which I didn't notice made this necessary. Done.
Dugan Murphy (
talk)
02:28, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Is the use of a review of Lincoln's Trident: The West Gulf Blockading Squadron During the Civil War rather than the book itself deliberate?
Yes, in the sense that it provides a summary. I used it as a source for some basic information about the WGBS to contextualize the information more specific to Jackson that I got from other sources.
Dugan Murphy (
talk)
14:57, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"to accept a position as ship's cook on the Saint John, New Brunswick-based Marlborough, sailing from Liverpool to New York City." This implies that he boarded the ship in Liverpool. Is that correct? If so, is it known how he got there?
"advancing to a new post on the USS Potomac". Suggest "advancing" → 'moving'.
The VANSDA source said "advanced", so I figured I would use that here to make clear that he was moving into a higher status position.
Dugan Murphy (
talk)
14:57, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Ok.
"actively blockading off the coast of Veracruz, Mexico." That should be 'actively blockading the coast of Veracruz, Mexico.' Also, at this point a reader is thinking "Why is the Union navy blockading Mexico?!"
"Documentation of the injury varies in both cause and severity." Do you mean something like 'Documentation relating to the injury varies in its descriptions of both its cause and severity'?
"Like most Black Canadian veterans of the Union Navy,[d] Jackson returned to his home country" read together with note d "About half of the Black Canadian veterans of the Union Army stayed in the US" does not make sense to me.
"Benjamin Jackson (January 2, 1835 – August 20, 1915) was a Canadian sailor and farmer"; "Like most Black British North American veterans of the Union Navy". Canadian, British?
Jackson was born in the British North American colony of Nova Scotia. Nova Scotia was still a British colony until two years after the Civil War ended, when it gained independence through confederation with the other now-Canadian provinces (48 years before Jackson's death). So it seems right to me to introduce him as Canadian in the lead, but refer to the Civil War vets as British North American if they are from anywhere in what is now Canada. Let me know if you have further thoughts on that, particularly if there is a policy on this I'm not aware of.
Dugan Murphy (
talk)
22:11, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I think this is important information about Jackson and should be in the article. I think your summary above - in green - is admirable. (I assume it is readily sourced. :-) ) Why not insert it somewhere in "Early life"?
I reworded the first two sentences of the Early life section to clarify that Nova Scotia was a colony at the time of his birth. I also added a sentence to the Employment and family section to mark the moment when the Jacksons became Canadian citizens via Confederation.
Dugan Murphy (
talk)
18:58, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"He was still working as a peddler by 1907." "by" → 'in'.
"Jackson started receiving a military pension of US$4 (equivalent to $79.62 in 2023) a month upon discharge from the navy." Suggest 'Jackson received a military pension of US$4 (equivalent to $79.62 in 2023) a month upon discharge from the navy.'
"The pension increased to US$8 a month in 1888, then $10 in 1890, then $14 in 1892." Maybe 'The pension increased to US$8 a month in 1888, $10 in 1890, and $14 in 1892' to avoid the repeat of "then"?
"He later increased it to $17 a month, then $20 circa 1910". "He"? Do you mean 'It was'?
I was trying to make clear that the increases came because of Jackson's persistence with the pension office, but I realize the other sentences around this one make that clear. Changed to "it was".
Dugan Murphy (
talk)
01:57, 6 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Gog the Mild: Thank you for the additional comments! I particularly appreciate having the eyes of a Civil War buff read over the article. I have addressed all of your comments. Do you think anything warrants further discussion?
Dugan Murphy (
talk)
01:57, 6 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Good work. A couple of thoughts above. (I would not consider myself a Civil War buff, I am not even American. But I am a MilHist buff and passably knowledgeable on the
age of sail.)
Gog the Mild (
talk)
18:32, 6 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Thanks! I feel better about the whole Canada vs. British North America dynamic after adding a little more clarifying content. Do you see anything else worth discussing about the article?
Matarisvan
I reviewed this article at the peer review and found it well written and likely to pass FAC. There is only one thing I would like to suggest,
Dugan Murphy:
Consider restructuring the lead so that it is 4 paragraphs long, which is the FAC criteria.
This article is about the
Fountain Fire, a large and destructive
wildfire in rural
Northern California in 1992. The fire itself largely took place over two dramatic days in late August, but its effects persisted in the region long afterward. It destroyed multiple small communities along the
State Route 299 corridor and was only contained by the efforts of more than 4,400 firefighters, making it one of the most destructive and expensive wildfires in state history; as fires in the Golden State have gotten bigger and badder it no longer makes any top 10 lists but remains no slouch. The article was successfully nominated for GA in January 2023 and received a peer review in February 2024. This is my first FAC nomination.
Lead: what is "long-range spotting"? (Googling I get things about hunting telescopes).
"Spotting" refers to wildfire behavior wherein embers and firebrands are lofted by wind or the fire's own convective smoke column and, landing in unburnt vegetation, ignite and thus spread the fire quickly and unpredictably. I've changed the lead to "...behavior such as long-range
spot fires", wiki-linking to
spot fire and
crown fire next to it for good measure. —
Penitentes (
talk)
13:54, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Background: TIL {{
rp}} has a quote option. I am not sure I like it, but my personal preference is not a FAC criterion.
Could you say something here about what the vegetation / forests in Shasta County were like before the fire?
Great thought. I've added a short paragraph to the "Background" section giving some general geographic context and describing the forest—I don't think it feels redundant to the information given in the "Post-fire landscape" section but please do tell me if you feel that way. —
Penitentes (
talk)
14:35, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
August 20: " Investigators found pine trees two–three feet (0.61–0.91 m) in diameter snapped in half.[15][19] Such vortices have been recorded ..." so was this snapping blamed on fire vortices?
A map of the local area helping the reader see what is where (a bit more zoomed in than the main map) would be great to understand this section better.
August 22: what is a "hand line"? (I apologise for my lack of fire and firefighting related vocabulary)
Hand line refers to
firebreaks dug/cut using hand tools instead of by bulldozers, as is also common. No need for an apology, I'm so immersed in the subject that it's very helpful to know what terms can and can't be gleaned by fresh readers. I've rephrased it in the article to "constructed
firebreaks by hand" and added that wiki-link to firebreak. —
Penitentes (
talk)
14:56, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Firefighting effort: is it worth giving more context on the $22 million by using {{
inflation}} or similar?
Closures and evacuations: how long did the evacuation order last?
I agree that this is necessary. It'll take a little longer to dig through the sources but I will try and do it this evening/this weekend, along with the map you mentioned above. —
Penitentes (
talk)
15:04, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
OK, I think this is largely done. It's difficult to pinpoint what communities were evacuated for which time periods, but I've added this text, which is supported by existing references. "Some residents of burned areas were able to access their properties on August 23 and 24. By August 25, Big Bend, Moose Camp, and Hillcrest were the only communities still under mandatory evacuation orders, and almost all evacuees were able to return by August 28." —
Penitentes (
talk)
21:07, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Salvage logging: " 10 families belonging to the Pit River Tribe of Native Americans occupied Smith Camp " had occupied?
The prose is in excellent shape already. Some specialist terminology could perhaps be glossed/avoided, but overall I find very little to complain about. I am amazed that this is your first FAC. —
Kusma (
talk)
22:14, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
That's very kind! I've responded to all of the comments above, and made changes pursuant to them (barring the new map and the evacuation duration). —
Penitentes (
talk)
15:04, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Excellent changes. I am happy to hear you are working on an additional map and have one minor point above, but this is already good enough for me to support. —
Kusma (
talk)
21:43, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Three weeks in and just the single general support. Unless this nomination makes significant further progress towards a consensus to promote over the next three or four days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived.
Gog the Mild (
talk)
15:13, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
This article is about an 8-mile-long railroad in Rhode Island with a surprisingly long and storied history. It ran from 1876 to 1981 and exists today as the
William C. O'Neill Bike Path. The article recently passed GA, and with the help of a book on the railroad I've been able to expand it to the point I believe it is ready for FAC. It's been over a year since my last nomination, so forgive me if I am a little rusty.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
16:31, 21 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Image review
Suggest adding alt text
File:Nn_Narragansett_Pier_Railroad._Steam_locomotive_on_steel_bridge.jpg: when and where was this first published, and if the author is unknown how do we know they died over 70 years ago? Ditto File:NPRR_No_1_'Narragansett'_built_by_Mason_in_1876_and_used_until_about_1891.jpg
These were uploaded by an editor who is, to put it bluntly, not competent (I removed a swath of text they added to the article which was basically copied from online). They've uploaded all sorts of photos like this that they found online and just assumed were public domain without any investigation. The photo of locomotive 1 is also found in the Edward J. Ozog collection:
[9]. The other image can be replaced with a variety of alternatives.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
13:36, 22 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Sorry for the long delay in response - I've gone through a difficult move, started a new job, and had my car die on me in the past week. I'm not really sure how to respond to that - the end result of what you're proposing is to delete half the photos from the article (though
[10] may be ok as a postcard which was therefore published). I don't have much in the way of further information on these photos, other that most were published in A Short Haul to the Bay in 1969. I would attempt to keep some of these photos as fair use if they are deleted, because it would be gutting the photos of the article to the point important information would be lost.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
13:15, 4 July 2024 (UTC)reply
According to
[13], Brown has been collecting these portraits since the 1800s. The portrait collection has been exhibited online by Brown's
Center for Digital Scholarship. The portraits are physically located across the university in various buildings and libraries.
Per Commons, I am unclear on if the original exhibiting of the portraits in university buildings counts as the publication date, or the later (appears to be around 2003) online hosting does. That said, I think we have to be realistic that a portrait completed in 1880 is unlikely to still be protected by copyright.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
15:25, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
File:Streamline_Bus_and_Car-Evans_Motor-Harris_%26_Ewing-1930.jpg: when and where was this first published and what is the author's date of death?
Nikkimaria (
talk)
05:22, 22 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I'll admit to having a penchant for short leads, but in this case
MOS:LEADLENGTH agrees with me. The main body is about 4200 words, which suggests 2-3 paragraphs. Some suggestions for things that can be cut, but these are just a few examples. I'll leave it to you to see what else can be trimmed:
"chiefly Rowland G. Hazard", for a summary, no need to go into this level of detail
"Peace Dale and Wakefield" it's enough to just say "textile mills", no need to specify the towns they were in for this summary.
"absorbed by the Hazards", of course they absorbed it, they owned a thing that was losing money, who else was going to absorb the loss?
"The Hazards also operated a connecting steamboat service to Newport." This article is about the railroad, so that's not essential for a summary.
inherited a mill I'm guessing that means
textile mill, but only because I know a bit about New England history. You should specify what type of mill. Oh, yeah, you say so in the next sentence, but still better to add one word up front to keep the reader from wondering.
The Hazards at first focused on Are you talking here about the father or the sons?
The Hazard family had a very annoying habit of naming one person "Rowland Hazard", his son "Rowland Gibson Hazard", and his son "Rowland Hazard". According to Henwood, the Hazards we are concerned with are Rowland Gibson Hazard, founder of the railroad, and his brother Isaac Peace Hazard. Rowland Hazard, founder of the mills, retired in 1819 according to Henwood, but Heppner says the brothers inherited the mill from him in the late 1820s. Trying to piece together the truth here.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
14:44, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I feel your pain. When I wrote
Margaret Sibella Brown, I discovered that the family seemed to name every newborn girl some variation on Sibella for many generations. I guess when you've got a name that works, you just stick with it :-)
RoySmith(talk)16:10, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
but focused exclusively on rephrase to avoid repetitive use of "focused"
destroyed the factory and necessitated rebuilding If the factory was destroyed, then it's obvious that it was necessary to rebuild if they were going to continue the business. On the other hand, it wasn't really necessary; they could have just sold the land for another use and not rebuilt at all. So some clarification would help here.
Rowland G. Hazard's strong abolitionist sympathies harmed the sale of cotton products in the slaveholding southern states this is an abrupt change of topic. What does this have to do with what comes before (the fire and rebuilding) or after (the re-powering to use steam)? Seems like it belongs in another section somewhere.
The significance of this, according to Heppner, was a shift in products from lower quality cottons, wools, and linens to woolen yarns of high quality. The transition from water power to steam power took place shortly afterwards, leading to a need for coal (imported by ship from mid-Atlantic ports like Philadelphia, as Rhode Island had little in the way of coal). The mills being several miles from the port at Narragansett Pier made getting the coal there a problem, as there were no trucks back then. This was one of the reasons the Hazards built the railroad. Heppner does tend to go into what some might call off topic or too much exposition, in that he tried to make a book enjoyable both for experts with the subject matter and the general reader, so maybe some of this detail can be trimmed from the article. The key point is that when the mills switched to steam power it provided impetus for a railroad to get the coal from the port to the mills. Henwood also mentions Rowland G. Hazard as an abolitionist but doesn't link that to the railroad directly. He does mention Rowland G.'s investments in the building of the Union Pacific Railroad which I appear to have neglected to add to the article previously.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
14:44, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
neither efficient or cheap for the mill drop "for the mill". For whom else would the efficiency or cost be an issue? Also, I suppose this is a style preference, but saying "inefficient and expensive" seems more straight forward. Taking that one step further, being inefficient implies extra cost, so maybe all that could be reduced to just "was expensive".
I reworded as "The boilers required coal, imported to the coastal town of Narragansett Pier four miles (6.4 km) southeast by ships and then loaded on wagons and brought to the mills by wagons, a process costly in both time and money." Henwood mentions the coal could be bought cheaply from Philadelphia and imported by schooner, but a railroad was needed to move the coal cheaply and quickly from the docks to the mills.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
15:21, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
(commonly known as the Stonington Line, for its western terminus in Stonington, Connecticut) This is a long and complicated sentence. I'd leave this parenthetical out completely, as knowing it doesn't add anything to the reader's understanding of this article's subject.
I can definitely remove most of the parenthetical, but I've been told that if I'm going to use an alternate name (and the New York, Providence and Boston Railroad was almost universally known as the Stonington Line) that name needs to be introduced.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
14:44, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
hampered the mill's ability In the lead, you talk about two mills (Peace Dale and Wakefield), but here you say there's just one. That needs to be sorted out.
That sentence in the lead is one of the only sentences remaining from before I rewrote the article. While Karr says mills in Peace Dale and Wakefield, Heppner and Henwood concur that the Hazards' mills were in Peace Dale, though Henwood states mills were also present in nearby Wakefield (the two villages are so close together you can walk from one to the other in less than half an hour). He writes "By mid-century, the textile industry had developed and was centered in the villages of Peace Dale and nearby Wakefield. The Peace Dale Manufacturing Company, controlled by the Hazard family, dominated the economic life of the community". The driving force for building the railroad was the Hazard family mills, but they certainly wouldn't turn away other paying freight customers. I'm going to change the lead to just discuss the Hazard family mills in Peace Dale.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
15:21, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Elisha R. Potter provided an additional $15,000 in funding, use {{inflation}} (here and elsewhere)
when the stockholders held a meeting on January 26, 1876, I'd say "subsequent meeting". Yes, you can work out from the dates that this isn't the same meeting referred to earlier, but this'll make it more obvious. Stopping to figure out the chronology interrupts the reader's flow, so save them the effort.
The Stonington Line also agreed to subscribe $15,000 towards the line's construction between 1875 and 1876. More fuzzy chronology. After you talk about a meeting in 1876, you back up to talk about an agreement in 1875. It's also not immediately clear what "the line" refers to. The Stonington Line or the proposed Narragansett Pier line?
This is sourced to the Stonington Line's annual report dated October 1876
[15]. The directors wrote "In accordance with the policy heretofore pursued, of aiding to a moderate extent in the construction of Branch Roads likely to increase the business of this Company, $15,000 has been invested in the capital stock of the Narragansett Pier Railroad, at par." The report is "for the 13 months ending 30th September, 1876" making it unclear which year the investment was made exactly. This made the Stonington Line the biggest stockholder besides members of the Hazard family. Open to suggestions on how to word this better. Perhaps we drop "between 1875 and 1876" since the investment had to have been made before the line opened and that should be fairly clear to the reader.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
14:44, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Reworded as "The Stonington Line also agreed to subscribe $15,000 towards the line's construction in hopes that the opening of the new railroad would provide it with more business."
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
15:21, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I'm going to (politely) press you on using {{inflation}}. For stuff that happened 150-ish years ago, our readers won't have a feel for whether $15,000 is a lot, an astronomical lot, or something in between.
RoySmith(talk)21:06, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Now done, except for the sentence in the Great Depression section where four dollar amounts are called out. I think adding the inflation templates 4 times in a row would be very unwieldy for reading.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
21:08, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
That seems reasonable, although maybe just convert the first one in the sentence? BTW, take a look at the markup in
American Bank Note Company Printing Plant where I got it to generate a less verbose version, for example $10 million ($339 million in 2023). I think I've settled on using the default "equivalant to" version the first time in an article, then the shorter version after that.
RoySmith(talk)13:34, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
A locomotive was purchased from the Mason Machine Works... this is an overly complex sentence. The inclusion of a multiple-sentence quote makes it particularly difficult to parse. Also, when was the purchase? And what's a "flag stave"?
Flag staves allow for the mounting of flags on a locomotive
like this. They were an optional extra Rowland G. Hazard had no right to demand when he was paying a rock bottom price for the locomotive. The locomotive was ordered in May 1876 and arrived in June, both of which I have clarified in the text. I've broken up the sentence.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
22:26, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
demand quickly grew to the point this number ... where this number
single tickets were available for travel on both railroads I assume this was some kind of revenue-share arrangement? If there's any information available, it might be interesting to explain a bit how that worked. Did the customer get a discount vs purchasing the two fares separately?
Henwood writes "Tickets were sold to all points on the Stonington Road under the tariff arrangement with that carrier, but the Narragansett Pier Railroad was unable to make similar "drawback" arrangements with other New England lines". That's all the detail the book gives.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
22:26, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
the railroad's sole passenger car I'm guessing this was
Mixed train operation? If so, link to that.
There was mixed train operation later on, but at this point the company ran separate passenger and freight trains. The locomotive would shuttle back and forth with the line's sole passenger car.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
22:26, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Travelers from Providence could reach Narragansett Pier in approximately 80 minutes' time as a sad commentary on the current state of rail in the US, that is significantly faster than Google Maps claims you can do today.
Travelers from as far away as New York City ... to the Narragansett Pier Railroad for the final stretch overly long and complex sentence.
For the first time since opening no need to say "since opening", that's pretty much a given.
(done with everything through the end of "Second period of Hazard Family operations")
(picking up with "American Associates ownership" in
Special:Permalink/1231293569)
at a cost of $25,000, saying "for" would be simpler (thinking lovingly of my copy of Strunk and White).
Actually, I'd refactor these two sentences into "American Associates purchased the railroad from the Hazard family in April 1946 at a cost of $25,000.[2][59] American was the family trust of Royal Little who was also the founder and owner of Textron, then a textiles company."
Passenger service was subsequently officially terminated at the end of that year Why "officially"? That makes me think that service continued in some unofficial capacity. Also, drop "subsequently" that's implicit in "at the end of that year".
The authorization to terminate passenger service didn't come from the RI Public Utilities Commission until the end of the year, and as a common carrier the railroad couldn't just decide not to carry them on its own. The few remaining passengers were carried either in taxis or the railroad superintendent's car from June until the railroad received permission to end passenger service. De facto, there were no passenger trains run after June 1952. Unlike the
Wood River Branch Railroad, I don't see any indication passengers were carried on trains informally after this point (that is, until Hanold enters the picture later). Added to the article.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
17:17, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
With passenger service gone, only minimal freight traffic was carried to and from Narragansett Pier I'm not understanding this sentence. It seems to imply that the ending of passenger service was the cause of the decreased freight traffic.
The intended message is that passenger service was pretty much all that went to Narragansett Pier. Hanold says the company average 3 inbound freight cars a year there, and the higher outbound total of 51 carloads over the last 5 years was only due to a military base being decommissioned and the military shipping out a bunch of their equipment by rail. Added more detail about this.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
17:17, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I think there's a few left. I am dealing with a difficult situation irl still (I don't have a car and am working to get a new one) and that has greatly limited my editing time. I was hoping to have that dealt with by now but it's taking longer than I'd like.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
23:23, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Poor's Manual is more fully titled "Poor's Manual of the Railroads of the United States". I would also throw in the volume number (37) since that's readily available.
Setting over a dozen citations to Railroads of Rhode Island across a page range of pp. 126–133, 155–157 seems unfair to the reader, especially when you use sfns for Henwood, who is also cited throughout.
Karr is also a book with a page range reused several time, but I would call that less egregious because the whole thing only uses a 3-page range
Utterly a prose nitpick in the middle of my source review, but "compelled by complaints to reduce its passenger fares in 1901, though passengers continued to complain" - complaint/complain in the same sentence feels repetitive.
That's actually it, I didn't find much formatting to snark about
I did clarify in the caption of the legacy image that it's a replica station, feel free to revert if I misunderstood
Spot checks
Not required but doing anyway to be extra. Performed basically at random from what seemed interesting or was accessible.
Ref 1 good
I don't have full access to Heppner, but information checked through Google snippets didn't turn up any issues
Ref 18 good
Ref 20 was annoying to find on the page, but checks out
Refs 27, 28, 29 all good
Refs 33, 34, 36, 37 also good - I've asked to look at ref 35 mainly since I'm already doing this paragraph Recieved and checks out.
Ref 50 good, access via TWL - might be nice to have a link to the ProQuest version, since it's "via" ProQuest, I had to go looking myself :P
Ref 57 good
Ref 62 I can't access but the info is supported by Heppner even though it's not cited here (was looking at Heppner citation for Wakefield Branch Company buying a locomotive and it's nearby in Heppner)
I'm satisfied by the source formatting. Spot checks turned up no issues with either accuracy or copyvio. Sources used are appropriately high-quality; old newspaper sources are used judiciously to support non-contentious statements or reportage as it was stated at the time. ♠
PMC♠
(talk)07:42, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
It appears that the last name of the author of the book in the references list is Henwood, and his middle initials are N. J. The way it is written out, it looks like "N. J. Henwood" is his last name. I recommend moving the initials to the first name parameter. That would of course mean editing all the SFN citations to match.
What do you think about moving the Heppner reference listing to the General references section and using more page-specific inline citations to it, as you do with the Henwood book?
Overall structure
According to
MOS:ORDER, the External links section should be last.
Why is the Legacy section a subsection of the Later owners section rather than at the same hierarchical level?
I felt weird about having a section at the same level with only a few sentences, but if consensus is making this a full section header is the way to go I'm fine with that.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
17:18, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
How is the See also section helpful to the reader?
The intent was to link the other Rhode Island shortlines, most of which have long histories like this one. I've debated making a good topic on these since all 5 entries are GA or higher.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
17:18, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Maybe this is just me, but I would prefer to see the References section changed to "Citations" and the General references section changed to "References". I'm saying that because I've seen "General references" used for lower-quality articles that acknowledge generally where the information came from but lack inline citations.
necessitated rebuilding; Rowland G. Hazard's strong – I don't see a need for this to be one sentence.
Rowland G. Hazard's strong abolitionist sympathies harmed the sale of cotton products in the slaveholding southern states. Is that because anti-abolitionists boycotted Hazard's products?
I recommend changing "slaveholding southern states" to "slave states" and Wikilinking
slave state. That is, in case that sentence is rewritten to take the focus away from slave states to people within them who may have been boycotting Hazard's products.
not long after the rebuild steam power started to be used instead – This phrase needs a comma after "rebuild", but I recommend this rewording instead: "it converted to steam power shortly after the rebuild".
The sentence that starts The boilers required coal is a bit unwieldy. I think it would be easier to read if broken up. Also, the "or" should be "nor". If kept as one sentence, you could change wagons, which was neither efficient or cheap for the mill. to "wagons; this was neither efficient nor cheap for the mill."
The sentence that starts Narragansett Pier itself was growing is also unwieldy.
Narragansett Pier itself was growing – "itself" is unnecessary.
approval for a new charter in 1868 – was there an old charter?
No, this was the first charter, so I removed "new".
The charter was approved in 1868, and the survey was completed "promptly" afterward, but construction couldn't start because of a financial panic that didn't start until 5 years later? Is it that "promptly" means 5+ years or neither party had ever built a railroad before implies a 5-year delay?
The Hazards struggled to raise funding for the railroad. The Stonington Line's $15,000 didn't come until 1875/6. Beyond the Hazard family, there wasn't really anyone in the area at that time with the money to drop on financing a new railroad beyond small purchases of shares by local residents and businesses. Henwood says "There was a long struggle to raise money, and many disappointing setbacks were encountered. As a result of the Panic of 1873, the financial climate grew increasingly chilly for new enterprises." I have made this more explicit in the text.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
19:14, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
could count on sounds a little too far off
WP:NPOV for my taste.
The two uses of Rowland G. Hazard's full name in the Construction section would read better as just "Hazard". By that point, there haven't been any mentions of other Hazards for a while.
I would like to see a couple of contextual words to help the reader understand what a flag stand/stave is. Like, "Disappointed that he would be unable to fly flags from the front of the train, Hazard complained: 'We do not find flag stands on the engine'".
I'm guessing William Mason is the owner of Mason Machine works. It would help the reader to introduce him that way.
The sources emphasize that Mason, very much busy running an entire manufacturing company, was so peeved by Hazard that he took time out of his day to write a personal response lambasting his demands. Henwood says "On July 24th, the exasperated builder took time to reply to this customer who had purchased the grand total of one locomotive at a minimum price and then demanded extra frills", and Heppner states this was the culmination of multiple letters sent to Mason by Hazard. For that reason, I think it is necessary.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
02:23, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
reply to Hazard stating should be "reply to Hazard, stating:".
Since the first word following each ellipsis is the start of a new sentence, they both should be four periods, rather than three.
The exasperated Mason quote is a bit long. I think it would be better to summarize most of it and only quote the interesting non-NPOV bits like "expensive and boyish".
Add something to define side-dump car if you're going to use that term. You could Wikilink
Side dump car in the hopes that it is someday expanded, but at this time, it is very unhelpful.
Culprit is poor word choice for maintaining NPOV.
I believe this is an accurate reflection of the source, which has an entire section entitled "amateurs assemble a railroad" and repeatedly points out their last minute scrambles to address issues and ill preparation for the task of running a railroad. I think we need to remember that NPOV does not mean "no POV".
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
02:23, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
(despite Hazard hoping to open the line on July 1) – I don't think this needs to be in parentheses.
Initially, four round trips were run daily for passengers, but demand quickly grew to the point this number was increased to six could be shorter and more straightforward: "The line initially ran four round trips per day, but demand quickly grew this number to six"
The sentence that starts Passenger trains connected mentions the Kingston connection twice, which seems unnecessary.
filled to the brim is a poor choice of phrase for maintaining NPOV.
Respectfully disagree. It is accurate to the source and not an opinion. I am a proponent of encyclopedic writing and interesting writing, and don't see the two as being at odds. This is an encyclopedia written by humans for humans, and I do not see anything in NPOV that says writing such as this example is against policy.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
02:23, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
ice was imported in trains for cooling during the summers – being a Maine historian familiar with the 19th-century New England ice industry, I take this to mean that ice shipped on this line was used for refrigeration and maybe air conditioning. If that's the case, I recommend making that more obvious.
Yes, it was precisely that. I see how this might be interpreted as cooling the trains themselves, so I reworded. The sentence is now "ice was imported in trains for local use as a coolant during the summers" with "ice was imported" linked to
ice trade. Since you're more familiar with this topic, let me know if this conveys the meaning properly.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
02:23, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
was started could just be "started".
necessary - passengers – that should be an en dash, not a hyphen.
Halfway through the Operation by the Hazard Family section, Narragansett Pier is being referred to as a resort town, but until then, the reader has only heard about the town's industrial concerns. I recommend adding a little bit to the Background section about the town's resort economy. Or at the very least, preface the first mention of Narragansett Pier of a resort town with something like "Narragansett Pier's tourism economy was also growing" or something like that.
I apparently read your mind, because I only just read this now but added Narragansett Pier's potential as a coastal resort had been known to businessmen since the construction of its first hotel in 1856, but significant growth was held back by poor transportation links earlier today.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
02:23, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
second locomotive used – I had to read this twice. The second locomotive was second-hand?
Yes, their urgency for a second locomotive combined with limited funding meant they ended up with a used locomotive (originally built 1872) from the Providence and Worcester Railroad. Reworded as "purchased a used locomotive from the Providence and Worcester Railroad".
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
02:23, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
20,000 short tons (18,000 long tons; 18,000 t) of freight – What does this mean?
The Wikilink for "passenger train" comes late in the body. I recommend moving the link to the first use of that term, earlier in the body. I also recommend a piped link from "passenger business" in the lead.
its first dividend to its shareholders – the second "its" is unnecessary.
Does "the Pier" refer to the Narragansett Pier or a pier within Narragansett Pier?
"The Pier" is sometimes capitalized and sometimes not. It should be if this is an abbreviation for the town name.
The Narragansett Pier Railroad was compelled by complaints to reduce its passenger fares in 1901, though passengers continued to complain that the railroad required long layover times for travelers connecting with trains to and from Providence. The two halves of this sentence don't seem as connected as the "though" connector makes it seem. Or am I missing something?
the trip to Narragansett Pier was only a matter of minutes – from where?
Is there a map of the line you can include as an image?
The monopoly allegation was also made in 1898 by proponents of a new steamboat wharf in Narragansett Pier that would connect to Providence, who pointed to the railroad's high rates (at the time 50 cents between Kingston and Narragansett pier) and surcharges on coal shipments. I recommend rewording and probably splitting into more than one sentence. Reading this the first time, it looked like Providence pointed, though I understand it was the proponents who pointed.
They found a buyer "They" are the Hazards, not the Pier, right?
They found a buyer in the New Haven, which under the control of J. P. Morgan was fearful of the Southern New England Railway and its plans to build a competing rail line in the area; were the Southern New England to buy the Narragansett Pier, it would have an outlet to Narragansett Bay. This sentence is unwieldy. Who is under Morgan's control? The buyer? How could Southern New England Railway buy the town of Narragansett Pier?
I think "small change" is a poor choice of phrase for maintaining NPOV.
Ditto "one-way track towards bankruptcy".
shareholders that distrusted should be "shareholders who distrusted".
not a good fit – according to whom?
I recommend changing Though it was never an intentional act, the Narragansett Pier Railroad's new owners neglected to "The Narragansett Pier Railroad's new owners unintentionally neglected". It's less wordy and, in my opinion, more aligned with NPOV.
The article starts using USRA without making clear what it is abbreviating.
New Haven, CT, should be Wikilinked from its first use, rather than where it currently is Wikilinked.
which could not claim much importance in the war effort seems tacked onto its sentence without being that relevant to it.
How did the USRA cut passenger rail service and overwork the locomotives at the same time?
By neglecting their maintenance.
I would argue that the "finally" in "finally failed" is unnecessary and leans away from NPOV.
As part of the resolution of the Rhode Island Company's assets, the Narragansett Pier lease was cancelled in 1920; the USRA returned operations to the Hazard family on March 1, 1920. So the lease was canceled, then the Hazards took back control?
This is because of the nationalization. The Sea View failed in 1919, but federal control didn't end until March 1, 1920, and the court cases dealing with the Rhode Island Company's assets concluded with the Narragansett Pier Railroad lease being cancelled before the end of federal control.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
15:12, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
already proven to be a maintenance headache just to get operational is a poor phrase choice for NPOV.
citing competition by cars and trucks – given the predominant use of car for rolling stock, I recommend replacing with "automobile".
was not ignorant of the role of automobiles is poor phrasing for NPOV.
What part of this contradicts NPOV? NPOV does not mean that writing cannot be expressive, and the sentence is an accurate description of the state of affairs and a faithful representation of the views of the cited sources. Management knew that the automobile was a threat and decided "if you can't beat them, join them".
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
02:23, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
(in large part, this covered the route of the abandoned Sea View Railroad). I think this would read better as its own sentence outside parentheses.
spelled the end is not a great phrase for maintaining NPOV.
To improve readability, I think which sat on valuable land in demand for commercial use should be set apart from the rest of the sentence with en dashes rather than commas.
At the behest of the State of Rhode Island, which was building a highway crossing the railroad right-of-way near Narragansett Pier, the now seldom-used segment beyond Wakefield was abandoned, shortening the line to approximately five miles (8.0 km) in length. Unfortunately for the state, by the time the Interstate Commerce Commission gave the railroad permission to abandon the segment, work on the bridge had progressed to the point it was cheaper to complete it than to abandon its construction. I don't understand what's happening here.
Where does the quote "liquified fish guts" come from?
New Jersey Railroad it was needs a comma before "it".
The entire Legacy section should be rewritten to improve shelf life: has been converted to "was converted" and since 2010 terminates under a mile from Narragansett Pier to "in 2010 was extended to a mile outside Narragansett Pier". For the last two sentences, adding "as of 2007/2017" is appropriate because those publications cannot say what is standing today.
I'm of the opinion that everything in the infobox should be drawn from the article body. Can you add the track gauge to the body? I'm also not sure the 8-mile length shows up in the body. The reporting mark doesn't.
The length was actually 8.5 miles, though officially reported as 8 in a number of sources. This has been corrected and both sourced and stated in the body. The reporting mark comes up as NAP in The Official Railway Equipment Register on Google books, though unfortunately only a snippet view is available. Nonetheless I have cited it as it shows enough to me that I can confirm the reporting mark is correct. I cannot conceive of any way to discuss a reporting mark in the body, and also disagree that the gauge needs to be explicitly discussed. Essentially every single railroad in North America has used standard gauge since the Civil War ended.
Trainsandotherthings (
talk)
09:48, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Kingston Station as well could use a comma before "as"
a blow the resort town never fully recovered from isn't great NPOV wording.
in 1936 the railroad could use a comma after "1936".
non-rail operations; steam locomotives: I don't think the second part of that sentence relates enough to the first part to justify joining them with a semicolon.
The last paragraph of the lead should be reworded to preserve shelf life. Most of the right-of-way has been converted could be "In the 21st century, most of the right-of-way was converted". And using now operates is asking for it to become out of date.
Overall
Despite my long long list of comments, I think the prose is good enough to be FAC-worthy if all of those comments are addressed. Honestly, if I had it to do over again, I would say that this article should go back to peer review before writing out all those comments. Having done so, however, I think there's an opportunity to bring the article to FAC quality here. Earwig finds no likely plagiarism. It is certainly well-researched, assuming PMC's source check finds that the sources are all good and represent a comprehensive survey of the relevant sources. The article is certainly comprehensive in telling all the twists and turns in the railroad's history and I think the lead does a great job compressing all that detail into something that can be consumed quickly and easily.
Dugan Murphy (
talk)
22:22, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
My fourth nomination, following the
Aston Martin DB9,
Aston Martin Rapide and the
Lagonda Taraf; the former two have both been promoted whilst the latter is awaiting its promotion. This article is about the 2012 Aston Martin Vanquish, a gorgeous car based upon the now 20 year old platform of the DB9. I believe this article is well written and well sourced. Enjoy the read!
750h+08:03, 21 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Image review by Arconning
File:2014 Aston Martin Vanquish, skyfall silver.jpg - CC BY-SA 3.0
File:2015 Aston Martin Vanquish, rear left (Lisbon).jpg - CC-BY-SA 3.0
File:2014 Aston Martin Vanquish Volante 5.9 V12 (52055905516) (cropped).jpg - CC BY 2.0
File:2017 Aston Martin Vanquish Zagato VH319Z.jpg - CC BY-SA 4.0
File:2017 Aston Martin Vanquish Zagato Rear.jpg - CC BY-SA 4.0
File:2019 Aston Martin Vanquish Zagato Shooting Brake no 73 at Greenwich 2019, front left.jpg - CC BY-SA 3.0
File:2019 Aston Martin Vanquish Zagato Shooting Brake no 73 at Greenwich 2019, rear left.jpg - CC BY-SA 3.0
File:2018 Aston Martin Vanquish Zagato Speedster in Golden Saffron, front right (Greenwich 2019).jpg - CC BY-SA 3.0
File:2018 Aston Martin Vanquish Zagato Speedster in Golden Saffron, rear right (Greenwich 2019).jpg - CC BY-SA 3.0
All images have good alt-text and are relevant to the article.
The six images under the section of "Vanquish Zagato" seem formatted well.
As always, these are suggestions, not demands; feel free to refuse, with adequate justification.
Is the promotional quote at the start of the History section necessary?
removed
Much of the first paragraph of the history section seems tangential: a succession of "at [date] [car show], Aston Martin unveiled the [car]" isn't very useful. What do they have to do with the 2012 Vanquish?
its background. Ive split that off.
"At the 2012 edition" month?
added
Is the Concorso's location needed?
removed
There seems very little discussion of the original Vanquish
its a completely unrelated car; in the car industry, same nameplate does not equal related car
"Aston Martin revealed a concept car called the Project AM310 Concept. In June 2012, the company announced that the production version of this concept" lots of "concept"ing going around; prose should be tighter.
fixed
"and succeeding the DBS." succeeding as what?
it replaces the DBS. ive specified that
"The Vanquish debuted at several events" I was under the impression that a debut happens once.
changed to “showcased”
" of the coupe" the
WP:ELEGVAR isn't helpful, especially as the car hasn't been called a coupe yet.
changed to “car”
A rather abrupt jump between "manufacture began" and "production ended", six years apart. Also seems like the variants would be better suited as subsections of "History"
I have moved this. It is a short section though. Not much is available on the convertible, so i don’t believe the latter suggestion is necessary
"the fourth generation of the vertical/horizontal platform" this platform has been linked before, and I still don't know what it is (
MOS:NOFORCELINK)
is this better?
"which is thirty per cent stiffer and lighter...was enhanced by 25 per cent" compared to?
fixed
There are four occurences of "The Vanquish features...", including two at the start of paragraphs, which makes the section feel slightly too promotional.
removed
WP:NOTSTATS says: "Statistics that lack context or explanation can reduce readability and may be confusing". This is the case for too much of the "Design and technology" section. Can you explain the necessity of the following statistics, and how do they compare in context with other cars:
The length and piston-number of the callipers
removed that
The ... something of the tyres (I have absolutely no clue what "255/35R20" is supposed to mean)
removed that too, really isn’t necessary
The individual fuel consumption ratings for city driving, highways, and combined (shouldn't the last be sufficient?)
agreed, removed the other two
The engine's power/torque output
every article on a car should have those stats
Is there nothing about the visual similiarities/differences with other cars?
This source takes that line.
comparisons with other cars generally aren’t helpful. Plus, the source provided just includes its predecessor and its concept
"hand-stitched leather and Alcantara" where on the car
explained via footnote
The tenses need a look: see e.g. the switch in "Its maximum speed remained unchanged, but its 0 to 100 km/h (62 mph) acceleration has been changed to 4.2 seconds.
"Weighing 1,844 kilograms (4,065 lb), the Vanquish is 105 kilograms (231 lb) heavier than the coupe and 34 kilograms (75 lb) more massive more than its predecessor, the DBS Volante." Fair few points: the Vanquish is ... heavier than the Vanquish? "more massive more"? what's the difference between heavier and more massive? My understanding was that they were the same on Earth.
mistype; fixed
"The convertible top of the Volante ... operates in fourteen seconds" this is annoyingly imprecise: obviously you mean that it takes fourteen seconds to open and close, but instead the article just says it "operates", which could mean anything.
specified
"The car's boot space has been significantly increased over the Vanquish coupe, with a capacity of 279 litres (9.9 cu ft)" the article doesn't actually say what the Vanquish coupe's boot space is, only that its cargo space is nearly 100 litres larger than the convertible.
done
It would be better to move the sentence talking about dealing with added weight to immediately follow the sentence talking about said extra weight.
(refer to above)
Tenses again awry in the "Vanquish S" subsection
fixed
"an optional "graphics packs""?
removed
Is the Palmer quote needed?
I think its a nice add-on
Nothing about what differentiated the Zagato edition, aside from it being a collaboration?
Ive added some characteristics.
It is also the first and only section which talks about units produced. Is there nothing in the sources about corresponding figures for the other models?
Nope, unfortunately
Why does the "Variants" section talk about when "deliveries began", while the "History" section mentions when "manufacture" began and "production" ended? Are they the same thing?
Manufacture/production means when the first units rolled out of the production line. Deliveries is when the cars got delivered to the customers
Are the double images for each Zagato model needed? If yes, consider using
Template:Multiple image.
done
"Reviewers and automotive publishers mostly praised the Vanquish's opulent exterior and interior." gives the impression that the following paragraph is going to be about the opulence, but this is not the case. See
WP:RECEPTION for how to better organise a section.
removed.
For the current state of the article, I'm going to note a weak oppose. The lack of preparation for FAC is clearly evident through the varying levels of focus, prose issues, and general absence of polish. The good news is that it's not a bad article by any means, and is fairly short, so not hard to improve. To the nominator: if you want me to have another look, ping me when you're sure all issues (including ones not mentioned) have been fixed, and I'll have another (final) look.
~~ AirshipJungleman29 (
talk)
13:30, 22 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
AirshipJungleman29: I believe I have addressed all your comments. I hope we can strike that oppose! Personally I don't think it's as bad as thought, I just think there's a lot of car jargon which may be confusing to non-car people.
750h+15:51, 22 June 2024 (UTC)reply
"a presentation to a group of guests at the London Film Museum" → this is the only one of the three events in the sentence that doesn't have a month - recommend mentioning July as you do in the body
done
"with deliveries initiating in late 2013" → simplify wording, change "initiating" to "starting" or "beginning"
done
"performance, whilst a more significantly" → recommend eliminating "whilst" and breaking this sentence there (especially since "whilst" implies simultaneous events and these two events happened two years apart)
done
"comprising" → doesn't really fit with "various body styles" so I'd recommend using a different word there
fixed
History
No notes.
Design and tech
"Its structure" → the car's structure or the VH platform's structure?
fixed
"from the DBS, DB9 and Rapide" → serial comma is used earlier in the article but not here; either way is fine but this should be consistent
fixed
Variants
"Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance Aston Martin" → add comma before "Aston"
done
"maximum speed remained unchanged," [past tense] "but its 0 to 100 km/h (62 mph) acceleration has been changed to 4.2 seconds" [present perfect continuous]
fixed
"which is crafted of triple-layer fabric" → sounds a little advertisement-y, maybe "made of"?
done
"The transmission response time was improved. The Vanquish S also features" → another tense shift
fixed
"composed of exposed carbon fibre, diamond-turned alloy wheels and carbon bonnet louvres" → another instance of no serial comma
fixed
"At the 2016 edition of the Concorso d'Eleganza Villa d'Este in May" → maybe "At the May 2016 edition of the Concorso d'Eleganza Villa d'Este" for simplicity?
done
"deliveries were also initiated in 2017" → for simplicity and changing the passive voice, maybe "deliveries also started in 2017"
done
"of the series—the" → recommend comma rather than dash
done
Reception
"bewitchingly beautiful always"." → since the whole sentence is in quotes, you can move the full stop inside the quote marks
I know a spotcheck isn't technically needed, but I thought I'd check a few since I found some spotcheck issues in a recent GA by 750h+. Footnote numbers refer to
this version.
FN 54 cites "In August 2014, Aston Martin introduced technical updates to the Vanquish model. The modifications included a new eight-speed automatic transmission, known as 'Touchtronic III', and an upgraded engine. The upgraded engine produces 424 kilowatts (576 PS) and 630 newton-metres (460 lbf⋅ft) of torque, sufficient to give the car a 0 to 100 km/h (62 mph) acceleration time of 3.6 seconds; its maximum speed remained unchanged." Some of these details don't appear to be in the source: the August date, for example, and the power and torque figures. The 3.6 seconds time is for accelerating to 60 mph, not 62 mph. The maximum speed did in fact increase according to the source.
FN 65 cites "Its power output was increased to 595 horsepower (444 kW) whilst its torque output was increased to 630 newton-metres (465 lb⋅ft). Aston Martin improved the response time of the transmission. The Vanquish S also features a new body kit composed of exposed carbon fibre, diamond-turned alloy wheels and carbon bonnet louvres. The seats are upholstered in Bridge of Weir Caithness leather." The source says the torque was unchanged. A couple of phrases are repeated: "a new bodykit in exposed carbonfibre" is in the source -- I don't think I know what a bodykit is, but if it just means bodywork then this could be rephrased a little more. Some of the phrases that are repeated would be pretty hard to reword -- e.g. "carbon bonnet louvres". However, if I understand the source correctly, some of the items listed are options, so we shouldn't phrase this as though they were standard -- e.g. the Bridge of Weir Caithness leather.
FN 29 cites "Compared to the DBS, the torsional rigidity of the car was enhanced by 25 per cent due to the incorporation of a carbon fibre subframe and a large, extruded cross-member." Verified.
FN 62 cites "Its maximum speed remains unchanged, but its 0 to 100 km/h (62 mph) acceleration has been changed to 4.2 seconds. Weighing 1,844 kilograms (4,065 lb), the Vanquish Volante is 105 kilograms (231 lb) heavier than the coupe and 34 kilograms (75 lb) heavier than the DBS Volante. The convertible top of the Volante, which is made of triple-layer fabric, can open in fourteen seconds. The car has a boot space capacity of 279 litres (9.9 cu ft). The suspension system was adjusted to accommodate the added weight. As with the coupe, its standard three-stage adaptive damping system offers normal, sport, and track modes, which also adjust the electronic stability control and throttle response." Verified.
FN 31 cites "The Vanquish features anti-roll bars and double wishbone suspension supported by coil springs." Verified.
FN 73 cites "Aston Martin debuted the roadster version—called the Vanquish Zagato Volante—at the 2016 edition of the Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance". Verified, but the source says "convertible" rather than "roadster"; can you confirm that the two terms are interchangeable in British English?
FN 27 cites "The car's structure, which is thirty per cent stiffer and lighter than that of its predecessor, is composed of aluminium whilst its bodywork is made of carbon fibre." The source has "the aluminium structure is clothed in an all-carbonfibre body (30% stiffer and lighter too)". This is difficult to rephrase, so I'm not to concerned about the similarities here, but can we be sure the "stiffer and lighter" refers only to the alumninium? It seems it could be referring to the carbon fibre, or even to both.
The GA you reviewed was from a while back (the reason i opened the GA was mostly to see the results), not even i thought it was a good article. Anyways here are my responses
54: I removed “August”. 0-60 is about the same as 0-62.
65: a bodykit is not the same as bodywork. other concerns should be fixed
73: convertible is more understandable, so i have changed that.
27: the DBS, the Vanquish’s predecessor did not use carbon fibre in its construction, so it would most likely be talking about the aluminium. I’ve reworded this.
It's reassuring to hear that the GA wasn't characteristic of your work, though I think most GA reviewers would prefer it if the nominator checked any old articles reasonably thoroughly before nominating them. Anyway, I agree these issues are not so concerning. I've struck out most points above, but I think there are still issues with the first one -- please take a look. When that's done I'll do another spotcheck.
Mike Christie (
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contribs -
library)
17:10, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The article still says the maximum speed remained unchanged. Yes, 60 and 62 are very close, but I don't think we can use one to cite the other. Those are the only two points remaining from this spotcheck. I'll go ahead with the second spot check, probably first thing tomorrow.
Mike Christie (
talk -
contribs -
library)
01:46, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Second spotcheck. Footnote numbers refer to
this version.
