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Category:Professors of the University of Cambridge
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Either of or at in this context seems like natural English to me. However, the title of nearly all chairs is professor of subject – whereas at only works for institutions. I think there is (small, but non-trivial) value in making a visual distinction between scholars of a subject, and scholars at an institution. It also avoids the risk of ambiguity, e.g.
Category:Historians of the University of Oxford. I don't think it's necessary to rename existing
Category:Academics of the University of Cambridge and other similar categories, because Academics of [subject] isn't a form that I've ever encountered.
There isn't a lot of existing consistency wrt to professor and professorship categories. To the extent there is a pattern, it seems to be:
at is used exclusively for institutions;
of is used for the specific subject of a single chair, or for a set of related chairs, and is also commonly used to indicate institution (e.g. the formula Academics of [institution] is very common, it's the format of the category I'm trying to diffuse) or nation.
in is used for the broader subject areas of multiple chairs, and rarely for institutions;
Oppose proposed name. The reason is that it significantly broadens the scope of
Category:Academics of the University of Cambridge from people employed as academic staff (readers, lecturers, and professors) to anyone associated with Cambridge in that field (alumni, research fellows, etc). This leaves us with no category for the academic staff themselves, which is how we categorize all academics elsewhere. If we are going to diffuse
Category:Academics of the University of Cambridge into field-based subcategories, we need those subcategory names to clearly indicate that the people in them should only be the academic staff. For the same reason, the current names are not good, and if a better name cannot be found I would instead propose that we upmerge to
Category:Academics of the University of Cambridge and give up this diffusion experiment as a bad idea. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
00:21, 11 May 2022 (UTC)reply
On reflection, you are right about the ambiguity of the names of the subcategories of
Category:Academics of the University of Cambridge by field—both the ones I inherited and the ones I created—because the main nouns (e.g. classical scholars) don’t indicate academic staff. These should be changed or removed, as you say.
I was only nominating them incidentally as a consequence of the proposal for professors. I suggest removing them from this proposal, to concentrate it on the at for institution/of for subject suggestion. I’m not at all opposed to up-merging the academics-by-field subcategories if better names can’t be found.
Is the "Professors in/at" category intended for individual professors, or for named professorships? We don't usually categorize academics by rank, and the category for all academics would be
Category:Academics of the University of Cambridge. Maybe it should be a
Wikipedia:Container category? And maybe it should have a more specific title like "Named professorships of..."? In any case, the standard for UK academic categorization is "Category:Academics of ...", not "at". The UK academic categorization is already markedly idiosyncratic (everywhere else, we use "Category:University of X faculty"). I don't see why you are trying to make Cambridge's categories even more sui generis by using "at" instead of "of" for them. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
07:17, 11 May 2022 (UTC)reply
There are several different points you’ve raised.
[Institution] faculty is (I think) American English, but (again I think) becoming more common in British English. I don’t particularly mind either way, [Institution] faculty would be fine: there’s no ambiguity or risk of confusion either way, it seems arbitrary to me.
This particular university historically doesn’t make a distinction between named chairs and personal professorships: they’re all officers listed out in full in the statutes, every single one. Frequently they expire after a single term (this includes chairs named after benefactors), but often single-tenure creations are renewed, some are established “in perpetuity" (but may nor may not last very long), and very frequently single-tenure chairs expire but are then revived under the same name. Making a clear distinction supported by sources would be a challenge. That said, I would be happy if it were a container category for something like "professorships held by more than one person" if that’s what you require.
I’m (explicitly – it’s there in my rationale text) not suggesting changing Academics of to Academics at where it already exists, because (i) “academics of [subject]” is not a construction I’ve encountered so there's no subject/institution difference to indicate and (ii) there's an existing norm.
The reasons for what I am requesting are:
Consistency – I'm not trying to make Cambridge's categories even more sui generis, which seems a little ungenerous. I found it with subject, department and professor-related categories of no coherent format, and with nearly 1,000 biography articles in
Category:Academics of the University of Cambridge which has a notice on it requesting diffusion. I'm trying to bring a little structure to these articles, and to do as the little notice requested. And they can't all go in the fellowship subcategories – not all academics have a college.
Please see the work I did above on demonstrating that no existing convention exists for distinguishing subjects/institutions of professors/professorships on Wikipedia, though many attempts at distinguishing between subjects and institutions have been attempted. In the real world (see
ngram) at seems more prevalent, as it does somewhat within Wikipedia, though there is no uniformity.
