Support merge. I think that converts from FOO is supposed to model other religion converts categories. I'd be interested in anyone from the religion/athesist categories chiming in in case we're missing something.
Mason (
talk)
02:07, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep It's part of an overarching category sceme with a certain logic. Former Fooians can become converts to some other religion, e.g. Barism.
But if the new religion or lack thereof of the former Fooians cannot be determined, we cannot diffuse them to a subcategory called converts to Barism from Fooism.
Or, it may be that a former atheist or agnostic has embraced some form of theism, but not converted to a specific institutionalised or traditional form of it.
Category:Converts from atheism or agnosticism is a containercat that currently only allows us to diffuse former atheists and agnostics as converts to Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism. But of course, those are far from the only options on the 'market', so to speak.
I think this indeterminacy, as well as lack of options to diffuse to, is what requires these categories to remain separate. (Honestly, I understand where the idea to merge them comes from, and I had to think for quite some time before figuring out why I had a hunch that it might not be a good idea, and writing this down haha).
NLeeuw (
talk)
17:29, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
PS: A good example of a former Fooian whose current religion or lack thereof cannot be determined is
Wesley Snipes. Raised as a Christian, converted to Islam, then left Islam, and we don't know what he considers himself these days. The default assumption may be that he is therefore an atheist or agnostic these days, but no RS says that, so such a conclusion is OR.
Similarly, there has been quite a lot of controversy around
Antony Flew, a life-long atheist who appears to have embraced some form of theism just before he died and co-wrote a book titled There Is A God with a Christian. That Christian co-author has claimed that Flew converted to Christian theism just before he died, and that the book is "evidence" of Flew's wholehearted, sincere embrace of the Christian religion. Meanwhile, several atheists came out and called foul play, alleging that the co-author put words in Flew's mounth in order to construct a deathbed conversion story that is really convenient for propaganda purposes, and that Flew seems to have not embraced Christianity specifically, but a more general vague theism. Who can say? Flew is not there anymore now to explain. That's why he is in
Category:Former atheists and agnostics, but not in
Category:Converts to Christianity from atheism or agnosticism, as his religious views just prior to his death cannot be precisely determined, and thus diffused.
NLeeuw (
talk)
17:48, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Opposeor widen the scope of the merge. The category
Category:People by former religion has quite a few categories in it, including this one, of people by former religions or former non-religion. If we merge this one it would make sense to merge all of them. However, I feel like both categories are useful, as "Convert" categories show what they converted too, while the "Former" categories (which include the Converts as a subcat) are for those where the conversion "destination," for lack of a better word, is unknown.
Relinus (
talk)
15:28, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I do not understand the logic. Of course there are people who do not fit a "converts to" subcategory deeper in the tree. But how does it matter whether these people are in a general "converts" category or in a general "former" category? They are both general categories. In terms of widening the scope of the nomination, I am definitely planning to follow up with sibling categories if this goes ahead.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
17:59, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Because the discussion is on merging the convert/former categories into one category even though they are both needed for the reasons stated above, namely that, as you say, "there are people who do not fit a 'converts to' subcategory deeper in the tree" but who would still fit into the "former" category. Since every religion/non-religion has both a "former" category and a "convert" subcategory, removing one or both for only atheism/agnosticism doesn't make sense. You would need to do the same for all religions, ie. merging
Category:Converts from Buddhism and
Category:Former Buddhists, etc. (That was what I meant by widening the scope of the merge, however, I would actually oppose that too, since it doesn't make sense either.)
Relinus (
talk)
19:40, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Relinus: until your bracket we seem to agree. I already mentioned I will do a follow-up nomination for all religions if this goes ahead. I do not understand why within the brackets you suddenly jump to a different conclusion. Why doesn't that make sense either?
Marcocapelle (
talk)
05:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Non-defining for the only person in here. Extremely small category with only 1 person, who doesn't have any mention of Denmark–Norway in the text. I urge the category creator to stop making categories that only have one person in them.
Mason (
talk)
22:38, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Withdraw. The articles seem to be correct, and the creator of the category didn't seem to remove defining categories in the process.
Mason (
talk)
12:20, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Yet another Arab category that incorrectly conflates ethnicity with nationality. I am not opposed to the general notion of an Arab businesspeople category, but the current contents are only nationality subcategories and
Khadija bint Khuwaylid. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄)
22:08, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Effectively redundant. Will require manual addition of parent categories to the target, for it is a downmerge. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄)
22:02, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Last year, on May 7, 2023. A similar category "Video games with downloadable content" was deleted, and expansion packs are pretty much the same as downloadable content. In turn, this category is probably non-defining. Expansion packs are as common as DLC, and are essentially the same.