FNs 75 & 76 cite "At the 2017 edition of the Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance, Aston Martin unveiled the Vanquish Zagato Speedster; 28 units were manufactured." Verified; optional, but you might move FN 75 to the end of the sentence. FN 76 does verify those last four words, but it's going to be easy for that citation to get detached since it's after the following sentence.
FN 45 cites 'John Simister of the newspaper The Independent criticised the car's two small rear seats, describing them "largely pointless", but he noted that the engine sounded "magnificently crisp and rich"'. Verified.
FNs 17 & 18 cite "At the 2012 edition of the Concorso d'Eleganza Villa d'Este in May, Aston Martin revealed a concept car called the Project AM310 Concept." Verified, but should "Concept" be capitalized? It doesn't seem to be in the sources.
FN 4 cites "The car's aluminium structure remains largely unchanged from the DBS, DB9 and Rapide, except for a redesigned front-end that is significantly lighter. This allows the engine to be mounted 0.7 inches (18 mm) lower than in the DBS." The source has "the aluminum structure remains largely the same as the DBS’s (and DB9’s and Vantage’s and Rapide’s), the front-end structure is significantly lighter and is redesigned to allow the engine to mount 0.7 inch lower than in the DBS". I think this is too close a paraphrase.
FNs 55 & 56 cite "The Vanquish's interior incorporates a tilt-telescoping steering wheel, bi-xenon headlamps, LED tail-lights, hand-stitched leather and Alcantara, power front seats with memory, and cooling and heating systems. Its connectivity features include Bluetooth, satellite radio and compatibility with USB and iPod. Other standard features include a thirteen-speaker Bang & Olufsen sound system." I don't see that it says "hand-stitched" anywhere on these pages, and I can't see any mention of iPod connectivity, though I might easily have missed both.
I'm going to stop there and not pass or fail this spotcheck; I'll leave it up to the coordinators to decide if they want to pursue this any further. The close paraphrasing I found this time is not terrible but I think it could be done better.
Mike Christie (
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contribs -
library)
12:15, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
While the issues don't seem to be too grave, the article still needs to be free from any discrepancy for it be considered for promotion.
750h+, I recommend that you go through the entirety of the sources again and once you're done, another spot-check should be done (by Mike if he's up for it or by someone else).
FrB.TG (
talk)
13:48, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I've taken on quite a bit of other work and would rather not add this, so I suggest adding it to the request list on WT:FAC for someone else to pick up. Might be as well to get a different pair of eyes on it anyway.
Mike Christie (
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contribs -
library)
18:08, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Comments by Epicgenius
I will look at this later. The nominator asked me to take a look on my talk page, but the comments I'll be leaving shortly are entirely my own. –
Epicgenius (
talk)
13:27, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Lead:
Para 1: "The second generation of the Aston Martin Vanquish is a grand touring car produced between 2012 and 2018 by the British automaker Aston Martin." - This wording makes it sound like the second generation is a grand touring car (whereas the first generation isn't), even if this is not the case. I suggest rephrasing to "The second generation of the Aston Martin Vanquish, a grand touring car, was produced between 2012 and 2018 by the British automaker Aston Martin."
Para 2: "previewed by a concept car called the "Project AM310"" - I don't know how it is in British English, but in American English that would be a very strange way to use the word "previewed". Usually we'd just say that the Vanquish's prototype was the Project AM310.
Para 2: "The Vanquish is based upon the same architecture of the DB9," - I would condense to "The Vanquish is based upon the DB9's architecture," since "same" is redundant here.
Para 3: "A more significantly modified version, called the Vanquish S, was launched in 2016" - Could you mention a few examples of these modifications?
In general, there are a lot of sentences that begin with "In [Date]". E.g. " At the 2005 edition", "In 2007", "At the 2012 edition", "In June 2012". If there aren't any other historical details that you can add, then I suggest mixing up your sentence structure. For example, you can put the date at the end of the sentence (such as "Aston Martin unveiled the DB9, a model initially designed by Ian Callum and completed by Henrik Fisker, at the Frankfurt Motor Show in 2004"). Alternatively, you can rephrase to avoid unnecessarily repeating the year. For example, "In June 2012" can be "That June", since the previous sentence already mentions June.
Para 1: I notice that the DB9, Vantage, and DBS are mentioned, but the Vantage isn't further elaborated upon in the text. How does the 2012 Vanquish relate to the Vantage?
Both addressed. The Vantage relates to the Vanquish in the way that they are both based upon the VH platform. The VH platform is used by the Rapide, DBS, DB9, Vantage, Vanquish, and a few others. Using this platform means that the cars share a significant number of their parts. I didn’t mention the Vantage later because there wasn’t need to.
750h+03:55, 13 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Yet another cookery book writer from history for your entertainment. This time it's an Elizabethan lady whose manuscript was handed down through generations and it was over 380 years between writing and publication. –
SchroCat (
talk)
15:59, 19 June 2024 (UTC)reply
In footnote h, shouldn't "fettiplace" be capitalized?
I'm sorry, but I think I'm going to have to regettably oppose on the grounds that I don't think there's really a sufficient need to have a separate article here, rather than a section at Elinor Fettiplace's Receipt Book. About half of the article is about the book.
Taking a further look - the content for Fettiplace's biography is supported by footnotes 1 - 20. All but four of those citations are to the Fettiplace/Spurling cookbook. Of those four - Clark supports a monetary conversion, Pevsner and Historic England support a description of Appleton Manor, and Dickson Wright supports a statement about the customs of guest feeding at Christmastime. As none of these statements are actually about Fettiplace, we're at a situation where we have a potential FA biography where the entire biographical content of the article is sourced to a single source, and I don't think we can have an article compliant with the FA criteria in that case. If the Spurling/Fettiplace book is truly all that is written about Mrs. Fettiplace biographically, then I don't think there's a basis for a second article separate from the one about the cookbook.
This is a remarkably well-written article, but I think there's issues here that are too foundational. I recognize that "this subject is fundamentally incapable of being turned into a featured article due to the nature of the underlying sourcing" isn't exactly an actionable oppose that you can work with, but I will let @
FAC coordinators:
be the judge as to if this oppose should be discounted or not.
Hog FarmTalk14:21, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Hi Hog Farm, Thanks for your comment; I've sat on this article for four years wondering about FAC, mostly because of the same point as your comment. I decided to run with it after looking at it critically: it's mostly from two sources, rather than one, albeit both are by the same person. One is from Spurling's book; the other is from the ONDB entry she wrote (although Dickson Wright was speaking specifically of Fettiplace, rather than general Christmas traditions for well-connected families).I would argue that despite the biography being from two sources/one person, it still fulfils
the criteria as it is still a "thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature", given there are no other reliable and high-quality quality secondary sources that examine Fettiplace's life (as opposed to her cookery book). If there were other such sources, I would hold my hands up and withdraw straight away, but Spurling's two works constitute the full biographical output on the subject.Fettiplace was a separate entity to her book, with a rich and full life that went beyond keeping a cookery book, so I really do believe quite strongly that she should have a separate article from her book. I'm happy to let the co-ords mull this over, as well as anyone else who wishes to chip in. -
SchroCat (
talk)
14:55, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
My first thoughts as a FAC coordinator and a Wikilawyer are that any article is required to meet the FAC criteria and "the policies regarding content for all Wikipedia articles". "I don't think there's really a sufficient need to have a separate article here" does not fit under either, IMO. However, "it should be AFDed" does. There is no requirement that the article be AfDed, but a reviewer could base an oppose on an opinion that a nominated article would or should be. If Hog Farm cared to tweak their oppose into this format - perhaps arguing that it is a content fork or fails separate notability - that would be valid. Currently I might draw the inference that that is what they are basing their oppose on, but linking it explicitly to a policy or two would help me as a coordinator. And would overcome the this "isn't exactly an actionable oppose that you can work with" issue.
Hog Farm, fancy doing that?
Gog the Mild (
talk)
15:52, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Gog the Mild - Yes, I feel strongly that this is a
WP:CONTENTFORK. I also disagree with the idea that the two Spurling works should count as separate sources - see note 4 of
WP:N where it states "Similarly, a series of publications by the same author or in the same periodical is normally counted as one source." I do think this article is a net positive to the encyclopedia and are appreciative of
SchroCat for working on this, but especially after
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Don Bradman with the Australian cricket team in England in 1948 (where a nest of content forks, some of which were FAs, was all redirected) I just can't support a content fork based on the work of a single author for FAC. I don't want to cause any hard feelings, but I just can't support this on principal.
Hog FarmTalk19:11, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Have you found any reliable sources on Fettiplace’s life that have been missed out? If not, then it’s a "thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature". I would disagree strongly that it’s a content fork. Writers like Fettiplace had a life apart from their works. We may as well just dump a whole stack of articles and get the women writers back in the kitchen with no real examination of their lives or the context of their works. -
SchroCat (
talk)
19:29, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
There are now three sources that deal directly with Fettiplace's life, putting it outside the
WP:N restrictions (ie. it meets GNG guidelines);
As someone has pointed out below,
WP:ANYBIO comes into play, which puts the onus more towards inclusion than not (although there is some wiggle room). As this article has a corresponding ODNB entry, there is a strong case for inclusion, which would render an AfD moot. -
SchroCat (
talk)
07:11, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The ANYBIO argument is compelling; I'm going to strike my oppose for now. I hope to be able to finish my review soon but the next several weeks will be very busy for me no guarantees on when I can get to this.
Hog FarmTalk14:11, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
"His memorial stone in St Kenelm's Church outlines his status from the view of her importance and ancestry" - should this be at St. Kenelm's Church given the phrasing change made for the similar concern I raised above?
Hog FarmTalk00:14, 3 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I think it could be made a bit more explicit that Rogers had wealth and position (presumably derivative from Elinor) as I would have expected it to be with her marrying a man described in the article as a commoner. I do think I can support here though. Apologies for taking so long to finish this.
Hog FarmTalk13:42, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The 'wealth and position' point is my OR only (sorry - I really should have made that clear in my comment), and - again some more OR - it may have been a result of her wealth and position, rather than his. Unfortunately, the sources are sadly lacking on any description of him. That may not be too surprising, as we're looking at a non-notable individual who died over 400 years ago!Many thanks for the review, and no worries about the timeframe - it was all worth waiting for. Cheers -
SchroCat (
talk)
14:04, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Comments
"in the Vale of White Horse, (then in Berkshire, now in Oxfordshire)." - don't think the comma after Horse is needed
"Elinor had two sisters—both younger—Frances and Dorothy" - could simply say "two younger sisters"
"with farming area" - this doesn't seem to make sense, are there words missing?
"and across approaching Herefordshire" - this doesn't really seem to make sense either
"Spurling concludes Fettiplace was" => "Spurling concludes that Fettiplace was"
According to the current edition of Fowler's Modern English Usage, "Omission of the conjunction that is standard"; it's not needed and just personal preference. -
SchroCat (
talk)
07:37, 20 June 2024 (UTC)reply
"the social historian Janet Theophano suggests Fettiplace began" => "the social historian Janet Theophano suggests that Fettiplace began"
I peer reviewed the article and my few queries were dealt with then. A handful of new quibbles after rereading for FAC:
"Their eldest child John was born in 1590" – this needs a couple of commas: "Their eldest child, John, was born in 1590", otherwise they had other children also called John.
The authorlink for the Spurling book looks a bit odd: if you click on "Elinor Fettiplace" you are taken to Hilary Spurling's article.
No further questions m'lud. Happy to support: the article seems to me to meet all the FAC criteria – it's a splendid read, well proportioned, thoroughly referenced, evidently balanced and impartial, and nicely illustrated. Tim riley talk08:34, 20 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The Sapperton church memorial photo makes me slightly sad: it's a lovely photo, but just a bit squint to really suit our purposes. It might be an idea to
ask on Commons whether someone could take a front-on image, focusing particularly (if this is possible) on the depiction of Fettiplace? It would then make an excellent lead image (perhaps even in an infobox, at the risk of starting a fight...) -- while not a hard-and-fast requirement, it is good to have an image of the subject in the lead of a biography if we can.
and the surname given as variously as Fettyplace, Feteplace, Phetiplace, ffeteplace and Ffetiplact, among others (note a): I think we need is given or else and with the surname. I'd apply
MOS:WORDSASWORDS to these names as well, as we're talking about the names themselves rather than the person who held them.
upper class land-owning farming family: if one hyphen is good, two are better: upper-class should have one for the same reason that land-owning does.
In common with many ladies of the Elizabethan era, Fettiplace wrote a manuscript book, now known under the title Elinor Fettiplace's Receipt Book: precisely how many other ladies wrote a manuscript book now known under that title?
Many will have made receipt books, but I think we have to give the full and formal name of the book, given it was wasn't named in the 380 years between being written and published. -
SchroCat (
talk)
08:19, 21 June 2024 (UTC)reply
until it was handed to the husband of the writer Hilary Spurling.: I'd put a date on this. We do put a ballpark on it in the next sentence, but it's odd to make the reader wait.
We don’t know when it was given to Spurling. One presumes the 70s or 80s, but all that is known is that it was published in 1986. -
SchroCat (
talk)
04:53, 21 June 2024 (UTC)reply
That's fair enough: could we say "in the twentieth century", "the twentieth-century writer..." or similar? Otherwise, could we move the publication date earlier in the sentence? UndercoverClassicistT·
C08:23, 21 June 2024 (UTC)reply
There are a lot of dashes in the first paragraph of "Life", which makes for a slightly breathless, Emily-Dickinson feel. Could easily and more concisely do Elinor had two sisters—both younger—Frances and Dorothy as Elinor had two younger sisters, Frances and Dorothy, for example.
with farming land down to Wiltshire: I would suggest farmland: there's a slight infelicity here brought on by the grammatical (though not meaningful) ambiguity as to whether farming is acting as a gerund ("the farming of land") or an adjective ("land for farming").
farming land down to Wiltshire: the cadence of this bit is wonderful. Could perhaps add a map of the West Country here? Might also wish to reorder a little (assuming that it is Herefordshire and not Hertfordshire you mean): you've taken us on a lovely ramble south-east from Gloucestershire, landed us in Berkshire, then quite sharply yanked us back to the Welsh borders.
I'll think about a map, although without knowing the extent or boundaries of their land, a map is of rather limited use. I've reworded though, so it moves more logically. -
SchroCat (
talk)
09:49, 21 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The family was well-connected within the upper classes: we wouldn't normally use a hyphen here, as the compound modifier isn't in apposition ("it was a hard-won victory" but "the victory was hard won").
Suggest giving inflation or context to the monetary amounts (I think her dowry was a lot of money in those days?)
Two of their daughters died as infants and a third aged 16.:
MOS:NUM would like consistency.
Their son Henry was born in c.1602: in circa is a tautology, but I'd advise not using abbreviations in flowing text anyway and saying in about 1602, born around 1602 or similar.
It is possible there was a fourth daughter, but the point is unclear: can we footnote the reason for the confusion?
The cite on Spurling and Fettiplace needs a look: I can see what you're thinking here, but the parameters are stretching to breaking point. We can't have a work co-authored by a C20th author and give it an original date in the C17th. While the manuscript was published then, the edited volume published by Penguin wasn't (it would be like me putting "[c. 750 BCE] on an edition of the Homeric Hymns) Suggest only crediting Fettiplace as the author and using the |editor= or |others= parameters to explain Spurling's role? If Spurling wrote a contribution, I'd cite it separately to the book itself and use the |contributor= param. This would also avoid the current ambiguity as to whether we're citing Spurling's research or an autobiographical passage by Fettiplace: the latter would be a dicey under
WP:HQRS and
WP:PRIMARY.
I've separated out the introduction into a separate entry; the main text we have to leave as both Fettiplace and Spurling. The book will give some background from Spurling, then a recipe from Fettiplace, then more discussion from Spurling, so it's input from both of them intertwined throughout. Still, it's now clear the introductory essay from Spurling is now a separate entry in the sources and citations. -
SchroCat (
talk)
09:04, 21 June 2024 (UTC)reply
It's a tricky one: I think your solution here is pretty good. I suppose the only thing to suggest is using the |loc= parameter or similar in the footnotes to indicate which author is "speaking" (e.g. to mark Spurling's commentary with "author's note to page 10" or similar). UndercoverClassicistT·
C11:03, 21 June 2024 (UTC)reply
It’s not an author’s note, though, or at least to describe it as such would be misleading. It’s within the main text of the book. I think we could go too far in identifying the author when the text is so intermingled, and think what we have may be the best option. -
SchroCat (
talk)
05:42, 22 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I haven't seen the text itself, but surely it's clear which of Fetterplace or Spurling is "speaking" at any given point? The issue here is that one of those voices passes
WP:HQRS and one doesn't: Fetterplace is not independent of Fetterplace, and so the entire book would have to be used strictly within
WP:PRIMARY,
WP:ABOUTSELF and so on (which it currently isn't), unless we can demonstrate to the reader that those concerns don't apply to the part of the text we're citing. Is there not some form of Spurling's commentary, editor's remarks, introduction to... and so on that would be close enough for the purpose? UndercoverClassicistT·
C08:26, 22 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I’m not ignoring this! I’m at friends this weekend and away from the text. I think I know how to sort this, but need to work on it when I’m back with the text. -
SchroCat (
talk)
10:16, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
OK: all now sorted, showing it's mostly Spurlig's text we're reliant upon, but also noting where Fettiplace is being quoted. -
SchroCat (
talk)
14:56, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
We're inconsistent about who gets an introduction and who doesn't: Pevsner does, even though we'd expect an architectural historian to be giving opinions on architectural history, but e.g. Charles Estienne and Henry Danvers don't.
Being picky, there's no such thing as being "II* listed": we always say e.g. "Grade II* listed".
Is there a language tag for early modern English? I can imagine these quotes would play hell with a screen reader.
she continued the practice even after she married a commoner and he had died. His memorial stone in St Kenelm's Church outlines his status from the view of her importance and ancestry: is this Edward Rogers? I'd spell it out if so.
Details of her death are unclear, but it was in or after 1647: again, I think it would be nice to share with readers how we know this, if only in a footnote.
Spurling concludes Fettiplace was an "efficient and practised manager" in the way she ran her household and, when her husband was absent, the family estate, was interested in modern cookery, and had a "cautious and considerate approach" to dispensing the medicines she prepared: this one runs on a bit; I find it loses its coherence slightly after ran her household. Suggest breaking up a little.
Sir John Horner, who was immortalised: I think immortalised might be a bit flowery for an encyclopaedia.
I'm not sure I see the point of the aside "To wash gould and coloured silk, but I'm very willing to be convinced.
Sir Walter Raleigh provided a recipe for "Syrup of Tobacco", used to sooth lung trouble, or curing a long-held cough, and "Tobacco Water", and John Hall, a physician and the son-in-law of William Shakespeare, provided a method of stopping nosebleeds: the two "ands" (each meaning something slightly different) make things awkward here: I think it would be wise to split this sentence up.
Among the other medicinal entries included in the book, were eleven remedies: no comma here.
including in around Oxfordshire and Berkshire in 1604: either in and around or simply around. Does Shrewsbury actually say that it was unsurprising? I'm not disputing that it's unsurprising that people would want one, but I'm a little surprised to find one in a cookbook.
Spurling concludes that the recipes were, for the time, modern, and embraced new tastes and styles: clearer as modern for the time and [that they] embraced...
Not quite outdated, though on the way there: this is from the current (2015) edition of Fowler: medieval, mediaeval. The second is now rapidly passing out of use in favour of the shorter version, which is much more often used. In the original 1926 edition the old boy wrote that it "seems advisable" to use the shorter spelling, rendering the ligature as a single letter in medi(a)eval, ph(a)enomenon, (o)ecumenical, p(a)edagogy and so forth, though not, for reasons he doesn't make altogether clear, in homoeopathy, diarrhoea, Boeotian and Oedipus. I've just twigged that we are approaching the centenary of the first edition. I hope the OUP will mark it with a new edition. Tim riley talk07:57, 21 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Her book contains a recipe for meringues (which she called "White biskit bread"), which pre-dates the appearance in French recipe books in François Massialot's 1692 work Nouvelle instruction pour les confitures.: something's gone wonky here. Suggest "which predates their first appearance in French recipe books, in François Massialot's 1692 work...}}
French text needs to be in a language template.
Dersin 1998 doesn't strike me as a very scholarly source: I don't recognise the publisher but it has the general feel of a school textbook to me.
Happy enough here given the weight that it's bearing, which is simply to show that good publications have drawn on Fettiplace's work (though see my note on SYNTH below). UndercoverClassicistT·
C08:27, 22 June 2024 (UTC)reply
the work has been used as a source in several such published works: do any of the cited sources actually say that? Per
WP:SYNTH, we shouldn't simply cite examples of this happening to support a claim like this, though I'd probably be happy enough with a footnote that says "For example", and then goes through them.
Caps: the two news sources use different schemes:
MOS:CONFORM would like us to pick one.
Consider giving the series for Pevsner's book, so that we can see that it isn't just a one-off book on a county.
I think I've covered all these (except where commented on), but please let me know if I've missed out on any. Thanks as always for your comments. Cheers -
SchroCat (
talk)
09:49, 21 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Hi
UC, Just a gentle nudge on this to see if you have any more thoughts or comments?
LEvalyn - including source review
To comment on the content fork issue -- inclusion in the ODNB is an automatic pass of
WP:ANYBIO, so I don't see how an AfD could be successful. I suppose it could still be a content fork from a
WP:PAGEDECIDE angle-- but that would be more persuasive to me if
Elinor Fettiplace's Receipt Book was about the manuscript book, whereas it's actually about a 1986 publication by Spurling, who, e.g., curated & cooked the recipes, and contextualized it in the 20thC study of Elizabethan history.
Anyway, I thought I'd try my hand at some of the source review!
I don't have access to the main Spurling book, so I'll aim to check some of the others.
Checked ODNB -- all the citations check out.
On a normal day the manor would provide for between twenty and thirty people - ODBN says this includes "servants, retainers, and dependants as well as her own two sons and three daughters", maybe give some indication of that? Otherwise my natural inclination is that servants and retainers aren't "counted"! Though Dickson Wright p. 150 says "At least twenty people would have sat down to eat" and is not counting the servants...
Checked the citation to Wall 2015, p. 191; looks good. Wall mentions here that the book had the Poole crest stamped in gold on the cover, which is cool.
Checked all the citations to Dickson Wright 2011, looks good. The source talks about Fettiplace for quite a while but I think you made the right call in leaving most of this out.
Dickson Wright also mentions that the book cover is "stamped in gold with ... the fleur-de-lys of the Poole coat of arms" (p 150), worth including?
OK, important: p 149-150 Dickson Wright describes her as a rich heiress with a family fortune from wool, and says the Fettiplaces were heavily mortgaged -- which contradicts the article's description of the Pooles as heavily mortgaged. It also calls this part into question for me, which I find confusingly written to begin with: the dowry may have come with conditions that her new in-laws put their finances in order by selling some of their land. Dickson Wright quite clearly frames the marriage as one where Elinor brings money and the Fettiplaces bring prestige & an old name. Dickson Wright post-dates Spurling quite substantially so I'd ordinarily trust the newer source. Thoughts?
I found
a Masters thesis not cited in the article, but I think it's an appropriate exclusion. Masters theses are often of borderline reliability, and every single statement about Fettiplace is simply cited to Spurling.
However, the thesis says this, which is interesting: "Elinor Fettiplace had enough resources to have the main body of her receipt book written out by the scribe Anthony Bridges, who apprenticed in her father’s house, and only the marginalia is written in her own hand" -- it's cited to Spurling 21, and seems like a detail worth including if you can find it there.
Is there some nicer way to format the citation to "Appleton Manor, Appleton-with-Eaton – 1198061". Historic England." ? It looks out of place. But the content checks out.
It's the same format as the "Receipt and recipe" one, which is how I normally do them: it's the webpage title followed by the publishing organisation. Historic England have a rather ugly way of displaying their webpages, unfortunately.
Other thoughts:
Appleton estate was largely self-sufficient should this be the Appleton estate?
Footnote H is so useful in clarifying what's known about her death, should it go directly in the article? I don't see much reason to assume she died in 1647
Overall, I feel like I need to be more convinced about who was heavily mortgaged, but otherwise this is a very polished and thorough article. My other notes are not deal-breakers, just thoughts to refine the article further. I expect I will be ready to support soon.
~ L 🌸 (
talk)
06:55, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
What a fast response! This looks great, except I feel like the sentence the dowry may have come with conditions that her new in-laws put their finances in order by selling some of their land is still confusing/ambiguous. I keep changing my mind about who the two “their”s refer to. Can you revisit this phrasing? All the rest of my concerns thus far have been addressed.
~ L 🌸 (
talk)
19:59, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
That makes it clearer to me, thanks! I am happy to support the FA. I don't have concerns about the sourcing based on what I examined, but if there is a desire for more source review of the ones I didn't look at (I am new to FAC and not sure of the norms) let me know and I could check a few more. Thanks for this article!
~ L 🌸 (
talk)
20:56, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Joeyquism
@
SchroCat: I should get to this in the coming week or so; feel free to liberally ping me if I don't somehow get to this in a timely manner. I should also re-mention that
Album covers of Blue Note Records is now open for comments at
its own FAC - I was very glad to have received your helpful comments on its peer review, and would appreciate if you were to give it another look (or skim - neither are obligatory).
joeyquism (
talk)
22:48, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Hi {{u|joeyquism}], Many thanks. Don't worry: I've seen Blue Note pop up and it's on my list of things to get to. Hopefully it won't be too much longer before I'm there. Cheers -
SchroCat (
talk)
06:30, 13 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Mario Party DS is the second handheld game in the Mario Party series and the only installment in the series originally released for the
Nintendo DS. I've already successfully nominated the article for
good article status, and I feel that subsequent revisions/additions I've made to the page have only enhanced its clarity; for instance, the caption in the article's infobox has been changed from North American packaging artwork, depicting Mario, Luigi, Toad, Wario, Waluigi, Princess Peach, Princess Daisy, Yoshi and Bowser on the stage Toadette's Music Room to North American packaging artwork, depicting Mario, Luigi, Toad, Wario, Waluigi, Princess Peach, Princess Daisy, Yoshi, and Bowser on the Toadette's Music Room board for more consistency with the use of the
serial comma within the article, as well as better indication that "Toadette's Music Room" is in fact the name of a board in the game. Naturally, I look forward to feedback for this FA nomination, and I would be willing to make any necessary changes to the article.
★ The Green Star Collector ★ (
talk)
00:32, 18 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Review by Hurricanehink
Big fan of this series! I figured I’d review since
I have an ongoing FAC and needed something light and game like to read this morning. I haven’t played the DS version, so I’m curious how this stacks up.
”It is the second handheld game in the Mario Party series” - worth linking
Handheld game console?
”The game has sold over nine million units, making it the 11th best-selling game for the Nintendo DS.” - the source doesn’t say the 11th best selling for DS, so could find a source for that?
”Much like other games in the series, Mario Party DS allows up to four players to compete in an interactive board game.” - small nitpick, but can you play with only two or three players? I thought every MP game was four players.
”rolling dice to move between one and 10 spaces at a time” - another small nitpick, but when two numbers are used in the same sentence, I prefer they’re written in the same style, so “ten” not “10”
I see that other MP games’ articles capitalize “Star”, but is there a reason why? Especially sentences that mention coin and Stars, it’s just odd with that capitalization.
”Once there are five turns remaining, an event known as the "Final 5 Frenzy" occurs in which Bowser aids the player in last place by giving them coins or a Star, depending on the outcome of a roulette.“ - ref 11 doesn’t mention the Final 5 Frenzy (but rather Bowser helping halfway through?), and I don’t recognize that from other games by that name. Also, is it really Bowser? Other games have Koopa Troopa (and not King Koopa) giving that.
I love that there are five bosses, I didn’t know MP had that! Aside from Bowsers, who are the others? Idk if worth mentioning, but I’m curious. (Petey Piranha, Big Boo, Dry Bones, and Kamek I’m guessing…. And it appears I’m right!)
I see ref 18 citing part of the plot section. What about refs for the rest of the section?
I take it the game isn’t available on the Switch?
I appreciated the Japan sales figures, but anything for any other areas?
All in all, a good read! The game sounds interesting how it’s a bit different on the DS. The microphone aspect was unexpected, I can’t imagine how that was used (not that you need to go into detail on that). Let me know if you have any questions, but I hope none of these comments are too difficult.
Hurricanehink mobile (
talk)
17:09, 18 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Thank you very much for your feedback! Here's a few notes in return:
I have linked two known instances of "
handheld game" in the article.
To my knowledge, it is possible to play with only two or three players, except in Story Mode and certain modes that require all four players.
Every instance of "Star" is actually capitalized in-game, while most if not all instances of "coin" are not. I'm not sure why, but that's just the way it is with most titles in the series.
The recurring event is in fact known as "Final 5 Frenzy" in this game, and although it is hosted by Koopa Troopa in several other games in the series, it is hosted by Bowser here.
You're mostly correct with the bosses in the game—Piranha Plant, Hammer Bro, Dry Bones, Kamek, and Bowser, in that order.
The game is currently not available on the
Nintendo Switch, though the first few games in the series are available via the Nintendo Switch Online service.
The reference that's currently used in that section actually appears to summarize the game's entire story mode (it even includes dialogue from some of the cutscenes), so if anything, it could probably just be moved to the end of the section.
★ The Green Star Collector ★ (
talk)
19:22, 20 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Yea if the reference covers that all, I’d love if the whole plot section could be sourced. I don’t like supporting articles for FAC if there’s any section without a reference.
Hurricanehink mobile (
talk)
21:15, 20 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Support on source review. Found no issues with sourcing or ref formatting. The Nintendo sources should be fine per
WP:ABOUTSELF, as the claims are not that big of a deal (i.e. they are not contentious). lunaeclipse(
talk)00:46, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
References mostly seem to look okay. I do have a couple of recommendations, though. I initially got confused about the "Nintendo of Europe, 2007" refs until I noticed that this is meant to be Ref 9 re-used a couple of times. Instead of adding them as a ref, I recommend re-using Ref 9 with the {{sfn}} template. If you don't know how, move the Ref 9 to a new subsection in the References section and use the {{sfn}} template at places where it is used in the text (e.g. {{sfn|Nintendo of Europe|2007|p=17}}).
Is it possible to expand Refs 24 and 27?
The director, producers, designers, programmer, artist, and composers (present in the infobox) are unsourced.
"Much like other games in the series" → specify, "Much like other games in the Mario Party series" then unlink Mario Party in the fifth paragraph.
The rest of the text appears to be in a good shape.
Unsure whether it is relevant enough to be included in the article, but you can add the fact that it costed $34.99 (ref: {{cite news |title=Party games make their way to the Wii |agency=[[The Associated Press]] |publisher=[[Gainesville Sun]] |date=29 December 2007 |page=2A}})
Thanks for your feedback! I've done my best to take all of it into consideration:
Used the {{sfn}} template where I felt it was appropriate
I looked into both the Nintendo Power and Famitsu references, but was unable to find either of them online.
The director, producers, designers, programmer, artist, and composers in the infobox are now sourced (and a couple of previously unnoticed typos were corrected).
The phrase has been altered and Mario Party unlinked later in the section.
I'm not sure if there would be a good place to insert the price information, unless it could be worked somewhere into the "Sales" subsection.
Okay. You can remove the reference considering that the reference next to it (Ref 30 also) cites Famitsu as a source with 1,730,191 copies sold as of 30 July 2008.
Vacant0(
talk •
contribs)22:32, 2 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I won't actually have time to review it at the moment, but I just wanted to ask, is such a long caption normal for infobox images? I feel like the identify of the characters featured on the box art would be better served as alt text. -
Cukie Gherkin (
talk)
10:24, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
This article is about volcanic activity at a group of volcanoes in northwestern British Columbia, Canada, that has existed for the last 7.5 million years or more. Volcanoguy14:55, 16 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
750h+: I think your opinion is flawed. You haven't provided any evidence that this article fails 1c you just have a feeling that it does. I'm not aware of anything that claims some sources can't be used more than others. Souther 1992 is a 320 page document so of course it's going to be cited a lot. Volcanoguy17:09, 21 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
750h+: Citing an author (or even a source) frequently does not fail 1c. The article not being well researched would do so. @
Volcanoguy has written for Wikipedia about this volcanic complex and has said this author is the one who has researched it most. it is logical, then, that this author would be more cited than any others.
Do you plan to do a source review, or is this high-level comment the extent of your work on this FAC. If you are not intending to do a source review, I will proceed with it. –
Elizabeth (Eewilson) (tag or ping me) (
talk)
00:38, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment. Regarding concerns about 1c of
WP:FACR the reason this article cites Souther a lot is because he was the only volcanologist who studied the MEVC in detail. As a result, his publications are significantly more detailed than others published since 1992. I've searched Google Scholar and elsewhere thoroughly for information about volcanism of the MEVC and added the relevant sources. I'd dare anyone to prove me wrong. Volcanoguy14:32, 20 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Image review by Arconning
File:MEVC map.png - CC BY-SA 4.0
File:EdzizaTopo.jpg - Public Domain
File:Raspberry Formation.png - CC BY-SA 4.0
File:Little Iskut Formation.png - CC BY-SA 4.0
File:Armadillo Formation.png - CC BY-SA 4.0
File:Nido Formation.png - CC BY-SA 4.0
File:Spectrum Formation.png - CC BY-SA 4.0
File:Pyramid Formation cross section.png - CC BY-SA 4.0
File:Ice Peak Formation.png - CC BY-SA 4.0
File:Pillow Ridge Formation.png - CC BY-SA 4.0
File:Edziza042909-- 113-16.jpg - CC BY-SA 4.0
File:Edziza Formation.png - CC BY-SA 4.0
File:Outcast Hill cross section.png - CC BY-SA 4.0
File:Tahltan River mouth.png - Public Domain
File:Kakiddi Formation.png - CC BY-SA 4.0
File:Tennena Cone.jpg - CC BY 2.0
File:Nahta cone from east june 2006 (Spectrum Range).JPG - CC BY-SA 3.0
File:Mess Lake Lava Field.jpg - Public Domain
File:Edziza obsidian.jpg - Public Domain
All images have good alt-text and are relevant to the article.
Images have proper licenses, images with links to their sources are live.
Recusing to review. I will note here that this seems a very long article given the topic, and I will be watching to see if an appropriate summary style approach has been adopted.
There are a lot of helpful maps, which I like, but perhaps the article could start with a
Template:Location map style map locating the feature in Canada or North America for the reader?
"The first magmatic cycle between 12 and 5.3 million years ago ... the second magmatic cycle between 6 and 1 million years ago". One cannot help but note the 700,000 year overlap.
Why are "Mount Edziza volcanic complex" and "British Columbia" linked in the lead but not the first sentence of the main article?
I think it's optional to relink things in the main article, no? I'm pretty sure I remember reading that in one of the guidelines unless something has changed. Volcanoguy14:51, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The rule used to be that links should appear at first mention in both the lead and the article. This changed relatively recently to allow subsequent repeat links in the article "where readers might want to use them".
"Felsic pertains to magmatic rocks that are enriched in silicon, oxygen, aluminum, sodium and potassium." Grammar: you can have 'Felsic pertains to magmatic rocks that are rich in ...' (as in note b) or 'Felsic pertains to magmatic rocks that are enriched with ...'
"making it the second largest eruptive centre in the Northern Cordilleran Volcanic Province". This seems a slightly clumsy way of introducing the MEVC as part of the NCVP.
"is thought to result from rifting of the North American Cordillera driven by changes in relative plate motion between the North American and Pacific plates." Only likely to be understood by aficionados. Either simplify or unpack.
I don't see what's so hard to understand in this sentence. Rift even outside of geology means to break/crack and from my experience people usually know what a plate is. I would also like to note that other reviewers in previous FACs didn't find this sentence a problem (I used it other articles). Please explain what is so technical about it. Volcanoguy16:11, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I am hitting a surprisingly high number of issues given that I am only four paragraphs in. I note that the article has not been through either PR or GoCER, both of which would have been of benefit. I shall take a break, then pick a couple of random sections to sample, to see if it is just a rocky (pun intended) start.
Gog the Mild (
talk)
14:06, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I question whether some of the things you brought up are actual issues rather than just nitpicking. See my comments above. Volcanoguy15:08, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Given the responses and rereading my own comments I am leaning oppose, but will see what things are like elsewhere.
What's wrong with my responses? I don't have a problem with changing the text I just think maybe you're going a bit overboard on that one sentence about rifting and the plates. Volcanoguy18:20, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Second magmatic cycle and Nido eruptive period
The map is most helpful, perhaps label the two members?
"such that the lava flows formed two separate lava fields at each end of the volcanic complex." Do you mean that, four lava fields in total, or should it be 'such that the lava flows formed two separate lava fields, one at each end of the volcanic complex'?
"Three major volcanoes of the Tenchen Member were active during the Nido eruptive period, all of which have since been reduced to eroded remnants. Alpha Peak was the oldest of the three major volcanoes ..." I don't think it is necessary to repeat "three major volcanoes" in consecutive sentences; perhaps 'them' in the second?
"365 metres (1,198 feet)". Seems a bit
false precision, perhaps insert a "|sigfig=2"? There seem to be other conversions in the article where a false degree of precision has been introduced. A "sigfig sweep" should catch them
"An eroded remnant of this volcano comprises a prominent rock pinnacle". Can one use "comprises" here? Several things need to be involved to be comprised. Perhaps 'forms'?
A feature which puzzles me is the summary of each eruptive period in "Second magmatic cycle". I would suggest ending this section at "... into three distinct eruptive periods". The subsequent text immediately describes them.
The eruptive periods of the Mount Edziza volcanic complex are represented by the geological formations making up the complex that's why they're mentioned. Not all of the subsequent text is mentioned in the eruptive period sections. For example, the "Nido eruptive period" does not mention the fact that the Nido Formation is exposed along the Mess Creek Escarpment, nor does it mention the fact that the Nido Formation lava flows appear to have originated from several separate eruptive centres along the eastern margin of the MEVC. The "Spectrum eruptive period" doesn't mention the fact that the Spectrum Formation is almost entirely underlain by the Nido Formation and consists mostly of trachyte and rhyolite. The "Pyramid eruptive period" also doesn't mention the fact that the Pyramid Formation overlies the Nido Formation. Volcanoguy15:46, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Fifth magmatic cycle
"passive basaltic lava flows". What is a passive lava flow?
"Therefore, the MEVC has been demonstrated as a potential source for these two tephra layers along with Hoodoo Mountain, Heart Peaks and Level Mountain." I am struggling a bit with this sentence. I think it is "demonstrated". Is it being used in the sense of 'suggested'?
Citation 165 leads
this page. The cite is used to support:
"Fission track dating has yielded an age of 950 CE ± 6,000 years for the Sheep Track pumice" which I cannot see mentioned.
It is stated earlier in the article that only one eruption is known to have produced pumice during the fifth magmatic cycle and that was the Sheep Track eruption from the southwestern flank of Ice Peak near the end of the Big Raven eruptive period. In the "Eruptive history" tab being linked it clearly says that the eruption that occurred 0950 ± 6000 years ago produced pumice and came from the southwestern flank of Ice Peak. Click the date to see the details. Volcanoguy18:50, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"A small but violent VEI-3 eruption burst from the southwestern flank of Ice Peak near the end of the Big Raven eruptive period" which I cannot see supported.
"Willow twigs preserved in ejecta from Williams Cone have yielded a radiocarbon date of 610 CE ± 150 years." The source goives the date of the last eruption as 950 CE and does not mention willow twigs, carbon dating nor an error bar.
Citation 110 leads to
this page which is used to support:
"Eruptions during Big Raven time continued within the last 2,000 years, but the precise age of the latest one is unknown." The source states both "Last Known Eruption 950 CE" and "ending with felsic and basaltic eruptions as late about 1,000 years ago."
That's for the last known eruption of Mount Edziza, not the volcanic complex as a whole. The latest eruption of the complex may have came from The Ash Pit near the Spectrum Range since it may be the youngest feature. The source for the Spectrum Range gives unknown for the last known eruption. Volcanoguy19:59, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"These cones are of Holocene age and occur on Mount Edziza, in the Snowshoe and Desolation lava fields and adjacent to the Spectrum Range." Cones in the Desolation lava fields is not supported.
"Prior to collapse, the summit of Mount Edziza was at least 610 metres (2,000 feet) higher than its current elevation of 2,786 metres (9,140 feet)." Only the current elevation is supported. Possibly the missing support is in Souther p 21, is it possible to make that available to me?
Supported by Souther 1992. There's no link to Souther's document you have to download it from the Canadian government website; see the doi provided for the source. Volcanoguy19:59, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Overall: well written, reasonably graspable by a non-expert IMO, and if a little lengthy, within the bounds of summary style (bar the seeming redundancy noted in "Second magmatic cycle"). The source to text discrepancies need to be explained.
Gog the Mild (
talk)
17:53, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Comparing article source/citation list to original sources. Listed only if question or problem found.
Sources:
Lakeman, Thomas R.; Clague, John J.; et. al. (2008) – publisher in Wikipedia article given as "
NRC Research Press" which Wikilinks to a redirect to Canadian Science Publishing. Canadian Science Publishing seems to be the modern-day name (since 2010 according to its Wikipedia article) of the publisher, and is the name of the publisher used on the website where the article is located. Are you using NRC Research Press because it was the name of the publisher in 2008? If so, this is consistent with the instructions for the publisher parameter in template cite journal, which reads, "If the name of the publisher changed over time, use the name as stated in the publication or used at the time of the source's publication." Since I don't have the original journal article in front of me, just want to make sure it states the publisher as NRC Research Press.
Souther 1992 – It doesn't appear that Geological Survey of Canada is the publisher. It appears to be the first part of the work, which is Geological Survey of Canada, Memoir, 420. I think using cite report template is a better choice, report (using title param) is The Late Cenozoic Mount Edziza Volcanic Complex, British Columbia. With parameters I have set in this example, you get something that I think better reflects the publication.
{{Cite report |last1=Souther|first1=J. G.|author-link1=Jack Souther|title=The Late Cenozoic Mount Edziza Volcanic Complex, British Columbia| work=Geological Survey of Canada, Memoir |series=420| year=1992|isbn=0-660-14407-7|doi=10.4095/133497}}
If there is a publisher, you could/should add that parameter as well. The detailed
metadata page doesn't actually show a publisher. Perhaps it is Natural Resources Canada? If you can figure that out, add a publisher, too.
Souther, J. G. & Symons, D. T. A. (1974). Stratigraphy and paleomagnetism of Mount Edziza volcanic complex, northwest British Columbia. Geological Survey of Canada, Paper, 73-32.
https://doi.org/10.4095/102538
So in the cite report template, I think you want work to be Geological Survey of Canada, Paper and series to be 73-32. Publisher possibly Department of Energy, Mines and Resources?
Ref. 3:
map of Telegraph Creek – what does the A502 in your citation represent? I don't see it on the map.
A 502 is actually the name of the map; the series is 104 G. They're both provided in the top right corner of the map. Volcanoguy17:30, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Eewilson: It appears they have it the other way around on this map. On the Dease Lake topographic map they give 104 J for the map and A 502 as the series; you can see this
here. I'm not sure if the Telegraph Creek map details in this article should have 104 G for the map and A 502 as the series despite the map claiming otherwise. Volcanoguy00:11, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Done except I put Geological Survey of Canada in |work= and Open File in |series= since Open File and 1732 are together separately from Geological Survey of Canada in the report. Volcanoguy19:55, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Ref. 13: Edwards, Benjamin R.; Russell, James K.; Jicha, Brian; Singer, Brad S.; Dunnington, Gwen; Jansen, Robert (2021). "A 3 m.y. record of volcanism..." is available online with a CC license. Maybe add the DOI to your citation template.
https://doi.org/10.1130/2020.2548(12). Or possibly use chapter-url since it's an open access chapter. Because this is a chapter in a book, the book editors need to be cited as well. You can find them in detail in the Front Matter PDF accessible at this link:
https://pubs.geoscienceworld.org/gsa/books/book/2278/Untangling-the-Quaternary-Period-A-Legacy-of
Ref. 113: Skilling, I.; Edwards, B.; Hungerford, J.; Lamoreaux, K.; Endress, C.; Lloyd, A. (2006) – same question about page number(s) as with other conference (103). What is used as the source?
Ref. 182: Lamoreaux, K. A.; Skilling, I. P.; Endress, C.; Edwards, B.; Lloyd, A.; Hungerford, J. (2006) – same question about page number(s) as with other conferences (103 and 113). What is used as the source?
"five cycles of magmatic activity which were characterized by 13 periods of eruptive activity". "which were characterized by" does not make sense here. Maybe "in"?
"The 1,000-square-kilometre (390-square-mile) plateau". Is it almost exactly 1,000? If it is approximate then I suggest {{Convert|1000|km2|mi2|-2|adj=mid|abbr=off}} to round to 400.
"This volcanic complex comprises a broad, steep-sided, intermontane plateau that rises from a base elevation of 760 or 816 metres (2,500 or 2,675 feet).[5][9][10] A northerly-trending, elliptical, composite shield volcano consisting of multiple flat-lying lava flows forms the plateau. Four central volcanoes of felsic[a] composition overlie the plateau" This is confusing. You appear to say first that the whole complex is in one plateau, then that the plateau is one volcano, then that other volcanoes overlie the plateau.
"having increased the rate of magmatism in the Northern Cordilleran Volcanic Province" You are describing here the start of the volcanism, so what does it mean to say that it increased?
"Volcanism at the MEVC about 7 million years ago increased the rate of magmatism in the Northern Cordilleran Volcanic Province from 100,000 cubic metres (3,500,000 cubic feet) per year to 300,000 cubic metres (11,000,000 cubic feet) per year". In other words, volcanism in the Northern Cordilleran Volcanic Province occurred at a lower rate until the MEVC started erupting about 7 million years ago; the Northern Cordilleran Volcanic Province was already an area of volcanic activity before the MEVC existed. Volcanoguy02:55, 13 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"An eruption recurrence interval of 379 years has been calculated for the MEVC by dividing 11,000 years by the number of demonstrable Holocene eruptions". Presumably you mean the Holocene MEVC, but you imply the whole of it.
Magmatic cycles section. You do not need to keep repeating "second most productive", "third most productive" etc, just say that each cycle was less productive than the previous one.
You say that the first cycle occurred in three successive periods, the first from 12 to 5.4 mya, the second 7.2 mya, the third between 7 and 6 mya. Successive periods at the same time does not make sense.
It's a complex rather than a single volcano. Multiple volcanoes of the complex were active at different times, some longer than others. Volcanoguy00:31, 13 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"Volcanism of the Nido eruptive period was limited to the northern and southern ends of the MEVC". So the periods were not in specific areas or at successive times, so what does distinguish them? This is not explained.
Most of the periods occurred at successive times it's just that some of the older dates are not accurate. I've changed some of the dates around so see if it's better. A few of the other periods like Arctic Lake, Klastline and Kakiddi occurred in specific areas. Volcanoguy01:47, 13 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"The first age comes from basal basalt of the Kounugu Member overlying basement rocks and, if correct, implies that the Nido eruptions may have initiated during the Raspberry eruptive period." According to your dating the whole second cycle occurred during the Raspberry eruptive period.