To the extent that Cambridge (and Oxford and Dublin etc.) are more specifically categorised than other Universities, that's because of how old they are and how many biographies there are. For Cam, there's 800 years of it, and about 4000 biographies of its academics, so more specific categorisation for that big tub of articles is natural. For medieval/early modern academics (which I am much more interested in than the 21st century CV-like ones), the concept of employed faculty breaks down completely anyway...
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Category:Kamby Lamas of Tuva
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Weak oppose. SMALLCAT requires that the category have "no potential for growth", which seems like a stretch here: the holders of this office are likely notable, as evidenced by the facts that all are redlinked, that several have ru-wiki articles, and that the references section at
Kamby Lama of Tuva suggests that holders of this office receive not-insubstantial press coverage. Looking at the examples at
WP:SMALLCAT, this seems much more analogous to "a category for holders of a notable political office" than to
Category:Catalan-speaking countries. (I am not
watching this page, so please
ping me if you want my attention.)
Extraordinary Writ (
talk)
00:25, 3 June 2022 (UTC)reply
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Category:Yadav family of Uttar Pradesh
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Keep, I think – most of the people in these categories seem to be pretty closely related to each other, so I think this is a valid family category and not an invalid caste category. I suggest removing articles that are not directly about members of these families, e.g.
All-India Yadav Mahasabha, to keep this from becoming a
WP:OCASSOC problem. (I am not
watching this page, so please
ping me if you want my attention.)
Extraordinary Writ (
talk)
00:06, 3 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Delete Created in a manner to circumvent our long standing consensus both at CfD and at WP:IN. Also, this is not a defining characteristic, will we then have "Smith family of Rhode Island" and then add Rhode Island resident Smiths to it? —
SpacemanSpiff09:06, 10 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Adding on to why it needs to be more specific, I think, is because
Yadav indeed is a caste and there are countless Yadavs and countless Yadav political families in the said states. It is, in turn, too broad —
DaxServer (
t ·
m ·
c)
08:46, 11 June 2022 (UTC)reply
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Category:Foot percussion
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Keep. The term is less common than hand percussion just because these instruments are less common, not generally appearing in a
symphony orchestra for example. I get over 80,000 ghits for foot percussion, and all of the first few pages look relevant, so the claim that it's Not a popular term is dubious. And none of these ghits refer to
tap dance or
clogging. And perhaps most interesting of all, nor do our articles on either of those topics currently refer to the term foot percussionat all, which is strange if "foot percussion" is often a term reserved for
tap dancing/
clogging. So I'm very curious to see any evidence that might support the rationale above... the claims that are its basis seem to both be quite simply false.
Andrewa (
talk)
19:58, 16 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Sure, here's some evidence that foot percussion is generally used to refer to rhythmic dancing styles:
[1],
[2],
[3],
[4],
[5], and so much more. I'm not saying that the term does not exist to describe actual instruments, but I have found no reputable source that actually uses it. It's mostly just a term used by guitarists to describe the extra instruments they may play. (I know Meinl markets some foot tambourines and shakers as "foot percussion", but that's not enough.) Furthermore, I have yet to come across anyone describe the hi-hat and bass drum as "foot percussion". Our categories need to be verifiable, too.
No, that is evidence that it is sometimesused to refer to rhythmic dancing styles. Not generally as you claimed.
And you can't have it both ways. If you are not saying that the term does not exist to describe actual instruments, then why are you asking for evidence that it is? I can provide such but it seems pointless if you are conceding the point anyway.
Are you by the silence conceding that your claim that it's not a popular term is also false? How many relevant ghits did you get? I got more than 80,000 as I said above.
Andrewa (
talk)
09:27, 17 May 2022 (UTC)reply
I never asked for proof that the term exists. I said it's not a "popular term" in my original post, not that it isn't real. However, I did ask for sources calling certain instruments, like the bass drum, as such. We go off of verifiable sources, not on what Google can muster up. As far as I can find, no percussion-specific book uses the term (that's not to say it doesn't have a colloquial use).
Why? I Ask (
talk)
15:48, 17 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Did you think of googling "foot percussion" "bass drum"? I get more than 15000 ghits. Isn't that popular enough for you?
Ah, you don't like Google. That's a pity. It's a very useful resource. It's not a substitute for reliable sources, but it is very useful in finding them, and provides a very useful indication (not proof) of the popularity and common use of a term.