QuantumFoam66 (
talk)
20:28, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete I'd agree with the nominator - having an expansion pack does not always modify the base game, so it's hard to call it a defining feature. Categories should be defining aspects of the subject, not something tangential.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ)
09:43, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose because there are several other potentially non defining categories like "Video games with alternate versions" that I would have put under discussion in the same nomination or whatever.
QuantumFoam66 (
talk)
21:54, 12 July 2024 (UTC)reply
That is not a reason to oppose. Just discuss with nominator whether the other categories should be included in this nomination or else you can nominate them separately, then you can support both nominations.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
03:57, 13 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Whatever the difference is supposed to be between these two categories is beyond me. As far as I can tell, both categories are about people notable for writing works promoting the legitimacy of the sociological concept of brainwashing/mind control (which are more or less the same thing). This just seems like a slightly less neutral version of the other category made by a banned sock.
PARAKANYAA (
talk)
19:55, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Marcocapelle I disagree with this, because brainwashing is actually a sociological debate, not strictly related to cults, that had quite a lot of scientific input. Like half the people in the mind control category have no relation to NRMs/cults at all. Brainwashing as a concept has been discussed in relation to politics, kidnapping (see
Patty Hearst), etc. It is its own thing: while it is often brought up in relation to cults that's not its only relevance.
PARAKANYAA (
talk)
20:47, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Not necessary to subcategorize the target category this way. Also contains only 2 articles.
Gjs238 (
talk)
17:41, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Isn't there some benefit to categorising by ethnicity and nationality? Anecdotally, every Bedouin I've ever met would say that they're a Bedouin first and their nationality second. –
Joe (
talk)
06:38, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
But it exists now. And
Nyttend recently declined a CSD nom with this enlightening edit summary: We're no longer in the same situation as before — the recent "keep" for Jews by occupation (Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 26) means that there's recent support for categories of this type, and speedy-deleting just this one would be absurd. I don't have a dog in this fight, but wouldn't it make sense to establish a consensus for or against categories by ethnicity, rather than seeking to delete individual ones here and there? –
Joe (
talk)
11:02, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Retain I can list quite a few reasons for this: Bedouins have a distinct cultural, historical, and social identity within the Arab world. Merging their category into a general "Arab businesspeople" category could be seen as diluting the unique aspects of their cultural heritage. A specific category helps represent their unique challenges and contributions which might not be adequately covered. The Bedouin community has a history of nomadic trade and business practices that differ significantly from other Arab groups. A specific category preserves this historical context. Bedouins have distinct social structures and community dynamics that influence their business practices. Specific business strategies, success stories and challenges faced by Bedouin businesspeople can be studied with the help of a dedicated category. For cultural studies research, having a specific category can help in drawing more nuanced conclusions about the Bedouin way of life and their integration into modern economies. Furthermore, Wikipedia claims to be an inclusive platform representing diverse perspectives and communities. This category aligns with the principle of giving minority groups adequate representation. Merging the category marginalizes the Bedouin community within the larger Arab context.--
Simxaraba (
talk)
08:08, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Category:Video games based on Fantastic Four films
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Thoughts on GiantSnowman's proposal? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (
talk · he/they)
14:58, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: merge, sparsely populated category tree, many decade categories do not exist at all, not the least because exact dates are often unknown. It will become a lot easier to navigate between mosques articles when they are moved to century level.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
12:03, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep the project should not have been unilaterally redirected. It was tagged inactive, which is good enough, it can be linked to WikiProjects History/Geography etc in a hatnote. If we really want to emphasise it's status, it can be marked as defunct. All the best: RichFarmbrough12:13, 7 July 2024 (UTC).reply
No problem. The "inactive" status can be changed to, I think, defunct. I'm not sure that these should be lumped into History. Dates was more of a MoS project. Dacia also involves geography I would have thought. Colonialism could also be multidisciplinary. All the best: RichFarmbrough21:15, 8 July 2024 (UTC).reply
While MfD tends to like to keep everything under the sun, a category listing participants in a project that isn't active, with users that aren't active, is not useful for anyone. But you do you I guess. Also, batch nominations tend to always lead to a trainwreck.