Ethics is the philosophical study of moral phenomena. It examines competing theories about how people should act in general and in specific domains while considering the assumptions on which the theories rest. Thanks to
750h+ for encouraging this nomination and all the helpful suggestions during their GA review and to
Patrick Welsh for their peer review.
Phlsph7 (
talk)
08:52, 15 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I’m sure others are gonna mention that an image at the top-right would be nice for the page, like Aristotle, but at the same time I get not having one.
I agree, it would be nice to have an image but I'm not aware of a representative image of ethics in general. Using an image of a philosopher for a general topic article can be tricky because it may favor a specific tradition. Maybe we could use the scales of justice but this is not that typically used for ethics per se. The image in
Ethics#Basic_concepts was used earlier as the lead image but it was stated in the peer review that it was too complicated for the lead.
Phlsph7 (
talk)
08:19, 18 June 2024 (UTC)reply
”Ethics or moral philosophy is the philosophical study of moral phenomena.” - thats a bit self referential. Philosophical study could probably just be “study”, but I’m not a fan of just linking “moral” and letting the wiki link do the lifting. The second sentence of the lead is better, since that’s a better Explain-it-like-I’m-5 description for the topic.
I moved the part about "moral philosophy" to the next sentence to make it less self-referential. I kept the "philosophical" to distinguish ethics form the non-philosophical study of moral phenomena, like moral psychology.
Phlsph7 (
talk)
08:19, 18 June 2024 (UTC)reply
”It is usually divided into three major fields: normative ethics, applied ethics, and metaethics.” - the “usually” sticks out to me (as does “fields”). Perhaps something like “The primary branches of ethics include…” I think “branch” is better than “field”, since that’s used in normative and metaethics articles.
”Applied ethics examines concrete ethical problems in real-life situations, for example, by exploring the moral implications of the universal principles discovered in normative ethics within a specific domain.” - not sure if I’m reading it wrong, but is the “for example” needed?
This corresponds to the top-down methodology which is useful to establish the connection with normative ethics. With the "for example", we are on the safe side since some theorists also use a bottom-up methodology.
Phlsph7 (
talk)
08:19, 18 June 2024 (UTC)reply
”Moral psychology is a related empirical field and investigates psychological processes involved in morality, such as moral reasoning and the formation of moral character.” Three mentions of “moral” plus “morality.” Is there any way you could rewrite a bit to not use the five letters “moral” so many times? Like, could moral reasoning and moral character be piped to just “reasoning” and “character”?
The fourth paragraph seems like a repeat of the lead and what comes later, so it seems pretty redundant to mention normative/applied/metaethics again, particularly since you don’t go into the definition of “normative” or “meta.”
I shortened the passage and merged it into the first paragraph. I don't think we can fully remove it since the lead section is supposed to summarize sourced text in the body of the article and the other sections don't discuss this division.
Phlsph7 (
talk)
11:26, 18 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I was briefly looking for the etymology, and I think that should be higher up in the definition section.
I moved it up as the third paragraph, which fits well since the following paragraph also discusses terminological issues.
Phlsph7 (
talk)
11:26, 18 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Normative
”For example, given the particular impression that it is wrong to set a child on fire for fun, normative ethics aims to find more general principles that explain why this is the case, like the principle that one should not cause extreme suffering to the innocent, which may itself be explained in terms of a more general principle.” - eek, well, of course! As for why I brought this up, is the “for fun” part needed? Like, I’m not sure if it only applies as normative ethics if the argument is whether it is wrong to have fun doing that, or if it’s just wrong in general. Also, “given the particular impression that it is wrong” feels a bit off, but I’m not sure a better way to word it. Maybe it could be shorter and carry the same message? Like, “For example, the principle that one should not cause extreme suffering to the innocent explains why it is wrong to set a child on fire.” I feel like it has the same message, but it’s clearer and more succinct.
The example is taken from Kagan 1998 p. 1, which explicitly mentions that it is done "for the mere pleasure". The difficulty here is probably to find a concrete example where everyone agrees. Without the "for fun", there could be cases where it is acceptable, possibly if it is not done for pleasure but to prevent a highly contagious supervirus in child from spreading.
Phlsph7 (
talk)
08:17, 19 June 2024 (UTC)reply
”One difficulty for systems with several basic principles is that these principles may conflict with each other in some cases and lead to ethical dilemmas.” Such as the Trolley problem? I feel like it’s one of the best known ethical dilemmas, but maybe that’s just because I watched The Good Place. I see it appears later under “moral knowledge”, but it might be useful earlier in the article.
I usually try not to repeat examples in the same article. The prime example for this one would be David Ross and his prima facie duties. I'm not sure if it's necessary, but if we wanted, we could include an example along the lines of the second paragraph of
The_Right_and_the_Good#The_Right.
Phlsph7 (
talk)
08:17, 19 June 2024 (UTC)reply
”Different theories in normative ethics suggest different principles as the foundation of morality.” - try rewording to avoid saying “different” twice
”A more recently developed view additionally considers the distribution of value: It states that an equal distribution of goods is better than an unequal distribution even if the aggregate good is the same.” - recently as of when? 2020s? 20th century? After the fall of the Roman Empire?
The image caption: “Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill are the founding fathers of utilitarianism.” - is there a source calling them the founding fathers? It feels a bit opinionated right now. A more neutral caption would be “Portraits of Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill, who developed the field of utilitarianism.”
”Utilitarianism was initially formulated by Jeremy Bentham and further developed by John Stuart Mill.” - some date reference might be nice. Was this randomly out of nowhere, or part of a broader philosophical trend of the 1700s?
”Some critics of Bentham's utilitarianism argued that it is a "philosophy of swine" whose focus on the intensity of pleasure promotes an immoral lifestyle centered around indulgence in sensory pleasures.” - few issues here. First, you should attribute the quote, if it’s even necessary at all to refer it to swine (I’m guessing an oblique reference to pigs having long lasting orgasms?) It feels a bit out of place without the context. Also, could you avoid saying “pleasure” twice in the same sentence?
”Today, there are many variations of utilitarianism, including the difference between act and rule utilitarianism and between maximizing and satisficing utilitarianism.” - I’m not a fan of using “today”. Is that going to change to yesterday in 24 hours? I’ll have to Chex back and find out :P Alternately, perhaps something like “In the centuries since Bentham and Mill, variations of utilitarianism have developed, including…”
”For example, according to David Ross, it is wrong to break a promise even if no harm comes from it.” - maybe provide some context for who Ross is? You did that for Bentham and Mill, so that would be helpful. Also, maybe get rid of “for example” if you add something like “According to Scottish philosopher David Ross” (or however you think he needs to be introduced)
You don’t get into the difference of agent vs patient centered. Is that patient, like, having patience? Or a doctor’s patient?
I tried to clarify the relevant passages. They now read Agent-centered deontological theories focus on the person who acts and the duties they have ... Patient-centered theories, by contrast, focus on the people affect by actions the rights they have. Should we add a footnote to clarify the differences between patient as being affected vs having patience vs a doctor's patient?
Phlsph7 (
talk)
08:37, 19 June 2024 (UTC)reply
”Divine command theory sees God as the source of morality.” - as an atheist, I’d rather not have “God” used here so matter of factly. Could you reword it to make it more neutral? God isn’t even linked here, and it’s written as if it’s an accepted fact that God exists.
”This position can be understood in analogy to Einstein's theory of relativity, which states that the magnitude of physical properties like mass, length, and duration depends on the frame of reference of the observer.” - idk if this is needed. I thought the previous sentence made complete sense already, and then when I got here I was wondering why it was here.
”An influential debate among moral realists is between naturalism and non-naturalism.” - you don’t really get into the debate, so is “influential” appropriate?
”Another thought experiment examines the moral implications of abortion by imagining a situation in which a person gets connected without their consent to an ill violinist. It explores whether it would be morally permissible to sever the connection within the next nine months even if this would lead to the violinist's death.” - ok this needs way more context. You should probably mention that the thought experiment is that it’s a pregnant ill violinist apparently? I was quite confused for a bit why it suddenly turned musical.
I added an extra sentence to clarify that this is an analogy about the relation between mother and fetus without any fetuses present in the imagined situation. The musical turn is indeed confusing. This is part of the original formulation of the thought experiment but it's not essential that it is a violinist.
Phlsph7 (
talk)
11:52, 19 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Applied ethics
Why is military ethics bolded in the middle of the paragraph?
This is because of the redirect per
MOS:BOLDREDIRECT. I added a corresponding comment
Related fields
”For instance, the question of how nurses think about the ethical implications of abortion belongs to descriptive ethics.” - why nurses and not doctors who would actually be administering the procedure?
Because that's the example of descriptive ethics used in the source. With a corresponding source about doctors, we could also change it.
Phlsph7 (
talk)
12:25, 19 June 2024 (UTC)reply
History
Some of this is covered elsewhere in the article, which makes me wonder, perhaps this should be the second main section, after “Definition”? The article on philosophy, for example, starts with “Etymology” and has a history section before getting into the branches.
In principle, it could be done. Many overview works on ethics focus on the branches, concepts, and schools of ethics rather than the chronological development of the discipline. This indicates that the history is not the most important part of this article and should not come right at the beginning. Another difficulty would be that the history section uses various concepts that are explained in the other sections. If we wanted to have the history first, we might have to include a more detailed discussion of them already there, which could lead to various repetitions.
Phlsph7 (
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12:25, 19 June 2024 (UTC)reply
One last comment. It’s a long read, at 8,941 words. Considering that this is an overview of the subject, and the many many links to various topics, I feel that the article should be condensed wherever possible. Perhaps remove redundant examples. Or, like the stuff in the history section that’s repeated elsewhere, you could trim it by having the history section first, and then removing the duplicate mentions of certain people.
Given the scope of the topic, I think we are not doing too bad length-wise. For a comparison, we are still below the 9000 mark of
WP:SIZERULE. Except for the big names like Kant and Bentham, I don't think there is much overlap between the history and the rest. I'll keep a lookout for opportunities to condense the material as I respond to other reviews.
Phlsph7 (
talk)
12:25, 19 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I really appreciated your work on the article, and I enjoyed the read, so it’s my ethical duty to finally wrap up my review that I’ve been working on for… several hours. So here it is. Lemme know if you have any questions, @
Phlsph7:.
Hurricanehink mobile (
talk)
20:59, 17 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Amazing you've tackled this article! First impressions are good. Except for a small module on morality among primates at uni and failing to read the The Ethics of Ambiguity, I know nothing of the topic, so feel free to disregard anything you're not sure about / disagree with.
In the lead, the order is applied ethics before meta-ethics. Would it make sense to follow this in the article too? Metaethics is a more scary difficult subject, so we may want to start easier in the body too.
There has already been some discussion on the section order on the talk page and the peer review. Initially, meta-ethics was first to go from abstract to concrete. Then, because of the difficulty of its topic, it was moved to come after applied ethics. Then it was requested to have it before applied ethics since it "deals with much more general issues likely to be of interest to more readers". I don't feel strongly either way since there are good arguments for each approach. The order in the lead section was mainly chosen because it's easier to present the topics this way in a single paragraph.
Phlsph7 (
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08:38, 20 June 2024 (UTC)reply
As a general note: I'm moving in the direction of a support, but do want to do a second read to see if I can come up with more ideas on how to make the article understandable to a sufficiently broad audience. In particular, the bits around Kant are tough to explain, and not quite there yet in my view. I'll be on holiday, busy with work, and then hosting parents, so I might not come back till the 8th of July. I don't think I'll forget, but ping me if I do.
—Femke 🐦 (
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19:22, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I'm happy to hear that the article is moving in the right direction. I hope you enjoy your small wiki holiday. In the meantime, I'll see what I can do about the subsection "Kantianism" and I hope we can overcome this stumbling block.
Phlsph7 (
talk)
11:09, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Second read
Have been listening to
In Our Time over the holidays and their episodes on moral philosophy over the last years. They were all about individuals of the
wartime quartet (embarrasing red link, but Philippa Foot, Iris Murdoch etc), so hope I can say slightly more sensible things on the second read on the topic of language and virtue ethics.
The main branches of ethics include normative ethics, applied ethics, and metaethics. --> Do we need both "main" and "include" (rather than are). Are there further main branches?
This is the most common division but some theorists prefer a different approach. Using this more careful formulation avoids upsetting them.
Phlsph7 (
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08:19, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Instead, he argues that there are universal principles that apply to everyone independent of their individual desires. --> is individual needed in the sentences? their desires may be sufficient.
It asks whether moral statements can be true, how moral knowledge is possible, and how moral judgments motivate people. --> the examples --> I wonder if the first example makes sense for those who have not been schooled in
truth tables and with a basic background in logic. Maybe the example of whether there are objective moral statements is more accessible. I find the second example somewhat vague to. What does it refer to?
For the first example, I used objective moral facts instead. The second example refers to what is discussed in the subsection
Moral knowledge, that is, foundationalism, coherentism, and the like. We could use a more specific example, but that would negatively impact generality.
Phlsph7 (
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08:19, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Virtue theorists see the manifestation of virtues, like courage and compassion, as the fundamental principle of morality. --> A pedantic point, but the episode on
Philippa Foot made a distinction between a value theorist (who does the theory) and a value ethicist (who believe the above). Feel free to ignore, as alternative wording may make things uglier.
I'm not sure that this distinction is generally accepted but it is an interesting point. I changed our formulation to "Virtue ethics" to be on the safe side without introducing verbal gymnastics.
Phlsph7 (
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08:19, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Ethics is closely connected to value theory, which studies the nature and types of value. --> This feels tautological. Can we say anything concrete about this?
Descriptive ethics provides value-neutral descriptions of the dominant moral codes and beliefs in different societies and considers their historical dimension. --> do we need the word value-neutral here? I don't think pure value-neutral discriptions exists, as most words in language are not perfectly neutral.
—Femke 🐦 (
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08:40, 6 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I removed the term. Its main point was emphasize that descriptive ethicists try not to pick sides about which moral code is correct.
Phlsph7 (
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08:19, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Brilliant, thanks. That's a support from me. Hope that a new reviewer will also look at how to simplify and make the article more concrete.
—Femke 🐦 (
talk)
09:00, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
File:Head of Aristotle.jpg, File:EMB - Buddha stehend.jpg, and File:Head of Laozi marble Tang Dynasty (618-906 CE) Shaanxi Province China.jpg are all CC-BY-SA photos of a PD statue.
File:Jeremy Bentham by Henry William Pickersgill detail.jpg, File:John Stuart Mill by London Stereoscopic Company, c1870.jpg, File:Immanuel Kant - Gemaelde 1.jpg, File:Little boy.jpg, File:1914 George Edward Moore (cropped).jpg are all PD photos.
File:Philippa Foot 1939.jpg is not PD in the US. I've nominated it for deletion.
File:JuergenHabermas.jpg is CC-BY-SA
File:Trolley Problem.svg is CC-BY-SA
File:Cesarean section.jpg is CC-BY-SA
File:Battery hens -Bastos, Sao Paulo, Brazil-31March2007.jpg is CC-BY
Drive-by: Don't have time for a full review, but saw this while reading the page which stuck out and thought I'd add a comment An exception is J. L. Mackie's error theory, which combines cognitivism with moral nihilism by claiming that all moral statements are false because there are no moral facts - all error theory is an exception, not just that espoused by J. L. Mackie. Maybe Mackie should be mentioned in the history section instead. Relatedly Moral skeptics reject the idea that moral knowledge is possible by arguing that people are unable to distinguish between right and wrong behavior isn't that what they're arguing for, not the argument itself? I guess there isn't room to include questions about our access to moral facts or the (non)explanatory role of ethical concepts, but this could be worded better at least.
Shapeyness (
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19:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Hi
Shapeyness and thanks for taking a look at the article. I moved Mackie to the history section and I switched the explanation in the sentence on moral skeptics around.
Phlsph7 (
talk)
07:13, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Spot-check upon request. Is there a logic why some page numbers are linked and others aren't, and some references give sections and others page numbers? I don't think that Springer DOI links need archives, and I am not sure that Google Books archives are useful, either. Some books with ISBN links have retrieval dates and others don't. Looks like sources are from prominent university publishers and journals ... but I notice that they seem to be mostly Western sources; even if sources about non-Western ethics are used they seem to be Western sources. Can't speak much about whether the sources picked are representative.
Jo-Jo Eumerus (
talk)
08:52, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Hello
Jo-Jo Eumerus and thanks for doing the source review! I usually use section titles for web sources and page numbers for books and journals. For some books in ebook format, I also use section numbers if they do not have page numbers or if the page numbers depend on the reading device. If I'm aware of a Google Books page offering a preview of the page, I usually add a link to it. But this is not possible for all books, which is why some page numbers have links while others don't.
I removed the Springer DOI archives. Let me know if you think the Google Books archive links also need to be removed. The problem is that IABot adds them automatically, so all the links would be re-added the next time it runs. I count 91 archived Google Books links so removing them by hand each time after IABot runs would be time-intensive.
Some books with an ISBN have a website added in the template, for example, because the website provides a preview of the book. These books have access dates for the website. Access dates are also automatically added by IABot. I included several sources from non-Western publishers before the nomination, such as Sinha 2014, Satyanarayana 2009, Nadkarni 2011, Murthy 2009, Fernando 2010, Dalal 2010, Dalai Lama 2007, Armour 2001, Junru 2019, Ntuli 2002, and Pera & Tonder 2005. High-quality English philosophy sources from non-Western publishers are a little hard to find but I can try to find more in case the current ones are not sufficient.
Phlsph7 (
talk)
12:29, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
This article is primarily the work of PSA, who did a phenomenal job gathering information on this song. They approached me off-wiki last month asking to collaborate on helping to build the article, and we are both of the belief that it is ready for FAC. This song is from
SZA's smash-hit album SOS, and while it was never released as a single, it still became the first-ever top 40 hit for its featured artist, the one and only
Phoebe Bridgers. Cited by several critics and by SZA herself as an example of the album's experimentation with genres outside of R&B, the song revolves around themes of relationships faltering due to a lack of meaningful connection, with recurring themes surrounding artificial intelligence. I have greatly enjoyed collaborating with PSA on this one, and we both anticipate the community's feedback. (Disclosure: for my part, this is a WikiCup nomination.)
Dylan620 (he/him •
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14:42, 14 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Comments from Mike Christie
Oppose on prose. I was the GA reviewer, and I said when I passed it that "the prose is a little awkward in places but I think this meets the GA standards". FA prose standards are higher. Here are a few examples of wording that I think needs to be improved.
"Elsewhere, it appeared on national charts in Australia, Canada, and Portugal." "Elsewhere" is redundant; the list of places tells the reader it's elsewhere.
"many praised the two performers as a fitting match despite their discographies' different sounds, whereas a few found Bridgers an unnecessary addition". "Fitting match" is redundant; "discographies' different sounds" is an odd figurative use of "discography" -- it's their music that has a characteristic sound, not the list of their music; "unnecessary addition" is a bit vague.
I've replaced "fitting match" with "good fit", "discographies' different sounds" with "the differences between their respective musical styles", and rephrased the "unnecessary addition" bit.
Dylan620 (he/him •
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17:29, 14 June 2024 (UTC)reply
"From April to May 2022, SZA told media outlets that she had recently finished the album": strictly speaking this means she did nothing else but say this during that time, which is not what you want to say.
"SZA created a list of possible collaborators for the album. The roster included artists like": "roster" is not the ideal word; it means a list of people who have a given duty.
"Having been categorized as an R&B artist throughout her career, which she believed was because she was a Black woman,[12] SZA sought to prove her musical versatility and combine the R&B sound that had been a staple of her past works[13][14] with a diverse set of other genres and soundscapes." A bit wordy. And we start by saying she thought she was only categorized as an R&B artist because she was Black, and then say R&B was the main genre she had been working in. What does "soundscapes" add here that we don't get from "genre"?
"The turnaround time for completing "Ghost in the Machine" was fast." A time is short or long, not fast (in some usages, such as athletic events, you can say "a fast time", but that's not this usage). I really should have caught this in the GA review.
"Time's Andrew R. Chow wrote that she asks for help even if she feels drained from the romance, which he added was one of the album's recurring themes": a bit hard to parse. Does she feel drained from the romance or not? If she does, why "if"? I think you want "though". And what is the recurring theme? Feeling drained from romance? Or just romance?
I've replaced this part with "Time's Andrew R. Chow wrote that there are multiple instances on the album where SZA expresses desire to remain in a relationship despite feeling drained from it, and cited 'Ghost in the Machine' as an example".
Dylan620 (he/him •
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17:29, 14 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Hi
Mike Christie, thank you for the constructive criticism. I believe that I have addressed the specific points you have mentioned (replies inline), and will be giving the article a few combs-through to identify other possible issues with the prose. Cheers,
Dylan620 (he/him •
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17:29, 14 June 2024 (UTC)reply
"appeared on the national charts in Canada, Australia, and Portugal" → can't rely on refs in other sections
I have to admit that footnote looked odd to me. I've replaced it with direct citations to the sources that were already present in §Charts.
Dylan620 (he/him •
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18:05, 15 June 2024 (UTC)reply
As a counterpoint - I have always believed that if a given information is cited somewhere in the article, there is no need to cite it again elsewhere in the same article, which is coincidentally the logic behind citations in lead sections. Plus, listing a bunch of peaks in quick succession in one paragraph disrupts the flow and makes the whole thing off to me. This feels like a matter of preference anyway, and I have reinstated the status quo.
PSA 🏕️🪐 (please make some noise...)
05:11, 16 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I wasn't saying the article needs to provide the exact peaks, but I don't agree that a note from one section to a different section suffices as a citation. The guidance seems to be mostly about an opening sentence acting as a summary for a paragraph, or the lead acting as a summary for the paragraphs of the article.
Heartfox (
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18:54, 16 June 2024 (UTC)reply
overall I think there are slightly too many references to the album. context is great but I think some sentences could be cut. Like "She posted the album's track list on Twitter on December 5, 2022." is really unnecessary I think.
I've tried to trim some of the references to other songs (thinking it over, I'm not sure if "Kill Bill" needed to be namedropped, let alone twice, though I believe at least one of those instances was my error) and extraneous references to the album itself.
Dylan620 (he/him •
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18:05, 15 June 2024 (UTC)reply
"As a member of Boygenius, she also won Best Rock Song and Best Rock Performance for "Not Strong Enough" and Best Alternative Music Album for The Record" → this level of detail is also unnecessary I think
"In a Billboard cover story published", "In an interview with Nessa of Hot 97", "In an interview for CBS News Los Angeles", "SZA told Alternative Press" → all this seems unnecessary. I don't care where stuff was said, I care about what was said.
"In the middle of the demo was an open instrumental section where Bisel thought Bridgers would fit" → Bisel thought Bridgers would fit in an open instrumental section during the middle of the demo
I'll get to this sometime soon (likely within the next few days, I'm a bit burnt out right now). Thank you for the review(s) of Windswept Adan, by the way! Consider this my way of paying you back. :)
joeyquism (
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19:14, 15 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Dylan620: Hello again! I've noted some of my concerns below; feel free to refuse with justification:
...with imminent release being considered a possibility as early as 2019... - Is this clause particularly relevant? I feel that the same information is conveyed or to some extent implied by the preceding clause (After numerous delays). I'd suggest removing it, or rephrasing it to where it does not sit awkwardly in the middle of more pertinent information.
While some tracks had an "aggressive" sound, certain others were balladic, soft, or heartfelt. - Would it be worth it to note if "Ghost in the Machine" falls into any of these descriptions? I've noticed the gradual buildup to the mention of the subject, and while I do find it engaging, I feel as if this is sort of extraneous as it stands, as there have been no mentions of the track prior to this sentence. That being said, I recognize that it does provide more context as to how SOS sounds.
I've added another citation to support categorizing "Ghost in the Machine" as a ballad and removed "heartfelt" as not mentioned by the source (even though I'd personally describe the album that way).
Dylan620 (he/him •
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22:42, 17 June 2024 (UTC)reply
For A. D. Amorosi of Variety... - I feel like this is a different way of wording "In his opinion, [...]". I'd personally avoid this kind of phrasing by indicating that the following text is something that he wrote, and is not something that readers should take as fact, which is how it reads to me right now (I acknowledge that I cannot speak for others here). Something like "Writing for Variety, A. D. Amorosi wrote that the production..." would suffice.
and is not something the readers should take as fact – this is intentional, as I wanted to convey that it was Amorosi's opinion that the production sounded like those instruments (neither of which are mentioned in the credits). Nevertheless, I think your suggested phrasing works better, although I did replace Writing for... with In a review of SOS for... so as not to use "writing" and "wrote" only a few words apart in the same sentence (with respect to your mention of
WP:ELEVAR below, which I found enlightening).
Dylan620 (he/him •
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22:42, 17 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The turnaround time for completing "Ghost in the Machine" was short. - This is sort of just my personal preference, but I'm not a fan of short sentences. If they're not at the beginning of a paragraph (in which case, I would encourage them, as they punch a lot harder), they disrupt the flow of the reading experience. I'd suggest conjoining this with the following sentence through a semicolon, or breaking the paragraph it belongs to in two with this sentence being the first.
The Alternative Press article states that "SZA wanted to weave in the voice of a 'highly conversational' person, or as she explains, someone with a conversational approach to their music like Mac DeMarco, Connan Mockasin or Kevin Parker of Tame Impala." Do you think this warrants inclusion in the article? This seems like valuable information for describing the conversational style of the lyrics. Let me know your thoughts on this. Do note that I did not do a spot or source check; I initially checked this link out to see if there was more to the quote "I feel like there's so much debate about what's good, what's bad, what's this, what's that?"
I think this could be worth including, though I'm not quite sure where. Maybe in §Music_and_production, where Bisel suggests to SZA that she invite Bridgers to feature? The Alternative Press article certainly implies this to be a reason that SZA felt like Bridgers would be a good fit.
Dylan620 (he/him •
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22:42, 17 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I think your instinct is correct here. I'm thinking perhaps some integration with the sentence In the middle of the demo was an open instrumental section where Bisel thought Bridgers would fit, so he suggested to SZA that she include Bridgers as a feature; SZA agreed.; perhaps before or after would be alright too.
Replaced the period with a comma and added having sought to include a "highly conversational" guest musician such as Bridgers.Dylan620 (he/him •
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23:29, 17 June 2024 (UTC)reply
SZA, tired of online drama, sings about... - I think this reads strangely, but I'm not sure of how I would amend it. Leave it be for now, but I just wanted to note that I didn't think this phrase flowed very well.
I got rid of the online drama clause because it felt redundant to part of the paragraph directly above it, and replaced sings about wanting... with yearns for....
Dylan620 (he/him •
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22:42, 17 June 2024 (UTC)reply
...the song arrived at its peak of number 17... - Can be conveyed more simply as "the song peaked at number 17"; I'm citing
WP:ELEVAR here. Not trying to attack, but don't be afraid to use the same term twice within close proximity of each other at the expense of sounding a bit like you're droning; I struggle with this as well at times.
As I alluded above, I had not previously considered that "elegant variation" could be a problem, but I totally understand where you're coming from. I've edited the sentene to reuse the "debuted and peaked" wording.
Dylan620 (he/him •
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edits)
22:42, 17 June 2024 (UTC)reply
CJ Thorpe-Tracey for The Quietus... - "For" can be replaced with "of", or the clause can be phrased as something like "For The Quietus, CJ Thorpe-Tracey wrote that he felt..."
I have definitely not adhered to the "no style policing" expectation, but I do feel that some of the prose can be improved to further benefit the reading experience; additionally, most of the concerns that I had before were addressed by the other reviewers and corrected. Overall, I think it reads quite nicely; it just needs some touch-ups to really flow. I'll let you know if I have any further comments; as of now, I have no established position on where I stand for support or oppose. As always, feel free to let me know your thoughts with a reply. Hope you're having a great weekend, and I look forward to hearing back from you soon!
joeyquism (
talk)
21:23, 16 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Thank you for your edits,
Dylan620! I have left one more comment above regarding the placement of the SZA quote from the Alternative Press article; once that is addressed, I'll read over the article a few more times and likely support. Thanks, and have a great rest of your day!
joeyquism (
talk)
23:02, 17 June 2024 (UTC)reply
So you don't mention anything about the song's chords, which is just two chords - Gb major 7 to Ebminor (sometimes Eb major). Can you find any references to its chords or tempo, as in beats per minute? It feels like a steady tempo throughout the whole song.
Unfortunately, I can't seem to find any sheet music uploads by the song's publisher. I did find
this at musicnotes.com, but it's an arrangement by a third party, which I assume doesn't pass muster for inclusion (though of course I hope I'm wrong here).
Dylan620 (he/him •
talk •
edits)
19:28, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Dylan pretty much said what I was going to say. Musicnotes.com composition is not guaranteed to be the same composition as the original studio version's, so the information was decisively left out. - Elias
This was addressed at
GAN: "credits are assumed to be cited to the album's liner notes, which
WP:ALBUMSTYLE tells me usually does not need an explicit citation". I have removed the citation accordingly. - Elias
It took some digging, but I've found
an image on Discogs where the text is clear enough to be of use for verification.
All in all, the writing is pretty good in my opinion.
I also used a random number generator to spotcheck references.
37 - I don't know if this reference accurately. It doesn't mention " she believes has been overtaken by self-centeredness and lack of empathy. ", nor does it mention that Sadhguru was "the founder of the Isha Foundation". Otherwise the reference seems formatted fine.
I mulled over whether to cite the Isha Foundation tidbit to a Vox article linked in the source, or to remove it outright; I opted for the latter because at the end of the day I'm not sure how relevant it is to the topic at hand. (
PSA, feel free to correct me here.) I've also removed the sentence you quoted (partly per your concerns, and partly because I think it might have been a little redundant to the sentence before it) and moved the paragraph break to start the next one at "The song also discusses artificial intelligence".
Dylan620 (he/him •
talk •
edits)
19:28, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
This is a
WP:SKY/
WP:NOTCITE situation IMO. Namedropping Sadhguru without context because the description would otherwise have to be cited is like saying I should cite that SZA is an American singer-songwriter in the prose for GiTM. The articles about those people already cover those descriptors. - Elias
40 - "The lyrics were interpreted by publications as being about her then-boyfriend, Irish actor Paul Mescal" the references more hint it was a breakup. Was it?
46 - this reference doesn't cover the information at all, which is supposed to be about the album being released on 12/9/2022
This had been a supplementary reference for the "three years of delays" clause of that same sentence - I've pulled the ref (and a couple more) forward to that comma.
Dylan620 (he/him •
talk •
edits)
19:28, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
56 - the source says "Versatility largely wins out. Only SZA could find room for Travis Scott on a slow jam ballad, Open Arms, as well as Phoebe Bridgers (Ghost in the Machine)," - I guess "wins out" covers the information, but it seems to be a bit biased in my opinion in its current wording.
This was supplementary to ref 57, but I've restructured the sourcing in that paragraph, and separated this ref as citing how the song contributes to the album's diversity.
Dylan620 (he/him •
talk •
edits)
19:28, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Not really? I don't see how "cohesive" is a biased word to use. - Elias
I was mostly remarking how " many praised the collaboration as successful" was biased, since I didn't think source 56 would call that praise. The Guardian said "Clocking in at 23 tracks, SOS might well register as a distress signal, with SZA searching for a through line connecting her album’s multiple producers, its grab bag of genres and disparate featured guests," "it treads a fine line between swashbuckling versatility and a lack of cohesion.", and "Better sequencing might have smoothed the bumps." The Guardian review very much read as mixed, not quite as successful. To include it with " many praised the collaboration as successful despite the two artists' different musical styles" feels contrary to the source, and makes me worried that the article might be biased in its point of view. ♫
Hurricanehink (
talk)
21:22, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I've attempted to resolve this by pulling the ref forward to §Background and using it a source for the song's contribution to the album's diversity.
Dylan620 (he/him •
talk •
edits)
14:42, 4 July 2024 (UTC)reply
60 - yea that covers it
68 - that covers it
76 - that works
So maybe it's only a few references I checked, but I'm not satisfied about the current state of referencing, and or bias. Would you mind checking these instances, and where possible, improve the referencing, or change the wording? ♫
Hurricanehink (
talk)
19:08, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Thanks, I replied, mostly still the same few concerns, regarding the beats per minute, the credits (mostly want to verify just for FAC purposes), and about the one source being contradictory to what's written in the article. ♫
Hurricanehink (
talk)
21:22, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I'm happy to support now. I can see that there aren't a lot of good reliable links out there about the song's composition, which is a shame, but it's understandable. You've addressed my concerns satisfactorily. Best of luck finishing up this FAC! ♫
Hurricanehink (
talk)
20:50, 6 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I'm renominating this
two weeks after the previous nomination was archived. I'm feeling confident about its chances, as it managed to reach a rough consensus to promote at 3:1 with another review in progress before failing due to a deadline (I probably should have resolved that by doing some quid pro quos to get early reviews like most nominators do, so that's on me). Most of the problems raised by the lone oppose !vote should be addressed per my replies in the previous FAC before it was archived. I justified not acting on the remaining ones, which were largely style preferences or things that I and other reviewers disagreed with. Since the last nomination, I've made two changes: I spent a few minutes addressing the remaining concerns that were cut off when it was archived, and I reverted a few instances of copyediting that I had done during the nomination, as I felt they were detrimental to the article.
PanagiotisZois,
Aoba47,
Premeditated Chaos,
David Fuchs: Since all of you commented on the short length of the legacy section, I've tried taking a different approach and started looking for sources about more specific stories (despite
my philosophy to avoid handpicking sources whenever possible). Do any of you have thoughts about combining several "top Iron Man stories" lists to comment on which were the most well-received? The ones I found from major pop culture websites are:
IGN,
IGN(2),
Slashfilm,
Den of Geek, and
GamesRadar. If you're all okay with this method of sourcing, would you consider all of these sufficiently high quality to include? Also, Den of Geek is the only one to cover the worst Iron Man stories, so would there be weight concerns there if that alone were used to cover poorly received stories? I feel that there would be, but I've yet to find any other
I did not receive a notification for this ping. I believe that is because the comment was left unsigned. It would probably be best to try and ping them again. This seems like a good idea, and I do not have any issues with the proposed citations. They would be appropriate for a FA. That being said, I would also like to hear from the other editors about this, and I would trust their opinions on it. Apologies if I already asked this in the previous FAC, but have you looked through any newspaper sources? There may be some useful resources there on how the character was viewed prior to the internet.
Aoba47 (
talk)
23:06, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
For me at least, all the sources are appropriate for an FA article. You could synthesize them to indicate the most well-received Iron Man stories. As for the "worst" ones... I'm not sure that's soemthing that should be included, primarily because you'd be arguing a given story arc was viewed as bad based solely on just one source.
I do agree with Aoba47 that using something like newspapers.com might be useful for pre-2003 comics-related stuff, but I also understand it would be a pretty tall order to shift through decades worth of material, so simply using the 5 aforementioned, online sources is all right.
PanagiotisZois (
talk)
18:27, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I've added another paragraph of reception based on these sources. I don't know if it's what the article needed or not, but I'll leave that for the reviewers to decide.
Thebiguglyalien (
talk)
02:04, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
All right. I've checked the new material. I think it works. I do like how that section is to a certain degree based on chronological order, detailing aspects of the character in the 60s and 70s, then discussing some of his storylines from the late 70s to the 2000s, and then discussin how the MCU in 2008 and after affected response to the character. I do also appreciate that the section doesn't just say "X storyline was well-received", but discussed how Iron Man is depicted.
PanagiotisZois (
talk)
10:37, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Happy to see this article being nominated again. Continuing from where my previous review ended, I'll start with the "Characterization" section.
Fictional character biography
Paragraph 1:
Long Island, New York should be linked.
Wong-Chu should be linked.
Does the source state when Siancong was created to explain Iron Man's origin? Given the previous sentence, it probably wasn't in the 1990s, but at least by the 2000s.
Links added. Siancong is interesting; as far as I can tell, there was no one definitive moment that it was changed.
Paragraph 2:
It's stated that Tony helped found S.H.I.E.L.D. But if I'm not mistaken, given the "sliding scale of continuity" in Marvel, hasn't this been changed to have Tony's father be the one who helped found the organization?
"As he to regret". I guess you meant "As he [comes] to regret". It could also be "Coming to regret" or just "regretting".
I'd change "he relapses as part of a plot by Obadiah Stane" to "he relapses due to a plot orchestrated by Obadiah Stane", which makes the point clearer.
Also, although this is briefly mentioned in the "Publication history" section, the reference to Stane being Tony's business rival should also appear here.
"After he recovers". Although I get you mean Tony, since we've brought up three men in the previous section, it would be best if you specified who "he" is.
I've made the grammar changes. Friedenthal (2008) says that he "helped establish" S.H.I.E.L.D. Any thoughts on what other approach you might want to take with this?
I tried looking for a source that discusses this, but I've come up with nothing. :/ Not even one source that at least refers to Howard as SHIELD's founder. Taking that into account, there is nothing to do but leave that section as is.
Pagragraphs 3 & 4:
"After returning, Stark falls under Immortus's control, turning Stark evil". Repetition of Stark.
"until the Scarlet Witch alters his mind, causing him to embarrass himself and leave in disgrace". How does Tony embarrass himself? Is it something that happened in public, forcing Tony to resign, or something else?
"their real son could". Probably better to replace real with biological.
I'm not sure how to handle the Stark repetition, because a "he" there would be ambiguous, even if it can be inferred from context. Made the other changes.
Paragraph 5:
Best to have "morally corrupt" be hyphenated.
"protects himself from the counterspell and takes over San Francisco to augment the residents with Extremis". Does that mean that Tony is still under the effects of the spell? I get that the biography section lists the most important aspects of Tony's life based on what the handbooks and secondary academic sources state, but this is something that would require clarification.
The biography sections seems to end at around 2019. Again, understand that it's going based on the handbooks, but could something from the past 4 years be added? Like Tony marrying Emma Frost and becoming her trophy husband?
This article clarifies the spell about as much as the writers did. They basically just dropped it and moved on without resolution, and I didn't see any sources that covered their mistake specifically. I have the Emma Frost thing under his relationships, but I added a mention. Iron Man 2020 seems like the obvious inclusion, but there aren't really any good overview sources of its in-universe effects yet. Besides that, I can't find any major developments in his character in the last few years.
Comic writers sweeping things under the rug? Wish they'd do that with Wanda and Pietro being non-mutants and not-Magneto's children. If there aren't any good sources detailing Iron Man 2020, I understand leaving it as is. Glad to see the Emma Frost thing included, so that we at least have a relatively recent plot element from the past couple of months being mentioned.--
PanagiotisZois (
talk)
21:59, 19 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Personality and motivations
I would appreciate some explanation over how the 6 paragraphs are structured; as in, which is the topic they cover. Par 2 for example seems to focus on Tony's relationship with his technology and the Iron Man armor, with his fears relating to losing the armor and also himself; clearly, Tony views the armor as integral to his identity. Taking that into account, doesn't the "innovate and improve his technology" section fit better with the second paragraph, rather than the first?
Taking the above into account, wouldn't the last paragraph work better as the third one? That way, you discuss Tony's technology, his views on it, and his fears, and then go on talking about how he's actually better with machines than people; with the section outright stating at the end that Tony "identifies with the Iron Man armor as an extension of himself".
It seems to me that paragraphs #3 & 4 are connected in that they both deal with Tony's personality traits and specifically his "weaknesses"; whether it's his heart problems, misogyny, or alcoholism. I just wanted to put out that I do think the order could be reversed and they'd still work, but leaving them as is would be fine.
"problem solving" would work better hyphenated.
"The character is represents" probably goes without the "is".
I think the improving his technology aspect is good for the first sentence, as an introduction to who he is first and foremost. There are a lot of notes about the arrangement of this section under PMC's review in the
previous nomination, if you're curious about the thought process behind it. But I agree that the last paragraph should be higher up and I moved it accordingly, and I made the grammar fixes.
"opposing radicalism associated with 1960s counterculture". I may need a clarification. Do you mean that Tony opposed radicalism in general sense, which in the 1960s was associated with the counterculture movement? As in, he was a liberal and skeptical of the US government, but not to a radical degree; like the counterculturists.
"Iron Man opposed the Vietnam War.[127] This gave the" can work as one sentence. "opposed the Vietnman War, which gave the".
"examination of both perspectives". In terms of what? The role of invetor and technology? That Iron Man represents the inventor's personal use of technology, while Tony Stark's role as a businessman and owner of his company shows the "bureaucracy of governments and corporations"?
Yes, that's what the radicalism part means. Do you think it should be reworded? I also reworded the "both perspectives" part, which is hopefully an improvement.
Technology
Seeing as you are talking both about technology and technology's impact on society, it should be "are common themes".
"and the story's writers". Unless only one Iron Man story deals with this theme, it's plural. Also, wouldn't it be better to say that "various writers have portrayed"
In "Iron Man's use", I'd write it as "The character's use", so that you avoid repeating Iron Man twice in the same sentence.
"arise from progress and advancement" as in scientific progress and advancement or technological? Or is it speaking about progress and advancement in a broad sense?
"Misuse of technology and [the] implications of cybernetics are regular themes" could be combined without previous sentence, especially since it begins discussing what the previous one ends about.
Link "automation".
I assume the source means both in a broader sense. Made all grammar fixes.
Armor
"strength from powered armor of" would be either "a powered armor" or "powered armors".
"replaced with integrated circuits as real world technology advanced". Is a date provided?
"it also protects him internally as it keeps his heart beating". Based on previous data, isn't this somewhat outdated? Since his heart surgery, Iron Many doesn't need his armor to keep his heart beating.
No date, it doesn't seem to have been an all-at-once thing. Made the other fixes.
Hey. I was waiting for you to address my current comments before I continued the review. In the past, I've had users drop the peer review or equivalent without addressing my comments, which made me feel like I was wasting my time. I'll go through your changes and then finish with my review.
PanagiotisZois (
talk)
12:43, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Allies
Still believe it's better to have characters go by first name; Pepper rather than Potts or Happy over Hogan. Considering that many of these characters are rarely even referred to by their last name, it often just comes off weird.
Done.
"have become Iron Man besides Stark" to "have taken up the Iron Man mantle besides".
Done.
Romantic interests
"Hogan eventually married Potts". Don't suppose a date is provided? It is mentioned in the next sentence that Roxie Gilbert was introduced in the early 1970s. Is that when Pepper and Happy tied the knot?
Might be a stupid question, but where it says "The series then introduced", it's referring to Tales of Suspense, not the Iron Man comic, right?
This particular source does not give a date; I figured that the relevant part to Tony was that he and Pepper didn't get together in the early comics. And "in the 1970s" would refer to the Iron Man series.
"the second-wave feminism encouraged" remove the article.
Done.
Besides Pepper and Happy's marriage above, are dates provided in the sources for any of his other love interests? Only Emma Frost has a given time period mentioned.
Roxie Gilbert and Whitney Frost both have a time period. I added a year for Bethany Cabe.
Cultural impact and legacy
"Iron Man is credited with redefining the superhero film genre". The character or the movie?
I meant the character, but I guess it makes more sense to say the movie. Fixed.
Given the character's decade-long existence, the section does seem quite short, and I would prefer if it was somewhat longer. At the same time, given his long existence, there must be various sources out there reviewing the character, so you can't include all of them. I'm assuming the ones present were the ones you could extract from academic sources?
There are plenty of sources examining the cultural impact of superheroes, a fair amount analyzing the impact of Marvel and the MCU, and a few analyzing the impact of the 2008 film. If there are lots of sources out there analyzing how the comic book version of Iron Man changed pop culture, they have evaded me.
In other media
This is more about this section's mention in the lede. Given how influential the MCU's depiction of the character in perception of the comics version and boosting his popularity, it makes sense this would be brought up in the lede. I would recommend adding a brief mention that outside of the MCU, Iron Man has also appeared in animated films, cartoon series, and video games; if you want to specify, you could add "self-titled X Media".
All right @
Thebiguglyalien:. Thank you for addressing my comments and being patient with me and how anal I can be. You have done a wonderful work with this article, and I am happy to support its promotion to featured article status.
PanagiotisZois (
talk)
23:52, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
This article has gone through some serious improvements leading up to the last FAC and even moreso during the nomination, so I believe it is in excellent shape now. Also repeating my comments from the last one about hoping this sets a precedent: "There are a great many comic book characters, superheroes having dominated the field for most of the media's existence, that have this kind of potential; right now at GA we currently have
Captain America,
Joker (character),
Norman Osborn, and
Spider-Man which have the most potential for FA, and several others that are GA but may not be suitable for FA, and easily dozens of other characters that could be GA or better if someone could find the time and energy to find the sources and basically rewrite them from scratch.
Batman and
Superman are former FA articles, so it would be nice to see a comics character back up there."
BOZ (
talk)
05:41, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Since you've brought it up, I'll take this chance to shoutout
Morgan695, who's expressed interest in bringing Captain America to FAC. I did the GA review for their work on Captain America's article, which is what got me into writing comic book character articles and heavily influenced how I approached it.
Thebiguglyalien (
talk)
06:45, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Support from Hawkeye7
Delightful article. I will confess that I haven't read an issue of Iron Man published since the turn of the century. My only comment is that you mention Steve Ditko's brief run, but there is no mention of Gene Colan (aka Adam Austin). While the article says that the switch from Communist villains occurred in response to the failing war in Vietnam, I always thought it was the change from Heck to Colan.
Hawkeye7(discuss)00:37, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I wasn't too worried about cataloguing every artist that drew the character, but Colan is a good call. I've added a sentence for him, and for good measure one for George Tuska as well.
Thebiguglyalien (
talk)
23:10, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Unfortunately, I will not be able to do a full prose review for this FAC, but I still wanted to help out here. For clarity, I participated in
the previous FAC. My comments are below:
File:Iron Man (circa 2018).png has a clear caption and purpose in the article and a complete
WP:FUR. The
WP:ALT text is appropriate. I voiced some reservations about the infobox image choice in the previous FAC as I was concerned that the external pieces of armor could potentially confuse readers who are not as familiar with the character design, but it is not a major issue, especially when I do not have a clear alternative in mind.
File:Errol Flynn1.jpg also has a clear caption and purpose in the article. I would recommend adding WP:ALT text. It may be helpful to note in the caption what year the photo was taken to more readily provide that context for readers, but that is not required. Everything looks appropriate on the licensing and
Wikimedia Commons side of things.
File:7.24.19BrianMichaelBendisByLuigiNovi2.jpg looks good to me. It has a clear purpose in the article and the licensing and permission aspects look good. Again, I would recommend adding ALT text. Adding the year the photo was taken could be helpful, but again, it is not a requirement.
Both
File:Tales of Suspense 39.jpg and
File:Iron Man's armors.jpg have clear purposes in the article and appropriate WP:ALT text. I believe that both instances of non-free media are justified as they illustrated points that readers may not fully understand through the prose alone. The WP:FUR are complete for both, but I do have a small comment for the second image. The source link (
here) does not display the image and instead has a screen saying the original image is no longer available so that should be revised.
Everything with
File:Robert Downey Jr 2014 Comic Con (cropped).jpg checks out. It has a clear purpose in the article as illustrated with the caption. I am a bit confused on why the summary has non-English text (as in why is it there at all and why is it before the English text), but it is not a major issue.
