The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:merge/delete per nom. Under the protection policy, we cannot creation-protect pages for this reason, but future creations could be deleted per this CfD result without need for an additional nomination. ~
Rob13Talk02:57, 4 March 2019 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale. These categories are anachronisms.
Northern Ireland was creaed in 1921. The concept of
Northern Ireland as a defined area distinct from Ulster dates only from the period after the introduction in 1912 of the
Third Home Rule Bill. The precise shape of its extent as the six counties emerged only later in that decade, and was not formally defined until
1920.
Support Nominator - Northern Ireland didn't exist until 1921, it's not possible for anything 19th century or before to deal with a country that didn't exist then, they're all covered by the relevant from/in Ireland categories.
Canterbury Tailtalk01:18, 10 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Poland existed from the 10th century. It became independent again in 1918, which means that it hadn't ceased to exist after the partition of 1795. The parallel with Northern Ireland is... nonexistent, really.
Scolaire (
talk)
17:20, 12 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Countries like Poland, which have existed with various names and with various geographical boundaries over centuries, are a much more difficult problem. Northern Ireland is relatively easy to define in both time and space.
Rathfelder (
talk)
20:41, 12 January 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Laurel Lodged: as others have noted, Poland existed in various forms the 10th century onwards. However, Northern Ireland was not even a concept before partition was added to the political menu in the 1910s.
Oppose, you want to delete the Northern Ireland categories because they are stupid, so you are going to make a mistake for the rest of us. Ireland existed before it had a name and Wikipedia has supported that position. Now be kind. You are talking about removing links, not enhancing the distribution of information. Not even a bit. You are talking about what is stupid and who is to blame from the wider world. Talk about what is clever and how the world is going to fix it. What is important first is not the title. ~
R.
T.
G13:18, 3 February 2019 (UTC)reply
Support. Unlike Poland, Northern Ireland wasn't a specific concept until the last 100 years, as the nominator notes. It's perhaps reasonable to have a category for 19th-century Ulstermen, since Ulster existed then and had definable boundaries, but far northeastern
Monaghan and far southwestern
Armagh shared a regional/provincial identity.
Nyttend backup (
talk)
23:25, 1 March 2019 (UTC)reply
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Category:17th-century academics
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Category:Scandals in Northern Ireland
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Nominator's rationale: This falls under
WP:SMALLCAT. This category only contains a link to the category scandals in Northern Ireland. The controversies in the United Kingdom is quite small already, so it doesn't need to be split into more categories.
CircleGirl (
talk)
09:50, 9 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep, first as part of wider scheme, & secondly as the 2 child abuse articles aren't primarily "political", & should be moved up tio this category, imo.
Johnbod (
talk)
01:09, 10 January 2019 (UTC)reply
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Category:Catholic Church in Rodrigues
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Merge per nom. This is part of a set of micro-categories appearing in by country categories for small dependent islands that have never been a country in any way. More to clean...
Place Clichy (
talk)
19:30, 22 January 2019 (UTC)reply
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Category:Buddhism in Seoul
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Weak oppose.
WP:SMALLCAT is for small categories that have no likelihood of expansion. With a quick search I found two more articles which belonged in this category, and more are likely. Also it has a fairly substantial subcategory for which this would be a more appropriate parent than either of its other parent categories.
Grutness...wha?12:15, 11 January 2019 (UTC)reply
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Category:Jewish Roman Empire politicians
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Nominator's rationale: Textbook
SMALLCAT. Category contains one member. The subject relates to a defunct country. Needless to say, the number of notable Jewish Roman Empire politicians is not expected to increase anytime soon. —Mr. Guye (
talk) (
contribs)
06:40, 9 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Oppose, at least until better reasons are given. The fact that the Roman Empire no longer exists may mean that there won't be any new Jewish politicians, but it doesn't follow from that that the category is incapable of expansion. It's not clear from the nomination, or the article, that Ti. Julius Alexander was the only Jew to enter the Roman political hierarchy, who would be deserving of an article on Wikipedia. All we know is that he's the only one who's been included in this category to date. I'm not saying that there were others; in fact I wasn't aware of him. But until someone has undertaken reasonable efforts to ascertain if this category is incapable of expansion—for example, by investigating whether any scholarly literature reveals other Roman politicians of Jewish descent—this nomination seems to be ill-considered. Small categories should be deleted if they have little utility, not because they haven't been used much yet. After all, it's not like we desperately need to clear away unused data in order to make room for something else.