Gonnym (
talk)
11:41, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:delete, the category consists of two very different sets of medieval ruling counts of Geneva, who are already in
Category:House of Geneva and for early modern members of the House of Savoy for whom this was merely an empty title.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
07:22, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep I don't believe the above summary to be quite right. Several members of the house of Savoy enjoyed practical control over the county and they are not going to be recorded in 'house of Geneva'. There is also the house of Thoire that controlled the county briefly in the late medieval period who presently lack articles but would be members of the category if they didn't. Moreover even after the city of Geneva slipped from their grasp (they maintained control of other parts of the county such as Annecy) the county remained prominent among their titulary (several of the sons of the dukes of Nemours were called the prince de Genevois until the death of their fathers) and is featured in the leading sentences of many of the articles.
sovietblobfish (
talk)
08:25, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I do agree some form of re-allocation needs to happen from
Jacques on down. Especially given the county was raised to a duchy by the duke of Savoy in 1564. Perhaps they should be migrated to a category called something like 'Prince de Genevois' or 'Prince of the Genevois'.
sovietblobfish (
talk)
08:54, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Of course members of the house of Savoy enjoyed practical control over the county because it was part of the
Savoyard state and the rulers of the latter were the ones enjoying practical control.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
11:09, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
At times yes, however the county (-1564 duchy) was under the authority of the cadet branch Savoie-Nemours for the majority of the 16th century and parts of the 17th century, and they were primarily French princes.
Irrespective of whether they or the dukes of Savoy enjoyed practical control, this surely challenges the notion that it was an 'empty title' and it is therefore meaningful to keep it.
sovietblobfish (
talk)
12:43, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: This seems like it could plausibly renamed, refocused, or deleted. Obviously it's a coherent group, but is it an encyclopedic one as it stands?
Remsense诉03:14, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Read the Encyclopedia of the Founders and Builders of Israel by David Tidhar. This category is a gold mine of information. It will help numerous people interested in studying the development of the state of Israel. These are the pioneers.
Dag21902190 (
talk)
03:19, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
A lot of the issue is that "pioneer" is generally a term of adulation. I think at a bare minimum, the name of the category needs to be changed in order to conform with our policy concerning
neutral point of view.
Remsense诉03:22, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Pioneer has a definition, and just like the pioneers of America, these are the pioneers of Israel. It is not a term of adulation. It is a fact.
Dag21902190 (
talk)
04:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Could you cleanly define it in one sentence for me? Categories are meant to be fairly self-evident: if you need to write an article to fully flesh out your definition, it might not be a good category. It seems like you want to write a list article, which would need to stand up to our policies about verifiability, notability and neutral point of view. Your present prose does not, it is very much adulatory.
Remsense诉04:14, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
“Pioneers” are people who are among the first to explore or settle what becomes a new country or area. For example, a colonist/colonizer. Just because you interpret the term as adulation, doesn’t make it adulation. Best regards. I deleted the additional summary because of what you said.
Dag21902190 (
talk)
04:36, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Just because you interpret the term as adulation, doesn’t make it adulation
Unfortunately that tends to be how language works, as we're talking about the connotations of language.
I don't quite understand your definition in any case, as none of the people in the category were among the first to explore or settle what is now Israel.
Remsense诉09:32, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Do you know what a colonizer is? What do we call the first Europeans to settle and develop America? Were they the first people to explore or settle America? Obviously they weren’t. You cannot take a long-used term, and pretend it can’t be applied to the very thing it defines. I hate to break it to you, but you sound like an anti-Israel shill. I understand if English isn’t your first language, but just because you interpret the word “pioneer” as adulation, doesn’t mean it should be changed.
Dag21902190 (
talk)
13:53, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
“Pioneers” are people who are among the first to explore or settle what becomes a new country or area.
None of the people in the category were among the first to explore or settle what is now Israel. Your definition doesn't work, is my point.
just because you interpret the word “pioneer” as adulation, doesn’t mean it should be changed.
Correct: it should be changed because it's not just me. As a verb, pioneer absolutely has distinctly positive connotations; some related, more neutral verbs are colonize, settle, construct, and establish. The interplanetary space probe was named Pioneer 6 and not Colonizer 6 or Establisher 6 for a reason, I'm afraid.
Remsense诉20:57, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
It’s very clear that you don’t want the word pioneer being used because you don’t view the early settlers in a positive light. I will maintain, despite your attempt to bring in the naming of a satellite, that pioneer is the correct word to be used. American pioneers weren’t the first to settle America, yet they are defined as pioneers. All you have to do is search up the definition of pioneer on Google, and the first two examples of synonyms are “colonist” and “colonizer”. Your interpretation of the English language does not, and should not, mean you can redefine a word, because you view it as adulation.
Dag21902190 (
talk)
21:07, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
American pioneers weren’t the first to settle America, yet they are defined as pioneers
There's been plenty of ink spilled about how "pioneer" is also wrong in an American context for exactly the same reason. Academic use sharply declined as a result.
I also shouldn't have to ask you not to accuse me of behaving in bad faith without a lick of evidence, as I've given you no reason to assume my motives are anything but what I've already said they are: Wikipedia has content policies.
Remsense诉20:27, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Why are you misleading people? That is just not true. What’s the real reason for you to want to delete my work? This is the only comprehensive list of its kind. To want to delete this is a spit in the face, and really nonsensical. It has taken hours of work, and is a treasure trove of pioneers.