I hope this image review is helpful. I only have quite nitpick-y suggestions. Two of the images need WP:ALT text while one of the non-free images needs to have the source link updated. Once both are done, I will be more than happy to pass this image review.
Aoba47 (
talk)
01:31, 6 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Aoba47: I checked the ComicsAlliance source for the last non-free image, and the image is actually there. With the exception of the cover image saying that it's not available, all of the other images from the various comics—including Iron Man #258.1—are still up.--
PanagiotisZois (
talk)
13:03, 6 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Thank you for the clarification. That makes sense to me, and I see what you mean now. My only remaining point would be the WP:ALT text then.
Aoba47 (
talk)
16:24, 6 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Support from Igordebraga
Support Well-written article, and my one objection from last time (that the fictional biography ended with Infamous Iron Man) has been fixed, so seems good for promotion.
igordebraga≠16:33, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Source review
Why do #201 and #202 use a section title rather than a page number? It seems like most sources are prominent publishers and authors. I wonder about
DK (publisher) though. One major omission is that I don't see any individual comics/issues being cited, or am I wrong?
Jo-Jo Eumerus (
talk)
09:20, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The #201 and #202 sources are reference works that use entries instead of page numbers, so those are the titles of those entries. You're correct that there are no individual issues cited, and I don't think I'd consider it ready for FAC if there were.
Thebiguglyalien (
talk)
07:01, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
When you are writing about works of fiction (or as here fictional characters), one generally expects the work itself to be cited at least a couple of times. Secondary sources don't work for every thing; especially when citing basic facts, you risk copying errors committed by the author of the secondary source.
Jo-Jo Eumerus (
talk)
11:21, 13 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Back again with yet another of those
Gillingham F.C. season articles! This season marked literally the high point of the club's history, as the team finished higher in the
English football league system than ever before (or since). Also of note: the season started with one of the team's star players unavailable because he was in prison, and the first game had no home fans present (I was there - it was quite surreal!). I hope the article is a decent read and I look forward to feedback :-) --
ChrisTheDude (
talk)
21:11, 13 June 2024 (UTC)reply
File:Mamady Sidibé 1.png - Published under CC-BY-SA-2.0, and has been reviewed by a Commons admin. LGTM.
File:Marlon King vs Antwerp (cropped).jpg - Published under CC-BY-SA-3.0; modifications are good.
File:NyronNos.png - Published under CC-BY-SA-2.0, and has been reviewed by a Commons admin.
File:Leeds elland road stadium.jpg - Published under German CC BY-SA 3.0, uploaded by original author Arne Müseler. LGTM.
File:London Stamford Bridge.jpg - Ditto above.
File:PaulShaw.jpg - Released under CC0.
File:Jason Brown goalkeeper coach Arsenal Ladies Vs Notts County (20054335525) (cropped).jpg - Published under CC-BY-SA-2.0, and has been reviewed by a Commons admin. Modifications are good.
File:AndyHess2009.jpg - This is your picture! At least, I would hope it actually is your picture. Published under CC BY-SA 3.0. Looks good.
@
Joeyquism: - yup, definitely my picture. I distinctly remember I was standing at the side of the pitch and he happened to walk across near me and I just yelled "Oi! Hess!" and as he turned I mimed taking a picture and he was happy to pose :-) --
ChrisTheDude (
talk)
06:59, 15 June 2024 (UTC)reply
As far as prose goes, I have made the following notes:
Lead looks great.
I am now finding that I know very little about association football to properly judge the technical writing. I'll defer to others on this. Apologies.
Woops, I forgot to mention alt text - the alt text is also good. Perhaps not as descriptive as I personally would go, but looks good enough (I would still suggest spiffing it up just a tad). Regardless, my stance of support remains as is. :)
joeyquism (
talk)
21:43, 15 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Support from Aoba47
Would it be beneficial to split up the lead's first paragraph into two paragraphs? It is a tad on the long side so I am curious on if a split would help readers to better navigate and engage with the material.
I am uncertain about the "sent" word choice in this part, (after being sent to prison). I more often see this information represented as "sentenced to prison", but it could be difference in different types of English. I just find "
sentenced" to be the more formal and accurate word choice rather than "sent", and "sentenced" is already used in the article anyway.
This is more of a clarification question, but I was wondering if it would be better to position
File:Mamady Sidibé 1.png to the left? It would avoid having the subject of the photo looking away from the article, and it would some variation as all the photos in the article are currently positioned to the right.
For the images (of both the players and the stadium), I think it would be helpful to include in the caption the year that the photos were taken. Readers may get the impression that they were taken during this particular season.
For the Hessenthaler quote near the end of the "Background and pre-season" section, I would use some sort of punctuation to mark the full quote from the rest of the sentence. Something like a comma or colon would work. I have a similar comment for the Hessenthaler quote used in the "January–May" subsection.
I am uncertain about the "picked up" word choice in this part, (picked up another injury), but it could be because of the difference between American and British English or something that is more often used with sports.
The last paragraph of the "Players" section mixes which numbers are spelled out in words versus which are left as numerals. The instances are ("Fifteen players") versus ("12 goals" and "11 goals"). It is not major, but it did catch my eye.
For the
Newspapers.com citations, I do not think the "paid subscription required" parts are necessary as they are presented as clippings, which readers can access without needing a paid subscription.
I hope that this review is helpful. My comments are fairly nitpick-y as I do not see anything major that needs to be addressed. Once everything has been addressed, I will look through the article a few more times, and at that point, I will likely support. Best of luck with this FAC.
Aoba47 (
talk)
22:56, 16 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Aoba47: - thank you so much for taking the time to review the article. All the above points have now been addressed, hopefully to your satisfaction..... --
ChrisTheDude (
talk)
07:56, 17 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Thank you for addressing everything. I support this FAC for promotion. I hope you have a great start to your week.
Aoba47 (
talk)
12:23, 17 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Support from Pseud 14
In the FA Cup the team reached the fourth round -- comma after FA Cup
Previewing the season, an uncredited writer for The Independent said of -- I think it is fine to drop uncredited
but after that game would again be out of the team -- could use referring to Wallace in this context: 'but after that game he would again be out of the team
After a 1–0 defeat to table-topping Portsmouth -- does table-topping here mean that Portsmouth is at the top of the league table? If so, perhaps a less-informal wording or description
Hessenthaler told the press "We've been a real force at home but we can't have joke defending like that. Seven goals in two games is just not good enough". -- comma or a colon before the quote
Four days later they played away to Wolverhampton -- comma after Four days later
Gillingham had originally been scheduled to begin 2003 with a home game against Norwich City on 1 January, but it was postponed due to a waterlogged pitch,[63] and so the team's first league game of the calendar year was ten days later away to Derby County. Any reason to repeat that this is the first game of the year?
remaining but then conceded a goal from a penalty kick and had to settle for a draw; Hessenthaler told the press: Turn semicolon to full stop, and colon to comma
In the fourth round, Gillingham were drawn at home to Leeds United of the Premier League in a match which was selected by Sky Television for a live broadcast Which to that
Note: I checked all the images and all seem to be accurately licensed. The only problem I have is with File:Mamady Sidibé 1.png, which doesn't have a proper author.
@
Wolverine XI: - many thanks for your review and support. I will endeavour to take a look at the weird sea unicorn article when I have a sufficient chunk of uninterrupted free time (which I fear may not be till Wednesday but I will do my best) --
ChrisTheDude (
talk)
09:23, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I assume that the note about Edusei's squad number is sourced to Brown 2004 (p.112) like the rest of the table, so I don't think it requires an extra instance of the citation; but if that's not the case then please add a source.
perhaps the "o.g." could be removed from the Cup matches table keys, as it isn't used there. No issues from me with it being retained for consistency though.
"English football league system" and "Premier League" are wikilinked twice in the lead. (I think this is allowed nowadays, but is probably unnecessary)
@
Jo-Jo Eumerus: -
KM Media Group is one of the biggest media groups in the UK, publishing a number of newspapers and operating seven radio stations. Their website says "Our journalists work according to The Editors’ Code of Practice, which sets the benchmark for ethical standards in journalism, enforced by IPSO". The company has a large editorial team and a board of directors. I personally can't see any issues with reliability. What info do you need on the books? --
ChrisTheDude (
talk)
09:24, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Jo-Jo Eumerus: Well, the Rothmans/Sky Sports Yearbook (it changed sponsor when cigarette advertising was banned in the UK) is widely regarded as the "bible" of English football. It's been published for over 50 years and is essentially regarded by fans as the definitive annual publication on the sport. Jack Rollin, the editor of the editions cited here, spent many years as a statistician for the BBC and was
very highly regarded. The other two publishers are both well-regarded publishers of specialist sport/football books with large catalogues. Dozens of Pitch books have been shortlisted at the British Sports Book Awards, Cricket Writers’ Club Book of the Year Award, William Hill Sports Book of the Year, etc. Soccerdata have also published books by the aforementioned Jack Rollin. Tony Brown, author of the Gillingham book, is or was a member of the
Association of Football Statisticians and has had many football books published. Does that help at all....? --
ChrisTheDude (
talk)
11:42, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
This article is about... a coin which was never very popular, but which when brought back in the mid-19th century caused minor controversy. For some reason, it was more popular in Scotland and in British Guiana than in England and Wales, though the reasons for that lineup seem a bit obscure. Enjoy.
Wehwalt (
talk)
16:19, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Comments Support from RoySmith
Not really an issue for FAC, but right now
Fourpence is a redirect to
Groat (coin). You probably want to make that into a
WP:DAB page instead. Actually, the bigger question is why do we need both articles? Aren't they talking about the same coin?
I think groat (coin) should probably be moved to groat (English coin) which is the usual naming convention for pre-1707. I've moved that now.
I've been thinking on this a bit and
your comment on the forked discussion clarified things for me. You mention in the lead (but not the body) about the
Acts of Union 1707 but I didn't fully understand the significance. I think it would be useful briefly explain what the Acts of Union is, for the benefit of readers who aren't well versed in British history. That will help them understand why these groats are not the same as those groats. I'm thinking something like "the Acts of Union 1707, in which Scotland and England joined to form Great Britian, leading to the issuance of a common currency". Maybe put this right before "The first groats following the union of England and Scotland in 1707 were struck the following year..." and make that the start of a new section, perhaps called "Post unification".
Yeah, that looks great, exactly what I had in mind. Happy to support at this point. This is a topic that I previously knew nothing about, and never would have suspected I would find interesting, but you wove this into a compelling narrative that kept me reading through to the end. Nice work. My support is just on the quality of the prose; I'm relying on other reviewers who know the subject matter to validate the correctness and comprehensiveness.
RoySmith(talk)01:36, 14 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Many thanks for that. Thanks for a thorough review. I've often found it's the people who come in without knowledge of the subject matter who can make the most compelling points.--
Wehwalt (
talk)
01:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Unless it's established usage for coinage articles, I don't think the use of {{sfrac}} is a good idea. I generates something which is illegible on my phone, and doesn't look so great on my desktop either. Why not the more common 1/3?
I've switched to {{frac}}, which is commonly used in coinage articles.
pre-Union groat see
WP:SEAOFBLUE. Same with "Radical MP" elsewhere.
The groat was struck throughout the 18th century, though by its end... Does that mean "the end of the 18th century" or "the end of when groats were produced?"
For the latin inscriptions which contain abbreviations, you use (short for "..."). I get the desire to indicate that you are expanding abbreviations instead of just literally translating, but I find the "short for" stuff breaks up the flow for the reader. I think it might work better without those.
Link "obverse" and "reverse" the first time they're used; many people will not be familiar with those terms.
OK
Groats were available by application at the Royal Mint... I don't know what most of this paragraph means. I'm assuming it make sense to somebody who is well versed in coinage, but I'm just lost. Who would be making these applications? What does "the cost of carriage" mean?
I've striven to make this clearer. As far as I can tell, anyone could go there and buy as many groats as they cared to purchase. The cost of carriage is the expense of getting the coins from London to Manchester at a time when the railways were just starting. It was more usual for the Bank of England to distribute coins to local banks and for them to reach the public that way.
Beginning in 1838, the coin bore the portrait, by Wyon, of Queen Victoria Wyon was introduced far enough before this (in the previous section) that it's worth mentioning again who he is.
I've changed to "also by Wyon". We don't give any detail on him so that at least sends the reader back to the William IV groat.--
Wehwalt (
talk)
19:39, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The threepence was one of the Maundy coins... why is this mentioned in an article about the fourpence?
The threepence replaced the groat in commerce, and in the discussion of how the Britannia groat came to be in 1836, the proposal was to take one of the Maundy coins and strike it for use in Britain. So the threepence fit the original criteria.--
Wehwalt (
talk)
19:13, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Not sure if I'll get around to doing a full review, so for now just consider this some random comments.
Taking another pass:
who noted that fourpence was the cab fare for short journeys I'm guessing that means in London, so clarify.
It's at least implied, so I've added it.
Hmmm. In another review I just finished, I made a big stink about only saying what a source said, not what it implied, so I'm concerned that you're doing the same thing here.
Lobel says at p.559, "It was initially popular for the payment of London hackney (taxi) fares, being the exact fare or half a mile ...". Added as second source.--
Wehwalt (
talk)
22:46, 13 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The new coin did not endear him to hackney drivers Is "hackney" a synonym for "cab"? I think it is, but not sure and some readers may not have any clue. Maybe just use the same word everywhere?
Done, more or less. I've kept one use of hackney as "hackney cab" and avoided it elsewhere.
English coins were generally struck by machine, including the groat -> "English coins, including the groat, were generally struck by machine"
Since, from 1689, groats bore a crowned numeral 4... I'm having a hard time parsing this sentence. I don't understand what "Since" is referring to.
The placement of the "Edward I groat" image is strange next to text talking about the Anne version.
there probably was not room for them I'd treat this as an opinion which needs to be attributed, i.e. something like "According to Lobel, these were left off due to a lack of room".
I don't think inline attribution is needed, it's hardly controversial that there was no room to list the titles George I imported from Germany. So I've just stated that it was likely.
infrequently-struck Should be two words, I think.
The third obverse, by Benedetto Pistrucci in 1817, moved the date to the obverse, if the date was moved, then the reverse changed too (to remove the date), no?
The most obvious changes were the date and the inscription. Pistrucci also changed the bust and did his own version of the crowned four. I'm trying to hit the highlights here.
File:1888 groat obverse.jpg and File:1888 groat reverse.jpg - Released into PD by Heritage, coin design PD. Not FA criteria, but it'd be nice if someone could make the background transparent here. I might do it later.
File:1792 groat obverse.jpeg and File:1792 groat reverse.jpeg - Released into PD by heritage, coin design PD.
File:1836 groat obverse.jpg and File:1836 groat reverse 1.jpeg - Released into PD by heritage, coin design PD.
File:Edward I groat obverse.jpeg and File:Edward I groat reverse.jpeg - Released into PD by heritage, coin design PD.
File:1839 groat obverse.jpeg and File:1839 groat reverse.jpg - Released into PD by heritage, coin design PD.
File:Groat group.jpg - CC-BY 4.0
All images are relevant to the article. All have alt-text except the infobox image, which needs it. Once this is done, all will be ready.
(Also, side note: there's an error in the mintage figures. You've listed 1851 twice, and the years don't line up with the description you give in "Reaction, later issues and colonial striking" - Where's the 1857-1862 issues? Also, I'd be very interested if you could find any info on the 1850 - that's a pretty high mintage for no survivors, so there must have been some melting going on.)
Generalissima (
talk) (it/she)
17:50, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The 1850 mintage was probably with dies dated 1849. I'm not coming up with anything on the 1857 or 1862, this were proof-only mintages. There was no general proof set of those years so I can't go around by trying to find the mintages of such sets. I've fixed that typo you mention.--
Wehwalt (
talk)
18:22, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Okay! It might be good to just mention the proof-only years in the mintage figure list, even if specific dates are not available. Anyhoo, Support on image review.
Generalissima (
talk) (it/she)
19:56, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Drive-by comment
"It is a continuation of the groat series struck before the Acts of Union 1707, issued intermittently beginning in the late 13th century." I don't think that the reverse chronological order works here.
Gog the Mild (
talk)
20:29, 17 June 2024 (UTC)reply
This is done despite the fact that the groat was never used "despite the fact that" ==> "even though" (conciseness)
Prior to that, only the silver penny "Prior to" ==> "Before"
post-unification
the groat made no reference to George's "made no reference" ==> "did not refer"
identical inscriptions but for the roman numeral II added "Roman" should be capitalised
have been by Richard Yeo, and saw slight modifications to the reverse comma isn't needed
britannia issues
silver coins, even twopence as a sixpence could receive a groat in change ==> "silver coins, and even twopence as a sixpence could receive a groat in change"
I'm not sure this would read correctly. What about a comma after twopence?
I'd also recommend linking the newspapers
I only saw one that needed it.
reaction, later issues and colonial striking
one of the Maundy coins, and was struck for colonial use remove the comma
and circulated there for many years after it ceased to elsewhere in Great Britain remove "to".
There's a single sentence paragraph. Anywhere we can put this?
Blest if I can find anything much to carp at after two read-throughs. I don't think a blue link from the lead to hackney drivers would hurt. And perhaps the connexion between "joey" and Joseph Hume could be made more explicit: here is the OED on the point: These pieces are said to have owed their existence to the pressing instance of Mr. [Joseph] Hume, from whence they for some time bore the nick-name of Joeys. (E. Hawkins, Silver Coins of England 421). Nothing there to stop me adding my support. The article seems to me to meet all the FA criteria and is well up to the standard of Wehwalt's continuing series on British coinage. Tim riley talk13:18, 20 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Not that I've found. The point is theoretical, the Decimal Currency Board didn't waste time calling in coins that were unlikely ever to be seen in commerce. They didn't call in the double florin either. If you feel strongly the source should go I'll just delete the text.
Wehwalt (
talk)
17:13, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Thanks. I've made those two changes. My rule of thumb is that if the list takes up more than a screen on my laptop, it's better to collapse, and it takes up more than two. A bit subjective in a way I know but I don't want too long a gap.--
Wehwalt (
talk)
13:32, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Lobel and Spink are coin catalogues that appear reliable for coin related content, but I can't access them.
Other books listed in "bibliography" section are well-footnoted scholarly secondary RS.
Sources not in the bibliography section are mostly 19th century newspapers, an original royal proclamation related to the coin and a museum website, which are fine given what they are used for. None of these have named authors that could be credited, so the way they are cited here is acceptable. Two minor concerns below.
What makes Robert Leach a reliable source?
Royal Mint Annual Report 1888: would be nicer with page numbers
Both reference section and bibliography section are almost consistently formatted.
Exception: Dyer & Gaspar has the chapter name in title case, while the titles of the newspaper articles are in sentence case. Is there a good reason for this?
I've deleted Leach, standardised the capitalisation, added the link to the Standard Catalogue and added page numbers for the 1888 report. That's everything I think. Thanks--
Wehwalt (
talk)
17:33, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The lead doesn't mention that this is a silver coin.
Added.
"from the late 13th century until the Acts of Union 1707." Would that read better as 'from the late 13th century until the Acts of Union in 1707'?
"It is a continuation of the English groat series struck intermittently from the late 13th century until the Acts of Union 1707. The groat was struck throughout the 18th century ..." The first sentence suggests that it ceased to be struck in1707m, the second otherwise.
The English groat ceased to be struck in 1707, the series known as the British groat began. It made no great difference in the case of the groat, since the design continued, but 1707 is considered by the sources the dividing mark between English and British coinage, because the 1707 acts required a single currency in Great Britain, and that was what was formerly known as the English series. There were some design changes to the heraldry on the coinage and changes in inscription but because of its small size, those did not affect the groat.--
Wehwalt (
talk)
22:09, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Ah ha. In which case "The groat was struck throughout the 18th century ..." → 'The British groat was struck throughout the 18th century ...' may help prevent puzzlement in future readers.
"This is done even though the groat was never used as part of the Royal Maundy charity distributions ..." Perhaps 'This is done even though the groat was not used as part of the Royal Maundy charity distributions'?
Done, although I like the emphasis the original had.
"Croker and/or Bull designed".
MOS:ANDOR, "Avoid writing and/or unless other constructions would be lengthy or awkward." Perhaps 'Either Croker or Bull, or the two together, designed'?
"Rudolph Ochs Snr". I'm unsure about the US usage in a VarUK article.
It's not a US usage, but what I imagined to be the British. The source says ... Ochs, senior."
Then perhaps follow the source, spell it out and lose the upper-case S?
"The reverse depicted the crowned 4". Why "the" rather than 'a'?
Because earlier issues also had a crowned 4, this is just a variation on the theme.
"the fact that the groat was infrequently struck meant that the earlier design was kept for the groat". Is it possible to rephrase this to avoid "the groat" twice in the clause?
"and was even issued in 1760, the year of George's death, even though". Similarly with "even".
I think the "even" calls attention to the fact that the early issue outlived the later, being struck to the latest possible date.
"the obverse of his groat bears three different designs." Should groat be plural?
No. It's referring to the issue as a whole.
"which has led it to be termed "wire money"." Consider deleting "has".
The terminology still persists as a coin collecting term, the "has" makes it clear that it was not just a 1792 term.
"BRITANNIAUM REX FID DEF ( ... King of the Britains, defender of the faith)." Why the elipsis?
It's a continuation of the royal titles that started on the obverse.
"other on a shield bearing a Union cross". What is a "Union cross"? Do you mean Union Jack or Union Flag?
King William's proclamation said "Union cross". I would imagine that it is the same crosses that appear on the Union Jack, and the examples of the coin we picture bear that out but I hesitate to indulge in original research.
If the source is William's speech or repeats of it, that's a primary source. What do the HQ RSs describe it as?
The most elegant I can find is "the crosses of the Union Jack" and I've altered to that.
"In Manchester, though, the banks sold eight shillings worth of groats for ten shillings, to cover the cost of conveyance from the Royal Mint in London." That's interesting. Was that sort of thing common? And are any other similar regional discrepancies known for this issue?
Not for this issue. I've read that some of the early 19th century coppers could only be purchased at the Royal Mint in London and they did not pay for transport. Had the coins been distributed through the Bank of England's correspondent banks, this would not have been an issue, but then people would not have been able to buy them from the Royal Mint.
"Britains", rather than Britons, is very old fashioned.
It doesn't refer to people but of countries, or islands originally, Great Britain and Ireland. When they added "OMN" in 1902, "All the Britains", this made it clear that it referred to places, not people.
"King of the Britains, defender of the faith". Why the upper-case K?
It's how I read
WP:JOBTITLES, the Louis XVI example.
"and circulated there for many years after it ceased elsewhere in Great Britain." Should that be 'and circulated there for many years after it ceased to elsewhere in Great Britain'?
After the death of his frenemy
Isabella Blow, Alexander McQueen took a month-long trip to India to process his grief. The result was The Girl Who Lived in the Tree, a wildly imaginative and critically beloved collection that smashes together imagery of the British monarchy with the culture of India during the British Raj through the story of a fairy tale about a feral girl who becomes a princess. It's a joyous collection that's rightfully remembered as one of his best. ♠
PMC♠
(talk)11:16, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Image and source review by Generalissima
Oh hey, I remember this one!
Doing images first:
File:Dress by Alexander McQueen at Savage Beauty exhibition V&A.jpg - CC-BY-SA 2.0
File:Queen Elizabeth II official portrait for 1959 tour (retouched) (cropped) (3-to-4 aspect ratio).jpg - Public domain / CC-BY 2.0
File:Woman sitting wearing red anarkali dress.jpg - CC0 1.0
File:Indian jutti, 1940-1998 - Bata Shoe Museum - DSC00438.JPG - CC0 1.0
File:The Girl Who Lived In The Tree - Look 23.png - CC-BY 2.0
File:The Girl Who Lived In The Tree - Look 29.png - CC-BY 2.0
File:The Girl Who Lived In The Tree - Look 31.png - CC-BY 2.0
File:The Girl Who Lived In The Tree - Look 34.png - CC-BY 2.0
File:The Girl Who Lived In The Tree - Look 10.png - CC-BY 2.0
File:Werner en Abraham Jamnitzer (1579-1586) Drinkbeker in de vorm van Daphne Grünes Gewölbe Dresden 21-10-2018.jpg - CC-BY-SA 4.0
File:The Girl Who Lived In The Tree - Look 42.png - CC-BY 2.0
All images are relevant, well-arranged, and have alt-text.
Support on image review.
Source:
I did a pretty thorough spot-check during the GAN review here, and it passed without any serious errors. I can do another spotcheck if you would like it, however, I don't see any major changes on that front since when I reviewed. The sources are basically the same as all the other McQueen FAs; that is to say, using basically the entire available corpus of RSes on McQueen's designs, alongside contemporary critics' responses in the fashion press. Since this is a pretty pivotal moment in his career, it seems this collection is well-covered among the overview sources. The sources are consistently cited; all books are placed in the Bibliography, news articles in the standard Citation section. Books all have ISBNs and OCLCs. If you wanted to be extra (fitting considering the subject matter), you could always add ISSNs to the newspaper and magazine sources, but this isn't really a requirement.
Below is a very quick prose check; I have very little to add, as much of it is already excellent! Feel free to refuse suggestions with justification.
Their relationship was turbulent, and they were estranged when Blow committed suicide in May 2007. - I initially interpreted this as meaning the estrangement was a result of Blow's death. Though I may be a little silly for reading it as such, perhaps "had been" instead of "were" would be a bit clearer?
Sure, tweaked
Grey-based tartan referenced McQueen's Scottish heritage. - Wikilink to the wonderfully logorrheic page for
tartan?
Oh, yeah
Treacy used driftwood to build the bird's body and sea fan coral for its tail. Treacy recalled McQueen being "speechless" when he saw it. - Can likely just be made one sentence with a semicolon, or substitute either of the "Treacy"s for the corresponding third-person pronoun.
Yes, that is better
McQueen personally invited Hillson to the show as a gesture of gratitude for her mentorship. – I would say this sentence is far enough from the previous mention of Hillson to warrant the inclusion of their full name again.
Sure, although sometimes I've done this and people have disagreed, so we'll see if other reviewers bring it up
The bag was decorated with gilt... - Is "gilt"
gold leaf?
Not necessarily
Writer Cassandra Atherton described using several McQueen collections, including The Girl Who Lived in the Tree, in a university-level creative writing course to teach a connection between poetry and fashion, particularly how one can inspire the other. - Is there any indication in the JSTOR article as to which university this course is/was taught at?
Yes, but it seems like an unnecessary level of detail to add to the article
Otherwise, this is a very well-written article about a lovely topic - Well done! I think there is much to be written about regarding fashion history, and I'm especially appreciative of your work on fashion-related articles on here.
joeyquism (
talk page)
22:22, 13 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Background: would it help for context to know when McQueen was born and when he died? I would also suggest to add a sentence or two about his success between 1992 and 2008.
I'm not sure birth/death is necessary, I don't usually see it in comparable articles such as albums. I think "known in the fashion industry for..." covers his success
The graduation in 1992 is probably enough to guess at his age, but I think something about founding his
fashion house, winning prizes, having two collections per year (many of them notable) would help to give some background on who McQueen is. (Imagine a reader arriving here from the Main Page who has never heard of him and only reads this article).
I don't see that it's valuable to recap his biography, nor the minutiae of the fashion industry (two major seasons a year is an industry standard, not a McQueen thing). I would prefer to avoid overloading the reader with detail when the article should be focused on what's relevant to this particular collection, such as his relationship with Isabella and his love of heritage.
I take your point on the two collections. But I still think there is so much focus on some details (indeed, those that are relevant for this collection) that the reader isn't presented with the big picture: that McQueen had achieved
mainstream publicity by this point of his career, and was no longer just "known in the fashion industry". —
Kusma (
talk)
19:42, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Kusma, I've added a sentence about a 20-year career and the various themes/ideas he got into. I also pulled "known in the fashion industry". How's that?
Now we have a short overview of his entire career; that should do to give enough context.
Concept and collection: "It was presented as a fairy tale about a feral girl who lived in a tree before falling in love with a prince and descending to earth to become a princess." who presented the fashion collection as a fairy tale and how did they do that? Or do you mean that the show was presented according to this narrative?
I've tweaked the phrasing, does that help?
Yes.
Sorry for being obtuse and to continue harping on this point: I can imagine separating a show into "phases", but I have difficulty imagining "phases" of a fashion collection
This refers to the show, I've split the sentence so hopefully that's clearer
Indeed.
"He also drew heavily on the clothing he saw in India" should it be "had seen"?
Runway show: do we know how long it took/how many people saw it? Or is that something nobody cares about in fashion?
No RS discuss the runtime. I could pull it from a video but the problem is that in my experience the available videos of McQueen's shows sometimes exclude bits so it wouldn't necessarily be accurate. No audience numbers reported for this one either.
My point is the content of the article
atelier. If you want to explain the word, it may be better to link to
atelier instead.
I see your point, but although the article doesn't directly mention jewellers, it's still about the concept of a private artistic workshop, so I'd prefer to retain the link
As "atelier" is the standard word for an artist's workshop in German, I find it hard to judge how rare it is in English, so I will stop complaining about this. —
Kusma (
talk)
19:42, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Notable ensembles: Images of the various Looks are spread all over the article. Have you considered experimenting with a gallery that could keep them all close to where they are being discussed?
I would prefer not to, as a gallery renders them all quite small and reduces the visual impact, plus there is room in the text
My main question here is how to keep the images close to where they are being discussed. I agree that you should not use the old-fashioned default of the "gallery" tag, but with "mode=packed" or similar (and at a decent size) the visual impact could be just as good as it is now.
I understand your concern, but I disagree that it's better than the current format, which presently has the important images alongside where they're being discussed in detail.
OK. Most of them are reasonably close (other than Look 10, which is mentioned twice, it is usually in the same or adjacent section when looking at images on mobile, where this is most relevant). BTW is Look 33 the only one not discussed in the text? (Nothing wrong with that per se). —
Kusma (
talk)
19:42, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Analysis: Is the link
Gothic fiction the best way to describe "Gothic elements"?
Yes, "Gothic" in this context refers to elements - tropes, ideas, cliches, etc - that originated in Gothic fiction
Writer Cassandra Atherton: isn't this more "legacy" than "analysis"? If it is "analysis", can we hear more about how Atherton sees the mutual influence of fashion and poetry in this specific show?
I don't think so, since her point is using the collection to teach the connection, which strikes me as analysis, even if it isn't very deep. (Speaking of which, she doesn't really get into the weeds of this individual collection, just sort of describes how her students took inspiration from it)
Legacy: the first half of the intro paragraph is just publication of photographs of dresses from the collection. That strikes me as not ideal for introducing the legacy, and perhaps should be in its own (sub-)section. The discussion of the legacy proper in my view only starts at "Playwright James Phillips produced the 2015 semi-biographical play McQueen".
I'm not sure a separate section is necessary for what a fairly short paragraph. The other McQueen collection FAs I've done place photoshoot information in the same location, as mostly they come first before any other Legacy stuff
"several items from the retail collection" this is the first time we hear about the retail collection; anything worth saying about it in general?
No, there is almost never any coverage about the retail versions, they're almost never as fun nor as flashy as the runway items
I was more wondering if there was any boring information of the type "it was for sale from March 2008".
Nope, not even that.
"Ownership and exhibitions" could perhaps be "exhibitions and ownership" as this is the order in which they are discussed.
I swapped the paragraph order instead as I think it reads better
Some further replies above. No need to do anything where I have not replied. Where I have replied, don't do anything if it makes the article worse. —
Kusma (
talk)
08:56, 18 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Lol, I do this every time, and every time I tell myself I'll remember for next time and I never do :P
For this sentence, (The looks from the first half represented the girl's feral state, taking inspiration from
punk fashion to create a look McQueen called "punk princess".), I would avoid repeating looks/look in the same sentence if possible. The very next sentence also starts with "looks" so it feels a tad repetitive.
Reworded, nice catch
For the "Reception" section, there is an instance of four citations being used. I would consider
citation bundling to avoid any
citation overkill concerns.
Done
I think it would be beneficial to specify in this part, (including the long-running Les Misérables), that the musical is being referenced. It would likely be understood from context, but I think it is always best to clarify to avoid any potential confusion.
Yes, good point
Sarah Burton should be linked in the article. It may be helpful to note about McQueen's death in 2010 and how that shaped Burton's involvement in the fashion house as I could see readers questioning why she was creating a collection for McQueen. I am specifically referencing the second paragraph in the "Legacy" section just to be clear.
I considered this, but I'm generally hesitant to give explanations that are longer than the thing that is being explained, you know? I revised it a bit to say "Sarah Burton for the Alexander McQueen brand" and maybe that'll do
That is fair. All the readers really need to know is that Burton was designed a collection for the McQueen brand at the time and a source that there were similarities to this collection. The revision clarifies that for me, and I can understand and agree that a note would be excessive.
Aoba47 (
talk)
15:29, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
For Citation 30, I think it would be useful to specify in the citation formatting that it is from
Gale. I have a similar comment for any similar citations used in the article (such as Citations 55, 59, and 76) to avoid potentially confusing readers who may be expecting to be directed somewhere else when clicking on the link (like to the Toronto Star for Citation 30). There are citations that already do this, specifically Citations 56 through 58.
Done
Citation 76 should specify that a subscription is necessary in the citation formatting. When I click the link, I get directed to a log in screen. I would do the same for any similar citations.
I generally avoid doing this; I feel it adds a lot of work for minimal reader value
This is not required by any means for a FA/FAC, but I always think it is best to archive web citations whenever possible.
I tried to do this but IABot is apparently "experiencing a high load. This may cause delays in processing your request. The current estimated lag is 2099 minute(s) and 22 second(s)" (34 hours, lol!). I'll have to do it another day.
I am sorry to hear that. That does suck. Again, it is not required for a FAC, or even a FAC, so it is nothing to worry about. It is always a pain, at least in my opinion, to do these kinds of changes after already writing ad revising the article.
Aoba47 (
talk)
15:29, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I hope this review is helpful. Once all of my comments are addressed, I will look through the article a few more times just to make sure, but I do not imagine that I will find anything further. Great work as always, and best of luck with the FAC!
Aoba47 (
talk)
13:49, 19 June 2024 (UTC)reply
No need to apologize. There was absolutely no rush. I agree with your replies to my comments. I support this FAC for promotion based on the prose. Great work as always!
Aoba47 (
talk)
15:29, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
SC
Lead
"descending to earth" makes it sound like she was living in the heavens, rather than just a tree. Striking the last two words would be much cleaner (ditto for the phrase in the Concept section)
Done both
Concept
"girl's transformation into a real princess": don't think we need "real" – she turns into a princess, not a real (ie. actual) princess
Removed
"Queen Elizabeth II": just "Elizabeth II" would suffice
Sorry, do you mean all throughout or just where I repeat the name?
@
FAC coordinators:
Hello coords, is there anything further you're looking for from this nom? I'm sitting at four prose supports and a complete source/image review and no comments in just over a week. ♠
PMC♠
(talk)06:22, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
drive-by comments
"with an enormous artificial tree". It may just be me, but "enormous" sounds hyperbolically unencyclopedic. How would you feel about 'large'?
Sure
"Forty-two looks were presented". "look" seems a bit of a specialist term. Is there a link?
It feels like common English to me. It's also been present in nearly every other one of these FACs, many of which you have reviewed, so I'm not sure why it's a concern in this one.
Wikipedia is not a reliable source and there is no rule of
precedent. What reviewers for example agree on, or fail to comment on, in a FAC has no bearing on any subsequent FAC. In the case of "look", it may well seem common English to you, but I am querying whether it will be understandable to non-fashionistas. In support of it not being, I note that Wiktionary has three definitions for
look as a noun; I assume the usage intended is the second "(often plural) Physical appearance, visual impression." with the usage examples "She got her mother’s looks" and "I don’t like the look of the new design." I also checked a pair of paper dictionaries and the closest definition was "appearance". In short, even a reader who had memorised the obscurer corners of several dictionaries is unlikely to readily understand the word in the context you use it. IMO, YMMD. (It may be that it is so cutting edge that it has not reached even online dictionaries yet.) To leave it without even a link would seem to be doing readers a disservice, especially as it does not seem to me - and I could be wrong - that it would be difficult to recast in a more readily comprehensible way.
Certainly there may not be such a thing as legal precedent at FAC, but I don't think it's unreasonable to ask why something that was not an issue for a specific reviewer in something like a dozen previous FACs has suddenly become one. Furthermore, I don't think it's quite fair to say that Wikipedia is not a reliable source, and then quote Wiktionary definitions at me. The reliability level is the same, isn't it? The word "look" in this context is roughly synonymous with "outfit" or "ensemble". I would argue that it is a commonly used English term, not just in fashion circles. It is a term that I would expect to be understood or easily inferred from context by most readers, regardless of their experience with fashion. As it happens, "look" is in the dictionary with this context.
Merriam-Webster defines it as "a combination of design features giving a unified appearance", while
Oxford English Dictionary defines it as "the appearance of someone or something, especially as expressing a particular quality", with bullet point two noting the context of "a style or fashion". Neither identifies this usage as slang, jargon, idiomatic, neologistic, or otherwise inappropriate for use in Wikipedia. ♠
PMC♠
(talk)06:44, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"The most significant items presented included". In what way did they signify something or carry meaning; or have a noticeable or major effect? (Definitions from Wiktionary.)
I have no idea why no previous reviewer has previously picked this up if you have used it in the same sense, But that is not really to the point. I think you probably mean important or major or substantial. To paraphrase Fowler's Modern English Usage, "significant" should not be wasted as a mere synonym of "important". My query was based on the two definitions offered in Wiktionary. You seem to be using the word in a way not included in that dictionary.
Gog the Mild (
talk)
19:15, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
OED defines "significant" as "sufficiently great or important to be worthy of attention". Given that these two looks attracted the greatest degree of attention from critics and analysts, I think the word applies. In the interest of not arguing for the sake of arguing, however, I have revised it from this article. ♠
PMC♠
(talk)06:44, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Normally I would not push back against coord comments like this, but with apologies, I confess I do not understand the reasoning behind them. ♠
PMC♠
(talk)03:46, 6 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Coord comments, reviewer comments: either way you should feel entirely free to push back against anything you disagree with or are unhappy with. Comments on your two push backs above.
Gog the Mild (
talk)
20:43, 6 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Dear colleagues, please find attached my favourite game of 2022: Teardown. In this game, the player is given the tools to destroy and shape the game world around them, which is made entirely of destructible voxels. The core gameplay loop has the player plan and create efficient paths between objectives (say, cars to steal) that must then be completed within only 60 seconds. I began writing the article just as the game was about to enter early access in October 2020. It has been a Good Article since November 2022 (thanks, @
Shooterwalker) and was a DYK item on the Main Page in December 2022 (cheers, @
Theleekycauldron). Following the release of the console versions last year, plus the completion of the GOCE editing spree just this week (props to @
Dhtwiki), I feel ready to tackle my second Featured Article nomination. Thank you to all commenters in advance!
IceWelder [
✉]
20:47, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The VG/S comment for Game Rant reads "Topics of low potential for controversy such as general pop culture topics or game information are allowable areas." I reduced its usage to the mention of the top-down view, which I think is invaluable to state. I also left the Reception comments intact for now, although I have no hard feelings in this regard. Would you say that this usage is justified in this case?
Voxagon is the blog of the game's designer, Dennis Gustafsson. It should be treated as a primary source.
IceWelder, ehh... I don't think if Game Rant should be here though. FAC demands high-quality sources, and Game Rant is not one. Additionally, many video game FAs don't use it at all. lunaeclipse(
talk)11:55, 18 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I think we have everything we need here content-wise, which means I'll focus on tweaks. I like the sleek leads of the last few video game articles and would prefer for the lead to be just a bit shorter. For the first paragraph I'd suggest something more like this (additions are underlined, omissions are not struck):
Teardown is a 2022 sandbox–puzzle video game developed and published by Tuxedo Labs. The game revolves around the owner of a financially stricken demolition company, who is caught undertaking a questionable job and becomes entangled between helping police investigations and taking on further dubious assignments. Teardown features levels made of destructible voxels, and the player follows the campaign through consecutive missions. In most missions, the player must collect or destroy objects connected to a security alarm, which triggers a timer. The player has unlimited time to prepare and is given upgradable tools, vehicles, and explosives to create a path within the level that allows them to complete the objectives and escape before the timer runs out.
The second paragraph feels like it tries to follow the twists and turns surrounding Bengtsson's involvement, but I don't think it's necessary to describe it here because it is not possible to adequately cover it with so few words, and the lead doesn't need more text. I'm not satisfied with my attempts to resolve it so I can't provide an example, yet. The third para seems fine.
I rewrote the portion around Bengtsson a bit to make it flow better. I didn't remove him outright as his involvement in the development seems large enough to warrant a lead mention.
IceWelder [
✉]
09:09, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Nice! Moving along:
Gameplay
The first sentence asserts that the game "is played from a first-person perspective", but it's a bit confusing since there's an in-game image displaying an apparent third-person perspective right beside the text.
"Some voxel materials require stronger tools to destroy." -- should probably be moved down a bit, the use of tools hasn't been introduced yet
"The spraycan can be used to mark points of interest." -- this feels a bit vague on its own, I think you'd need to elaborate on the utility of the spray can and/or points of interest.
"New structures can be erected using planks." -- one or a few examples of how this might help the player could be useful to the uninitiated.
"previous progress" -- level-specific?
"the player can design levels and objects by painting with voxels of various materials within the game world." -- I'd turn this into at least two sentences with a little more info on how the editor of this mode and it's interface works.
"Teardown on PCs highlights developer-curated mods" -- how are they highlited?
Reworded a bunch. Vehicles are driven from a third-person perspective, everything else happens in first-person. I'm having trouble finding a source for this, though (except for
this blog post, even
highlighted by the developer, but it would likely not stand a chance here). Perhaps I should exchange the image?
IceWelder [
✉]
13:29, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Yeah, such a shame that the sources ain't cooperating, but that's one way to resolve the mismatch.
After some scouring, I finally found that the review in Multiplayer.it (reliable per
WP:VG/S) mentions verbatim that "Teardown uses a first-person camera, but when you're driving machinery this will switch to a more useful third-person." It appears Google is no huge help when the target text is in Italian. I included the source to mention the camera shift, leaving the image as-is. Thank you for now, and safe travels!
IceWelder [
✉]
11:12, 30 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Dennis Gustafsson also worked on
Smash Hit, so that is another reason to review this FAC.
I don't see any issues with references themselves, some of them have been addressed above.
There are two images in the article and both of them are properly licensed, under the non-free licence.
Could add Portal:Video games at the bottom of the article (where it is supposed to be, according to
MOS:ORDER)?
Gameplay: New structures can be erected using planks. Could this be moved at the end of the first paragraph?
In the rest of this section, and the Plot, I did not find any problems. I will review the other two sections by the end of the week.
Hmm, the planks are part of the standard tool belt that can be upgraded (number, width, length), so it currently flows into the sentence about upgrades. Is there any particular way you would want me to rewrite this portion?
IceWelder [
✉]
09:54, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Post-launch content and console ports: Typo in "divsted".
I've read the rest of the article and did not notice any issues. The article is well-researched, this can be seen in the inclusion of foreign-language sources, for example. For the rest of the FA criteria, I think that this article does meet the listed criteria. I will change my vote towards support once the typo gets fixed.
Since there's already been some prose comments posted and a source formatting review, but no spotcheck, I'll do one within the next couple of days. I'll aim for checking about 50% of the articles references, which will hopefully be satisfactory. λNegativeMP119:27, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Hi, I'm still planning on doing this. I've gotten a few sources checked so far and added to a text document, but I haven't gotten to check 50% of them yet. Sorry for the wait, and hopefully I'll be done by this weekend. λNegativeMP108:27, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
File:Ken Doherty.jpg: CC-BY-SA 3.0 & GNU Free Documentation License.
File:Mark Williams at Snooker German Masters (DerHexer) 2015-02-05 01.jpg: CC-BY-SA 4.0
Some of these images have the persons facing right: this is usually recommended to be left-justified according to
MOS:IMAGELOC, although I have been told that this is not strictly a FA criteria requirement.
Images have proper alt-text.
It might be worthwhile to note that these are not images of them at this specific event in the captions — I initially thought so until I saw the dates myself. I believe that falls under prose though, so Support on image review.Generalissima (
talk) (it/she)
19:40, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Hi
Lee! I've listed some things that I noticed below; feel free to refuse with justification:
Before Gog comes through, you should change the reference titles to be all in title or sentence case - there's
an extension to assist in this if needed. Additionally, appropriate web/news links should be archived if they can (I'm sure you are familiar, but I would suggest using
IABot here).
I only just learned about this script the other day. I've run it, but it does cause some issues with mobile view, so I have to install it each time I need to run it, which isn't ideal. I do run IABot, however, due to some localising, some news sites cannot be archived through IABot (the Eurosport.co.uk links), so I've archived where I can. Lee Vilenski(
talk •
contribs)11:41, 22 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Overview looks great. Snooker terms that I would have otherwise not been familiar with are wikilinked appropriately, and are described in a way that is clear and isn't overwhelming. I would, however, suggest moving the footnote [a] to be after "modern era".
This was the fifth maximum compiled at the world championships; the first since O'Sullivan at the 1997 World Championship. - I'm not sure of the use of the semicolon here. I think "and the first" with a comma would read a little bit better.
...whilst Hunter perhaps drew on his two Masters finals wins to motivate him in the deciding frame. - Could you provide the text in the original literature that corroborates the "perhaps" in this sentence?
Mark Williams defeated seven-time champion and close friend Stephen Hendry 13–7. - I'm not sure of the relevance of including "close friend" here; it seems a bit extraneous.
The final was officiated by the Netherlands' Jan Verhaas, the youngest referee at a world final. - Has this been superseded by anyone else? I would word it a bit differently if so (something like "then the youngest referee to oversee a world final until [name] in [year]") but I understand if this is not appropriate.
Thank you for alerting us of this! In that case, I would say that the proposed revision would be better suited here, if you can find a source for Paul Collier's age in 2004.
joeyquism (
talk)
15:10, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I honestly found very little wrong with this article; most of it is already very well-written and comprehensive. As someone unfamiliar with snooker, I feel like I learned a lot from your clear elaborations. After these initial comments are addressed, I'll give it another read and see if I find anything wrong - if not, I will likely come back to take a supportive stance. Apologies if I came off as pedantic; however, I do hope that this review was at least a little bit helpful. Thank you for all your hard work, and I hope you have a great day!
joeyquism (
talk)
02:16, 22 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Four weeks in and just the single general support. Unless this nomination makes significant further progress towards a consensus to promote over the next two or three days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived.
Gog the Mild (
talk)
12:43, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Comments from HurricaneHiggins
Global comment
This article feels rather "thin" to me in comparison with other World Championship tournament articles that have Featured Article status. For instance, the summary section mentions nothing about the qualifiers and doesn't even mention who the debutants were in that year. The first-round summary mentions just 4 matches out of a possible 16 and the second-round summary also mentions just 4 matches out of a possible 8. And some of these mentions are just "this guy beat that guy." I would have liked the summary to go into a bit more depth and detail in order to convey more of a flavour of the tournament.