Andrewa (
talk)
18:02, 17 May 2022 (UTC)reply
That page you shared really only shows Meinl, which I mentioned uses the term. And I do like Google. However when you wade through the results, you find that most of it is not really related.
Why? I Ask (
talk)
18:22, 17 May 2022 (UTC)reply
I didn't find that at all. But you did find some results there that were related, is that correct? Some that called the drum kit bass drum foot percussion? Isn't that enough?
Andrewa (
talk)
00:26, 18 May 2022 (UTC)reply
No, I did not find a source calling a bass drum a type of foot percussion. I meant that only some of the several thousand results are actually talking about percussion instruments (and are decent sources).
Why? I Ask (
talk)
16:18, 20 May 2022 (UTC)reply
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Category:Percussion instruments used in worship
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Can you be specific? The category description reads in part Any instrument can be used to accompany worship. The instruments in this category have a role that is specific to this particular instrument. That is to say, these instruments each have a particular liturgical meaning. If there are instruments currently in the category that you think fail this test, then yes, they should be removed... but I strongly suggest that you discuss those specific cases before doing it.
Andrewa (
talk)
19:50, 16 May 2022 (UTC)reply
I note that you have not replied to this. It seems basic to your rationale. What instrument, if any, is in this category yet does not have a role in worship that is specific to this particular instrument?
Andrewa (
talk)
00:09, 18 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Keep. According to
Wikipedia:Categorization, The central goal of the category system is to provide navigational links to Wikipedia pages in a hierarchy of categories which readers, knowing essential—defining—characteristics of a topic, can browse and quickly find sets of pages on topics that are defined by those characteristics. This category provides exactly that. See comment above about current members.
Andrewa (
talk)
19:50, 16 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Most instruments have, at some point, been used in a religious sense. You, as a worship drummer, are obviously using the drum set for a specific liturgical purpose (i.e., modern
Christian rock, an entirely new worship tradition). Therefore, why not add the drum set? The issue is that nearly every instrument has formed an important part in religious music. We don't have a similar category for brass (like the sackbut) or woodwinds (like the shenai) even though they are important in religion, and we shouldn't. Because every instrument made before the 1800s can pretty much fit this type of category.
Why? I Ask (
talk)
03:20, 17 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Lots there. No, the drum sets I use in worship do not have a
liturgical function. They are just being used as musical instruments. You don't seem to understand the term liturgical. The coloured
stole that my minister wears to indicate the season of the church year has a liturgical function. It has a specific meaning. The tie he wears just because he likes it doesn't. It is in a sense being used in worship, as his appearance is an important part of the conduct of the service. But it has no liturgical function.
The roof that keeps the rain out is important for that reason, but that role does not give the roof a liturgical function.
Yes, wind instruments have been used liturgically and still are, in Australia particularly by followers of
Messianic Judaism and there are probably other traditions that use them. We could perhaps have a category for them. I don't think we should necessarily have one specifically for brass instruments, unless they turn out to be more common than I think.
No, it's not the case that every instrument made before the 1800s can pretty much fit this type of category. As I said, that appears to be the case only because you seem to have no concept of liturgy.
But why do you say before the 1800s? The drum set I use was developed in the 20th century, largely by Gene Krupa, but Louis Belson and many others had roles as well. The point is, it didn't exist in its current form in 1900. The
Moog and
Farfisa electronic keyboards others have used, the
precision bass I sometimes play, the
Mesa Boogie amplifier I have occasionally used... all post 1800s. All are used in some churches these days. But not liturgically as far as I know. Have you seen them used liturgically?
Andrewa (
talk)
07:46, 17 May 2022 (UTC)reply
There are obviously modern instruments that fit the description, but not all. And I wonder what you define as having a liturgical function. Oxford defines it as "a form or formulary according to which public religious worship, especially Christian worship, is conducted". The drum set used in modern church services is essential to the worship music being played. The tie, not so much. The drum set is so popular that there are even several books about playing drums in church. Furthermore, basically all the instruments that were developed before the 1800s have a religious purpose. The trumpets of Jericho, the gamelan ensembles of Indonesia, the bagpipes of British Catholicism, and so on.
Why? I Ask (
talk)
15:35, 17 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Progress. Thanks for a vigorous and I think helpful discussion.