P Aculeius (
talk)
13:48, 9 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Support, (a) the category does not contribute to easy navigation to similar articles, because there aren't any similar articles; (b) no evidence is given why this category has serious potential for growth (and it is up to the opposers to provide this evidence); (c) it is not reasonable to expect many articles in this category since the Romans were the occupiers of the Jewish home country; (d) when the category is growing to more than a handful articles after all, the category can easily be reinstated; (e) it is very questionable whether the one article in this category belongs in this category as a "politician", he was the governor of a Roman province but Roman provinces did not have any political institutions.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
18:50, 9 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment: This appears to misunderstand both the deletion process and the topic of Roman politicians. The burden is not on those who oppose a nomination to prove that the category should exist. It's on the nominator to prove that it should not. More precisely, you need to show that the category will probably never be significantly bigger than it is right now. The number of entries currently in it, and the length of time since the category was created, are relevant but not determinative. The main question is whether there is potential for expansion, and that hasn't been addressed, unless you count the nominator's reasoning that the only way for the category to expand is for future Jewish politicians to rise to prominence in the Roman Empire—which doesn't really say anything about whether there were other Roman statesmen of Jewish descent who could fit into this category. Until there's some realistic attempt to determine whether there's potential for expansion, the rationale for deletion fails.
As for whether "politicians" is the best title, that's a legitimate issue for discussion, but not a basis to delete the category. Perhaps "statesmen" would be better, although "politicians" is used in some other Roman topics for lack of a better word. It's true that Roman governors didn't run for the office and tour their prospective provinces in a jeep, touting their ties to the community and kissing babies. But they didn't come from nowhere; most of them had held elected/appointed office in Rome or the provinces before, and had long political careers, even though we often lack many of the specifics. Any Roman governor is prima facie a politician—unless there's clear evidence to the contrary—although it might also be argued that being appointed to the government of a Roman province constitutes being a politician in itself. This category is like a stub article: a beginning, without any known limits. We don't delete stubs because they're very small; we delete them or merge them into other articles when they're unlikely ever to be expanded. That's what needs to be shown here.
P Aculeius (
talk)
21:50, 9 January 2019 (UTC)reply
There is a guideline with a default process and a rule of exception. The nominator needs to demonstrate that the default process should apply, the opposers (if appealing to the rule of exception) should demonstrate that the rule of exception applies. Everyone claiming something is responsible for justifying one's own claim.
"Statesmen" is an anachronistic term, besides it is questionable even for modern governors whether they should be classified as statesmen. Only "governor" would be really appropriate in this case. But Jewish Roman Empire governors would be even more exceptional and smallcattish.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
19:44, 10 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment "whether there were other Roman statesmen of Jewish descent" Several with Jewish descent, but I am uncertain of their religion.
Antonius Felix, the procurator of
Judea married a princess of the
Herodian dynasty. His article mentions several known and possible descendants from the 1st to the 3rd centuries, but does not bother with their religious affiliations.
Dimadick (
talk)
18:16, 10 January 2019 (UTC)reply
I would say that any of this group is potentially includible in this category, irrespective of religious practice. I'm not saying they would have to be included, just that they're potentially includible, in the same way that Benjamin Disraeli would tend to be included in a category for modern Jewish politicians, or Felix Mendelssohn among Jewish musicians, despite both of them having been raised as Christians. Returning to the original nomination, are any of them significant enough to warrant articles of their own?
P Aculeius (
talk)
23:13, 10 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Quick follow-up: if it doesn't look like many of these people will warrant separate articles on Wikipedia (whether or not they already have them), it does sound as if there's enough material for an article about or list of (probably a combination of both) Jewish politicians in the Roman Empire, which could explain the reasons for their scarcity, and why the ones who are known were able to achieve what they did (whether by assimilation, conversion, good fortune, or the policies of particular emperors, for example). So if the final result of this discussion is to delete, the information it was created to contain can still be included in Wikipedia, as an article rather than a category.
P Aculeius (
talk)
13:45, 11 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Fair enough, a list will also provide better insight than a category regarding questions like what occupation people had and to what extent they may be considered to be Jewish.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
14:04, 11 January 2019 (UTC)reply
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Category:UNESCO Creative Cities Network
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Category:Songs from Spider-Man soundtracks
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