Lead
"This was the 27th consecutive year that the World Snooker Championship had been held at the Crucible, marking the 26th anniversary of the first staging of the event at this venue." This feels both confusing and redundant. How about "This was the 27th consecutive year that the World Snooker Championship was held at the Crucible, where it was first staged in 1977."
"became another first-time champion to fall to the Crucible curse" ... another? Of how many?
O'Sullivan's maximum break and his achievement in becoming the first player to make multiple Crucible 147s are surely lead-worthy?
In my view, the lead should mention who the debutants were that year and also give the century break total for the tournament.
Overview
This section mentions the popularity of snooker in China, Hong Kong, and Thailand, using references from 2015 and later. But this article is about the 2003 tournament, and so we seem to be talking about stuff that hasn't quite happened yet in the sport. Yes, the main stage featured two Asian players (Fu and Wattana), but Ding Junhui had not even turned pro yet, and so it seems premature to be talking about China in particular.
I would suggest moving the sentences about Joe Davis and the tournament moving to the Crucible to the start of the paragraph in which they feature.
"It was the ninth and last ranking event of the 2002–03 snooker season on the World Snooker Tour." Note that the brand "World Snooker Tour" was introduced as part of a 2020 rebrand of World Snooker. It didn't exist in 2003. People typically referred to the "main tour" at that time.
"The number of frames needed to win a match increased to 13 in the second round and quarter-finals, and 17 in the semi-finals; the final match was played as best-of-35-frames." It seems confusing to mix "best of" and "first to". "The second-round and quarter-final matches were the best of 25 frames, the semi-finals were best of 33, and the final was best of 35" would be more consistent.
"This was the fifth maximum compiled at the world championships and the first since O'Sullivan at the 1997 World Championship." This makes it sound like O'Sullivan himself is a maximum break. I'd suggest "This was the fifth maximum compiled at the World Championship and the first since O'Sullivan's maximum at the 1997 event."
"a 132 break in his first round match" -- hyphenate first-round match.
"Ebdon lead 4–3 ..." Should read "Ebdon led 4–3"
Quarter-finals
"The quarter-final was played" -- should be "The quarter-finals were played"
Semi-finals
"A condensed version of the match was showcased on BBC Two on 28 April 2020 in place of the 2020 World Snooker Championship which was postponed because of the coronavirus pandemic." How relevant is this? Or is it an example of recentism bias?
Final
"Jan Verhaas, the youngest referee at a world final." The article should probably note that while this was true at the time, Verhaas (then aged 36) is no longer the youngest to referee a world final. He was superseded in the 2004 final by Paul Collier (then aged 33), who in turn was superseded by Marcel Eckardt (then aged 30) in the 2020 final.
"Williams took an early lead in the final, leading at 6–2 after the first session, and extended the lead to 10–2 in the second session." Overly verbose, and it should be "led" not "lead". "Williams led 6–2 after the first session, and extended his lead to 10–2 in the second session."
"On the resumption in the third session, Doherty won six frames in-a-row" -- I'd suggest "In the third session, Doherty won six frames in a row" (do not hyphenate "in-a-row").
"The win allowed Williams to become world number one again, the first player to regain the position under the current ranking system and only the second overall after Ray Reardon." This may need clarification. The "current" ranking system (in 2024) is different from the ranking system used in 2003.
Down to Death and aftermath and again find myself with no comments. Great work: clearly the PR and GAN have strained it into the tightest article possible. More to come (hopefully sooner than before).
Tim O'Doherty (
talk)
21:33, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Comments from PMC
I love seeing obscure historical figures at FAC. I will try to get to this within a week; the full review will likely take me a bit as this is a chonky one! ♠
PMC♠
(talk)21:24, 9 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Comments
Lead
I'm not sure about the placement of "it later became the largest contiguous empire in history". It feels a bit of whiplash to go from "he ruled, after he died, he ruled"
I've removed a couple of phrases, I think it flows better now, and is better focused on the man.
"Reduced to near-poverty, they managed to survive" - could tighten this to "they survived near-poverty" (it's the "managed to" that feels most unnecessary)
"although Temüjin killed his half-brother Behter to secure his position" - what position did he secure? weren't they abandoned?
also, the "although" isn't really working here. Usually you'd use an "although" to say something that contrasts the first thing, but killing your brother to help yourself isn't really in contrast to white-knuckle survival
Addressing the above together: I've tightened the bit about poverty, removed the although, and specified that the killing was to secure the familial position.
"he began to gain followers" - do we know why or how? I know we need to be concise in the lead but it'd be nice to have context, even if it's just "His forceful personality" or "His ability to kill thirty dudes without breaking a sweat"
It's a bit jarring to discover that he had a wife at the same time as we're discovering she got kidnapped
Too many events, too little lead space. I've noted his charismatic personality and that they were newlyweds when she got kidnapped, to explain why she hasn't been mentioned earlier.
"possibly spending" - "and may have spent" sounds better to me, but I'm not gonna die on this hill
I like it.
"as a threat, and launched" channeling the comma master Sammi Brie here, you can remove this comma
"he then transformed" - you can ditch "then"
Done all.
RIP Khwarazmian Empire 1219, you guys blew it harder than a truck full of trumpets
I have no further gripes until the last part of the last paragraph. It feels odd to mention everybody else's feelings about him before the Mongolians.
I like it as a personal touch: it means the lead ends on a stable, simple note.
Also, "his legacy has undergone considerable reassessment in recent Western scholarship" doesn't actually tell us what his legacy was reassessed from or to
"In addition to "Genghis", introduced into English during the 18th century based on a misreading of Persian sources" - is there any more detail about this? Who introduced the error, why sources were misread, why it became the popular usage vs anything else?
This sort of thing happens fairly often with transliterations—if an early, well-read translation gets things wrong, the incorrect term tends to stick.. I'm fairly certain some source specified "French scholars" misread the Persian, but I can't remember where I read that.
Unsurprising, considering I didn't know that was a thing. Should be fixed.
is "received text" a general technical term? I'm not familiar with it and when I google it, it appears to apply to Biblical text
I was not personally familiar with it either,
Remsense introduced it in
this edit. I have reverted to the earlier version, does that work better?
"The most important Persian source" according to who?
Everyone. Ratchnevsky considers it second only to the Secret History, while Morgan notes that all Persian writers are eclipsed in importance by it.
Early life
Who's Paul Pelliot
Defined.
"1162 remains the most accepted date" why? best evidence, most agreement? If it's sheer numbers, you may want to reword to something like "1162 is the date accepted by most historians" or something
Done.
"but this has been placed" unclear what this refers to in this context. Does "this" mean Genghis' birthplace or the true location of Delüün Boldog?
Both, rephrased to hopefully clarify.
"The most prominent is that of a blood clot he clutched in his hand as he was born" - could maybe simplify to "The most prominent is that at birth, he clutched a blood clot in his hand"
Done, sort of, didn't want too much repetition of "birth".
"However, the Tatars recognised their old enemy, and slipped poison" rm second comma
Done.
Since Hö'elün is so prominent in the adolescence subsection, perhaps an image of her? I won't insist
My instinctual response was "that's not possible", but then I remembered that the Mongolian freedom of panorama laws have recently been updated, and it is indeed possible!
Rise to power - early campaigns
A number of questions here and in subsequent sections may be a result of my own ignorance of Mongolian history and/or my sometimes goldfish-esque memory. If the answer to anything I've asked is "you've misunderstood something really basic" or "it's the thing I mentioned two paragraphs ago", please say so and that's on me.
"Temüjin then chose" - lose "then"
Done.
So Genghis Khan regifted the sable cloak?
Yes. It may seem odd to focus on the transaction history of a single item, but I think everyone does because it highlights a) the family's lack of wealth, where one cloak is a big deal to them and b) the very practical, mercurial nature of life on the steppe.
The thing is, right now the passive voice puts the focus on Toghrul receiving the cloak in a way that skates over the significance of Temujin giving it. If you want to highlight what you've noted above (and I agree it's worth doing), I would rephrase it into active voice. Also, the implication of the connection between the first half (Toghrul rules but is suspicious of his own people) and the second half (Toghrul gets bribed with a sweet coat and loves Genghis Khan) isn't super clear. Is it like...he's suspicious of his own guys and that makes him susceptible to Genghis who is new and brings gifts? Is it that he's suspicious of everyone including Genghis who only barely manages to seduce him because he has a cool coat? Or a secret third thing?
Ah, hopefully clarified now.
There we go. I did make a tweak to get rid of followers twice in one sentence, but revise it at your leisure if you like.
I guess here again is the question of how/why Genghis "began to build a following" - was he just incredibly charismatic, or was he getting up to impressive deeds that made people want to follow him at so young an age?
Some is discussed in the Character section, but also people who are known to be close to the most powerful do tend to attract attention, simply by virtue of their position.
This is a nitpick, but "Temüjin and Jamukha camped together for a year and a half, during which, according to the Secret History, they reforged their anda pact, even sleeping together under one blanket." feels very comma-heavy. Any way it could be revised?
My arch-nemeses, these commas. Half of them have been exiled.
Also, why were they camping together? Was there another campaign going (the previous para says "the campaign was soon won" so I assume this takes places after that campaign) or were they just boys being boys?
Ah, this is on me not remembering the very different modern conception of "camping together". It's a nomadic society, so "camping" is not just a jaunt to the wilderness, it's the home of you, your family, your followers, and their families. To camp with another leader is to say "mi casa es su casa" except more, because it also implies "my followers are your followers, my authority is your authority, etc." I don't know if there's a way to explain that in a few words, but I've had a go.
Right, duh, sorry, that was absolutely one of those goldfish brain comments on my part.
I'm not sure the difference between anda and nokor is sufficiently clear for it to be impactful that Jamukha might have become a nokor. Can this be clarified a little?
Simplified into plain English.
"ostensibly on account of a cryptic remark made by Jamukha on the subject of camping" any more about this? Was it related to camping generally or like... their boys trip specifically
I can tell you exactly what the cryptic remark is:
If we camp close to the hill those who herd our horses will have their tents. If we camp beside the mountain stream those who herd our sheep and lambs will have food for their gullets.
Make of that what you will.
So Borte is Lady MacBething Genghis Khan, here?
No comment.
Hah! I was partly being snarky but also it's a significant point that I think is getting a bit glossed over. Genghis Khan, the conquering king, the barbarian emperor, the absolute textbook example of Ambition Embodied - his wife's ambitions may have outweighed his? I think it's worth getting into, if we can, because the idea that the greatest conqueror in history may have been nudged into conquest by his wife is quite something.
I've reread the sources and I think I was reading too much into one sentence in May 2018, so I've rewritten that part in line to also accomodate a reviewer below.
Looks good to me.
"forty-one leaders joined Temüjin" along the lines of the camping together question, was there a campaign going? Else what are they joining him for?
No, they're just setting up their loyalties. It was probably obvious to all that hostilities were going to break out, and they would need to choose a side. I've also added a sentence on what was attractive about Temüjin at this point.
Right, yes, camping thing again.
Temujin acclaimed as khan - solely because of the successful campaign against the Merkits?
No, because he had gained the support of forty-one leaders and lots of commoners, and they wanted to say "we serve the Mongol khan!" instead of "we serve this random Mongol leader" (it just sounds better).
Makes sense.
I love getting to include a sentence like "this guy lied and said they won, but it's obvious he was lying after the fact, because of the obvious lies"
"Temüjin was able to subdue the disobedient Jurkin tribe" as a matter of chronology I might introduce this factoid earlier when discussing the Tatar campaign. This might be a personal quirk but to me it always feels a little odd to insert things in the format of "by the way, this happened earlier and here's what he did as a result".
I think too much is going on in the previous paragraph to say "oh by the way this random tribe refused to join"—they are only DUE a mention because of how Temüjin dealt with them.
I see where you're coming from, I still I don't love it, but I won't die on the hill of it
"dissatisfied tribes including the Onggirat, the Tayichiud, and the Tatars, swore to break" rm last comma I think
Cocking commas.
"existing social norms" "existing" seems redundant? if they didn't exist, they wouldn't be norms, right?
That seems fair.
"but though the ensuing battle still lasted three days" I'm not sure about the "still lasted" phrasing here. It feels like the implication is that it's unusual the Kereit held out that long despite being caught unawares - was it unusual?
Yes. A three-day battle is extraordinarily long, especially for a surprise attack.
Early reign
Why engage in extensive discussion of the title Genghis Khan here when you have a whole section for that above? Feel like it distracts from the history
I tried that originally, but you run into having to explain who Jamukha was and why Genghis wouldn't want to hold the title that Jamukha had held, and the general reader still wouldn't really understand until they'd learnt the whole Genghis—Jamukha story.
Mmmmm...okay.
It's not deeply important, but why "white bone" and "black bone" as titles?
The bones are the structure of the body, the white bones are the purest (as they are meant to be), the black bones are those that have been removed (?) something like that idk
I agree with Kusma below that linking "military
decimal system" in this way is odd, as the "decimal" article doesn't really explain a military decimal system. I might unlink it entirely
Unlinked.
"even after the division of the Mongol Empire" when
Various points in the late 13th and early/mid-14th centuries
"whose father Münglig had previously been allowed to marry Hö'elün" this is confusing. When did this happen?
After Münglig defected to Temujin in the "Defeating rivals" section.
"When Temüge, Genghis's youngest brother, attempted to intervene he too was publicly shamed." by Genghis again, I assume?
It feels mildly confusing to go from Borte warning Genghis who still reveres the shaman to suddenly Genghis allowing Temuge to kill the guy. I'm normally the "cut the fat" poster child but I think some insulation here might help the abruptness
"...allowing Temüge to have Kokechu killed, he usurped the shaman's position as the Mongols' highest spiritual authority." Genghis assumed the shaman's position, or Temuge did by killing Kokechu?
I've rewritten some of the sentences in this section, so hopefully should be clear now; you have a lot of people acting variously in concert with and against each other, so it does get a little confusing.
The whole section is much clearer, thank you.
Perhaps this is just my browser size and use of V10 instead of V22, but the image on the left breaks the "Campaign against the Jin" subheader ever so lightly, shoving it off to the right. add {{clear}} maybe?
I think it's fine, most readers will be using V22.
Really not a lot to gripe about here. I think I said something like this in the Shigi Qutuqu FAC, but your prose is really top-notch. I appreciate your ability (and willingness!) to summarize things in a way that gets the important ideas across but doesn't get bogged down in detail
Thanks! Helps that there's a lot to summarize and not much space for the detail anyway.
Later reign
"might be a potential threat" feels redundant, I think one or the other is enough
Edited.
"Muhammad had however grown" - the placement of the "however" feels odd. "Muhammad, however, had grown" seems more typical (but - not dying on the hill of it)
I do think that same sentence is a bit overlong and comma-heavy, and might split it somewhere
I've rewritten the sentence, so the however is gone entirely along with many commas.
"Peter Golden" who's this
Completely random dude, no idea why he's mentioned (no not really).
Poor Muhammad II, history's poster child for fucking around and finding out. "Bewildered by the speed of the Mongol conquests". Buddy. Dude. My guy.
The {{convert}} template here wants to have the adjective parameter on to correct the grammar
That's a thing??
It sure is
I know he's a minor figure, but it feels odd that Shigi Qutuqu is only first mentioned here despite being Mr Genghis' adopted son.
If it's any consolation, there are lots of blood sons who don't get mentions at all?
I am consoled by this, yes :P
"and losing decisively" - maybe "after losing decisively" or "after a decisive loss"?
" he was compelled to swim across the Indus river into India" this is kind of hilarious but - compelled by whom? By his own decision, to escape with his life? Or by the victorious Mongols as a punishment?
The former. There's a nice picture of it on the left.
It is a pretty great image
"the omens were additionally unfavourable" this is mostly curiosity, but any idea what omens?
Genghis didn't get the right responses from a sheep's shoulder he was in the habit of caressing. Also, a unicorn appeared and said "Your ruler must go back home". This was either a rhino, or the shamans getting too high, or both.
I wish a unicorn would tell me it's time to go home when I'm sick of being at work
Again this may be my browser/V10 usage, but the image captioned "Depiction of Jalal al-Din crossing the Indus River..." unattractively bumps the subheader and the hatnote on the left
I kinda like that, sorry.
I hate that you like it, but it's not worth fighting over
Family / Death and aftermath / Character
Combining these sections under one as I don't have very many comments for them. Generally I find them to be well-written, thorough summaries of difficult, interesting aspects (especially Legacy, which could likely have its own article)
The placement of the family section between his later reign and his death puzzles me. It feels jarring, since we've been proceeding along chronologically and suddenly we're interrupting that to lay out his family tree and succession.
I've rearranged so that that it goes death, succession, family, everything else: that better?
Yeah
It also feels odd that the family section hatnotes
Descent from Genghis Khan but does not discuss it whatsoever
Removed.
Context for Marco Polo and Carpini? I know Marco Polo is pretty famous, but he's not necessarily universally famous, and Carpini is much less so.
They're mentioned in the sources section, that's where all the source-context goes.
Sure but even in the sources section they don't get any context, just "works by Europeans such as Carpini and Marco Polo".
I don't know what context would be helpful—I could say "later European travellers"?
Travellers, explorers, something like that. A little bit to set up the perspective they were coming in with, you know? If they were mercenaries they're going to have different biases than if they were missionaries or merchants (I didn't set out to be alliterative there, but I'll leave it)
The footnote about Juzjani and Zhao Hong could work in-text, although I won't insist if you prefer it as a note
Oh, don't get me started. That bit has been fought over by sockpuppets innumerable since time immemorial, and I think the current version is actually agreeable to all sides, so I'm reluctant to make any changes.
Really?? What a bizarre thing for people to fight about.
Yeah, it's part of the Turkic vs non-Turkic ethnic group/genetics battle that keeps going off.
"showed good judgement in choosing his heir" - this feels like a subjective opinion expressed in wikivoice. Can we give some context to it? Even "modern historians agree" would be fine
Done.
Legacy
Left-aligned image under "Legacy" bumps the subheader again
That one I will move.
"the empire started to split" - I might give some context as to when. 5 years after his death? 30? 100?
"in which he will return" - perhaps better phrased as "which says he will return"
Done all.
Are there any images of the banknotes or postage stamps? Any "pop culture"-y images of Genghis?
Added a couple, also thanks to the new FoP laws.
I don't find the Mongolia section to be overdue or over-filled in the least, but I think the "Elsewhere" section could be expanded. The opinions of Russia and the entire Muslim world are each concluded in one sentence. There's really no more to be said?
I'll come back to you on that.
Further, it feels odd to hatnote "Genghis Khan in popular culture" but not actually discuss portrayals of him in pop culture
Removed.
I would detach the sentence about Russia and the sentence about the Muslim world from the paragraphs they are attached to, and make them into a separate paragraph
Okay! We've reached the end of the rainbow at last. This is an incredible piece of work and you should be proud of it. Take your time responding, I know I've left you with a lot. Cheers! ♠
PMC♠
(talk)15:13, 17 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I've left some comments above - mainly agreement with context, one or two further suggestions. If I didn't respond, it's fine and there was nothing to say. Once again, really fantastic work here. ♠
PMC♠
(talk)20:10, 2 July 2024 (UTC)reply
File:YuanEmperorAlbumGenghisPortrait.jpg - Clearly public domain. Good to go.
File:Secret history.jpg - Public domain.
File:Jame' al-Tavarikh (Compendium of Chronicles) manuscript by Rashid al-Din Fazlullah, Iran, early 15th century AD, ink, watercolour, and gold on paper - Aga Khan Museum - Toronto, Canada - DSC06735.jpg - Own work upload, book itself in public domain.
File:OnonRiver.jpg - Own work upload.
File:Burkhan Khaldun mount3.jpg - CC-BY-SA 2.0 upload from Flickr.
File:Djengiz Khân et Toghril Ong Khan.jpeg - Public domain.
File:Serven Khaalga inscription.jpg - Hmm. The inscription is public domain, but the image lacks author information, and comes from a 2009 work. Just because the image contains inscriptions of an ancient law code, I'm not so sure it falls under the Mongolian copyright exemption listed.
File:Mongol Empire c.1207.png Made and uploaded by a Wikipedia user, good.
File:Temüjin proclaimed as Genghis Khan in 1206 Jami' al-tawarikh manuscript.jpg - Public domain.
File:Mongol Invasion of China.png Made and uploaded by a Wikipedia user.
File:Bataille entre mongols & chinois (1211).jpeg - Public domain.
File:Chingiz Khan in battle - Collection of epic poems (1397-1398), f.49v - BL Or. 2780.jpg - Public domain.
File:Siège de Beijing (1213-1214).jpeg - Public domain.
File:Genghis Khan empire-switch.svg - Translation of an own-work-upload map uploaded by a Wikipedia user, good.
File:Jalal al-Din Khwarazm-Shah crossing the rapid Indus river, escaping Chinggis Khan and his army.jpg - Public domain.
File:YuanEmperorAlbumOgedeiPortrait.jpg - Public domain.
File:Genghis Khan with sons (Marco Polo, 1400s).jpg - Public domain.
File:Emperoryuandinastycollage.jpg - Compilation of public domain images.
File:モンゴル政府宮殿あおり2023.jpg - Own-work upload by a Wikipedia user.
Licensing-side, everything seems good except that Serven Khaalga inscription (which is, IMO, the weakest image used in the article anyhow). The images seem high quality, relevant to the subject, and I can't think of anything that needs more illustration. However, there is some formatting concerns:
Sandwiching issues near the beginning of the "Early life" section: I would put both the images of books there on the right side (it almost always is the best place to put them anyhow) and move them up a little bit.
The Temüjin and Toghrul could be argued to go either per
MOS:IMAGELOC, but when it doubt, right-align it.
File:Temüjin proclaimed as Genghis Khan in 1206 Jami' al-tawarikh manuscript.jpg should also be right-aligned.
Both maps should be right-aligned.
On the flipside, the portraits in the Bust Portraits of Yuan Dynasty Emperors are facing right, so should be left-aligned as to face towards the text.
I've moved the sources images up to prevent sandwiching, and switched the alignment of certain images. I think the remaining images look better on the left.
The discussions here make it clear that
MOS:IMAGELOC should not be a blanket prohibition against left-aligned images. To my knowledge, there are no actual accessibility concerns with left-aligned images, other than "look a little to the right to find the next words".
~~ AirshipJungleman29 (
talk)
12:13, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Many images have proper alt-text, but the infobox image, the three images detailing the Mongol-Jin conflict, the crossing the Indus one, the portrait compilation, and the Government Palace are missing it.
Fair justification (no pun intended) on the left-aligned images. Alt-text, sandwiching, and the potentially mis-licensed image resolved. Seems good to go — Support on image review. Good work as always.
Generalissima (
talk) (it/she)
14:41, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment by Buidhe
At the article's present length, I am unable to support it. In terms of concrete suggestions on how to reduce length while maintaining comprehensiveness, I would suggest reducing the length of
Genghis_Khan#Mongolia by half and moving that content to another more appropriate article. Seems rather UNDUE to write twice as much about how he is perceived in Mongolia compared to the rest of the world. (
t ·
c) buidhe02:25, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I also wonder why it would be undue for the article to heavily discuss how Genghis Khan, probably the most famous Mongolian to ever walk on planet earth, is perceived in Mongolia. It would be odder to focus more on his perception everywhere else, I should think. ♠
PMC♠
(talk)05:44, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
What this passage suggests is that his impact everywhere else, and attention paid to him, combined of the entire rest of the world is half that for Mongolia, which is not plausible to me. The section also goes into substantial detail that may not be necessary for the reader to understand the subject as a historical figure. (
t ·
c) buidhe05:51, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
9.6K is easily under the recommended 10k size. Since there is room, this argument would be much more persuasive if reversed: there should be more on Genghis Khan's impact on the non-Mongol world. As the single most important person in Mongolia history, it seems essential that the reader understands how his reception has fundamentally changed over time in his native country. I can't see trimming resulting in anything but oversimplification. Aza24 (talk)06:08, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I too don't think the article too long. I read it twice at Peer Review and found it no hardship, and have just given it a third perusal for FAC, with a fourth and final one to come. It is fully manageable, and is a lot shorter than some existing FAs. I don't know enough about the topic to say whether this or that section should be expanded or trimmed, but as a whole I find the article entirely satisfying. Tim riley talk06:48, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
That article should not have been promoted. It does not meet the FA criteria imv and would benefit from a more aggressive approach to improve conciseness by moving details to sub-articles, which would improve readability while preserving encyclopedic information for those readers seeking additional detail. (
t ·
c) buidhe13:32, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I think it's an issue with #4, length, and #1d because of excessive detail that is better covered in sub-articles and incorrect relative size of sections. Even if you think the overall length of the article is OK, it does not mean that all content that is currently in the article belongs. (
t ·
c) buidhe13:29, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Barring further evidence, I will take objections to the length as subjective—I personally feel that it is fine, and I am glad to see that others agree with me above.
On whether the Mongolia section is too long I would point out that Genghis has been the most prominent figure in Mongolian culture, only rivalled by the Buddha, for most of the past 500 years. He has been alternately a deity, a legendary figure, a national hero, a national villain, and a founding father. Please note also that this article is about Genghis Khan personally, not the Mongol Empire, and that the man's personal impact on Mongolia has been far more consequential than his impact on the rest of the world, much of which is hard to distinguish from the impact of his successors. Genghis himself never went further West than modern Afghanistan, he only campaigned in Northern China, etc. Yes, his name is remembered much further afield—but only his name.
As Aza says above, I would be far more open to a conversation on expanding the "Elsewhere" subsection. But saying that the "Mongolia" subsection should be trimmed, is for me like protesting that
Joseph Stalin#Legacy is overwhelmingly focused on the Soviet Union.
~~ AirshipJungleman29 (
talk)
13:48, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
If the prose size was north of 10k, I'd agree for trimming, but I think the legacy section is fine. A
Legacy of Genghis Khan article might be very interesting, but I feel it's already pretty well summarized here, especially for a figure so central to the foundation of Mongolia (and whose empire had not yet reached the Eurasia-spanning heights upon his death)
Generalissima (
talk) (it/she)
14:37, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
This is a very key point here. As an individual, Genghis's importance to the outside world is heavily dwarfed by the Mongolian empire. Much of the empire's advances and effects occurred after his death, giving him an indirect (albeit essential one) connection to them. Aza24 (talk)18:04, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Although I think prose size is not a problem, I tend to agree with suggestions about a more concise "Legacy and historical assessment" section, and the creation of a separate article about Genghis's legacy. My concern is that for the time being the section implies that he is first of all a Mongolian national hero, although he was one of the most important rulers and military leaders in universal history.
Borsoka (
talk)
01:54, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Matarisvan
Hi
AirshipJungleman29, I appreciate that you took up this monumental task. My comments:
"later became the largest contiguous empire": This might be pedantic, but could we specify the year? The link says 1270 or 1309 was the year when the Mongol Empire reached its peak area.
No—"borders" (if they can even be called such) fluctuated significantly, along with questions of subdivision autonomy and internal cohesion.
"in the Mongolian steppe": "on" would be better instead of "in"?
Perhaps—changed.
"Ibn al-Athir's Al-Kamil fi al-Tarikh (lit.)": reword to "the Al-Kamil fi al-Tarikh (lit.) by Ibn Al-Athir" to avoid SEAOFBLUE?
There is an " 's " in between the links; if that is insufficient I will do as you suggest.
Was Hoelun pledged to Kokechu or Munglig? Consider rewording this sentence? Also do excuse my not using diacritics.
Rephrased those sentences.
Below the Defeating rivals section, could we add a See also template linking to Mongol conquest of Central Asia and Mongol conquest of Siberia? These articles have a lot of detail on the subjugation of rival tribes which readers might want to read.
I don't think that would be a good idea for three reasons: a) the "Defeating rivals" section would definitely be the wrong place for that, b) those articles contain information on various campaigns over multiple years, thus not fitting into any one section, and c) I regard those articles as
WP:SYNTHesised messes, as can be seen from
this discussion.
Why did Genghis dislike Wanyan Yongji? Do any sources or historians speak or speculate on this?
No, sorry.
Translate or explain chevauchee in one or two words per NOFORCELINK?
I don't believe this falls under NOFORCELINK any more than mountain passes or siege engineers in the same paragraph, but if it does, I'll just replace the word.
Do we know which cities in the Gansu Corridor were granted clemency, or at least their number against the total?
Ganzhou and
Xiliangfu are specifically mentioned, but I think that level of detail is more suited for the dedicated campaign article, when I get around to it.
Link to Siege of Gurganj?
Already linked.
Why do we have nothing on the tumens? We have details on the minqads and their composite decimals but not the tumens and how Genghis reorganised them in a way which differed from the Magyars.
The minqan was the fundamental unit of society; the tümen was merely a military designation of many (not always ten) minqad. In any case, they were much less important under Genghis than subsequently—many minqad were not even assigned to a tümen, and the sources do not describe them in detail, showing their lack of real use in this period. I don't believe there is anything in the major sources about differentiation from the Magyars—that seems odd, considering the decimal system had been widely used in eastern military organisation.
In the Later Reign section, could we have a new subsection titled Other campaigns, and include details on the early invasions of India and the Kievan Rus, respectively the raids on Lahore and Multan by Dorbei and Bala and the Battle of the Kalka River, both of which were approved by Genghis?
Jebe and Subutai's expedition is mentioned in the third paragraph of the Khwarazmian Empire section; Dorbei's pursuit of Jalal al-Din, unsuccessful and no more than 42 days in length, has not received much attention in RS, so I think an entire subsection would be undue.
In the family or character section, could we mention that Genghis endeavoured greatly to educate his willing children, as mentioned in the article on Shigi Qutuqu?
"Endeavoured greatly" is not supported by the sources, which only state that he appointed a captured scribe as a tutor.
In the family section, could we mention Batu Khan as the son of Jochi, since we have already done so for Mongke and Kublai as the sons of Tolui? Also, could we add Hulegu as another son of Tolui? Otherwise we could be seen as leaning towards the Yuan and Chagatais and passing over the Golden Horde and Ilkhanate.
Hulegu is already mentioned, as part of the later imperial line, while no son of Chagatai is. I don't see a reason to mention Batu, nor how the article can be construed as "leaning towards the Yuan and passing over the Ilkhanate" when the section does not mention the former but does the latter.
"killing nokod who wavered in their loyalties": do we have any more details on this, the number of people so killed or the underlying circumstances? I think at least the number of such deaths should be mentioned.
The history of the Mongol Empire is not friendly to numbers. Incidents covered in this article include Kokechu, who attempted to take power, and almost Genghis' brother Qasar, who he always distrusted; not mentioned are followers who acclaimed him as khan in 1187 but subsequently turned against him.
Since we have the Family section between the Later reign and Death sections, could we remind readers that the siege we mention was around Zhongxing?
Good call.
What was Altan Khan's religion before converting to Tibetan Buddhism? Was it Tengrism, Taoism, Confucianism, Islam, Christianity? Whichever one it was, consider mentioning?
Probably shamanism, but it's unimportant to this article.
"the martial bodhisattva Vajrapani": consider rewording to "Vajrapani, the martial bodhisattva" to avoid SEAOFBLUE?
Done
Translate glasnost and peretroika per NOFORCELINK?
No, they're well-used terms in English.
In the Legacy section, I am inclined to partially agree with the assessment by
Buidhe that we focus too much on Mongolia, although I don't think that section should be trimmed but instead maintained as is. I believe we have ignored Genghis' legacy in Northwest, South and Southeast Asia. I believe we could add a paragraph on how Genghis is viewed in Korea, Japan and Southeast Asia. Also, we mention Timur only once, but it is important to note that Timur, his Timurid dynasty and the Mughals claimed legitimacy primarily due to their claimed descent from Genghis. We should consider mentioning that.
I am open to expanding the "Elsewhere" section—the Timur link is a good one, and I will muse on that. Seeing as Genghis never reached Korea, and none of his successors reached south/southeast Asia or Japan, I feel confident in saying that there is likely very little in high-quality scholarship on those topics, but I am open to being corrected.
Hi
Matarisvan, I have significantly expanded the "elsewhere" section with details on Genghis's historical evaluation in the Muslim world, his role as legitimator in various states and societies, and his current position in Central Asia and Japan. I have not found anything on his legacy in South and Southeast Asia, nor how he is viewed there. Hope that satisfies you.
~~ AirshipJungleman29 (
talk)
14:48, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Hi @
AirshipJungleman29, the content you added was great. I don't know how I forgot about this but you should introduce the topic of the
Gurkani. The word in Persian means son-in-law, specifically of women from Genghis' line. It is how the Timurids and the Mughals identified themselves, they did not self-identify as the two words I have used here and which are commonly used today to refer to them. Also, the Mughals were often mocked for being mere son-in-laws of Genghis' descendants and not being the descendants themselves, I don't know if the Timurids were as well.
Hi
Matarisvan, I've added a line on Timur marrying into Genghis's line, but I think any more detail would be
WP:UNDUE. I am aware of the books you've mentioned but don't think they provide that much more relevant detail. If you disagree please let me know.
~~ AirshipJungleman29 (
talk)
12:02, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
In the biblio, to maintain consistency, you will have to link to: The International History Review, Kim Hodong, Marie Favereau, Peter Golden, The Cambridge History of Inner Asia, George A. Lane, Hachette Books, Frank McLynn, Jack Weatherford.
Good catches all.
Change the website for Craig 2017 from www.bbc.com to just BBC?
Done.
Why have we used Hung 1951 here, when in the article on Shigi Qutuqu we preferred to use newer, updated sources?
At Shigi Qutuqu, the relevant parts of Hung 1951 discussed the authorship of the Secret History, which today, nearly seventy-five years later, is a debate that is still raging—there is no point citing seventy-five year old sources for a current debate. By contrast, in this article it is used to cite a definite fact which is unlikely to change, and which Hung 1951 remains the most in-depth discussion of—the matter of the Secret History's transmission.
I was one of the peer reviewers last year; my fairly extensive comments then were thoroughly dealt with. After rereading for FAC I have nothing to add, and I am happy to support promotion to FA. This warts-and-all presentation of the man seems to me admirably balanced, the historical context is clearly explained, the sourcing is formidable and generally up to date, the illustrations are splendid and the prose highly readable. I could do without some of the slightly unnecessary blue links – age of majority, clemency, command structure, defection, discipline, fortifications, funeral procession, royal court and wrestling for instance – but I don't press the point. The article meets all the FA criteria in my view. – Tim riley talk13:23, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Born between 1155 and 1167 and given the name Temüjin, he was the eldest child of Yesugei,... Using "eldest" because it is the correct term in British English for the firstborn child, providing greater clarity and precision.
I've never heard that before—can I have a source?
In British English, "eldest" is preferred over "oldest" when referring to the firstborn child in a family, which aligns with the formal tone required for a featured article. Source - Oxford English Dictionary (OED): "Eldest" is specifically used for people, particularly within a family context, while "oldest" can refer to people or things in a general sense. The OED definition clarifies this usage distinction【56†source】.
When Temüjin was eight, his father died and his family was abandoned by their tribe. Using "their" in place of "its".
Tim riley pointed out at the PR that this changes the subject from singular to plural mid-sentence.
Reduced to poverty, they managed to survive, although Temüjin killed his half-brother Behter to secure his position. Dropped "near" before "poverty".
Why?
As he grew to manhood, he gained followers and formed alliances with two prominent steppe leaders, Jamukha and Toghrul; they collaborated to retrieve Temüjin's kidnapped wife, Börte. You could also retain "worked together" but the rest of the suggested version is a definite improvement.
Partially done.
Temüjin retreated, then regrouped and overpowered Toghrul; after defeating the Naiman tribe and executing Jamukha, he was left as the sole ruler on the Mongolian steppe. ...he was left as the sole ruler on the Mongolian steppe. could be replaced with ...he became the sole ruler of the Mongolian steppe. for a more concise phrase.
That wouldn't work with "after" at the beginning of the phrase, so I am inclined against the change.
In 1209 he led a large-scale raid into the neighbouring Western Xia, who agreed to Mongol terms the following year. and In 1227 Genghis died while subduing the rebellious Western Xia;... Dropped the comma as it follows the British convention of not placing a comma after introductory phrases.
Never heard that before either—can I have a source?
The same convention has been followed in the articles of British politicians, businessmen and members of the British royal family. According to The Blue Book of Grammar and Punctuation, the comma after introductory phrases is often considered optional if the phrase is brief and clear. This aligns with contemporary editing practices that frequently omit the comma for conciseness and readability when the meaning remains unambiguous. Links-
[17],
[18] and
[19].
I don't think two commas greatly reduce concision, and in fact they enhance readability to me.
This source indicates that using commas with introductory phrases is the traditional route in BrE, so I'll continue using them.
~~ AirshipJungleman29 (
talk)
14:56, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The Mongol army under Genghis killed millions, yet his conquests also facilitated unprecedented commercial and cultural exchange across a vast geographical area. Preferred version.
There is no universal system for romanising Mongolian; consequently, modern spellings of Mongolian names vary significantly and can lead to considerably different pronunciations from the original.
The location of Temüjin's birth is similarly debated; the Secret History records his birthplace as Delüün Boldog on the Onon River but this has been placed at either Dadal in Khentii Province or in southern Agin-Buryat Okrug, Russia. Replaced the colon with a semi-colon and dropped a redundant comma.
Done the first, not the second.
When Temüjin was eight years old, his father decided to betroth him to a suitable girl. Yesügei took him to the pastures of Hö'elün's prestigious Onggirat tribe, which had intermarried with the Mongols on many previous occasions. By using this version (or similar ones), the use of "he" becomes clearer.
Good call.
As the betrothal meant Yesügei would gain a powerful ally and as Börte commanded a high bride price, Dei Sechen held the stronger negotiating position, and demanded that Temüjin remain in his household to work off his future debt. Dropped the comma after "ally".
Done.
Adolescence
Taking up a hunter-gatherer lifestyle, they collected roots and nuts, hunted for small animals and caught fish. Dropped the last comma as it is unnecessary.
I will return with further suggestions later. Looking forward to your response @
AirshipJungleman29 both to these as well as to the previous comments. It's been quite sometime since I last heard from you. Regards
MSincccc (
talk)
03:40, 16 June 2024 (UTC)reply
His contemporary Juvayni, who had travelled twice to Mongolia and attained a high position in the administration of a Mongol successor state, was more sympathetic. Added "a" before "high position in the administration..." which is more grammatically correct.
Done.
Juzjani was an eyewitness to the brutality of the Mongol conquests, and the hostility mentioned in his chronicle reflects his experiences. I suppose you refer to the hostility of the accounts mentioned in Juzjani's article; hence this phrase is more suitable in British English.
No, I refer to "the hostility of his chronicle".
Will an article on
Zhao Hong (Song diplomat) be created anytime in the near future? If not, should the red link still be retained?
See
WP:REDLINK—I see no reason why the article could not be created.
As Temüjin was only around ten and Behter around two years older, neither was considered old enough to rule. Dropped redundant comma.
Removed.
Both Temüjin and Behter had claims to be their father's heir; although Temüjin was the child of Yesügei's chief wife, Behter was at least two years his senior. Replaced colon with a semi-colon.
The clauses are related, so a colon is
proper use.
Behter's younger brother Belgutei did not seek vengeance and became one of Temüjin's highest-ranking followers alongside Qasar. Dropped "full-" before brother.
The distinction is important. Belgutei was also Temüjin's brother, but not his full-brother.
Genghis Khan reorganized Mongol society into a military decimal system to diminish traditional tribal loyalties.
No, it was not to diminish loyalties, it was to break the whole concept of loyalty to tribes.
In a demonstration of Genghis Khan's meritocratic ideals, many of his trusted generals hailed from humble backgrounds: according to Ratchnevsky, figures like Jelme and Subutai, sons of blacksmiths, as well as a carpenter, a shepherd, and even the two herdsmen who warned Temüjin of Toghrul's plans in 1203.
The first half misrepresents the source, the second half doesn't make grammatical sense.
No they were just minor suggestion from my end. Are you disappointed with them? Anyways, I will be leaving detailed suggestions for the rest of the article later. Looking forward to your response @
~~ AirshipJungleman29.
MSincccc (
talk)
16:14, 22 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I have read upto Later reign: western expansion and return to China (1216–1227) and will leave further suggestions later.
MSincccc (
talk)
15:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Invasion of the Khwarazmian Empire (1219-1221)
Genghis had now assumed complete control of the eastern portion of the Silk Road, and his territory bordered that of the Khwarazmian Empire, which ruled over much of Central Asia, Persia and Afghanistan.
Don't see the "attained"-->"assumed" improvement.
Muhammad's empire was large but disunited; he ruled alongside his mother Terken Khatun in what Peter Golden terms "an uneasy diarchy",... Replaced colon with semi-colon. You could also introduce
Peter Benjamin Golden in a word or two.
The clauses are related, so a colon is
proper use. Glossed Mr Golden.
Leaving his sons Chagatai and Ogedei to besiege the city,... Suggested phrase.
Added.
Jalal al-Din moved southwards to Afghanistan, gathering forces on the way and defeating a Mongol unit under the command of Shigi Qutuqu, Genghis's adopted son, in the Battle of Parwan. Could this sentence be rephrased in order fro it to become clearer as far as its meaning is concerned?
What is unclear? Jalal al-Din moved southwards, gathering forces. At the Battle of Parwan, he defeated a Mongol detachment commanded by Genghis's adopted son, Shigi Qutuqu. Seems fine to me.
...—a number regarded as grossly exaggerated by modern scholars.
...is there a change?
Return to China and final campaign (1222–1227)
Initially aiming to return via India, Genghis realised that the heat and humidity of the South Asian climate impeded his army's skills, while the omens were additionally unfavourable. Replaced with "he" as his name appears in the sentence preceding this one.
I don't think that's helpful.
Returning to Mongolia in early 1225, Genghis spent the year in preparation for a campaign against them. Could use his first name at the beginning of a new paragraph.
Ögedei was also known to drink excessively even by Mongol standards—it eventually led to his death in 1241.
Trimmed along those lines
Initially, the bounds of this ambition were limited only to Mongolia,...
Good catch
I have read upto the Legacy and historical assessment section. Sorry for the delay. I will be leaving my final comments sometime this week. Regards.
MSincccc (
talk)
05:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Elsewhere
The Muslim world has associated Genghis Khan with a myriad of ideologies and beliefs.
The West, never directly affected by Genghis, have viewed him in shifting and contrasting ways.
A bit confused with your linking of locations. What is the pattern here? I'm guessing you're always linking unless they're well-known, i.e. London and New York. But then I question linking Oxford & Cambridge
That is the pattern: Oxford shouldn't have been linked, and Cambridge wasn't (
Cambridge, Massachusetts is)
Some kind of identifier for Togan 2016 would be nice, ISBN, OCLC or something of the sort
The reliability of this article's sources are excellent. All Academic from reliable publishers or high quality news articles when necessary.
Some of the sources err on the side of older publishing dates.
Boyle, Kwanten, Kagchid and Hung seem fine—they're all used sparingly (once each) and for a specific reason.
Given that Barthold is an updated edition, edited by a contemporary scholar, that seems suitable. But I do wonder if there are newer sources available, since the source is cited a handful of times.
Pelliot seems to have similar issues as the above. Its an older, albeit important source, but used quite a few times. Some of these are unavoidable, but I do wonder if many of them could be switched with newer sources.
I can try to look to see if I can swap Barthold out, but Pelliot is only used to cite details of language, and as such will be harder to swap out. However, as they are possibly the two most influential Mongol historians ever, still cited by the highest-quality sources today, I think they are fine as stopgaps.
Fair enough, as long is there is a well-reasoned rationale, and its not simply an oversight.
Name and title: The source (Pelliot 1959) just talks about "Chingis", not about "Chingis Khan". In particular, the Chinese in the source is 成吉思 and the Persian is just چنگیز The "Khan" title should probably be treated separately (or a source used that discusses "Genghis Khan", not just "Genghis").
Fair enough, removed.
I think the Mongolian in this section is still too long (it looks too long), but I could be wrong.
Sources: I just tried to find out who the "Zhao Hong" mentioned here is (and to find his name in Chinese characters). The
Cambridge History of the Mongol Empire (
TWL) seems to indicate he is actually Zhao Gong (趙珙) who wrote a book Meng Da beilu (蒙韃備錄); see
zh:蒙韃備錄 or
de:Mengda beilu. Can you cross check this with your other sources?
I had a conversation with
Folly Mox about him at
Talk:Genghis Khan/Archive 11#*Zhao Hong. Most sources (Ratchnevsky 1991, Buell 2003, May&Hope 2023, ) use "Hong", and only Atwood 2004 (in addition to the CHME) uses "Gong", so I'm inclined to stick with the former?
I would suggest to at least make a footnote that says there is a different name, and perhaps to mention the name of his book (after all, our source nowadays isn't a Song-era diplomat, but his book). I can't tell which sources are better for Gong vs. Hong, but I agree "Zhao Hong" is reasonably common also in relatively new scholarly sources. The (not so new)
Cambridge History of China mentions him twice
[20][21] as "Chao Hung" (Wade-Giles transcription for "Zhao Hong"). The second link actually has some comments on sources on pp. 699–700; I found it interesting that they claim that Travels to the West of Qiu Chang Chun (Arthur Waley's translation
here) "contains the only eyewitness description of the empire's founder," meaning Genghis Khan. —
Kusma (
talk)
21:36, 2 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Added a footnote.
That works. I would personally add an {{
ill}} pointing to
de:Mengda beilu, but I am not expecting you to.
It might be good to say when the Persian and Christian sources were written.
Done but vaguely.
A rough indication of the century was all I was looking for; perhaps this could also be added for Marco Polo and others?
Why not link
Qojin [
zh and
Tümelün [
fr? (various other Wikipedias also available)
I'm not sure that those two are notable, so I've unlinked them.
Various other red links could also perhaps use {{
ill}} if articles exist somewhere (I have not checked in detail)
I am not good with checking either.
Defeating rivals: "humiliated the bodies of leaders who had opposed him" what does humiliating the bodies (as opposed to the leaders) mean?
They were dead, and he did the 12th-century equivalent of
teabagging. I've changed "bodies" to "corpses" to make their death more explicit.
Early reign: "military [[decimal|decimal system]]" what do you mean by this? It should at least be unlinked and maybe glossed.
Done.
Consolidation of power: "Most Xia troops were stationed along the southern and western borders of the kingdom to guard against attacks from the Song and Jin dynasties respectively" that doesn't make sense given the map: the Jin were to the East?
That is indeed correct.
Defeating rebellions and Qara Khitai: "the subdued Hoi-yin Irgen tribes in Siberia" do we know a little more precision where this is?
Siberia is larger than Canada...
Glossed above as "a collection of tribes on the edge of the
Siberian taiga"; the "in Siberia" was added because a previous reviewer felt the reminder would be helpful.
Invasion of the Khwarazmian Empire: no idea why, but in my settings (300px thumbnails) there is no writing on
File:Genghis Khan empire-switch.svg. SVG bug??
Probably, don't know how to fix that.
I'll try to ask for technical advice, but there is nothing for you to do here.
Gloss Peter Golden
Done.
"Ogedei" should be "Ögedei", here and in at least one other place.
Done.
I would recommend to recruit a military history expert to read the campaign sections, if you haven't already.
Gog and UC had lots to say at PR.
Succession: "reducing the wealthy city" not sure this is the best possible expression
Changed to "besieging".