You say I wonder what you define as having a liturgical function. So you should! You say The drum set used in modern church services is essential to the worship music being played. It is an important part of that style of music, true. But the style of the music has no liturgical function, in that pieces of music in other styles could be used with identical liturgical function, and are in other churches, or even in my case in other services in the same church. So the drum kit, and other features of that style, are very helpful in worship, but that's because the congregation like that style, not because that style has any specific religious significance. The bell that announces specific parts of the Mass, on the other hand, can't be replaced by another instrument. It has a liturgical significance and function.
Do you begin to understand liturgical function? That is the key issue here. The category you want deleted is for percussion instruments that have a distinctive liturgical function. And it's a valid category. (It may not on reflection be the best name for it but I think it probably is, all things considered. Those looking for articles on instruments of this usage will know what it means. We can't have the whole category description in the category name.)
Exactly what term is the OED defining as a form or formulary according to which public religious worship, especially Christian worship, is conducted? And what do you think form or formulary means here?
Andrewa (
talk)
17:42, 17 May 2022 (UTC)reply
The
form (religion) article explicitly states: it include[s] the products of what has, perhaps cynically, been called "Christian entrepreneurship", such as contemporary Christian music. However, we're getting off track discussing the merits of whether or not the drum set counts. This category is not helpful one either way, since anyone looking for percussion instrument used in religion will be misinformed that there is only a narrow subset. Obviously since we are at an impasse, a third opinion is necessary.
Why? I Ask (
talk)
18:42, 17 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Agree that we are getting off the track. The suggestion that the drum kit is an instrument that has a role in worship that qualifies it for this category was yours. I think that reflects a misunderstanding on your part of the purpose of this category, and explains very well why you think the category has no purpose. That's why it is off the track. So it is important that we clear that up, don't you think?
Whether the name of the category risks that anyone looking for percussion instrument used in religion will be misinformed that there is only a narrow subset is another issue. That assumes that they will not read the category description I think.
You don't seem to have answered my question as to which entry in the OED you were citing. Without that it's hard to say whether the quote you gave is relevant. But I suspect not.
The term "liturgical" is what the OED was defining. What is the purpose of this category? The drum set is a "percussion instrument used in worship". If you need to explain the category on the page, then it's not a good category.
Why? I Ask (
talk)
16:23, 20 May 2022 (UTC)reply
That is true, but is it really
overcategorization? The liturgical significance of these instruments is a very interesting thing about them IMO. In the case of the semantron (and I suspect others) it would probably not even exist otherwise. It is of course less interesting to those never involved in formal worship, as I think is demonstrated above. But Wikipedia is for all readers.
Andrewa (
talk)
23:09, 18 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Delete -- The article claims to be for those specifically used in worship, but the headnote admits that any instrument can be so used. Accordingly worship is not a defining characteristic of most of them.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
16:38, 12 June 2022 (UTC)reply
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Category:Scottish television task force members
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Category:Neglected tropical diseases
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Nominator's rationale: It's very unclear what the purpose of this category is. Possibilities include:
A specific list of 13 diseases, as described in the category header. But there are more than 13 elements in this category and that interpretation would fail
WP:OC#Published list.
Any tropical disease other than, to quote from the main article, the "big three" infectious diseases (
HIV/AIDS,
tuberculosis, and
malaria), which generally receive greater treatment and research funding. In this interpretation it fails
WP:OCMISC.
Diseases considered by Wikipedia editors to be neglected. In that interpretation it fails
WP:SUBJECTIVECAT.
Delete. Far too vague as a basis for a category. Neglected by whom? When?
Cholera for example, may not get much attention now, but it certainly did in the past.
Rathfelder (
talk)
21:27, 7 June 2022 (UTC)reply
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Wikipedians who use the web without a browser
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Nominator's rationale (1) Fails
WP:USERCAT for lacking any discernible collaborative function (2) Encouraging users to reveal their IP address publicly is a bad idea (3) This entire forest of 9 categories contains only one category, which only the creator. (There were also a few other parts of this tree that were speedy deleted, and one that had to be oversighted)
* Pppery *it has begun...13:41, 7 June 2022 (UTC)reply
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Category:Songs from Cars (franchise)
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Mass media in Russia by city
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Nominator's rationale: merge per
WP:SMALLCAT, in many cases there is but a single newspaper article per city, occasionally 2-4 articles. Only one merge target has been specified, because the articles are already in a Russian newspapers category.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
05:33, 7 June 2022 (UTC)reply
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