Dag21902190 (
talk)
13:56, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
You're not entitled to host your work on Wikipedia because you put a lot of work into it, unfortunately. We have content policies.
Remsense诉16:29, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
That is extremely disingenuous, and anyone who reads this will see it the same way. Denying the benefits of a category like this is just blatant anti-Israel bias.
Dag21902190 (
talk)
16:52, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Now do me a favor and look at the other 200 people on the list. It is not exclusive to Ashkenazi Jews from Ottoman Palestine. To say so would be misleading. Care to explain why you are attacking this category so hard?
Dag21902190 (
talk)
20:07, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Case in point would be that 7 of the following 8 people on the list (which you purposely didn’t bring up; choosing to stop at the first 8) are not in the category “Ashkenazi Jews from Ottoman Palestine” because it doesn’t apply to them. Although they are still pioneers. What’a so hard to understand about that? This is a unique category, different any of the existing categories.
Dag21902190 (
talk)
20:13, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment Can the scope be simply defined first, before we consider if the category should be retitled, merged, or deleted? I think an issue with the term "pioneer" here is that it can be unclear and may be applied to many individuals that aren't intended.
Kingsif (
talk)
11:54, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
And more specifically, can we establish which Jews from Ottoman Palestine and Mandatory Palestine should not be regarded as pioneers? I don't think we can establish that, but let's see what the discussion brings us.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
20:02, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Fair point, I would figure that anyone who settled the land between the first Aliyah and the fifth Aliyah should be considered pioneers. However, I think they have to had stayed in the region, developing the budding country. What do you think?
Dag21902190 (
talk)
21:29, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Everyone here needs to take a deep breath. This is Wikipedia. Accusing people of anti-XYZ bias or destroying hard work is unproductive and does nothing to strengthen your point. With that out of the way, there is clear consensus that this category needs to change. Whether that change is in the form of deletion or not is to be determined (hence relisting), but if it is kept we need a defined scoped and potentially a better name. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (
talk · he/they)
05:05, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
What you fail to recognise is the benefit of creating more-specific categories. There is clearly something to gain by breaking up the immigration into the different Aliyot. It makes research more easy, and more makingful. It also puts these notable figures into the context of their immigration. Different Aliyot had different success levels, which I am sure impacted the development of these people. Regardless, it just seems to be an attempt to delete something specific, in order to overgeneralise and keep them hidden in a broad list of thousands of people. I’m trying to make it easier for people to do research on the topic.
Dag21902190 (
talk)
14:33, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
My apologies, I got confused since you have multiple fronts opened against me. That itself is testament to your targeting.
Thanks, Joe Shmo. I hope there are other people with your clarity of mind. I know there are, but they must not be able to see this discussion.
Dag21902190 (
talk)
16:19, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Triple merge. The important thing is that the Almohad caliph category includes these 14 entries and no others, and dividing that category further by 2 centuries doesn't seem necessary. JoeJShmo💌10:12, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Donating to a political party is rarely if ever defining. There is only one article in the category. (
t ·
c) buidhe01:42, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:downmerge, redundant category layer, there isn't any content here that doesn't fall under Portuguese Mozambique.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
19:01, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Fayenatic london: Portuguese Angola and Portuguese Mozambique started off as just some coastal settlements and only late in the 19th century they expanded to what is currently Angola and Mozambique. The most extreme example is
Mbunda Kingdom which was conquered by the Portuguese no earlier than 1917. It is comparable to
Category:19th century in India which we should not want to be a subcategory of
Category:British India. I think India is in principle a good example of how things should be done, except Angola and Mozambique only have a fraction of the number of articles of India.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
02:24, 2 July 2024 (UTC)reply
OK, I think I understand how you distinguish between those parents now. But I am not persuaded by the India hierarchy as a model rather than Angola. India also has sub-hierarchies for
French,
Dutch and
Portuguese India. There is no such ambiguity between colonial powers for Mozambique.
@
Fayenatic london: in my defense, I found the Indian tree only after the above discussion. But more importantly, I have no issue with calling 20th-century categories just "Mozambique" instead of "Portuguese Mozambique" because they geograhically coincide in the 20th century. In addition, I would propose merging all 19th-century (sub)categories and earlier to just
Category:History of Portuguese Mozambique,
Category:Establishments in Portuguese Mozambique and
Category:Disestablishments in Portuguese Mozambique, and to centuries, decades and years in Africa. That is of course, assuming that articles about events in centuries, decades and years refer to Portuguese Mozambique (to be checked). So we would end up with main categories Portuguese Mozambique, 20th century in Mozambique and 21st century in Mozambique (with some overlap between Portuguese and 20th century).
Marcocapelle (
talk)
21:48, 2 July 2024 (UTC)reply