Death and aftermath: "may have buried the khan in the
Ordos to avoid his body decomposing in the summer heat" why would the Ordos Plateau help? Gloss this? Or is it the
Ordos Desert?
Clarified.
"Yelu Chucai" should be
Yelü Chucai ("lu" and "lü" represent different sounds in Chinese).
Fixed.
Legacy: it would be nice to hear a little bit more about perception outside of Mongolia. Is the "modern Muslim world" completely united in its assessment? (One could imagine Iranians to have different opinions from Uyghurs). Did the view of Genghis Khan among historical Europeans depend on whether the Mongols came to their lands in the 1200s? (Ukrainians might think about him different from French). Did Western European knowledge of Genghis Khan come only via Marco Polo or did medieval historians learn anything from Mongol-occupied Eastern Europe?
Will do.
Length: the article is long. It probably has good reasons to be long. If cutting is desired, I would suggest to leave the interesting "Legacy" section alone and to summarise / subarticle-ise more of the comparatively boring sections about the military campaigns. (Other people probably disagree).
Kusma, I have expanded the "Elsewhere" section with more details on Genghis's historical and modern assessment in the Muslim world. In general, there is not the level of detail you were hoping for with regard to Europe.
~~ AirshipJungleman29 (
talk)
14:50, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Not finding more is OK if you have searched. I like the Japanese legend about Yoshitsune, it seems very odd (
this source seems to trace the history a bit further back). I do have a further comment: At the start of the paragraph "Genghis was also a source of political legitimacy" I think slightly more context would help: you are talking about legitimacy of 14th-15th century rulers in Muslim territories that had been conquered by Mongols in the 13th century (and were lacking other legitimacy like descent from Muhammad or its family). Without such context it is a bit surprising that there is a paragraph on Mongol legitimacy between two Arab/Muslim paragraphs. —
Kusma (
talk)
22:06, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Over the next decade and a half, Temüjin and Börte would have --> "Over the next decade and a half, Temüjin and Börte had" per
WP:WOULDCHUCK
This same issue pops up several times:
As he would later go on to overthrow that state --> "As he later overthrew that state"
later known as the Baljuna Covenant, to his faithful followers, which would later grant them exclusivity and prestige -- also has a repetitive use of "later"
the white tuq pictured here represent peace, while a black tuq would represent war - Why would "would" only be used for black tuq?
whom they would serve and who in return would evaluate
a grant which the Taoists would later use to try to gain superiority over Buddhism
which would become the Chagatai Khanate
and who would succeed his father as ruler of the empire
You get the point. Check all other uses of "would" to determine if they're actually necessary. Some (e.g. for the subjunctive) certainly are of course.
Removed all which are (to my eye) unnecessary.
"that the chronology of the work" --> that the work's chronology" for concision
"the historian Paul Ratchnevsky notes that Temüjin himself may not have known the truth" -- Ratchnevsky is deceased, so I might change that to "noted"
Done both, the second at all relevant points.
Should "birth-name" be hyphenated? It isn't per the Oxford, Cambridge, and Collins dictionaries.
Separated.
"a motif in Asian folklore which indicated the child would be a warrior" --> "a motif in Asian folklore indicating the child would be a warrior"
Done
"prestigious Onggirat tribe" -- How was the tribe itself 'prestigious'? Were they wealthy? Powerful? Is a better word/explanation needed here?
All of the above? I think "prestigious" is a good word for the context.
"they exchanged knucklebones" - Their own? Of some kind of animal? Is this an idiom for a fistfight?Further elaboration is needed.
No, "knucklebones" refers to a variety of historical games. See
knucklebones, or
shagai for the Mongolian variant.
"at the age of eleven" --> "at age eleven" would suffice.
Done.
"before allowing him to escape" - was he holding him against his will? Did he simply aid his escape?
Changed "allowing" to "helping" for clarity.
Maybe reword "an adolescent named Bo'orchu who aided him in retrieving stolen horses" as "Bo'orchu, an adolescent who aided him in retrieving stolen horses" but feel free to disregard.
"had been lost" --> to the less literary and more concise "had died"
Done both.
"Ratchnevsky has questioned if Temüjin actually became Jamukha's nökor" - I know you previously defined nokor as "personal companion", but the way this is worded suggests there is some weight to this? Likely some cultural significance? Could you explain/clarify?
Someone above mentioned this as well; I've put it in plain English.
"cryptic remark" - Could you explain this remark, maybe in a footnote?
"Temüjin was able to subdue" --> "Temüjin subdued"
Done both.
"being termed" -- I don't think "being" is needed.
Removed.
Maybe change "to catch the Kereit unawares" --> "to ambush the Kereit"
Have you heard of the literary daughter of the foremost Nigerian writer Chinua Achebe. Do you know about the Nigerian Civil War? Or the historical background a a woman who studied bilingually and with writing explore the themes of many origin. Here is an article of a writer, speaker, fashion influencer, and critic. Adichie is a Nigerian who has written many award winning book. I don't need to call them because you already may have known them. This is the second nomination after I had a peer review mentored by SusunW and had great comments from Draken Bowser, Gog, and Reading Beans. I will appreciate Proscribe also and further accept your wonderful review in the FAR. Safari ScribeEdits!Talk!06:39, 6 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Comments on sourcing from SusunW
I have never before mentored someone through the FA process, but when the article was nominated the first time, I recommended that it be withdrawn and sent to peer review. SafariScribe and I worked on it for a month, restructuring and expanding the article to include more aspects of her life, including her public speaking and fashion perspectives. During the peer review I looked at every single source and formatted the references for consistency and compliance with MOS guidelines. My goal was two-fold, to confirm that all the material was verified and that it was free of copyvios. My review of each website and literary magazine included evaluation of whether it had an editorial policy and/or editorial board. Because the subject is African, and because several of the critiques mentioned that African sources are often not consulted, I also wanted to ensure that we used a balanced approach covering the global nature of the subject. As she is also living and an iconic figure it should be noted that no formal complete biography of her has been written, but brief biographies that focus mainly on her writing have been included in works such as Contemporary Literary Criticism and the OUP's Dictionary of African Biography. These were supplemented with other sources for comprehensiveness.
The themes, style and critical reception sections rely most heavily on academic sourcing, and particular attention was given to African scholars. It should be noted that
Ememyonu's A Companion to Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie and Grace Musila's review of that work, confirm that no comprehensive academic attention has been given to Adichie's public speaking. Where possible, we have tried to use academic works to evaluate these, but many of them had to rely on the principal of "best sources available". The same holds true for analysis of her views and controversy, as well as fashion. As her works are discussed in depth in stand-alone articles, we have given only brief discussion of their overall content in the biography relying instead on how her style and themes are carried out in her works. If the coordinators feel that my analysis of the sourcing is "involved", I completely understand and leave it up to their determination as to whether my analysis of them equates to passing the source review and "spot checks". In my opinion, it passes both. Should discussion be warranted, please ping me.
SusunW (
talk)
15:20, 6 June 2024 (UTC)reply
SafariScribe, Gog said yes, in his opinion and left it to the coordinators. I know it is hard to be patient, but featured articles move slowly. Especially if they are lengthy. I understand your frustration and your desire for the article to be reviewed, but it takes time. I see AirshipJungleman29 has expressed some of the same concerns I did, that perhaps more eyes were needed at peer review or from the Guild of Copyeditors. These are our opinions, others may disagree. Since it is your first nomination, there may be editors who are willing to help you get it over the line. Whether it passes this nomination or not, you have greatly improved the article and that is an achievement. Please don't get discouraged. Try to remain optimistic and celebrate the things you are learning from the process.
SusunW (
talk)
14:35, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I could perhaps have been clearer. I have, as a FAC coordinator, accepted this as a source, spot check and plagiarism pass. As it is a little non-standard I courtesy pinged my fellow coordinators in case they wished to comment. It seems they don't, so I think the nominator need not worry further about it.
Gog the Mild (
talk)
15:14, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Image review
Would suggest using a mapframe instead of File:Nigeria-karte-politisch-enugu.png, but if it is kept it needs a source for the data presented
The maker released rights under Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license. It is a mural on the Municipal Sport Center in Concepción barrio of Madrid. The neighborhood voted on the subject matter, who should be included, and defeated a move to replace the mural; definitely a public display. It was commissioned from the art collective Unlogic Crew by the Department of Culture and Sports, and painted by Unlogic's members and people from the neighborhood.
[22] Spain's freedom of panorama law allows "Works permanently located in parks or on streets, squares or other public thoroughfares". My interpretation is that it's okay to use because it is on a wall at a public sports park, has been there since painted in 2018, and if you look at the lede image on the
Concepción Feminist Mural article, it's displayed on a public thoroughfare.
SusunW (
talk)
13:57, 7 June 2024 (UTC)reply
SafariScribe, looking at this again, I think I understand what Nikkimaria is asking. The photograph was released, it meets panorama requirements, but do the painters have rights? According to
p. 9 section 26 and 28.1 they do, for "for seventy years after the protected work is lawfully made available to the public". There are two ways to allow it's use, obtain permission from Unlogic and unknown community members, so that is completely impracticable. Or reload the image as "fair use" with the rationale that no freely licensed version is available because some of the collective authors are unknown. Is that what you meant, Nikkimaria?
SusunW (
talk)
15:50, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
the situation is a mess, but did not delete the
12300 FoP Spain images. If any of them are good, this one should be. If they are all deleted, this one presumably will be at the same time. So I'd keep it until then. --
GRuban (
talk)
21:21, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Airship
As always, these are suggestions, not demands; feel free to refuse with adequate justification.
Lead and infobox
This is a long article—9200 words according to the prosesize tool. Per
MOS:LEADLENGTH, I would recommend a four-paragraph lead.
Working on that
For exmple, I note that the "Themes and style" subsection, which by itself is longer than the "Views and controversy" and "Legacy" sections combined, are summarised in just two lead sentences.
Working too
MOS:FIRST: "Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie is a Nigerian writer, novelist, poet, essayist, and playwright of postcolonial feminist literature and public speaker. Are the four subdivisions of "writer" necessary? See
MOS:FIRSTBIO: "try to not overload the first sentence by describing everything notable about the subject". I'm not even entirely sure that you can be an playwright of postcolonial feminist literature.
Rewritten.
Also, why are we saying "a writer ... of ... literature"? Seems tautological.
Rewritten.
It's odd that the only university mentioned in the lead is the one she didn't complete her studies at, unless the lead is attempting to refer to the secondary school, in which case it's misleading. In any case, the location is unnecessary.
I have removed the location, and linked all the universities she attended.
Infobox:
Is "fashionista" an occupation?
Fixed.
I don't think we need either em dashes or bullet points in the notable works/awards lists, and them being different just looks odd.
Fixed.
I'm not convinced of the worth of the "period" parameter.
Removed entirely.
Why does her spouse need a citation?
Fixed: I removed it since it's already cited in the body.
"Ngozi Adichie, whose English name was Amanda" what does this mean? My understanding of "English names" (not the link provided) is that they are common names taken by people with birth names unfriendly to English pronunciation. But looking at the infobox, it looks like "Amanda" was her birth name.
Adichie is an Igbo and according to the source, Igbo people name their child in Igbo after birth, and the English name after baptism. Adichie is referred to as "Ngozi" but she would later incorporate "chi-mamanda", which was derived from her English name Amanda. It is important we note the English name for some readers especially in Nigeria who didn't know Amanda is an English name.
Also, there are definitely too many commas in the first sentence.
Removed unnecessary commas except the
MOS:GEOCOMMA.
"which she revealed in an interview with the Nigerian television personality Ebuka Obi-Uchendu" is this relevant?
It is important since it was the first place she said about her getting her known name, "Chimamanda". What of being a note?
The second paragraph describes her father moving to California twice. It would be better organised purely chronologically.
Done. Rephrased!
I find it odd that we use half a paragraph to describe how James fulfilled the requisite funerary rites for his father, which seems rather tangential at best, but consign his and his wife's dates of death to a note.
Done.
"He returned to Nigeria and began working as a professor at the University of Nigeria, Nsukka, in 1966...Shortly after the family returned to Nigeria, the Biafran War broke out and James started working for the Biafran government" as before, the chronology is confusing. It would be far more helpful to state precisely when the Biafran War broke out, and when James started working for the Biafran government.
Done.
Apparently the anti-Igbo pogrom took place before the outbreak of the Biafran War, so I don't know why it's described as if it took place afterwards.
Removed.
"at the Biafran Manpower Directorate" seeing as I don't know what this is and can't figure out from its name alone, is it needed in the article?
Yes it's important since there exist other Biafran directorates where anyone can work.
"After Biafra ceased to exist in 1970, James returned to the University of Nigeria in Nsukka while Grace worked for the government at Enugu until 1973 when she became an administration officer at the university, later becoming the university's first female registrar. The family stayed at the campus of the University of Nigeria, Nsukka..." This is simultaneously repetitive (4x university, 2x Nsukka) and unclear (it is not immediately apparent whether Grace became an administration officer in a university in Enugu or Nsukka.
Rephrased.
" the family included Ijeoma Rosemary, Uchenna "Uche", Chukwunweike "Chuks", Okechukwu "Okey", Ngozi, and Kenechukwu "Kene"" ... presumably these are brothers/sisters? a list of names with no context is unhelpful.
Since this is a biography, can it be good having a "note".
Safari Scribe, I think all that is being asked is that you say instead of "the family included" that "her siblings included". Their names IMO are important, as they are mentioned elsewhere in the article.
SusunW (
talk)
14:47, 21 June 2024 (UTC)reply
"As a child, Adichie read only English-language stories, especially by Enid Blyton." this is the only mention of Blyton in the article, which makes the singling out of her as an "inspiration" in the lead somewhat dubious.
working.
"The war occurred before she was born," we know this
"She completed her secondary education at the University of Nigeria Campus Secondary School, Nsukka with top distinction in the West African Examinations Council (WAEC), and academic prizes. This sentence is hard to parse. Why the repetition of "Nsukka" again? Unless "with top distinction in the West African Examinations Council" is a phrase, it's grammatically incorrect.
Done.
" in the university" I think we can assume that a student-run magazine is in the university.
Most definitely.
The "Education abroad and early literary efforts" subsection paragraph is fairly long; continue splitting.
Working.
Previously the war was referred to as the Biafran War; now it is the Nigerian Civil War? It should be consistent.
Done.
"the theme of war following the Nigerian Civil War" the theme of war following a war? are you sure that's what's meant?
Rephrased.
I'm not sure why the "education abroad and early literary efforts" subsection includes, variously, her marriage, children, place of residence, citizenship status, and selected prizes received.
~~ AirshipJungleman29 (
talk)
14:10, 20 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Sorry
SafariScribe, I don't think I can support this nomination. The general impression I have is of an article that needs significant polish. I see that you have added more to the lead after my suggestions, but your additions are nowhere near FAC standards, containing basic grammar, spelling and syntax mistakes that would put the article's GA status into question. I won't formally oppose, but I would advise you to withdraw this nomination, and possibly work on a smaller, less-involved article for your first FA: a 9,300-word behemoth such as this is a tough beast to wrangle into shape.
~~ AirshipJungleman29 (
talk)
13:19, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
All these doesn't feel alright for me. Why then can't you do the review here before such a comment. Welp, I know it's a working volunteerism, but it's okay at the same time Everybody must do as it pleases them especially with a partial review. Thanks though! Safari ScribeEdits!Talk!13:27, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
AirshipJungleman29, it can be. You really need to do this. The other parts of the article is not yet reviewed. The lead can be trimmed down per your review. Everybody isn't perfect but you can help out with whichever way you can. Is not like I respond swiftly. No! Please continue your review and ignore my overreaction. Safari ScribeEdits!Talk!13:57, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Just a heads up: this is, in my opinion, not a neutrally phrased message. Indicating that you would appreciate one’s support does not exemplify the neutrality expected of a request for review, as it implies that each set of comments should end in support. As stated before, this is just my opinion, though I will advise you to be cautious with your wording next time around.
That being said, I am currently quite busy with my own projects and life, to say the least, and do not believe I have the time to write a thorough review. For that I apologize. Best of luck with the FAC.
joeyquism (
talk)
09:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I am glad that you amended your message before I came across it wearing my FAC coordinator hat. It was definitely a NPOV issue. Please ensure that any future pings relating to FAC are neutrally phrased
Reading the ping as is, I am unsure why I was contacted. There is a long list of pings at the bottom of a review by AJ; is there some aspect of their comments you would like our input on? If so, could you specify?
Gog the Mild (
talk)
10:23, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
That's not a problem. Should I remove the ping under the review. I was pinging because I was afraid of getting archived since there is no support, and less comments so far. Safari ScribeEdits!Talk!11:31, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
It's done now, so I would suggest leaving it. I can see now how deleting the non-NPOV bit left just bare pings. As it was, when I came to it I was baffled what it was you wanted from me. Maybe add straight after the pings something like "Apologies for the ping, but I was hoping that you might have the time and inclination to comment on this nomination. If so, any and all comments and suggestions will be much appreciated and swiftly responded to. Thanks."
Gog the Mild (
talk)
16:30, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I could imagine using {{infobox person}} which offers the same parameters but less prominent for website.
Headers
I suggest to have Life as level two, and further headers level three, because career is still part of life.
Life and education
I think there's no need to repeat state and country. The details are in the infobox. If repeated: Nigeria is a well-known country which doesn't need a link.
Perhaps introduce both parents before they get married.
"everything including Adichie's maternal and paternal grandfathers" - perhaps it's my English but it sounds to me as if the grandparents were "things".
Please check chronology: first her parents die, and next sentence, her father takes a position.
I wonder if the names of the two sisters could be introduced earlier with their birth. Do we have years of birth?
US vs. U.S.?
I haven't find any, but remind me whenever you see such. I prefer US.
It shouldn't be what you prefer, but on the article being in American English or UK English. It looks UK - sorry I was too tired to check - so US (found twice) is fine. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk)
07:01, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Thank you for all the changes! You might write a bit more of an edit summary as to what was changed, but I went by the edit history. Another general advice: when you indent on a talk page (like this one), repeat everything in the edit you reply to, without a blank line, and only add your one indenting character. (There's an essay by
RexxS about it on my user page if you want to know why.) - I'll continue later today. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk)
07:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"It was written during a period", - how about: "She wrote it ..."?
Done.
similarly: " Eventually, she was emailed by Djana Pearson Morris" - How about " Eventually Djana Pearson Morris, ... sent her an email"? I'm not even sure that "to email" is a proper verb, but again, English isn't my first language.
Tha was pretty good. I used "sent her a mail" (though there mayn't be any comparable difference).
"seeking the manuscript with lines saying, "I like this and I'm willing to take a risk on you." - not sure about the construction. Why lines when only one follows? How about dropping the lines altogether?
Done.
"Adichie, who was desperate to be published", - perhaps: "Adichie, who was desperate to have her book published"?
Done
In the remainder of the paragraph, the verb "sent" is used to often, - please find more variety.
I used sponsored for the tour, and left others. I have sought for the right words/better words but there wasn't. Maybe we leave it like that or I will dig later.
for her second book: perhaps first a summary of content, then the publishing?
But there isn't much about the publishing unlike Purple Hibiscus. Do you insist?
I just meant the order of things, tell the reader first what the book is about? --GA
"also ... also"
Can't relate the difference.
Can you drop one of them, it's too mush "also". --GA
"It exploded the myth" - not sure what is meant.
I removed it, and used "central message", since it seems same message.
"Renowned African Writers/African and African Diaspora Artists Visit Series" - that long phrase or name is unconnected and should be explained. When beginning the sentence it's not clear that this still plays at that university.
Americanah (which is on the title) vs. Americana --GA
"to expand her ideas on how to raise a feminist daughter into a book" - I first understood that she raised a daughter into a book ;)
Yep, I changed it
"The book tells the story of the connections" - here you use present tense for book content, and I like it. Up to there, you used past tense, - and perhaps make it consistent?
I fixed a bit of that, but I am not sure of the one you are saying. Can I have it mark in green?
later perhaps --GA
Here: for her first book, you said "The book explored post-colonial Nigeria" (past tense), and for her second "The novel expanded on the Biafran conflict" (past tense), how about present tense for book content consistently. (I don't use green, it's hard to read for some.) --
Gerda Arendt (
talk)
09:56, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"class, race, gender, and sexuality impact equal opportunities and human right" - not sure where the series of terms ends, and perhaps consequence begins.
There is a separation comma (,) to do that, though I helped the sentence.
"in a real, active, practical, get your hands dirty way" - I think "get your hands dirty" needs some indication of it being a phrase, perhaps "in a real, active, practical, 'get your hands dirty' way"?
Done
spoken ... speak
Maybe this was an error. When we use spoken, it will deviate from the grammar and tense.
sorry, I didn't mean tense but repetition --GA
"Along with Laszlo Jakab Orsos, Adichie co-curated the 2015 Pen World Voices Festival in New York City." - as Orsos has no article and is possibly not famous enough to make a connection, I suggest to put him at the end of the sentence.
Done.
"How people in the United States seem to fear being offensive or disrupting "the careful layers of comfort" they have shielded themselves with, whereas in Nigeria, people expect pain." - I read that sentence a few times and am still not sure I got it. Perhaps
SusunW could help phrasing it.
I removed entirely since the second thing she said in the place is noteworthy, and can stand for the removed one. If there is still the need, let me know too.
I got to the header Themes and style. Generally: perhaps some of the occasions where she spoke have articles in other languages, - worth checking. The paragraph is long, perhaps structure somewhat by year, or by topic? --
Gerda Arendt (
talk)
12:40, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"is shown not only in her diasporic works, but also Adichie's feminist tract", - why first "her", then name?
Sighted well, I have removed it and rephrased.
"Her women characters repeatedly assertively resist being defined ..." - I stumble over "repeatedly assertively" but may be the only one.
Removed "assertively".
"as a miniature representation of violence for the nation", - I don't get the analogy, neither violence nor nation was mentioned before.
I used setting instead, since it should be "violence for the nation (the setting used)."
"although her works do not explore homosexuality" - I don't understand the "although" there.
It'd explain the next sentence, but since it's possible to affect readers, I have rephrased the sentence.
themes beginning with "sexual abuse" are linked, but I find them just as common words as "belonging, adaptation ..." that have no link. (to be continued) --
Gerda Arendt (
talk)
09:52, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I removed the links but left rage and domestic abuse since they may be difficult to find (other words/things named rage, and applicable to domestic abuse when there is also the sexual one).Safari ScribeEdits!Talk!16:44, 11 July 2024 (UTC)reply
In the quote box, I wouldn't link. All are common words, no. Links from quote are generally discouraged.
In the description of the box, we read "her style of creativity" which - under header "Style" I misread as writing style. How about "creative process"?
I have unlinked them, as well as used "creative process", as it is the best suit.
"For example, in Purple Hibiscus, the arrival of a king to challenge colonial and religious leaders symbolises Palm Sunday." - Sorry I don't get the connection of this to the previous sentence which mentions "trigger sensory experiences".
Sensory experiences can also involve what we see. In that case, seeing that practice refers to the same thing seen in the Christian Palm Sunday.
I'm still not with you, sorry. "see" is ambiguous, when talking about senses, I think of seeing a flower, not seeing Palm Sunday. Perhaps the two things would be better disconnected, - something like analogies to biblical narration?
Sorry, in "By utilising lived realities, intimate details, and drawing upon the senses" I fail to understand what "lived reality" means (and again, perhaps all others will know).
Removed; I used pure realities, then removed "and drawing up the senses".
"cultural failures" is another phrase I would not know how to understand
I changed it to failed cultures, and rephrased the sentence.
"By focusing on the group as a collective unit, she promotes not only empowerment, but a focus on each team member's well-being." - it's unclear if "she" refers to the character of the previous sentence or Adichie.
I have replaced "she", as it was referring to Adichie
One of the saddest articles I've written here, as it follows the path to extinction of this species almost by the minute, like a train wreck in slow motion. I've been able to track down all sources that say anything substantial about the species, and luckily it lived so recently that we have footage and photos of it, which are also old enough to be in the public domain.
FunkMonk (
talk)
12:06, 5 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Pass-by comment
Not an image review per se but I'm concerned with
File:Laysan honeycreeper in 1923.jpg. You use the tag "This work was never published prior to January 1, 2003" yet the source is a book from 1956. Presumably that would be publication prior to 2003? Also you say "The work of art itself is in the public domain in its source country..." yet according to our article
Donald Ryder Dickey he was an American, so was the image first published in America? Is there an earlier publication for the image other than the 1956 book? If not, I'd check the
Stanford copyright renewal database to see if the copyright on the book was renewed. If not, the tag needs updating.
Therapyisgood (
talk)
13:25, 5 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I've had a few cases like this, and this is the answer I got when I asked about it on Commons, which led me to use that tag:
[23] That said, the image may also have been published early enough to be PD, the 1956 source is just the earliest I've been able to find. The footage it's from was also used in some contemporary newsreel
[24], but I haven't been able to find out much about it.
FunkMonk (
talk)
13:36, 5 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Comments from Z1720
Non-expert prose review:
Made some changes to the article. Feel free to revert if they are not helpful.
No major concerns.
"Taxonomy" and "Evolution" sections are longer than I would like: I recommend adding additional level 3 headings if possible.
Thanks for the edits, I'm not sure how these sections could be split in a way that would make sense, and they're not really longer than most other such sections I've worked on, so I'll leave them for now.
FunkMonk (
talk)
16:10, 5 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Comments from UC
A sad story indeed: beautifully written, though. Comments below:
The MoS tolerates species', but it's generally advised to try to avoid forms like this (that is, singular possessives with the trailing apostrophe) by using "of the species" where possible.
The bird was first noticed in 1828: hm: do we know for sure that none of the native people of Hawaii noticed it, ever? Suggest "first noticed by Europeans", "first described in a scientific publication", "the first recorded sighting was..." or similar. I notice lower that we have Native Hawaiians never appear to have visited Laysan Island, but I suspect we're still dealing in absence of evidence rather than evidence of absence.
The sources all indicate that Hawaiian natives didn't visit the island, which is also why the island itself has no native name. While I see where you're coming from, in this case I think it goes a bit too far beyond the sources to cast (indirect) doubt on this.
FunkMonk (
talk)
20:52, 5 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Personally, I'd be much happier with "the first recorded sighting" or similar (on a different note, it's far from impossible that European sailors visited the island or sailed past without recording it), which I don't think casts doubt. You may be right on going beyond the sources: what do they say here, exactly? UndercoverClassicistT·
C21:36, 5 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Went with "recorded", as this leaves wiggle room for any possible other sighting. Sources say "first mentioned/noted".
FunkMonk (
talk)
22:18, 7 June 2024 (UTC)reply
This was accepted by most subsequent authors throughout the 20th century, and it: the antecedent of it is this, which is the change of name: we therefore need a new noun phrase here instead of it.
its wing measured 64–69 mm (2.5–2.7 in): is it worth giving a dimension here? "From socket to tip", or whatever the usual form is?
Unfortunately, none of the sources specify. I'm not aware of any standard apart from simply "wing-span", which is probably not what's referred to here, but the length of each individual wing.
FunkMonk (
talk)
03:28, 9 June 2024 (UTC)reply
scarlet vermilion: is there any sort of vermilion that isn't scarlet?
This is how several of the more recent sources put it. They look similar to me, but I can't really judge, as I have a sort of colour blindness.
FunkMonk (
talk)
03:48, 8 June 2024 (UTC)reply
(probably taken from his footage) in the image caption isn't particularly clear until you get right the way to the bottom. You could make it "video footage", perhaps?
Removed that part from the caption, as I've since explained it in the article body, and the caption is long enough already.
FunkMonk (
talk)
20:52, 5 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The ʻapapane differs from the Laysan honeycreeper in being blood-red overall, with black wings and tail, whiter under-tail covert feathers, and a longer bill: is all this relevant in the lead of an article on the honeycreeper? We've already described its coloration, so you could just say that it had a shorter bill than the ʻapapane?
Hmmm, I think it's important to briefly describe the ʻapapane for comparison, and this is also what several of the sources do. It's sort of a convention in bird articles to compare with similar birds.
FunkMonk (
talk)
03:28, 9 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Ah, didn't realise you were talking strictly about the lead, shortened it to "The ʻapapane differs from the Laysan honeycreeper in features such as being blood-red overall and having a longer bill" since I think some distinction is warranted even there (the middle paragraph of the lead isn't much longer than the other two anyway).
FunkMonk (
talk)
17:44, 9 June 2024 (UTC)reply
This bird was very active: I'd almost always restate the noun at the start of a new paragraph. Can we do without the word very?
John Keating is ringing in my ear...
Added the bird's name to the earlier part of the sentence, but I'm not sure what "active" would mean in itself that isn't too vague for the purpose?
FunkMonk (
talk)
03:48, 8 June 2024 (UTC)reply
In 1903, domestic rabbits were introduced to the island, which proceeded to destroy the vegetation: reads slightly oddly: its vegetation would sound more natural to me.
restricted Himatione to the red species, the ʻapapane and the Laysan honeycreeper: potentially ambiguous with the comma: suggest a colon instead (it was only two species, wasn't it?)
This classification was followed by most other taxonomists and the trinomial name was used throughout the 20th century.: five citations seems like a lot here. Do they all support all three sentences? If so, do we need them all to do so? If so, can we bundle at least some of them?
fraithii a lapsus calami: what does a lapsus calami mean, and why doesn't the a get italicised?
It's explained in the following parenthesis (misspelling), or do you mean the etymology of the Latin term? The "a" is not part of the term, it's just the article of the word.
FunkMonk (
talk)
17:44, 9 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Oh, I understand now. Suggest the American ornithologist Dean Amadon considered the spelling fraithii [to be] a lapsus calami ('slip of the pen', or misspelling). 'To be' very much a matter of taste: as a is also a Latin word (albeit one which makes the phrase difficult to understand), it just makes clearer what's in English and what's not. UndercoverClassicistT·
C18:30, 9 June 2024 (UTC)reply
under the common English name Laysan honeycreeper rather than Laysan ʻapapane:
MOS:WORDSASWORDS applies here (we're talking about the name, not the bird with that name), so we should italicise or use quote marks (I'd advise the former, as quote marks will be tricky with ʻapapane). Similarly elsewhere, particularly with They considered the name Laysan ʻapapane a modern retrofitting
Went with quotation marks because that's what I've done in other parts, because the word ʻapapane is preceded by Laysan, so the formatting doesn't clash.
FunkMonk (
talk)
17:44, 9 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Some museums have multiple specimens, such as 24 in the Bernice Pauahi Bishop Museum in Honolulu: I'm not sure this is quite grammatical: better as "some museums have multiple specimens: the Bernice Pauahi Bishop Museum in Honolulu has 24...}} etc.
I wanted to make clear that these are just examples, a colon alone might indicate it's only the mentioned museums. Tried with "Some museums have multiple specimens, including:"
FunkMonk (
talk)
17:44, 9 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The sex ratio between adult specimens in museum collections is 1.7:1: I'm curious how do we get this ratio out of 105, which doesn't divide by 2.7: unless we've got some interestingly sexed hummingbirds (not a phrase I ever thought I'd write), we've used at least two different counts of the specimens in this paragraph. OK, 66:39 is 1.692:1, which is close enough to round up, but might still be worth making sure that the source is using the same corpus. At any rate, probably clearer as "the
ratio of males to females", to save readers having to check the link to remember which way round the ratio is typically given.
Schauinsland considered the Laysan honeycreeper an example of how a new species may arise through isolation.: did he say what he thought it had arisen from?
He doesn't say it outright, but talks about its relatedness to the ʻapapane, so that would be implied, but I don't think we can really do that. I made the connection indirectly by adding "and noted its resemblance to the ʻapapane."
FunkMonk (
talk)
22:18, 7 June 2024 (UTC)reply
He pointed out that the length of their wings was rather short, which perhaps indicated a beginning tendency in such a direction. The wing of the finch was shorter, perhaps because it had reached Laysan earlier than the honeycreeper.: is there something about
insular dwarfism to be said here?
It's only the wings, so if anything, it would be flightlessness, which often develops in island birds, but the source doesn't specify further.
FunkMonk (
talk)
22:18, 7 June 2024 (UTC)reply
it could be seen as: better as it could have been, I think: it either was one or it wasn't, surely?
They speculated that if this bird could survive on Laysan, there could also be a niche for a relative on the island of Nihoa.: can we give some indication of why this might be the case?
They don't specify, but Rauzon below says: "wondered why there were no descendants on Nihoa, which is closer and has more vegetation", which is probably what they had in mind.
FunkMonk (
talk)
03:28, 9 June 2024 (UTC)reply
They also pointed out that the idea that Hawaiian honeycreepers were an upland group is an artefact of them: this sentence gets a bit long and tricky: it might be clearer phrased more directly as something like "they also argued that Hawaiian honeycreepers are not truly an upland group, but that the perception of them as such comes from..."
due to its distinct physical features, the Laysan honeycreeper was unquestionably distinct from the ʻapapane following the phylogenetic species concept: I'm not sure I fully understand this: generally speaking, we assume that two animals that don't look alike aren't the same species, but how do we tell from this that the two birds are any more different than (say) dachshunds and dalmatians?
See, that's the fun part of taxonomy, it's largely arbitrary. What really matters is that there's a scientific consensus, the criteria are often blurry and inconsistent across cases. But that said, there's a big difference between naturally developed variations within groups of animals and products of man-made breeding. What this particular species really needs is DNA analysis, but this work hasn't been done yet (though I will of course add it if it happens).
FunkMonk (
talk)
17:44, 9 June 2024 (UTC)reply
formerly spelled Drepanidae or Drepaniidae: another
MOS:WORDSASWORDS
Olson and Ziegler also suggested in 1995 that the difference in plumage of the Laysan honeycreeper: is this the difference between the honeycreeper and the ʻapapane?
Tried with the following, though it seems a bit inelegant: " Olson and Ziegler also suggested in 1995 that the Laysan honeycreeper's difference in plumage from the ʻapapane was".
FunkMonk (
talk)
03:28, 9 June 2024 (UTC)reply
It's not bad, though it does create a problem with the next clause (what's the antecedent of it?) How about something like Olson and Ziegler also suggested in 1995 that the intense sunlight of Lysan had caused the honeycreeper's plumage to fade, accounting for the difference from the ʻapapane's bright colour.?
Munro added that it also frequented grass tops and other plants on the fringes of the lagoon. Their bright, scarlet plumage made them conspicuous as they fluttered among the soft green Chenopodium bushes. It was the only nectar-feeding finch of the northwestern Hawaiian Islands.: advise consistency on whether we're going for singular or plural when talking about the bird(s) in general.
Tried to distinguish between the species singular and birds plural, but I think it's difficult to make it entirely consistent while also reading well.
FunkMonk (
talk)
03:28, 9 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Few naturalists personally encountered the bird: can we do without "personally" here?
when Palmer saw full-grown juveniles: can a juvenile be full-grown: don't we call those adults?
This could mean that they were of adult size but with juvenile plumage, but the source uses the more informal "young ones", which is even more ambiguous, so I've replaced it with "young birds".
FunkMonk (
talk)
03:48, 8 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Dickey's 1923 photos of the last ironwood to survive introduced rabbits: this is a perhaps unintentionally ambiguous clause: can we rework it a bit?
noted the birds were still fearless towards humans after this wholesale slaughter: I think wholesale slaughter is a bit flowery for Wikipedia, especially as it wasn't wholesale (some survived to remain fearless)
These are the words of those who reported it (they actually say it no less than three times), I've added quotation marks and in-text attribution: "after this "wholesale slaughter", as Dill and Bryan described it". I agree it shouldn't have been said like that in Wikipedia's voice.
FunkMonk (
talk)
22:18, 7 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I like that: it's good to get both a) what happened and b) the sense of horror that observers felt about it. We could even promote it a bit: something like Dill and Bryan described what they saw as "wholesale slaughter": they found thousands of bird skeletons left over by feather hunters, as well as several Laysan honeycreeper skins, but noted the birds were still fearless towards humans.. Very much a matter of taste, but I think that's a good enough detail to let it colour the description more strongly. UndercoverClassicistT·
C07:19, 8 June 2024 (UTC)reply
They were less common than other birds, but were constantly around their building: advise switching their for "the naturalists'" or similar: the switching antecedent is a little awkward (sounds as if the birds had taken out a lease on it).
the American First Lieutenant William H. Munter: a bit odd to give a rank like this: more usual as "naval officer", "army officer", or so on. At any rate, as we're saying that he was a first lieutenant rather than giving it as part of his name (as we haven't called everyone else Mr. Jones, Dr. Smith etc), we should decapitalise.
a scientific survey onboard the USS Tanager:
WP:NCS and common usage discourages the before a ship's name (there is, after all, by definition only one USS Tanagar at any one time), but the page does say that it isn't technically wrong.
While filming a Laysan finch on April 18, Dickey heard a male honeycreeper, and managed to turn around and film it singing on a coral rock: neater and more concise?
When using the |edition= parameter with books, you need to give it as an ordinal -- eg. 1st, 2nd, 3rd -- otherwise, the template outputs "2 ed.", which is odd and possibly ambiguous.
Personally, I'd go to
ISSN portal and add the rest: giving the ISSN, particularly when you can't link the article, is a good way to reassure people that a) the source exists and b) it's reasonably kosher. It wouldn't be wrong to remove the ISSNs (though some reviewers would then suggest putting them back in), but I think it would be a step backwards. UndercoverClassicistT·
C07:21, 8 June 2024 (UTC)reply
So how does this work, do you search for a specific article or journal, or only those with a DOI? Will save this for last, seems a bit tedious.
FunkMonk (
talk)
03:28, 9 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Pretty much all journals have ISSNs: just stick the name of it in there and it'll come up. DOIs are a different thing -- those are just more stable versions of a URL (for the article itself), whereas an ISSN is an identifying number for the journal as a publication. If you've reused the same journal, it'll be the same ISSN regardless of date, issue, volume etc. UndercoverClassicistT·
C09:47, 9 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Done to the ones that showed up in the search (some of the older ones didn't), yikes, that should really be automated, like adding of so many other identifiers are when pushing the "expand citations" button...
FunkMonk (
talk)
17:44, 9 June 2024 (UTC)reply
That's my lot on a first pass. I truly enjoyed this article, and apologise for the long list of nit-picks: please take them as questions, for the most part, rather than demands. UndercoverClassicistT·
C19:46, 5 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Happy to support: it really is a wonderfully-written article, and certainly one of my favourites that I have read on here, despite its sombre subject matter. Excellent work and thank you for your forbearance with the comments. UndercoverClassicistT·
C20:15, 9 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Ian's drive-by
Laysan should become a government preserve for bird life, protected by human-made destruction -- "protected from human-made destruction"?
wholesale slaughter stood out for me too, similar reasoning to UC.
Copied from above: These are the words of those who reported it (they actually say it no less than three times), I've added quotation marks and in-text attribution: "after this "wholesale slaughter", as Dill and Bryan described it". I agree it shouldn't have been said like that in Wikipedia's voice.
FunkMonk (
talk)
22:18, 7 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I conducted the recent
GA review as a FAC-level review (after prior agreement with FunkMonk), including citation spot-checks and a search for other unused sources. Have no problems with supporting this as FA. Want to also add I'm quite impressed with UndercoverClassicist's attention to detail, and have read his suggestions carefully to see what I missed and to improve my "nitpicking" skills!
Esculenta (
talk)
17:47, 8 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Image review by Generalissima
File:Laysan honeycreeper in 1923.jpg: Public domain.
File:PAT - Hawaii.gif: Released into the public domain.
File:Hawaiian passerine bills.jpg: Public domain.
File:PSM V63 D335 Laysan finch honeywater and wingless rail.png: Public domain.
File:Pezzillo Hosmer ʻApapane-2.jpg: CC-BY-SA 4.0
File:Himatione fraithii.jpg: Public domain.
File:Map of Laysan Island.jpg: Public domain.
File:Laysan Island 2010 USGS Lidar.JPG: Public domain, from USGS.
File:Henry Palmer among frigate birds on Laysan.jpg: Public domain.
File:Poached albatross on Laysan Island.jpg: Public domain.
File:Tanager Expedition camp after sandstorm in 1923.jpg: Public domain.
File:Last Ironwood on Laysan in 1923.jpg: Public domain.
File:Laysan ʻApapane.ogv: Public domain.
All images are appropriate to the article and well-captioned. They all have good alt-text. Everything looks good to me - Support on image review.
Generalissima (
talk) (it/she)
20:41, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Thanks, I disagree with changing the image layout, though, the MOS section you refer to (
MOS:IMAGELOC) specifically says "Multiple images can be staggered right and left", which was the case here. In cases with few images, right aligning them all makes sense, but here it makes it look cluttered, like a wall of images further down the article. Note it also just says "Most images should be on the right side of the page", so it's not a hard rule.
FunkMonk (
talk)
21:59, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Immature birds were brown, with paler lower parts, and had green edges to their wing-covert feathers. Please remove the commas; they're grammatically incorrect
Removed the first comma, but kept the second, as it flows better this way. Not convinced there's anything incorrect about it.
FunkMonk (
talk)
18:59, 2 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The honeycreeper lived throughout it, but was most abundant in the interior among tall grass and low bushes near the open plain that bordered the island's lagoon. A comma is not needed here and I'm not sure about "throughout it"
From 1893 to 1900, Rothschild published a three-part monograph on the birds of Laysan, with further observations about the honeycreeper, which he referred to as the Laysan honey-eater. Hyphen here is grammatically incorrect
Pyle therefore concluded that according to the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature, the name should not be emended, and the original spelling should be reinstated. No need for the last comma
Some museums have multiple specimens, including: 24 in the Bernice Pauahi Bishop Museum in Honolulu, 20 (including the type specimen) in the American Museum of Natural History in New York City, and 20 in the National Museum of Natural History in Washington, D.C.. What is happening at the end?
but much of it was destroyed by human activities by 1923, leaving near-desert like conditions and several extinct plant species, though the extent of the vegetation had almost recovered by 1973. Add a hyphen between desert and like
In 1903, Fisher stated that the Laysan honeycreeper was found all over Laysan Island, but was most abundant in the interior among tall grass and low bushes near the open plain that bordered the lagoon, an area where all the land-birds appeared to congregate. Again, no need for the hyphen
The ovate eggs were glossless white, with grayish blotches and spots at the larger end, and reddish brown spots above these, these markings often forming circles. Awkwardly phrased. I don't like the double "these", the last two commas seem unnecessary and "forming" should be "formed"
In 1909, the US president Theodore Roosevelt issued an executive order that made several Hawaiian islets and reefs (including Laysan) part of the Hawaiian Islands Reservation. Rm "the" and capitalize "president"
Unsolicited feedback, I know, but a lot of these grammar points are contrary to the MoS. Compound modifiers should always have a hyphen (
MOS:HYPHEN), commas are perfectly good to break sentences into their constituent parts (
MOS:COMMA) and are perfectly fine in a list before "and" (
MOS:SERIALCOMMA). Compound modifiers with more than two words use an endash (
MOS:DASH). The current framing on Roosevelt is correct per
MOS:PEOPLETITLES. UndercoverClassicistT·
C10:23, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I use
common sense not MOS. Plus, it really depends on the context. Some of the commas and hypens are unnecessary, and it has nothing to do with serial commas or MOS. FYI, a serial comma is used after the penultimate term in a list of 3 or more items, not necessarily before "and".
WolverineXI(
talk to me)11:13, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Thanks, as this is Wikipedia, not a personal website, the MOS is what the follow at FAC, but I'll see if there's some of it I can implement if I feel it works better.
FunkMonk (
talk)
14:37, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
and brown down from Laysan albatrosses (Phoebastria immutabilis) – Birds of the World states "Phoebastria spp", not providing the full species name. This might indicate that modern ornithologists are not convinced that Fischer (1903) could have reliably identified the down to species level. I guess that immutabilis is the most likely but others cannot be excluded. Maybe add "according to Fischer (1903)" to mitigate the issue? (edit: I personally would probably go with just "brown albatross down"). --
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
22:50, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
finch family Drepanidae – but the finches where their own family since the beginning, wasn't the Drepanidae considered as a family distinct from finches?
member of the finch family Drepanidae, the Hawaiian honeycreepers – I think this needs some hint that this family is no longer in use, and I found it confusing. Maybe write "a member of the Hawaiian honeycreepers, which at the time were considered a separate family named Drepanidae"?
My concern was that Drepanidae cannot possibly be a "finch family", because finches are (and have always been) considered a family on their own. The sentence would imply that Drepanidae are a family within a family, which is not possible. I know that "finch" may also be colloquially applied to a diffuse wider grouping, but in that case, the wikilink is misleading as it points to "true finches". What about "and classified it in Drepanidae, commonly called the
Hawaiian honeycreepers, which are now classified within the
finches (Fringillidae)."? --
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
18:28, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Ok, I only just realised the source of confusion, as I haven't read everything in the old papers concerned with higher taxonomy, but apparently at the time this species was named, Drepanidae and Fringillidae were considered two separate families
[25], while it was unclear how the two were related to each other.
[26] The easiest would of course just be to gloss over it, but I think I need to find a way to explain it, while also mentioning when drepanids were considered a subgroup of finches... Will have to look through some sources, well-spotted!
FunkMonk (
talk)
20:13, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The article already hinted at this, I just didn't put two and two together: "Their relationships to other finches remained uncertain, and they were often considered a distinct lineage outside the Fringillidae."
FunkMonk (
talk)
20:44, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes, I think I understood it when reading about it later in the taxonomy section; I just found the sentence confusing without being aware of that later information. Now, I think we just need to adjust the sentence, I see two issues: First, it's not really a "finch family", and second, the Hawaiian honeycreepers are still recognised today (just not as a family under the name Drepanidae).
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
22:40, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I'm thinking about just leaving out mention of finches until the evolution section, and just letting that section explain the issue as it is. It isn't really relevant to the taxonomic history of this species in itself anyway. What do you think?
FunkMonk (
talk)
22:46, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Yeah, maybe just "and classified it in the now defunct family Drepanidae"? Just needs some hint that the family is no longer recognised, I think.
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
23:26, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I tried with "classified it as a member of Drepanidae which was recognized as a family at the time, commonly called the
Hawaiian honeycreepers" because I don't want to editorialize too much by retroactively calling it defunct. But it should make it clear that it is specific for its time. That Hawaiian honeycreepers are still used as a group today is indicated by the evolution section. That said, it seems odd a clade name isn't used for them anymore...
FunkMonk (
talk)
14:39, 30 June 2024 (UTC)reply
which is found across the main Hawaii archipelago, while differing in various details. – the word "while" does not make sense to me here. Would "and differs in various details" work?
Some museums have multiple specimens, including: 24 in the Bernice Pauahi Bishop Museum in Honolulu, 20 (including the type specimen) in the American Museum of Natural History in New York City, and 20 in the National Museum of Natural History in Washington, D.C.. – Any information where the holotype is? London? --
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
23:35, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Did you overlook it or is it unclearly worded? "20 (including the type specimen) in the American Museum of Natural History".
FunkMonk (
talk)
17:39, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Laysan had been a raised coral island until 18,000 years ago – Was it really a
coral island (one formed from coral detritus)? Later in the text you instead state that it formed from volcanic activity. --
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
13:48, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Are the two mutually exclusive? The source for that part says "The aspect of Laysan as a raised coral island 18,000 years ago may now be observed in the high coral islands of Makatea and Henderson". Another cited source says "Laysan is a coral island capped by large sand accumulations and with a large salt water lagoon in its central depression. The island is probably the flattened top of a once massive volcanic peak formed perhaps during the Miocene, since eroded far below the present sea level, and subsequently built up by the action of coral, other marine invertebrates and calcareous algae. The depth of the coral deposits capping Laysan has not been determined but is probably considerable."
[27] So from what I read, the base is volcanic, but the surface is coral?
FunkMonk (
talk)
17:39, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
due to the limited building materials – do you mean "due to the limited selection of building materials"? As it is now, it reads as if the total amount of building material would be limited, but that does not really explain why the nests are similar. It makes sense when there are only a few types of building materials available (irrespective of their abundance).
and rootlets with some dry grass (variously described as loosely or well built) – the gloss appears to refer to "some dry grass", but that does not make much sense to me. Should this refer to the nest as a whole instead?
I tried to move it out of the parenthesis as " The nest, which was variously described as loosely or well built, was lined with fine rootlets".
FunkMonk (
talk)
14:39, 30 June 2024 (UTC)reply
"in 1892, and was placed in the" to "in 1892, who placed in the"? The current structure feels a bit off to me because I expect parallelism and there isn't any.
You spell it Drepanidae in "classified it as a member of Drepanidae". I'm not sure it that's intentional or not.
It's how it was spelled in the publication where this species was named, see last paragraph under evolution for details on variations.
FunkMonk (
talk)
16:02, 2 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"arise through isolation, and noted" Comma unnecessary.
2 probably needs an archive link, and should say what the source is rather than just the domain. Some sources like #15 need archives. I notice inconsistent applications of identifiers like DOI and JSTOR, is this an artifact of distinct sources having distinct parameters? It looks like we are dealing with prominent journals as sources.
Jo-Jo Eumerus (
talk)
09:23, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Added archive to PDF link 2. It also says "Bishop Museum", so I'm not sure what else you mean needs to be added? Not sure why sources like 15 need archives, it's a link to the museum journal's repository where the PDF can be found, do you mean all sources to PDFs need to be archived? As for DOI/JSTOR, both don't necessarily exist for all the same sources.
FunkMonk (
talk)
15:09, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Jozo Tomasevich was a Yugoslav-American economist and historian whose works on Yugoslavia in WWII continue to be widely cited today despite his first book on the Chetniks being published nearly fifty years ago. According to the German historian Klaus Schmider, it is a tragedy that he died before completing the third volume of his planned series on Yugoslavia in WWII which was to be focussed on the Partisans. Even his second volume had to be published posthumously in 2001, with editing by his daughter. I have used his works right across my WP contributions on WWII on Yugoslavia, and his work forms the foundation on which many more recent historians have built. This is my second nom of a historian of WWII in Yugoslavia after
Radoje Pajović. Have at it.
Peacemaker67 (
click to talk to me)
08:13, 5 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Consider adding the ISBN for Tomasevich and Vucinich 1969. Is this the one: 9780520015364? Also, Google Books shows Vucinich here was an editor and not an author.
Are there any details on his collaboration with Wayne Vucinich?
Not beyond him contributing a chapter to the book. They taught at different universities in California and I understand they were close colleagues and co-received an award in 1989, and I'd love to know more given the Vucinich brothers were Serbs and Tomasevich a Croat, but they appear to have got along very well.
Peacemaker67 (
click to talk to me)
09:30, 15 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I'm not sure military biography is the right WPMH task force here, you should consider removing it and retaining only the historiography task force tag.
Has anyone endeavored to publish the Tomasevic papers at HILA or Volume 3 of his series? I found one article on this from the Washington Post but it was paywalled.
Hi @
Peacemaker67, above comments all OK. A minor issue I forgot to spot last time: we need page numbers for a couple of the sources, namely Baletić 1997, Prosecutor versus Vojislav Šešelj 2008, Irwin 2000, Auty 1976, Dragnich 1976 and Campbell 1976. The other sources are only one pagers, so those don't have any problems, but these one have multiple pages, so you will need to add the page numbers for them.
Matarisvan (
talk)
08:31, 22 June 2024 (UTC)reply
G'day
Matarisvan. Strictly speaking, the short "review" citations do not need a page, as the page range given in the long citation is only 2-3 pages long, and anyone wishing to
verify them need only read a page or two, and in any case their comments should be read in the context of the whole review. I have added pages for the Baletić and Prosecutor vs Vojislav Šešelj short citations, as they are longer pieces of work. Cheers,
Peacemaker67 (
click to talk to me)
07:02, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
His final book was the second volume of the series – War and Revolution in Yugoslavia 1941–1945: Occupation and Collaboration – which was published posthumously in 2001 after editing by his daughter Neda.
after usually means -> in the time following an event or another period <-> in which case, it soumds like the book was edited after its publication - what am I missing?
In an obituary in the Slavic Review, Tomasevich was described as "a master of scholarly skills, a person of bountiful erudition, wit and human dignity".
<>I hate quibbling further, but now means at the present time, at this moment or very soon. So, how about dropping the word, or replacing it with something like this: -> Košarni Do is a hamlet of Donja Banda and in (year) became part of the Orebić municipality within the Dubrovnik-Neretva County of Croatia.
Pendright (
talk)
22:00, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
In 1938, he was the recipient of a two-year Rockefeller fellowship and moved to the US,[3] thereby "availing himself of the rich resources of Harvard University".
"availing himself of the rich resources of Harvard University" -> If this is a direct quote, should there be attribution-if not, then should italics be used?
In 1937, Tomasevich married Neda Brelić, a high school teacher. They were happily married for 57 years and had three children – Anthony, Neda Ann, and Lasta. In 1976, Tomasevich contributed an essay to a book in which he conducted a sociological and historical analysis of his extended family reaching back to the early nineteenth century.
Somehow,Chronologically, these sentences seem out of order?
The first appeared in German in 1934 and was titled Die Staatsschulden Jugoslaviens (The National Debt of Yugoslavia).
during 1934
The following year, he had Financijska politika Jugoslavije, 1929–1934 (Fiscal Policy of Yugoslavia, 1929–1934) published in Serbo-Croatian, covering much of the same material but more accessible to Yugoslavs.[1]
Does 1929-1934 need to be repeated?
which covered
A 1940 review of the book in Weltwirtschaftliches Archiv, by Professor Mirko Lamer – who later served with the United Nations as an expert at the Food and Agriculture Organization – described Novac i kredit as an important work that filled a large gap in Yugoslav economic literature, and also gave a vivid picture of then-current economic theory.[9]
International marine resources and Yugoslav peasants
The first [book] was International Agreements on Preservation of Marine Resources, [that was] published by Stanford University Press in 1943.
Suggest the above changes
The second book, Peasants, Politics, and Economic Change in Yugoslavia [was] published in 1955, was [and] described by Vucinich as "a study of monumental scope [which] has been widely recognized as the most comprehensive and accomplished study in the field".
In 1957, Tomasevich received a San Francisco State University grant for Slavic and Eastern European studies.[12]
Suggest -> In 1957, Tomasevich received a grant from San Francisco State University for Slavic and Eastern European studies.[12]
The first volume focused on the Chetnik movement led by Draža Mihailović, which was subtitled The Chetniks and appeared in 1975.
In the context used, what does appeared mean?
Soon after it was published, the book was reviewed by Phyllis Auty, professor of modern history at Simon Fraser University.
Replace the comma with "who was a
The third volume in the planned trilogy, which was to cover the Partisans, was 75 per cent complete at the time of his death,[1] and remains unpublished.
"Between 1943 and 1955, Tomasevich published two books on economic matters; one focused on marine resources and the other on the peasant economy of Yugoslavia and both of them received positive reviews." - the last part seems like an add-on, and makes the sentence a bit too long. Perhaps - "Tomasevich published two well-received books on economic matters"?
The book was positively reviewed, and twenty-five years later was described as still the "most complete and best book about the Chetniks to be published either abroad or in former Yugoslavia" - the quote doesn't seem important for lead. First, it's unattributed - I see in the body of the text that it was from the Croatian historian Ivo Goldstein, but that doesn't mean his quote should be in the lead. Could you write the same meaning without the quote?
the so-called Independent State of Croatia. - "so-called" seems a bit biased and pointy for my liking. Could you word it differently?
it is often described in this way (eg by the US Holocaust Memorial Museum and others), as ironically it was far from "independent", being essentially an occupied quasi-protectorate propped up by large numbers of Axis troops.
Peacemaker67 (
click to talk to me)
04:07, 13 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"remains unpublished despite being 75 per cent complete at his death." - is there a reason you don't write it as 75%?
You mention Jozo's father's name, but what about mother?
"Jozo completed his secondary education in Sarajevo – then part of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia – before moving to Switzerland to study at the University of Basel where he earned a doctorate in economics. " - when? This is a pretty important part of his life that you glossed over. Is there anything more about this part of his life?
thereby "availing himself of the rich resources of Harvard University" - who said this?
You mention the siblings, but never by name. Any reason?
Some more year/date references would be nice for "Early life" section. For example, "After the war, he initially worked at the Federal Reserve Bank in San Francisco." - When?
"Before the outbreak of World War II – and then known by the anglicised Tomasevich – he moved to California." - again, when? The war broke out in 1939, so there could be a variety of dates.
When did Jozo meet Neda Brelić? For a marriage of 57 years, there's very little on that.
"He became an American citizen." - when?
What did Jozo die from?
The article is fine, but it seems to focus too much on what other people think about his writings, and too little about his actual life. ♫
Hurricanehink (
talk)
17:50, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Since the name is only partially anglicized, it might make sense to figure out what was the pronunciation. We don't happen to have one at
Jozo, while we do have one at
Josip, but in case of Tomasevich it would specifically make sense to note how the Americans pronounced his first name because it's not clear it would have been the same as the original. --
Joy (
talk)
20:22, 30 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Back to the FAC grind after very many years with another Hindi film actress bio. Might be a bit rusty, but looking forward to constructive comments to get this one to its best version. Cheers!
Krimuk2.0 (
talk)
11:02, 24 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Nikkimaria: alt texts added. I've replaced the former pic with a different one that has a working source link, and have updated the sources of the latter pic. Thank you for the review!
Krimuk2.0 (
talk)
17:41, 25 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Aoba47
Is there a citation in the lead's first sentence as it is particularly controversial information or wording?
Her British citizenship leads to a lot of vandalism/edit-warring, which is why the refs & hidden note were added.
I'd revise "troubling circumstance" in the lead as it is pulled directly from the
CNN quote in the article.
Done.
This part, (One of India's highest-paid actresses,
Time magazine), is referring to Time as one of the highest-paid actresses.
Tweaked.
By "victim of drug abuse", do you mean drug addict? If so, I'd use that. The current version reads a tad sensationalized to me.
"drug addict" wouldn't technically be correct in this context, coz in the film, her character is forcefully fed drugs, so a "victim of drug abuse" seems more apt.
I do not know about the "
titular prostitute" phrasing. I get it is more descriptive, but why not "title character"?
Changed.
Do you know anything further about where she was born other than just the country?
This has been a bit
controversial, and no definitive information exists about it.
I have a clarification question based on a discussion on
the talk page. That discussion claims that India does not allow for
multiple citizenship. So is Bhatt no longer an Indian citizen? Would it be worthwhile to clarify that? Also, when did she get her British citizenship? Some further context may be helpful.
Well, India doesn't allow dual citizenship, and she is a British citizen by birth. Unfortunately, no other definitive information exists beyond this.
Apologies in advance for the stupid question. My knowledge about India is extremely limited. How is she a British citizen by birth if she was born in India? I get that according to the citation that she has a British passport, but as an outsider, I am unsure on this.
Aoba47 (
talk)
14:35, 25 May 2024 (UTC)reply
The Times in the UK reported that her mother is British, which is why she has a British passport.
I do not think it is necessary to say "has said" for the quotes. I believe you can just say "said".
This quote, ("I don't remember much of the shoot. I would go to the sets only for the food"), seems unnecessary to me.
Removed.
This quote, ("a washout. Not only is she inelegant in the dance numbers, but her expressions are limited; and the digital retouching of her face throughout the film is a distraction"), is rather long. I think it would be better to paraphrase it.
Tweaked.
I am uncertain about this part, (Bhatt was keen to play a better role). It implies in Wikipedia's voice that Student of the Year was a bad role, and I think that should be avoided for something more neutral.
I would avoid one-word quotes like ("surprise" and "stupendous") as it does not really add much to the article.
Removed.
This sentence is trying to convey too much information: (She played a
Punjabi girl who has an affair before her wedding, in Humpty Sharma Ki Dulhania, directed by
Shashank Khaitan, which was described as a tribute to Dilwale Dulhania Le Jayenge (1995) by Johar.)
Tweaked.
What is meant by "accomplishments" in this sentence: (Her accomplishments in 2014 established her career.)? Critical reviews? Box office? It also seems a bit tacked-on at the end of the paragraph.
Tweaked the wikilinks so people can read up on the nepotism debate caused due to his death.
I am unsure of this sentence: (The year 2022 was key for Bhatt.) I get it is a topic sentence, but I am not sure if it is worded the best, particularly when done in Wikipedia's voice.
Tweaked.
Memoirs of a Geisha is about sex work to some degree, but I would not lump
geishas and prostitutes together generally. I just do not really think of Memoirs of a Geisha under the header of "films about prostitution" as done in the article.
Removed.
Because Bhatt's personal life is so separated into its own section, this sentence came off as very abrupt: (Filming and release were delayed by a few months due to her pregnancy.)
Is there any other way you'd suggest to include this?
For this part, (the unplugged version), is "unplugged" referring to an acoustic performance? If so, I'd use "acoustic" instead.
Done.
In the "Singing and stage performances" subsection, there are a few sentences that start with "In X year". I would be mindful of that as it does make the prose less engaging and come off more as just a listing.
Tweaked.
Welcome back to the FAC process. This review goes up to the "Personal life" section. Apologies for not doing it all in one go. I hope that these comments are helpful. I will continue my review once everything has been addressed. I hope you have a good weekend!
Aoba47 (
talk)
02:23, 25 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I am glad that I could help. Thank you for addressing everything. I will post the rest of my review momentarily. I have left two responses above. One is a clarification question and the other is pointing out that there are still instances of "has said" in the article.
Aoba47 (
talk)
14:35, 25 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I have similar issue with
titular prostitute in the article as I did for the lead.
Done.
This was recently added to the article: (As per the Netflix engagement report, it received nearly 110 million views, making it the second most watched film in the second half of 2023.) I wonder if there is a way to condense it. Something like (According to Netflix, Heart of Stone was the the second most watched film on the platform for the second half of 2023)?
Trimmed it further to just say "The film had strong viewership on Netflix", which I think is sufficient for her bio.
I would condense (for being a beneficiary of nepotism) to (for benefiting from nepotism).
Done.
I am not entirely sure of the relevancy or need for this part, (which journalist Malavika Sangghvi described as an extension of the
dumb blonde stereotype). It is already established that people were trolling her intelligence based on this so I do not think that this specific journalist and this specific stereotype adds much beyond that.
Removed.
Is "clicking pictures" is correct? I am mostly seen it as "taking pictures".
Changed.
This is more an observation, but I am unsure about the third paragraph of the "Media image and artistry" section. It comes off more like an indiscriminate listings of lists that involve Bhatt. I would be curious if there was a way to present this information in a more engaging manner. Right now, it seems like a lot of a lot and is a bit repetitious. I am not saying you need to change it, but it is something that caught my attention.
I can understand this, although I've tried to make the text flow in the most engaging way, much like how it has been written in other FAs such as
Deepika Padukone or
Priyanka Chopra who also regularly feature in such lists.
I would italicize film titles in the citation titles per
MOS:CONFORMTITLE.
Done.
Could you explain to me how works/websites are linked in the citations? I am not entirely sure I follow it. For instance, I do not see
The Indian Express being linked.
I've gone through the refs, and have linked the first occurrence of each publication.
Citation 27 does two authors in the byline (Neha Sharma and Navdeep Kaur Marwah) so that should be added to the citation. Citation 99 also has an author credited in the article (Namrata Joshi), but not included in the citation. It would be probably worth double-checking through the citations to see if there are any other instances of this.
Added.
Thank you for addressing this. The authors are missing for the following citations: Citation 90 (Stutee Ghosh) and Citation 103 (Simon Abrams).
Aoba47 (
talk)
20:25, 25 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Citation 159 is missing a work/website parameter (in this case India Today).
Added.
This should be everything, but once all of my comments are addressed, I will read through the article a few more times to make sure I have not missed anything. I have actually seen Heart of Stone so I was honestly surprised to remember that I have seen Bhatt in a movie.
Aoba47 (
talk)
14:48, 25 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Thank you so much for the detailed review,
Aoba47. Do let me know if there are further improvements to be made. Also, Heart of Stone is one of her weakest films, and definitely not a good barometer to judge her abilities. Haha.
Krimuk2.0 (
talk)
17:01, 25 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I thought Heart of Stone was just okay, but I would imagine that she would be better in a better role (and just a better movie lol). I have three quick comments on the citations below:
Do you think that The Live Mirror should be linked? There is nothing wrong with red links, but do you think that there is potential for an article here?
I've replaced the source.
Citation 16 no longer leads to the article. Citation 124 is dead.
I've replaced citation 16 with a better one. Updated the other ref, which is now # 123.
For Citation 15, I would clarify in the citation that it accessed through
Google Books with the "via=" parameter.
Thank you. Just wanted to point out that my above comment on Stutee Ghosh and Simon Abrams not being attributed in the citation still needs to be addressed. Other than that, the article looks good to me.
Aoba47 (
talk)
06:23, 26 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Thank you for addressing everything and for your patience. I support the FAC for promotion. If possible, I would greatly appreciate any help with
my current FAC, but I completely understand if you do not have the time or interest. Best of luck with the FAC.
Aoba47 (
talk)
06:37, 26 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Drive-by comment, as this is outside my area of expertise; the lead somewhat bowdlerizes the description of
Gangubai Kathiawadi; the film, and Bhatt's role in it, were pathbreaking precisely because they examined sex work, and avoiding naming it in the lead does them a disservice I think.
Vanamonde93 (
talk)
19:24, 3 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Apologies for jumping into this conversation. I did not have an issue with the word "prostitute". I had an issue with the phrase "titular prostitute" as it sounded off to me. It could just be a matter of personal preference on my part. If other editors think that "titular prostitute" would be better, I would not be opposed to it being reinstated as it is not a major point for me.
Aoba47 (
talk)
18:34, 16 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Coordinator comment
Three weeks in and just the single general support. Unless this nomination makes significant further progress towards a consensus to promote over the next three or four days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived.
Gog the Mild (
talk)
12:28, 17 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Comments on sourcing
There are a few academic sources that might be worth using.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2307/26607476 - this is "merely" a review of Bhatt's performance in Raazi but I still think this can be included to offer some variety of the reviews of her performances in the article.
Sorry for the delayed response; I’ve been down with a very bad fever for the last few days. You should be able to access at least the JSTOR one with
WP:TWL. The Springer ones might also be available.
FrB.TG (
talk)
20:21, 30 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Hey,
FrB.TG, I hope you're better now. I added the one JSTOR "review" of Raazi, but did not get much else of value there. Unfortunately, I could not get access to the Springer ones.
Krimuk2.0 (
talk)
07:58, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Another drive-by from me: the first of those (Stardom in Contemporary Hindi Cinema) has such poor grammar in its abstracts that I cannot see how it a heavy-weight source. The second, however, seems necessary to incorporate.
WP:RX should be able to help, if you cannot access it through a library.
Vanamonde93 (
talk)
19:22, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I wanted to review this, seeing that there haven't been many reviews, and
I have an ongoing FAC, so might as well help out.
(Lead) – "In addition to acting, Bhatt has launched her own sustainable clothing brand, Ed-a-Mamma, an ecological initiative, CoExist, and a production company, Eternal Sunshine Productions." - Considering how much of the article is about her filmography to this point, I think the last paragraph could take a bit more time expanding on her other interests. This is a lot for one sentence, so I suggest start with whatever one happened first, and then go from there.
Tweaked.
(Early life) – Alia Bhatt was born on 15 March 1993[3][4] in India. - what state? Do you have a city?
This has led to
discussions before. Unfortunately, no definite information exists beyond the fact that she was born in India.
Are you sure? I'm reading a lot of Google searches saying her birthplace was Mumbai.
This source backs up up. India is too big of a country, and Alia too big of a star evidently, for me to be OK with just listing "India". ♫
Hurricanehink (
talk)
17:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I was always ready to add Mumbai (which logically too makes the most sense), but had been challenged before. Anyway, I've added it back now.
Krimuk2.0 (
talk)
06:18, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Four sentences in the Early life section start with "She". The writing could be improved by some variety, instead of the same sentence structure.
Tweaked.
I feel like you could get the point of the second Early life paragraph without using the quotes, and just describing it, but if you feel strongly about the quotes, I won't object, because on the other hand it's nice to have quotes describing an event.
I've tried to not use too many quotes. I'd say two of them (which are not too long) should be fine.
"She next appeared in Vikas Bahl's short film on women's safety, entitled Going Home." - any more about this? "appeared" is vague, as is whatever the film was, and when it was, and the importance of it. If it's not important, should it be removed?
Expanded, for clarity.
So I just noticed you mentioning currencies in the article. I appreciate you listing both the Indian and the US. It might be worth putting a note somewhere whether the box office totals are unadjusted or inflated. I presume it's just box office sales. And this is a bit of a picky note. I'm enjoying the read so far.
Since she's only been active for a decade, I don't think "inflation" would be much of a factor anyway, so all figures are unadjusted.
"This led to vote brigading on the film's trailer on YouTube, on which it became the second most-disliked video." - apparently it's number three, but wow.
Added, "to that point".
"Even though she learnt to speak her lines in the language, a dubbing artist eventually voiced her lines." - the "eventually" feels unnecessary, and almost pointed.
You're right. Removed.
"Earning over ₹3.5 billion (US$42 million) worldwide, it emerged as one of the year's highest-grossing Hindi films." - why not specify it was 7th? "one of the" feels wishy washy
Done.
" she walked the ramp to support the cause" - is "walked the ramp" a well-known phrase? It seems odd to me that would be such a significant event worth noting
To me, it's pretty common to use this phrase, in Indian English.
To do a random source spotcheck, I used a random number generator between 1 and 203 (the number of references).
25 - checks out, the source covers the information, and is properly cited.
202 - yup, covers the information and is properly cited.
79 - covers a significant moment and is properly cited.
144 - backs up the information and is properly cited.
Thank you for the source review.
I get the picture. One last thing, should Bhatt's political views be mentioned in the article?
Her views on Gaza I thought were good, calling for peace. On the other hand, Alia Bhatt
attended the opening of the
Ram Mandir. I know Bhatt is known for being an actress, but given her widespread activities in other ventures, there should be more about what she actually believes, says she believes, that kind of stuff.
This is a tricky one. She has never been vocal politically or religiously, which might have to do with the kind of trolling one receives these days. Having said that, I didn't find including an Insta story re-share to be particularly notable enough to include. As for the Ram Mandir inauguration, she did so without speaking about the whys or whats, or lending supporting to the ruling party, which is why I once again did not really find the need to include it. I'm keen to hear your thoughts.
Krimuk2.0 (
talk)
10:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I hope my comments aren't too difficult to address. I enjoyed the read, not really knowing anything about her (other than having seen RRR, incidentally). Let me know if you have any questions,
Krimuk2.0 (
talk·contribs). ♫
Hurricanehink (
talk)
21:46, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Thanks for the quick replies! I'm OK with not having the political views (after all, she's an actress), so the only thing left is her birthplace. Also, is it worth mentioning the name of Alia's daughter? I'm guessing that you opted not to for editorial reasons, which is fnie, but if the daughter starts acting in films like her mother at some point, then it should be added. ♫
Hurricanehink (
talk)
17:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Very enjoyable article. Just a couple of comments:
"walked the ramp": I'm not sure what this is - you may need to make it clearer
There's some inconsistency in your capitalisation in the sources, with some having every first letter caps, and others being sentence case. These should be consistent.
Thank you for the kind words,
SchroCat. Your first point has been addressed. I just have a doubt about the second one, and would like to clarify it. I've followed the capitalisation in titles as written in the source itself. Shouldn't that be the case?
Krimuk2.0 (
talk)
06:23, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Seems like a spotcheck took place above. Given what is says on paid news on
The Times of India, I must ask if the sources have been checked for the presence of paid news. Source #12 has a "{{cite news}}: CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)" error message.
Firstpost seems to have a questionable reputation. I doubt that JSTOR links need archives. Why does #168 need a red padlock when other uses of this source don't? What makes bollywoodhungama.com a reliable source? Reliability-wise, I must caution that I am not deeply familiar with the reliability of Indian news media. Also, are there biographies?
Jo-Jo Eumerus (
talk)
09:02, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The Times of India and Firstpost, along with numerous other Indian media sources, may carry paid reporting. I have taken caution to use these, as well as other sources such as NDTV or Hindustan Times with due caution. As for the portal
Bollywood Hungama, it has been used as a significant source for Hindi film FA-class articles for over a decade, including in
Deepika Padukone to
Priyanka Chopra, and has such never been challenged.
Sources 12 and 168 are now fixed. JSTOR archive removed.
This article is about a hurricane that struck California last August, causing unprecedented flooding across the western United States. Hurricane Hilary was at one point a powerful Category 4 hurricane. It caused flooding across Desert Valley, which I actually got to witness firsthand, including an image (not the best, but still relevant enough to include in the article). It just passed its GA review (today actually), and I would love to get it featured by its one year anniversary. Enjoy the read, please let me know how I can improve it. Thanks in advance. ♫
Hurricanehink (
talk)
22:30, 21 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Operationally, NHC had tracked the two systems as the same, assessing that Hilary continued into southern California as a tropical storm,[6] which would have had made it the first tropical storm to cross into the state since Nora in 1997 - it's stated that Hilary was a tropical storm, but then says that it "would have had made it the first tropical storm... in the state since..."- these seem to contradict each other
Yea, the original assessment was that Hilary entered California as a tropical storm, so a lot of media reported on that fact as being the first TS to enter the state. It was only after the fact that the National Hurricane Center realized that it wasn't a true tropical storm in the state. ♫
Hurricanehink (
talk)
15:12, 6 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The Mexican government issued watches for southern Baja California Sur on August 17.[19] They were upgraded - the Mexican government was upgraded? The watches? I assume the latter, but best to avoid "they" when the direct object is what's being referenced here
School classes and public activities were canceled in Baja California, with a baseball game postponed - is the game notable enough to get a whole separate clause
The Los Angeles County Department of Parks and Recreation announced that all parks and facilities were closed for two days - because the department is doing the act of announcing something (present tense) the end of the sentence should be "were to be closed for two days (or at least, this makes more sense in my head)
The US section is much larger than the Mexico section, and yet the hurricane landed in Mexico- any specific reason? If lack of english sources if the issue, consulting a Spanish-speaking editor would be helpful (I know some if you need connections)
I might need to look into this more, admittedly. But it was a weakening tropical storm when it made landfall, which is why the impacts weren't extreme. Even in California, the floods were more on the rare/unusual side than catastrophic. I'm going to look into this today and tomorrow when I have time (my folks are visiting me and my partner this week, so it might be until the weekend). ♫
Hurricanehink (
talk)
15:12, 6 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The strongest gusts were recorded in Los Angeles County – 87 mph (140 km/h) at Magic Mountain, and San Diego County – 84 mph (135 km/h) at Big Black Mountain. - I'm confused here- is 87 for LA county and 84 for San Diego? Right now, I associate 87 with San Diego because they are next to each other visually
Agreed. I split up these clauses. I still believe the San Diego wind reading is significant, as it was still a hurricane-force gust. ♫
Hurricanehink (
talk)
15:12, 6 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Any photos of washed away roads available? Might be on Flickr or similar sites, but I assume such a major event like this would be widely photographed
Do you mean aside from the one in the article? I checked on Flicker, and I didn't see any freely accessible images. It would be great getting images in the San Bernardino/Coachella Valley area, especially of active floods, but the best image Wikipedia commons has is a street image in Los Angeles that isn't worth adding. ♫
Hurricanehink (
talk)
15:12, 6 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Alright, update time! I found more for Mexico. It wasn't much. Hilary had some localized damaging effects. I added the number of power outages in Mexico, schools damaged in Baja California Sur, and details about people who lost their houses. Lemme know what you think of the additions - @
MyCatIsAChonk:. ♫
Hurricanehink (
talk)
22:41, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Nearly four weeks in and just the single general support. Unless this nomination makes significant further progress towards a consensus to promote over the next two or three days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived.
Gog the Mild (
talk)
12:22, 17 June 2024 (UTC)reply
LOL! I missed that. Yeah, it helps. Get a couple of reviews under way within a week or so though will you? You probably know this, but from my boilerplate on finding reviewers.
Sometimes placing a polite neutrally phrased request on the talk pages of a few of the more frequent reviewers helps. Or on the talk pages of relevant Wikiprojects. Or of editors you know are interested in the topic of the nomination. Or who have contributed at PR, or assessed at GAN, or edited the article.
I am going to take a look at this article. I can't remember the last time I reviewed an FAC
"becoming post-tropical before being absorbed into a new system shortly after." - Maybe clarify that the "new system" was an area of low pressure? That phrase could refer to any weather system, including another tropical cyclone
" Hilary became a post-tropical cyclone over land, before being absorbed into a new non-tropical low pressure area early on August 21." - I incorporated the "new" part. ♫
Hurricanehink (
talk)
20:01, 22 June 2024 (UTC)reply
"Damage in the United States were estimated at US$900 million" - Shouldn't it be was, or maybe the first word could be switched to "Damages"?
I went a step further and rewrote it as "The estimated damage total in the United States was US$900 million, much of it in Inyo County, California, where most of the roads in Death Valley National Park were damaged by floods." I felt like that succinctly captured what was responsible for the costs. ♫
Hurricanehink (
talk)
20:01, 22 June 2024 (UTC)reply
"Operationally, NHC had tracked the two systems as the same" - I think that should be "the NHC"
"Portions of I-5, I-8, I-10, I-15, the Pacific Coast Highway, and other roads closed.[48][49][104][105] A nearly 48 km (30 mi) stretch of Interstate 10 (I-10) " - Why is interstate spelled out in the first sentence instead of the second?
Must have been an error when I was moving stuff around. I linked the Interstate highway system, then shortened the second usage of I-10. ♫
Hurricanehink (
talk)
20:01, 22 June 2024 (UTC)reply
"floodwaters reformed the ancient Lake Manly in what the usually dry Badwater Basin, lasting several months" - It looks like "what" is an unnecessary word here. You may have meant "what was" but that also might not be needed
There are several instances in the article of units of measure being switched around. For example: "including warm sea surface temperatures of near 30 °C (86 °F)", "the chance for 130 millimetres (5 in) of rainfall in the mountains of Idaho", "at an elevation of 1,949 m (6,395 ft).", "which grew to a length of 9.7 km (6 mi), a width of 4.8 km (3 mi), and a depth of 0.30 m (1 ft)."
Speaking of that, some refs are missing names and a few have errors relating to that. For example, "Avitabile, Rafael; Feather • •, Bill"; "Now, Spaceflight"; "Staff, LA Blade Digital"
Why are the titles of some Spanish sources translated into English, while others aren't? To remedy this, it might be easier to just use the Spanish titles
I think that's it. These are generally minor qualms and I am open to supporting this nomination if my above comments are adequately addressed --
12george1 (
talk)
21:45, 17 June 2024 (UTC)reply
All of them are in public domain with several ones from the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and U.S. Weather Prediction Center. I'll continue later.
Phlsph7 (
talk)
08:42, 19 June 2024 (UTC)reply
All the media files are relevant to the topic
All media files have captions but they don't all have alt texts, which should probably be added.
For File:Hilary_2023_path.png, would it make sense remove the Storm type explanation in the Map key since we only have one type of storm?
For File:Hurricane_Hilary_Mesoscale_Color.webm, would it make sense to simplify the caption by removing the description of how it was recorded (as imaged by the GOES-18 Advanced Baseline imager in simulated true color) or moving it to a footnote?
Unless there is a good reason otherwise, it's usually best to place the media file next to the paragraph that discusses its topic. For example, road damage in Death Valley National Park is discussed in the 2nd paragraph of the subsection "California" and Lake Manly is discussed in the 3rd paragraph of the section "Aftermath"
Thanks
Phlsph7 (
talk·contribs)! I added alt texts. As for the storm path, I think the map key is useful showing the different map points being related to different intensities on the
Saffir-Simpson scale. The most intense is purple, but that is for Category 5 hurricanes only, which Hilary didn't reach. I changed the one caption to "Timelapse of Hilary from
GOES-18weather satellite". I moved the images as suggested. ♫
Hurricanehink (
talk)
20:54, 22 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Looks good. Regarding the storm type explanation in the caption, I agree that the Saffir-Simpson scale should be included. I meant the part below it, i.e., circle = Tropical cyclone, square = Subtropical cyclone, and triangle = Extratropical cyclone. But this is a minor point. Pass on the media review.
Phlsph7 (
talk)
07:05, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Comments from Tim riley
I know next to nothing about meteorology and can't offer any useful comment on the content of the article. To my layman's eye it looks thorough, neutral and well sourced. A few points about the prose:
"before being absorbed into a new non-tropical low pressure area early on August 21" – I think when a phrase is used attributively like this it needs a hyphen, otherwise what we have is a pressure area that is low.
"and the region was placed under a high risk threat for flash flooding by the Weather Prediction Center (WPC)" – another attributive adjectival phrase that could do with a hyphen. And the use of the passive voice makes it read as though it was the WPC that was doing the flooding. Better recast in the active voice – "and the W– P– C– placed the region …"
"Hilary quickly weakened as it accelerated north-northward" – "north-northward" is a term with which I am not familiar, and I wonder if it is what you meant.
"Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) staff and personnel were ordered to be positioned in southern California by President Joe Biden" – Another passive voice that would be better in the active – "President J– B– ordered …"
"The United States Navy moved carriers and ships out to sea and out of Hilary's path, including the USS Theodore Roosevelt, and to park aircraft in hangars." – The grammar goes off the rails towards the end of the sentence. If I interpret your meaning correctly you need something like "…and parked" rather than "and to park".
"The remnants of Hilary moved through the western United States, producing rainfall from California as far north as Montana." – I think you need a "to" before "as far north as…" otherwise rain is falling horizontally and a very long way.
"U.S. President Joe Biden announced a major disaster declaration – we've been introduced to him earlier. A plain surname is all that is wanted here.
You caught me, I'm a plant to try and get his entire name mentioned as many times as possible on Wikipedia for his reelection bid Fixed. ♫
Hurricanehink (
talk)
21:39, 22 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I wish the nomination well, and I certainly don't oppose it, but I don't know enough about the topic to feel confident in supporting at this stage, and will wait to see if there are comments from better-informed reviewers. Tim riley talk10:43, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Dylan620
I reviewed the GAN for this article back in May, and was greatly impressed with the nominator's work. (Indeed, I have respected him for many years as one of Wikipedia's foremost contributors to weather articles.) There were some things that I let slide at the GAN that I wouldn't have let slide here, but they have already been caught by other reviewers and corrected by the nominator. I've reread the article for the purposes of this review and I do have a few niggling qualms about the prose:
Portions of interstates 5, I-8, I-10, and I-15 were closed, along with the Pacific Coast Highway and other roads. – spelling out "interstates" and then using the I-n abbreviation for the other interstates in the list reads a little awkwardly to me. I would suggest either removing the plural, or removing the I- portions so that the list is just numbers.
Late on August 21, crews reopened state route CA-190 – state routes are abbreviated elsewhere as SR nnn, and I would suggest tweaking this to be consistent with the rest of the article.
Damage in Inyo County alone was estimated at $500 million.[107][108][106][109][110] – that is a lot of superscript all at once. I would recommend bundling these citations.
No problem! The new changes generally look good to me. I will say that "state route SR 190" seems a little redundant and could probably be condensed to just "SR 190", but it would feel rather silly to withhold support over something so minor. For what it's worth, if you have any time or interest, I would greatly appreciate feedback at
my first-ever FAC.
Dylan620 (he/him •
talk •
edits)
23:37, 24 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Having the {{tl:clear}} template leaves about five inches of whitespace between the end of the lead and the history section. That's about the same amount of space as is taken up by the lead. I appreciate that settings, screen sizes etc differ between users, but if I'm seeing it, others will too.
"The origins of Hilary": as it's the first reference in the body of the article, maybe giving the full "Hurricane Hilary" might be beneficial?
"9-1-1 phone service": is it often written like that? I've only ever seen it as our article has it: 911 (as a Brit, I don't see it that often, so it's likely my ignorance here, but having it in line with our article seems a beneficial course)
Thanks,
SchroCat! I removed the clear to remove the whitespace, added "Hurricane Hilary" to that suggestion, and changed to "911", which, agreed, I don't usually see the dashes. ♫
Hurricanehink (
talk)
01:53, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The Guardian does not need an ISSN. #41 and others say www.cbsnews.com, this probably can be turned into a non-URL format. #40 probably needs its source rewritten - "California Governor." What is #57 and #85 and #103 and #143? The Twitter/X links need to say by who they are. Should Telemundo and Newsweek and #150 be italicized? Seems like we are using media and government reports as sources - do we also have academic papers etc?
Jo-Jo Eumerus (
talk)
09:10, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I believe I corrected the instances where it says website, and removed instances of the website in favor of a publisher.
I corrected Ref 40 - "California Governor" to "Office of the Government of California"
Ref 57 is a news release from the National Park Service (added that as publisher). Added publisher for #85, 103, and 143.
I believe all of the Tweets have publishers.
I changed refs to make sure they're italicized.
As for non media/government sources, there is an academic paper discussing the storm's unlikely connection with the earthquake, and I just added a conference which expanded on some of the Nevada impacts. Because the storm was so recent, there hasn't been enough time for the research to paper to publishing cycle.
I've avoided doing this article for years since there are already felid FAs including
lion and
jaguar, but the tiger is in a category of its own. Its the most iconic animal of Asia and one which many would consider their favorite animal. Its absence from mammal FAs has left a gaping hole. We've worked on this article for months, preening through each line and cite and rewriting along the way when needed. It has had a
peer review. Special thanks to
Wolverine XI and
UndercoverClassicist.
We have a number of tiger-related featured pictures not currently used in the article. Obviously, we don't have to include them, but it would be nice for high-quality articles to include the best-quality media.
They include: File:Bengal tiger (Panthera tigris tigris) female 3 crop.jpg, File:Panthera tigris tigris Tidoba 20150306.jpg, and File:Siberischer tiger de edit02.jpg (all featured on en:wp) and File:Amurtiger-Zoo-Muenster.jpg, File:White Tiger in Touroparc.jpg, File:Standing white tiger.jpg, File:Tiger Zoo Vienna.jpg, and File:Close-up view of the head of a white tiger, yawning with the tongue out.jpg (all featured on Commons).
Etymology & taxonomy
"In the 1st century" probably best to specify either AD or BC
"originates" I think this should be past tense, as you're talking about the Latin word?
"between the early 19th and early 21st centuries; namely the" not sure this is the right use of a semicolon
The repetition of "namely" seems unnecessary.
" calling for recognition of P. t. tigris comprising the Asian mainland tiger populations and P. t. sondaica comprising the populations of the Sunda Islands" isn't this just repeating the end of the previous paragraph? I would cut it.
"the two-subspecies proposal of the comprehensive 2015 study" could be shortened to "the 2015 two-subspecies proposal"
"and recognised the tiger populations in continental Asia as P. t. tigris, and those in the Sunda Islands as P. t. sondaica" more repetition, could be shortened to "recognising only P. t. tigris and P. t. sondaica.
"These results were corroborated in 2021 and 2023." while acknowledging
WP:CRYSTALBALL, can we say anything about the possible future developments of the classification?
"the classification used by the Cat Classification Task Force in 2017" did the CCTF use or recognise this classification?
I assume that the † in the Population column of the tables means "extinct"? A key to that effect would be helpful.
"from Turkey to around the Caspian Sea" slightly vague; how far southeast or northwest was its range?
I believed that the Siberian tiger was thought to be the largest subspecies. If this is correct, might be worth mentioning?
" all living tigers have a common ancestor 108,000 to 72,000 years ago" think the tense is off
"The tiger historically ranged from eastern Turkey and northern Afghanistan to Indochina and from southeastern Siberia to Sumatra, Java and Bali." This reads like the range was unbroken, but looking at the infobox map, that is incorrect.
The article's switching between direct speech "The tiger has/does..." and impersonal wording "There are five digits.../It will take to water..." is somewhat stilted; I would suggest sticking to the former.
The first paragraph of "Social spacing" is quite lengthy indeed; would suggest splitting or cutting—do we really need exhaustive listings of data from (five?) tiger ranges? It is the most unreadable part of the article.
I suggested keeping the Sundarbans and the Sikhote-Alin Biosphere Reserve as they appear to represent the lower and higher ends respectively and as well as Panna which shows how they change during the seasons.
BhagyaMani?
LittleJerry (
talk)
01:34, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply
What do you think is difficult to understand re the home ranges? Please suggest how to reformulate this part to improve readability.
BhagyaMani (
talk)
12:09, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply
"The use of tigers and other animals in shows would eventually decline in many countries" seems to contradict "As of 2009, tigers were the most traded circus animals"
Will try to have a closer look soon, but it seems the subspecies table needs work (below some nitpicks just on the table that immediately struck me, but I guess there are more, so it would be great if you could re-read it to clean it up):
The table contains information that should better be discussed elsewhere (e.g., "Linnaeus's scientific description of the tiger was based on descriptions by earlier naturalists such as Conrad Gessner and Ulisse Aldrovandi" – that clearly should rather be the second sentence of "Taxonomy", just after Linnaeus description is mentioned, no?).
Bengal tiger skins in the collection of the Natural History Museum, London were described as bright orange-red with shorter fur and more spaced out stripes than northern-living tigers like the Siberian tiger – why has the Natural History museum to be mentioned here (unnecessary detail?), and isn't there a recent source for this quite obvious feature (you cite a paper from 1939 for this)?
My question was rather why this needs to refer to the collection in the first place; isn't this feature valid for the entire population? Other Bengal tiger skins do not show this pattern? --
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
23:50, 26 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Your question made me read Kitchener (1999) again who wrote that 14 of the total 51 skins in the London museum collection are from Bengal tigers and cautioned that the variation in colour and striping may be much greater than represented by these 51 skins. While I agree that it is not so important to link to the London museum collection, I think it relevant to mention that all descriptions are based on museum specimens. So I amended text in the 1st paragraph. I also removed statements on number of stripes, as Kitchener (1999) showed that the range of stripes from continental to island tiger specimens overlaps and again emphasized that samples are too small to know whether these are representative of populations. Your thoughts?
BhagyaMani (
talk)
06:34, 27 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I want to reiterate that number of stripes – i.e. "fewer" or "more" – is a characteristic of only a few museum specimens, which does not allow to generalise to the entire populations; see Kitchener (1999). –
BhagyaMani (
talk)
11:29, 27 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I see. Do you think we can add this to the article (e.g., … striping patterns and body size of specimens in natural history museum collections that are not necessarily representative for the entire population or similar?). Without this information I fear that the reader is just confused why museum collections are mentioned (I was, at least). Independent from that, I suggest to change "specimens in natural history museum collection" to "museum specimens"; short and simple is better.
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
23:08, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Authors are not properly introduced with full names (e.g., you say "Illiger's description", seemingly assuming that the reader already knows that Illiger described the subspecies).
I think it redundant to repeat names of authors in the 2nd column of the table and therefore shortened descriptions. More details are anyway given in the resp. pages on the populations. –
BhagyaMani (
talk)
10:24, 26 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Illiger's description was not based on a particular specimen, but he only assumed that tigers in the Caspian area differ from those elsewhere. – why "but" rather than "and"?
"It was noted to have"; "It was also said to have"; "The skull is described as"; etc. – Why use such convoluted wording? Any reason why simply "It has", "The skull is", etc. won't work? --
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
01:16, 25 May 2024 (UTC)reply
The type specimen from Sumatra had a dark skin. – I'm confused about this sentence. Only the type specimen had, not the population itself? "Had" means that the type specimen is lost? "Skin" refers to the naked skin under the fur?
It has particularly long hairs around the face, a broader and smaller nasal region than other island tigers with many thick stripes. – "It" still refers to the holotype specimen? What exactly is meant with "nasal region" (technical term to be avoided here; better describe where that region is relative to the nose or other landmarks that every reader will understand). In the photograph I do not see "many" thick stripes, only four at the whiskers.
and a broad occipital bone – for another population below, you call it "occipital plate", is that referring to the same thing? Also, this should be explained (state where it is). Is this a feature that is visible in a living animal (if so, maybe write "broad back of the skull" or something if possible) or is this only visible when looking at a skeleton?
For Panthera tigris sondaica, you give the nominate subspecies and author in the "Population" field, but you don't do the same for the Bengal tiger. Why this inconsistency?
I found that the "subspecies" section is a bit confusing and difficult to follow. It could be clearer. It starts with the nine tiger subspecies, but at first does not make clear that this view is already outdated. (Not sure, maybe start with pointing out the current classification, and then dive into the issue with the other proposed subspecies?). More suggestions on the issue in the following comments:
The validity of several tiger subspecies was questioned in 1999. – This is followed by some explanation, but while reading, it first wasn't clear to me that these directly relate to that sentence. Maybe use ":" or directly combine parts of the following sentence with this one to make this clear.
Later, you have Therefore, it was proposed to but it was not clear to me that this relates to the 1999 study. Text could be re-arranged for better flow.
This two-subspecies view is still disputed by researchers, since the currently recognised six living subspecies can be distinguished genetically. – Now this directly contradicts your previous text: "Disputed by researchers", you mean by "some" researchers? Currently recognised are only two subspecies, not six, right? And of course populations can be distinguished genetically, even single individuals can be, that does not make any sense to me.
Results of a 2018 whole-genome sequencing of 32 samples support the Bengal, Malayan, Indochinese, South China, Siberian and Sumatran tigers being distinct monophyletic tiger clades – Do these researchers propose to recognise the mentioned tigers as distinct subspecies, or what is the conclusion here? --
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
23:50, 26 May 2024 (UTC)reply
however, today, the connection between 'arrow' and the river's name is doubted, and they are likely to be Latin homonyms. – I can't really follow here. This means that the connection between "tiger" and "arrow" is firmly established? What does "they are likely to be Latin homonyms" mean here? You were talking about Armenian and Persian, not Latin?
The source does not make it clear whether the connection to arrow is discredited.
Following Linnaeus's first descriptions – why plural, did he publish several first descriptions? I furthermore think that this part of the sentence can be removed; it does not add anything as far as I can see.
sister taxon, sister species – these refer to exactly the same thing. Using two different terms here confuses. I would stick with "sister species", since it is a bit more accessible than "sister taxon".
Genetic studies of modern and ancient lineages suggests – "suggest"? And why "modern and ancient", what does this add? Or where fossils sampled for DNA?
The ancestors of the South China tiger intermixed with a relict population in northeastern China. This comes out of the blue and without any context, and I really cannot follow.
tigons are around the same size as either species. – same size as which species? "either" does not make sense to me because tigers and lions are not the same size?
I'm not completely convinced about prose quality, but I will try to list everything I find. I am very busy at the moment in RL so I cannot promise anything though. --
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
02:15, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The tiger's skull is large – You already stated that the head is large, so this feels repetitive.
resembles a lion's skull, with the structure of the lower jaw and length of the nasals being the most reliable indicators for species identification. – I am not sure how helpful this information is when you do not specify how the lower jaw differs (seems that the underside is concave in one species and straight in the other, so this is something a lay person can easily see, not some obscure detail).
an incurved lower jaw – are you sure? The German Wikipedia article says that the jaw is convex at the underside, not side, so the underside is "upcurved", if anything. Also, you now mention the jaw twice in two subsequent sentences, which sounds repetitive. I would propose to change the sentence It resembles a lion's skull, with the structure of the lower jaw and length of the nasals being the most reliable indicators for species identification to It resembles a lion's skull, but differs from it in the convex (rather than concave) underside of the lower jaw and in its longer nasals, which would be shorter, easier to read, and more informative (I assume that the nasals are longer (?), this is another thing that is unnecessarily unspecific; instead of stating "differs in the length of the nasals" it would be easy to state that the nasals are longer or shorter). --
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
23:48, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The information about size is a bit lacking. I think you should not only provide total length, but also body length excluding tail length. Also, height at the shoulders is important.
Is the tiger really larger than the lion? It seems to be longer, but that only seems to be because of the longer tail? You could also mention that the tiger's tail is longer than that of the lion.
See
[28]: The team also looked at the popular idea that tigers are ‘bigger’ than lions (which could mean that the tiger’s relatively bigger brain size simply reflects its bigger body). However, careful re-evaluation of original field data and relatively well-documented hunting records does not support this idea. – If this is correct, than our Wikipedia article is in error. We have to dig deeper into this; the question "which is the biggest cat" is absolutely central for this article. --
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
23:16, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
It has been hypothesised that body sizes of different tiger populations may be correlated with climate and be explained by thermoregulation and Bergmann's rule. – This is not as accessible to general readers as it should be. This sentence need some explanation; what does it mean? Thermoregulation is not even linked.
Better, but
temperatures do not really seem to differ between India and Indonesia? And doesn't
Foster's rule apply here? Also, there is a wording issue I think: you now state that Bergmann's rule has been used to explain, but Bergmann's rule does not explain anything, it is just a correlation. There are different possible explanations for Bergmann's rule, but the rule itself does not explain why animals in warmer climates are smaller.
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
19:05, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Maybe we should remove this reference to Bergmann's rule altogether? Kitchener states .. there are too few data to confirm this. So it is pure speculation whether size is influenced by this or any other circumstances like availability and size of prey. Little Jerry : your thoughts?
BhagyaMani (
talk)
20:17, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Why not simply "the underside of the body and inward side of the legs", avoiding these terms that >95% of the readers won't understand anyways?
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
23:23, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
"Ventral surface" means "underside", nothing more and nothing less. Anyways,
here are a few pages of the Mazak book about the tiger. It seems to be the most comprehensive resource available, a pity you don't have it. It is in German, but I will see what's in there. For a start, on p. 23 he states that "the inner parts of the ears, the snout region, the throat, the cheek beard, the chest, the belly and the inner sides of the limbs are pure white to light cream coloured." Do you like me to add important bits of this source?
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
02:45, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Changed. I don't see the need to use that source. We've already got seven major books, one of which is an written by an expert from India and another is an English translation of a Russian language book. I don't think we need a German language book (no tigers in Germany) for granular information.
LittleJerry (
talk)
12:52, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
You were saying that you don't have a source stating that the inner side of the legs is white and therefore cannot fix the accessibility issue I pointed out. I then found a source for you that explicitly states this. And now you don't want to use it. You can fix it anyway you want, but unnecessary technical terms like "ventral surface" in such a central article are a no-go for me.
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
13:27, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
dichromats – same. There are too many unexplained and often unnecessary terms to list them here; please look for others. Many things could be formulated much more simply.
It also has a prominent white spot on the back of the ears which are surrounded by black – That means that the ears are surrounded by black?
I think that nose colour is so obvious and basic that it should be inside here. The German Wikipedia cites Mazák "The tiger" (p. 115 and following) for this. --
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
14:46, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Let's see what others think, then. "What is the nose colour of a tiger" is something every child could ask, and it is even more relevant because nose colour in the lion is quite different.
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
23:26, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
[29] – This is an entire article just on the tiger nose. It says that the nose is pink and without spots in young tigers, and that black spots appear and become more numerous as the tiger gets older. This has even been used to estimate the age of wild tigers. I think that this is a fascinating fact to mention!
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
00:22, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
they exhibited a high temporal overlap with ungulate species. – Maybe try a simpler, plain wording like "similar to the ungulate species they prey on"?
Tigers groom themselves, maintaining their coats by licking them and spreading oil from their sebaceous glands. – What's the function of the oil? Water proofing? You could also mention why they groom, I don't think that casual readers usually have an idea. (removing parasites? maintaining functionality of the coat?)
The first two paragraphs in behaviour are without second-level heading, so the reader doesn't know what they have to expect there. Maybe call it "Activity and locomotion", move the grooming to the section "health and parasites", and move the information on sprinting speeds here? I know that organising all this diverse information into clear-cut sections is not easy, but I feel that it is possible here.
The benefit of avoiding paragraphs without heading is that the reader would know what the section is about before reading it, and they would also know where to find the information about activity and locomotion by looking at the content menu and without looking through the entire article. Don't you agree that this would be an improvement? --
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
23:32, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I think the non-sectioned header looks better for the section. "Activity and locomotion" is just an awkward section title. "Locomotion" is probably one of the topics that would be least searched for anyway.
LittleJerry (
talk)
01:20, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
establish and maintain home ranges - can one really "establish" and "maintain" a home range? Maintainance can only mean defending it, but then it would be a territory, no?
Males and females defend their home ranges from those of the same sex, – Home range or territory? As you formulate it, "home range" does not appear to meet the definition provided by the linked article.'
Young males have an annual mortality rate of up to 35 percent. By contrast, young female tigers die at a rate of only around 5 percent. – Why is this in "social spacing", wouldn't mortality be better paired with the health section?
No. Disease is not the only and sole reason for mortality, I presume.
BhagyaMani (
talk) 18:52, 27 June 2024 (UTC) But I concur that the sentence is somewhat misplaced under #Social spacing, so moved it to #Reproduction and life cycle, where relation between adults and young is explained.
BhagyaMani (
talk)
19:02, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
increasing her vocalisations – complex, convoluted wording again. And too unspecific, too (what kind of "vocalisation"?). "Roars more often" or something like that?
A tigress in oestrus signals her readiness to mate by scent marking more frequently and increasing her vocalisations. – Why is this in social spacing rather than reproduction? It does not seem to have anything to do with spacing.
I think the Conservation section has a structure problem:
It starts with the protection status in the different countries, and then dives into specific measures the individual countries have taken. So far so good. However, then you have one general remark, (In 2010, representatives of the tiger range countries agreed to double tiger populations.), which is then again followed by measured of more individual countries. I think this general remark should be moved into the first paragraph of the conversation section, before going into the actions of the specific countries.
Imo, this general remark can be removed, because this multilateral agreement is just a political statement of a multi-decades long-term vision. Far more relevant for conservation, I think, are the action plans developed in range countries with participation of researchers and other stakeholders working in the field who have a more realistic understanding of what is feasible and achievable in shorter time frames of 5–10 years. That is why we grouped all the info about the national action plans into one paragraph. –
BhagyaMani (
talk)
08:36, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
However, I agree that the remaining sentences in the 3rd paragraph are somewhat disconnected. I therefore propose to move statements re legal issues into the 1st paragraph about nationals laws and statements re patrolling into the next paragraph on anti-poaching measures. Since the last sentence .. one unit under the Central Forest Spine initiative is about management, not about conservation, it can be removed as well. –
BhagyaMani (
talk)
08:36, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Parts of the conversation section is organised around countries, but some is organised around one particular measure, wildlife corridors, which has a paragraph on its own. As a result, for example, some of the content on Indonesia is discussed in the second paragraph that discusses actions country-by-country, while other content on Indonesia is discussed in the wildlife corridor paragraph. The structure (succession of information) of the whole section is therefore a bit confusing and inconsistent. A possible solution of this problem could be to start with a general paragraph that lists and briefly explains the principal conservation actions taken (e.g., protection of habitats, protection of prey species, anti-poaching, wildlife corridors). This could then be followed by the country-by-country accounts. As a result, the lone "wildlife corridor" paragraph could be resolved, with the general content going into the new introduction paragraph and the rest into the country accounts.
I think that info on wildlife corridors merits a separate paragraph. Several more articles on such corridors have been published in the 2010s, but we decided to focus here on transboundary ones + reference only the most recent post-2020 articles. –
BhagyaMani (
talk)
09:14, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Conservation breeding is not mentioned under "conversation" but surely plays an important role too?
The South China tiger is the best example since this population only exist in captivity; this highlights the importance for conservation. However, I think some more general remarks are needed. Or maybe in the "Captivity" section. In that section, the role of coordinated breeding programs modern zoos is not covered (the goal is to establish a “genetic reservoir” as "insurance against extinction in the wild", see e.g.
[30]). Captive tigers in zoos are also important for education (people protect what they know), which indirectly aids with conservation. Zoos and their positive aspects come too short; the section only lists negative aspects of captivity but this positive aspect should be there too. --
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
22:52, 30 June 2024 (UTC)reply
A good start, but you should mention the coordinated breeding programs of zoos that make this happen. It needs to be clear that you are not talking about the circuses and pet trade that the "captivity" section is all about. This uncoordinated breeding can in fact have a negative impact on conservation (e.g., overrepresentation of white tigers, as already mentioned earlier in the article), so it is absolutely crucial to make this distinction.
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
23:34, 30 June 2024 (UTC)reply
More often, tigers take the more vulnerable small calves – I found the "small" a bit irritating, can it be removed? Goes without saying that calves are smaller?
Depending on the prey, they typically kill weekly though – "Depending on the prey" can mean so many things. Prey abundance? Type of prey? Should be more specific.
Tigers are recorded as hosts for various parasites including Diphyllobothrium erinacei, Taenia pisiformis and Toxocara species in India and Physaloptera preputialis, Dirofilaria ursi and Uiteinarta species in Siberia. – I think you should also state what these are, respectively (tapeworms, nematodes, etc), to give the casual reader the necessary context.
The tiger has been listed as Endangered on the IUCN Red List since 1986, as the global tiger population is thought to have continuously declined – "and" instead of "as"? The causality implied by "as" does not make sense. --
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
20:09, 30 June 2024 (UTC)reply
In 1830, two tigers and a lion were accidentally put in the same exhibit at the Tower of London. This led to a fight between them and, after they were separated, the lion died of its wounds. – I wonder what this anecdote adds to the article. I am inclined to suggest to remove it.
conducted by cable television channel Animal Planet – you don't usually provide that level of detail elsewhere. Maybe remove the mention of the TV channel?
The "Hunting" section is basically a list of examples of tiger hunts, but without connection and context. Instead, the section should ideally focus on general information, and provide examples only to illustrate these general points. For example, a sentence like Historically, tigers have been hunted on foot, horseback, elephant-back, and from machans (from the article
tiger hunting) would be such general information (just to give an example; I am not suggesting to necessarily include this particular sentence). Also, the paragraph needs some introductory sentences and stuff to guide the reader, to provide some red threat, to provide a logical structure.
One last comment: In the "hunting" section, I would include a sentence stating why they were/are hunted, pointing out the different reasons (to reduce attacks on humans and livestock; for sport; for their coat and other parts; etc.).
Jens Lallensack (
talk)
15:43, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The following is feedback from my sister, Sarah Christie, who was a significant figure in the tiger conservation world in the 90s and 00s. She's one of your cited authors (Seidensticker, Christie & Jackson, Riding the Tiger).
Mike Christie (
talk -
contribs -
library)
11:14, 6 June 2024 (UTC)reply
"I would be very wary of using that 1967 International Zoo Yearbook paper as an authoritative source ('cubs born in spring').I don't recall the details of the paper, but I bet the sample size wasn't high and it was from only one reserve, in India. Probably the authors cited it because it was the only statement available on the matter, which is presumably because nobody's ever found any signfiicant data. I can't give you details, but I and others looked for birth seasonality in our substantial zoo tiger datasets and didn't really find anything significant, and I know that Dale Miquelle and others, looking for it in wild Amur tigers - the one place you might expect it to confer benefits, and where we found a weak bias in our zoo Amur tiger data - also failed to find it, to their and everyone else's surprise. Get the authors to check this with a current expert. (Breeding in zoo tigers can be managed by separation, and a motive exists for ensuring cubs are present through the summer season, so I think wild data are better - they're also much harder to get, of course.) Tara Harris now runs the American Zoo Association Species Survival Plan for tigers (Ron died) and has good links to the WCS tiger people for wild data, she would be a good place to start. Look for contact details for the AZA Tiger SSP Coordinator."
"The captive section is somewhat lacking. It mentions tigers in AZA facilities in passing only. This gives the impression that the US is the only place with zoo tigers which is incorrect, and there's no info on numbers or role. I'm not suggesting an essay, but a couple of paras on current numbers and what roles zoo tigers play might be worth adding in. A LOT of money has been raised by 21CT, primarily from zoos, and the tiger SSP now raises funds for WCS projects. Zoo expertise has also been helpful in the rehab and release stuff particularly in Sumatra. Tara Harris and 21CT will have all this stuff."
"I wonder why there's nothing from Russia in the para on Population Density, which is lower there than elsewhere, in general. Maybe it's because they're too thinly spread there for a proper camtrap study to work and so the data would not be directly comparable. The next bit on social spacing has plenty of Russian info, from radiotracking rather than camtraps."
Sarah also mentioned a point that would be harder to cite, but I'll pass it along:
"I doubt this is worth adding in, not least because I can't think of a way to cite it, but I know of at least two instances in which male tigers have been seen associating with a female and cubs not actually on kills. One is photos by Valmik Thapar in India showing a family group using a pool to keep cool in the hot season; another is a series of camtrap pics by Linda Kerly in Lazovsky NP in Russia, showing a male followed, at intervals, by a female and several cubs along a trail. I don't know if she ever published on that outside the ZSL internal conservation newsletter I put it in (she was our person in Lazo)."
Mike_Christie Please pass this along. Thank you for the comments. I have added numbers for captive tigers in the US, Europe and Asia. The captivity section mainly focuses on tigers used for display and entertainment. I'm sure we could add a little more on the role of zoos in conservation in that respective section. A few paragraphs seems a bit much. We do have tiger conservation as a
spin-off article where more information can be added there. I'll look for a replacement for the Yearbook article. I've replaced the Yearbook as a cite in regards to the mating season and gestation period but I have also contacted Dr Harris for her comments.
LittleJerry (
talk)
13:03, 6 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Also, Thapar 2004, pp. 55–56 does mention and includes a picture of a male tiger swimming with family. Thats what is referred to with "They socialise and even share kills".
LittleJerry (
talk)
13:47, 6 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Re fund raising in zoos for tiger conservation projects : the latest I found in this regard is a book chapter dating 2004, see
https://www.cabidigitallibrary.org/doi/full/10.5555/20093032085, hence rather outdated for the purpose of this wiki page. If there is nothing more recent, e.g. post-2020, I suggest to skip this issue of funding here. Some authors acknowledged zoos for partly funding their projects, but it seems that the donor landscape has changed in the past 20 years to Panthera Corp and WWF being major funders of tiger focused projects.
BhagyaMani (
talk)
16:05, 9 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Wolverine
Just recently I happened to cross paths with a female
Bengal; quite the experience that was. A second look into the article won't hurt. Comments forthcoming on the 10th of June; if not, give me a ping. Stay tuned for more.
WolverineXI(
talk to me)23:44, 9 June 2024 (UTC)reply
This population inhabits the Indian subcontinent.[17] The Bengal tiger has shorter fur than tigers further north,[8] with a light tawny to orange-red colouration,[8][18] and relatively long and narrow nostrils. Why link tawny?
Indochinese tiger specimens are smaller with smaller skulls than specimens from India.[27] They appear to have darker fur than specimens from India with stripes being slightly narrower. "Specimens from India" in the second sentence is a bit repetitive
From a first skim-through looking for typos etc I take it that the article is intended to be in BrE (behavioural, colour, colouration, hypothesised, recognised etc) but a couple of AmE spellings have crept in: "molt" (the OED favours moult, and Chambers calls molt "N. Amer") and, in a section heading, "Behavior [and ecology]". "Flehmen response" becomes "flehman" at one point, which is not in either dictionary (and the OED capitalises Flehmen as it is a proper noun).
Support. I've found it difficult to spot anything else to quibble about. The few following points are so minor that I can happily support without waiting for a report back.
"transverses across rivers" should be just "traverses rivers" – no "n" and no preposition.
"A young male may have to live as a transient in another male's home range until he is older and strong enough to challenge the resident male. Young males thus have an annual mortality rate of up to 35%" – two points here: I can't work out why "thus" is there – the implied causality is unclear. And in prose (though not in tables) it is usual to write "per cent" rather than using the % symbol.
"Tigers typically move kills ... though they have been recorded dragging it..." – plural "kills" has become singular "it" by the end of the sentence.
"four of these do not harbour tigers any more at least since 2013" – this reads rather awkwardly: perhaps "four of these have no longer harboured tigers since at least 2013" or some such?
"Man-eating tigers tend to be old and disabled" – this looks puzzling at first glance until one realises that homo sapiens is easier prey than elephants or rhinos. Might be worth a word of explanation here.
"Methods to counter tiger attacks have included face masks worn backwards" – eh? How do they help? A brief explanation would be a kindness.
Delightful closing paragraph – Blake, Kipling and Milne: a pleasing combination.
"It is traditionally classified into nine recent subspecies, though some recognise only two subspecies, mainland Asian tigers and island tigers of the Sunda Islands." You imply in the subspecies section that most experts recognise more than two, and I think this should be in the lead.
"overlaps with that of multiple females with whom he has reproductive claims." "claims" is an odd word here.
"This two-subspecies proposal was reaffirmed in 2015 through a comprehensive analysis of morphological, ecological, and molecular traits of all putative tiger subspecies." If I understand the source correctly, by molecular traits they mean MtDNA, which supports two subspecies, whereas you say below that whole genome analysis supports more subspecies. If so, this should be clarified. There is a parallel with the debate on Neanderthal/modern human interbreeding. Early results of MtDNA analysis found no evidence of interbreeding, and it was only when methods of whole genome analysis were developed that this was found to be wrong. Was the two subspecies theory based on outdated methods?
Mike Christie does your sister have anything to say on this?
Here's what my sister sent in response to the question.
With regard to the number of species, the key sentence in the article is “In 2017, the Cat Classification Task Force of the IUCN Cat Specialist Group revised felid taxonomy in accordance with the 2015 two-subspecies proposal and recognised only P. t. tigris and P. t. sondaica.” This is cited to Kitchener et al. (2017). "A revised taxonomy of the Felidae: The final report of the Cat Classification Task Force of the IUCN Cat Specialist Group". The key statements on the Cat Group page are “"However, based on recent studies, only two tiger subspecies are proposed:" and "These inconsistencies in the number of proposed tiger subspecies are thought to partly be a result of the lack of genetic samples across the tiger range. Given the varied interpretations of data, the taxonomy of this species is currently under review by the IUCN SSC Cat Specialist Group." I’d recommend that the Wiki article reference this second statement. They certainly should not ditch the two subsp thing in favour of the larger set. Being published later doesn't automatically make it more valid, and the existence of genetic markers capable of distinguishing poulations doesn't necessarily mean those populations should be managed separately, which fundamentally is the point of subsp distinctions.
Note they give the two subsp thing the status of proposed, meaning it is under serious consideration, and don't give that weight to the larger set. I haven't spoken to Urs [one of the two Cat Group Chairs] on this since the noughties, but given ref 12 I suspect they lean towards the two subsp thing but are retaining the rest of the info, and not stating the larger set has been superseded, for political reasons - and to be cautious.
Also, a note about both Sarah’s background and the authority of the specialist group. Sarah was for a few years a member of the core group of the Cat Specialist Group. Per Sarah:
“it might be wise to follow the Cat Group’s lead; while there is no central, international formal authority on taxonomic revisions, IUCN Specialist Group positions on it do tend to be taken up over time, and this particular group is highly competent (most of them are). There is no other method of settling such disputes. It's about consensus, not enforcement.”
And with regard to her credentials for reviewing the article in general, she asked me to add this:
Please ensure your contacts are aware I have no recent information on status in the field, ecological info etc, nor have I ever been a field scientist. They should not consider that those aspects have been reviewed by an expert.)
I checked with Sarah, and she confirmed that she didn't mean that the 2018 studies finding six subspecies should not be mentioned, just that the Cat Group's position should be cited as the most authoritative current statement on the number of subspecies.
Mike Christie (
talk -
contribs -
library)
10:52, 14 June 2024 (UTC)reply
"It was found to have repeated sequences that parallel those in other cat genomes and "an appreciably conserved synteny"." I am not clear what this means - that the tiger's genome has diverged less than that of other cats from their common ancestor?
"Results of a phylogeographic study indicate that all living tigers have a common ancestor that lived between 108,000 and 72,000 years ago." No change needed, but it is interesting that this is similar to modern humans, but no subspecies of modern humans are recognised. I wonder whether tigers have diverged faster or humans are treated differently for cultural reasons.
Hmm, I don't know. But given that the tiger's generation length is way shorter than the human's, it may be plausible that it diverged faster.
BhagyaMani (
talk)
11:39, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Hybrids - perhaps mention that male hybrids are infertile and female ones fertile.
The question is anyway : WHY are hybrids under the section on Taxonomy ?? They are NOT a taxonomic unit. I suggest therefore to move this subsection under #Captivity, as they were ONLY bred in zoos to experiment.
BhagyaMani (
talk)
17:17, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
They are the union of two taxons and show how closely related the two parent species are. The section goes into detail on genetics.
LittleJerry (
talk)
23:17, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
"Records in Central Asia indicate that it occurred foremost in Tugay riverine forests and inhabited hilly and lowland forests in the Caucasus." "occurred foremost" is an odd expression. I would say that most lived in the Tugay riverine forests if that is what you mean.
"moved an average distance of 4.6 km (2.9 mi) per day". This seems very low. The source says that it is the only large population in mangrove forests, and that the tigers are reluctant to cross wide water channels. You say below that the home ranges in other reserves are much larger, in Sikhote-Alin Nature Reserve around 30 times larger. These factors make this population atypical. Are there no estimates for other populations?
"Though the female and male act amicably, females are more tense towards each other at a kill." This is clumsy and the first part repeats what you have just said. Maybe "Females are most tense with each other at a kill."
"Tigers will move around their ears to communicate with the white spots, particularly during aggressive encounters and between mothers and cubs". "communicate with the white spots" sounds odd. Maybe "display their white spots".
"During the Mughal Empire, tiger hunting became a sport; they were chased on horseback and killed with spears". This is wordy and seems to imply that tiger hunting as a sport was something new. Maybe "In the Mughal Empire, tigers were chased on horseback and killed with spears".
While it already has a good bunch of reviewers, it's such an important and long article that it probably needs as many as it can get, so I'll mark my spot for now.
FunkMonk (
talk)
20:50, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The range map and cladograms could be scaled up (with the upright parameter), per
MOS:IMGSIZE, as they are almost impossible to decipher at default size.
"The following tables are based on the classification of the species Panthera tigris provided in Mammal Species of the World,[9] and also reflect the classification recognised by the Cat Classification Task Force in 2017.[12]" You should make it clearer in this paragraph that what's shown reflects more traditional schemes, and that the edition of Mammals of the World you cite is from 2005, so quite long before any meaningful genetic work.
If there is a potentially valid six subspecies scheme, showing even more subspecies than that in the table seems misleading. The table is already extremely long, and I don't see any good reason other than completism to give subspecies that no one recognises today their own space, they should instead be covered under the entries of the potentially valid subspecies (one of the six possible ones) they belong to .
The DNA papers focused on the living subspecies, they did not invalidate the three extinct ones, which are still recognized in the literature.
LittleJerry (
talk)
22:46, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
You are inconsistent in whether you present people mentioned with nationality and occupation or not. A bit jarring when it's within the same sections.
Why are two cladograms needed when they show the tiger in the exact same position? Could just use one and save the space. Even better, use a code cladogram with links, can be requested at
WP:treereq.
"Captive tigers were bred with lions" Probably say "have been", now it's worded as if it only happened in the past. Tiger King at least showed there are still some around.
"However, as of 2023, at least two recent studies considered P. zdanskyi likely to be a synonym of P. palaeosinensis, noting that its proposed differences from that species fell within the range of individual variation." Not something that has to be done for this FAC, but this would suggest the two articles should be merged, no?
"Middle- to late-Pleistocene tiger fossils were found throughout China, Sumatra and Java." Have been found would sound more fitting, again sounds like it's only in the past.
"The tiger has a head-body length of 1.4–2.8 m (4.6–9.2 ft) with a 0.6–1.1 m (2.0–3.6 ft) tail and stands 0.8–1.1 m (2.6–3.6 ft) at the shoulder." This seems strange as a flat statement when the preceding sentence says tiger populations vary in size. So what are these measurements, an average, the maximum of the largest subspecies? Needs more precision.
The source just gives these measurements. The differences in size between populations is within those ranges.
"The extinct Bali tiger was even smaller." How much smaller? "Even" means little.
"The tiger is considered to be the largest living felid species. However, there is some debate over averages compared to the lion." This could be a single sentence, reads disjointed now.
Since multiple subspecies are covered, and a good part of the text is devoted to distinguishing them, it would be best to state which subspecies are depicted in image captions wherever available, for comparison.
"The three colour variants – nearly stripeless snow-white, white and golden" It seems from their respective articles that each variation is found in specific populations, which should be clarified here, otherwise it seems as if it can occur in all tiger populations.
LittleJerry (
talk)
21:06, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
File:Panthera tigris jacksoni at Parc des Félins 15.jpg - CC-BY (I will note here that
MOS:IMAGELOC advises not to flip images around in order to achieve facing towards the text. an image like File:2012-09-15 Tierpark Berlin 26 (cropped).jpg (CC-BY-SA) might be more appropriate here.
File:COLLECTIE TROPENMUSEUM Een groep mannen en kinderen poseert bij een pas geschoten tijger te Malingping in Bantam West-Java TMnr 10006636.jpg CC-BY-SA
File:Bronze Tiger Tally "Jie" with Gold Inlay from Tomb of Zhao Mo.jpg - CC0
File:Durga Mahisasuramardini.JPG -PD
All of the licenses check out, and all the images seem appropriate for the article. They do need alt-text, however, before I can approve this.
Generalissima (
talk) (it/she)
22:23, 14 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Ope! Did not see that you were done. Alt-text looks good now, but the File:Panthera tigris jacksoni at Parc des Félins 15.jpg still needs to be fixed to no longer be mirrored around.
Generalissima (
talk) (it/she)
20:10, 16 June 2024 (UTC)reply
"is the largest living cat species and a member of the genus Panthera native to Asia." Confusing to read and seems like it implies that it's the largest cat native to Asia. Maybe split it into two sentences instead: "is a species of cat native to Asia. It is the largest living cat and a member of the genus Panthera."
"Major reasons for this decline...medicinal purposes." The previous sentence refers to a decline in its range, which the latter two reasons mentioned here are not responsible for.
"subordinated the species under the genus" reads weirdly to me, I'd use "placed the species in the genus" instead.
"early 21st centuries, the Bengal" to "early 21st centuries, namely the Bengal"?
"The validity...Greater Sunda Islands." Run-on and difficult to understand.
"from a of low 5% to" typo.
"in between three and nine week intervals" to "at intervals of between three and nine weeks"?
"paid bounties for tigers since 1757" to "paid bounties for tigers beginning in 1757"?
The George V statistic is a factoid and not really DUE imo.
The articles linked in See Also seem very randomly thrown together. Why are we linking one random tiger attack from 2007 and Tiger King instead of other man-eaters that have eaten dozens of people or a cultural depiction of tigers that wasn't a 3 week phenom during COVID?
"At intervals of between three and nine weeks" is exactly how the source put it so no. Fixed the rest.
AryKun when you say "refs seem fine" did you also do a spotcheck?
LittleJerry (
talk)
21:54, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I see Mike Christie above has already pointed out some things about the sources. What makes Cat News a reliable source? It looks like we are working with major books and journals here. I notice inconsistent application of archives and identifiers like DOIs.
Jo-Jo Eumerus (
talk)
09:47, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Removed archiving of journal articles. Some articles don't have DOIs so we can't put them. Cat News is part of the IUCN Cat Specialist Group.
LittleJerry (
talk)
13:55, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
30 Can't really find "Indochinese tiger specimens are smaller with smaller skulls than specimens from India and appear to have darker fur with slightly narrower stripes" in there.
No concerns about the prose. I made minor edits to the article: feel free to revert.
In the "Sources", Mazzoni, Mario M. (1989) and Vaquer, José María; Eguia, Luciana; Carreras, Jesica (2018) have titles in all caps, which per
MOS:ALLCAPS should be in sentence case.
"Subduction of the Nazca Plate beneath the South American Plate" is said in the lede, but I think the article body says that the subduction is under South America, with no mention of it being a plate. Should this be more explicit in the body, maybe wikilinked in the body?
In the lede: "The formation of the APVC has been linked to the existence of a giant magmatic body in the crust of the Andes." From what I gather from the body, this magmatic body is the
Altiplano-Puna Magma Body. Should this be wikilinked in the lede? And should the lede specify that the body is in the Central Andies (and not underneath the whole thing?)
Panizos, Vilama, Cerro Guacha and last Uturuncu, which shows evidence of ongoing activity - which one does "which" refer to? If it's Uturuncu, then "the last of which" is better
Cerro Panizos[b] proper is a 5,228 metres (17,152 ft),[8] 5,360 metres (17,590 ft) or 5,494 metres (18,025 ft) high[9] lava dome in the southeastern semicircle - my lack of geology knowledge will show, but why are there three different heights here? Isn't this referring to the height of Cerro Panizos?
In para 1, all those references constantly interrupting sentences confuse me- I know that it's ok MoS-wise, I just prefer to keep them to the end. There are so many present here that I worry about others getting confused too
Ditto for some others, like the parentheses in para 3 of "Geology"
A branch of the Inca road system passed over the volcano, which features several archeological sites - what does which refer to? The road system as a whole? The volcano?
Numerous ignimbrites were emplaced between 25 and 1 million years ago - usually when I see a date range written out like this, the smaller period goes first and the larger period second
The last eruptions took place 271,000 and 85,000 years ago at Uturuncu and Cerro Chascon-Runtu Jarita complex, - and the Cerro Chascon-Runtu complex...?
Some of the sources have no translated title, like Guzmán et al and Mazzoni and others (I would add the titles myself if my Spanish was any good, but I trust you can since you cited them)
All good on everything, though I do have one comment on the refs. Is citing each individual part of a sentence differently a typical thing in geology articles? I ask this genuinely- in the biographies and other articles I've written, having multiple refs at the end of a sentence is just fine, and IMO makes it more readable.
MyCatIsAChonk (
talk) (
not me) (
also not me) (
still no)
11:19, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I don't think that's a question of article topic and more of who writes articles. I prefer this style b/c it's easier to verify (and correct) statements when you only have to check one source.
Jo-Jo Eumerus (
talk)
05:57, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
"it produced the large volcanic calderas Panizos, Vilama, Cerro Guacha and Uturuncu". The
Uturuncu article claims the latter as a stratovolcano rather than a caldera.
"Panizos is the source of two major ignimbrites, the older Cienago Ignimbrite and the more recent Panizos Ignimbrite." Shouldn't the comma be a colon?
"The volcano is a 40 kilometres (25 mi) wide" → 10-kilometre-wide (6.2 mi).
"surrounding a 10–15 kilometres (6.2–9.3 mi) wide lava dome semicircle" → 10–15-kilometre-wide (6.2–9.3 mi).
"Cerro Panizos proper is a 5,228 metres (17,152 ft), 5,360 metres (17,590 ft) or 5,494 metres (18,025 ft) high lava dome in the southeastern semicircle." → "5,228-metre (17,152 ft), 5,360-metre (17,590 ft) or 5,494-metre-high (18,025 ft)
"The other domes are the 5,480 metres (17,980 ft), 5,490 metres (18,010 ft) or 5,228 metres (17,152 ft) high Cerro Cuevas, 5,504 metres (18,058 ft) high Cerro Crucesnioc/Crucesnioj/El Volcán, 5,390 metres (17,680 ft) high Cerro Vicunahuasi west and 5,540 metres (18,180 ft) high Cerro La Ramada/Cerro Ramada north of Cerro Panizos." Same as above.
"The 5,158 metres (16,923 ft) high Limitayoc". Same as above.
Hydrology and human geography & history
"Panizos can be accessed through these valleys." Since no valleys are mentioned before this sentence it would probably be better if were reworded as "Panizos can be accessed through the valleys of these streams."
Climate, flora and fauna
"The region is a desert, with the only vegetation consisting of cushion plants, grasses and shrubs." It has already been stated at the beginning of this section that the region is a desert.
Geology
"reaching 6,000 metres (20,000 ft) height". I think you mean 6,000 metres (20,000 ft) in height.
"Smaller scale structures at Panizos may reflect north-south and eastsoutheast-westnorthwest trending lineaments". En dashes and "eastsoutheast" and "westnorthwest" should be "east-southeast" and "west-northwest".
Geochronology
"Volcanic activity began during the Jurassic". Volcanic activity of what? The Central Volcanic Zone?
"During the late Miocene, subduction under the Puna". It's not clear what "Puna" is referring to here. Is it the Altiplano-Puna high plateau or the Altiplano-Puna volcanic complex?
"Volcanic activity shifted east into the Puna". Same as above.
"In Bolivia, about 8-5 million years ago Kari-Kari was active, 8.4-6.4 million years ago Morococala, 8-5 million years ago Los Frailes". En dashes.
"Volcanism declined during the past 4 million years". Declined where?
Composition
"And orthopyroxene rare". I think you mean are rare.
"Gold and silver deposits are found on the volcano, and an occurrence of antimony-copper-uranium has been described at Paicone." Has mineral exploration been done at the volcano?
"a total volume >300 cubic kilometres (72 cu mi)". A total volume of more than 300 cubic kilometres (72 cu mi).
"The >650 cubic kilometres (160 cu mi) Panizos (or Panizos II) Ignimbrite". The more than 650-square-kilometre (250 sq mi) Panizos (or Panizos II) Ignimbrite.
"The Panizos ignimbrite consists of crystal-rich". Should ignimbrite be capitalized here since Panizos Ignimbrite appears to be the name of an ignimbrite deposit?
"The Panizos ignimbrite is one of several "super-eruptions" in the Central Andes". See above and may be "is" should be replaced with "represents" since ignimbrite deposits are not eruptions on their own.
"Both units of the Panizos ignimbrite". See above.
Going to note here for @
FAC coordinators:
that I'll be spottily present in the next few weeks, so they can't count on me for source reviews during this time frame. I'll try to keep up with this FAC.
Jo-Jo Eumerus (
talk)
19:45, 16 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Ahumada 2010: this is not "via ResearchGate" (no link is given), and has incomplete bibliographical data (missing volume/page numbers). Journal is here:
[31], and our article is at Número 13 -> Articulos ->
[32]. (Same as
[33]). The ISSN leads to a non-working search, but I guess that is beyond our control here.
Then why don't you link this as URL if it is your actual source? You are basically saying "hey, you can find this on ResearchGate but you'll have to search for it yourself".
Burgoa 2007: remove "1ed". Why OCLC instead of ISBN? Missing publisher and location.
Make more pretty. "[Geology sheet 2366-I / 2166-III Mina Pirquitas] (pdf) (Report). Boletín;269 (in Spanish)." looks messy. Is the series really called "Boletín;269"?
I assume you are talking about
this PDF? If you are citing this, it should have page numbers to complete the bibliographical data. And it actually seems to be a journal article, not a "report"? (
this journal).
Some have |hdl-access= though, so Guzman 2020, Kern 2016, Perkins 2016 and some others have little green open locks. Other URLs (DOIs mostly) do not have anything explaining access.
I would suggest to remove the via or add the link. From the documentation for the citation templates, I do not think this is how |via= is supposed to be used.
Servicio Geológico Minero Argentino 1996: there seems to be duplicated information in the citation, "(pdf) (Report) (in Spanish)" looks a bit odd, and the link does not go to a PDF. Add publisher location (Buenos Aires)? I understand which file you mean by "Map_PLV" but strictly speaking none of the files has this name.
Aye, the URL points to an intermediary page. I think the parentheses are a matter of the template. Is there a better title for the MAP_PLV?
Jo-Jo Eumerus (
talk)
19:52, 23 June 2024 (UTC)reply
You could get rid of |format=pdf to make it less visually jarring. I can't seem to access the page at the moment, so I don't have a good suggestion what to do about the file name.
Sources are either scientific journals / books / very few conferences or government map services, all fine in terms of reliability. For formatting issues see above. Happy to do spot checks on request. —
Kusma (
talk)
14:27, 22 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I won't hold it against the article that OAbot has randomly added some green unlock symbols. Other things are consistent now, so the source review is a pass. —
Kusma (
talk)
19:37, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
My overarching concern is with accessibility to the average reader getting into the article. At the minimum our articles should be basically comprehensible to someone without linking away, and I don't think this article manages that right now. For example, the article starts with <green>Cerro Panizos is a late Miocene-age shield-shaped volcano consisting of ignimbrites, two calderas (a depression formed by the collapse of a volcano) and a group of lava domes in the Potosi Department of Bolivia and the Jujuy Province of Argentina.</green> This is a really long, hard-to-parse sentence where you explain what calderas are, but not what ignimbrites are (which I would wager far fewer people would have any idea about.) Why not restructure to the shorter <green>Cerro Panizos is a late Miocene-age shield-shaped volcano spanning parts of Bolivia and Argentina.</green> or similar and then start giving a more detailed explanation of what it encompasses? (Also at first blush I'm not sure why the ignimbrites are the most important thing to mention, anyhow, as part of a volcanic feature.)
Once you're in the body, taking a few more words to explain stuff like ignimbrite (even just "ignimbrite, or volcanic rock") would do wonders.
The Geography/Geomorphology section is a pain to read with the referencing as it stands. Readers shouldn't have to wade through as many as six references or explanatory notes on top of the dense list of units of measurement to try and read things. Sticking all these in a
REFBUNDLE would be a much cleaner and clearer option.
"Volcanic activity in the region began during the Jurassic in the Cordillera de la Costa and has migrated eastward since then" Would be nice to clarify for people when the Jurassic Period was. Ditto for other time periods where the text isn't specifying a general time frame. At the very least, since the Miocene is getting constantly referenced, the time period should be clarified.
Susannah Hoffs is probably best known as a member of popular music group
the Bangles; she co-wrote their hit "
Eternal Flame". Her cinematic career has been less successful than her musical endeavours, which have included several solo albums and collaborations. In 2023 her novel This Bird Has Flown was well-received by critics. All suggestions for improvements to the article are appreciated. Regards,
BennyOnTheLoose (
talk)
16:13, 7 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Considering, as per the "Early life" section, her middle name is "Lee", why isn't this mentioned in the lead ("Susanna Hoffs (born January 17, 1959) is an American singer, guitarist," ==> "Susanna Lee Hoffs (born January 17, 1959) is an American singer, guitarist,")
Following tensions and resentment of Hoffs's perceived leadership, the band split in 1989, reformed in 1999 and released albums in 2003 and 2011. add a comma after "1999".
and formed the faux British 1960s band Ming Tea, with Mike Myers and Matthew Sweet comma unneeded
The trio made a number of club and TV... change "a number of" to something like numerous/several/many
I've changed this to "The trio played live at nightclubs in Los Angeles."; sources focus on club rather than TV appearances, but none that I've seen quantify it.
BennyOnTheLoose (
talk)
16:39, 17 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Per
MOS:ROLEBIO, we should only use her most notable roles, which I think is American singer-songwriter and actress and the other sundry roles can be listed in the infobox (which they already are).
and number one "Walk Like an Egyptian" -- and number one single
included the US top-ten hit -- we should avoid using terms like "hit"
and released albums in 2003 and 2011. -- perhaps the albums can be named here, as it appears that have wiki articles.
She is the couple's only daughter; they also have two sons John and Jesse -- I think a colon is needed after sons
and noted that while her mother was religious and kept kosher, -- and said that while her mother...
Her maternal grandfather Ralph Simon was a rabbi in Chicago and her maternal uncle Matthew Simon was rabbi emeritus -- Her maternal grandfather, Ralph Simon, was a rabbi in Chicago and her maternal uncle, Matthew Simon, was rabbi emeritus
she and then-boyfriend David Roback (a former schoolmate from Palisades High School) -- I think you can remove the parenthethical and use commas instead
She said that the first real performance was with the Bangles -- I would link this first instance of the Bangles, and remove the link from "The Bangs" section
the text has been amended by another editor; I've added the link in the Bangles section but let me know what you think.
Meanwhile, Annette Zilinskas joined as the bass player -- link
bass
In 1983, the group signed to Columbia Records -- the group was signed to Columbia Records
The Bangles released their first full album All Over the Place in 1984 on Columbia Records -- The Bangles released their first full album, All Over the Place, in 1984 on Columbia Records
Their breakthrough hit was the 1986 single "Manic Monday" -- I would probably use an alternative wording in place of "hit"
This single was released as a track on the album -- The single was released
and went double-platinum -- and was certified double-platinum
and was their first American gold record single -- unlink "gold record" per
MOS:DUPLINK
Dickerson wrote that "Manic Monday" and "Walk Like an Egyptian" "open the door to a new audience of female fans" -- suggest maybe paraphrasing "open the door to a new audience of female fans" instead.
Reworded, see what you think. I thought "appealing to women and girls" read better than "appealing to females" but there is probably a much better formulation.
BennyOnTheLoose (
talk)
11:00, 3 June 2024 (UTC)reply
In the video for "Walk Like an Egyptian" -- music video is more appropriate I think
Writing in the same paper a few months later, Richard Williams also compared Hoffs to Nicks, writing that Hoffs's "dark eyes -- maybe an alternate wording for the second instance of "writing" to avoid being repetitive
The Bangles had another US number two hit with a cover of Simon & Garfunkel's "A Hazy Shade of Winter" -- maybe had another US number two single instead of hit"
indicating "Generally favorable reviews". -- I think this can be in lower case
the album was rated as a "dud" by Christgau. -- Should be capitalized since it looks like the quotation that precedes it ends in period. Alternatively, we can use "It" was rated, since "the album" is mentioned in the previous sentence.
Before leaving Columbia Records, Hoffs recorded tracks with producer Matt Wallace for a follow-up album in 1993–94 – including some songs written by Mark Linkous of Sparklehorse – but the album was not released.[85] -- this standalone sentence could probably be merged into the paragraph it follows.
Billboard reviewed the single, -- Billboard should be in italics
Hoffs contributed vocals to "One Voice", the end credits song for the film A Dog Named Gucci (2016), a track also featuring Norah Jones, Aimee Mann, Lydia Loveless, Neko Case, Brian May and Kathryn Calder. "One Voice" was released on Record Store Day, April 16, 2016, with profits from the sale of the single going to benefit animal charities.[98] -- this can also be merged into the paragraph before it, since it is two sentence long.
Hoffs cowrote songs for the Go-Go's -- co-wrote songs for the Go-Go's (only because you used "co-written" with a hyphen in a previous instance)
about the book included Mark Weingarten in the Los Angeles Times, -- including Mark Weingarten
File:Hoffs-2006.jpg has a weird EXIF - was it cropped from another file? Image placement and ALT seem OK to me. Is AllMusic a reliable source?
The Jewish Journal of Greater Los Angeles can probably be linked. "Film: Susanna Hoffs Stars In 'Allnighter' by Her Mother" and "Mazzy Star: Shining Brightly" does it lack an online version? What is #23, #56, #77 and #95? I think in #31 "Forward" should be in italics. Is "Chris Hunt" a prominent interviewer? What makes ultimateclassicrock.com, Earwolf, RockCellar, Magnet Magazine, Vintage Guitar, Red Roses and Petrol and Stereogum a reliable source? #94 should probably not have Publicity.vanguardrecords.com as the name. #144 is there no better source than an Imgur image? What is #155? #164 is a search link, not really a good source for anything.
Jo-Jo Eumerus (
talk)
10:02, 9 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Hoffs-2006.jpg -Appears to be a different version of
File:Susanna_Hoffs_2006.jpg, which was uploaded in 2017 by the same user; the 2017 data has further structured data available. I'm not sure whether I need to do anything here.
AllMusic - I've replaced the instances where this site was used for biographical details. It's now only used for attributed reviews and uncontroversial info such as releases. (
WP:ALLMUSIC refers)
The Jewish Journal of Greater Los Angeles - link added.
"Film: Susanna Hoffs Stars In 'Allnighter' by Her Mother" - I only have access via the Wikipedia Library, which I don't think is a helpful link for the majority of readers.
"Mazzy Star: Shining Brightly" - added link to a clipping of the relevant page.
23 - I added "Official website for Stony Island movie" as the website. It's used to confirm what are I believe are uncontroversial details.
55, 56 - added The Times and it's publication location.
Amended the citation for Forward from publisher to website
Although
Chris Hunt's article is rather lacking in citations, I believe he is a suitable source. I couldn't find the original of Rage Magazine.
ultimateclassicrock.com - A
2023 disussion at RSN failed to attact interest.
Gary Graff has written for The New York Times, Billboard, The Boston Globe, The Cleveland Plain Dealer, and the San Francisco Chronicle so seems a suitable authority.
Earwolf - I'm not sure this is a suitable source. As I couldn't find info about her unreleased collaboration with Mark Linkous in other suitable sources, I removed it. The contribution to the Talking Heads album seems to have been as one of several backing vocalists on a single track, so I also removed that as not very significant.
Magnet - established as a print magazine in 1993. I don't have info about it's editorial team beyond the editor's name; there's a 2014
article in The Philadelphia Inquirer about it, though.
Vintage Guitar - has been published as a print magazine under that name since 1989. It has editorial oversight (see
[35])
''Red Roses and Petrol - is the official website for the movie, used to confirm what are I believe uncontroversial details.
Stereogum - has been running since 2002 and has editorial oversight (see
[36])
144 ARIA charts - removed; I don't think this was particularly valuable info for readers.
Hi, I just saw this. I'll review it. I'm a Hoffs mini-fan, including enjoying her novel and her covers recordings with Matthew Sweet, as well as being a very casual fan of the Bangles' work in general. I'm happy to see this nomination here. I'll try to start the review within the next day.
Moisejp (
talk)
14:47, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Adding comments as I go along:
In the paragraph about When You're a Boy, I was surprised to see "one upbeat assessment" (Globe and Mail review) then two negative reviews, then another positive review, then more negative reviews.
Moisejp (
talk)
07:01, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Update: I finished my first read-through (making some small edits along the way) and am expecting to support. I'll do another read-through hopefully in the next couple of days.
Moisejp (
talk)
07:00, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply