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The result of the discussion was:procedural close. The nominator @
Chicbyaccident was showing little regard for consensus-forming processes, and has now abandoned it entirely by renaming
[1] this category while this discussion is open. Since the nominator has abandoned any pretence of respecting this consensus-forming process, I am closing this discussion. I will revert the move, and protect the category page. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
17:24, 22 February 2018 (UTC)reply
Procedural comment.
CFD 2017 October 24 was closed as "no consensus" (after being open for 78 days) because it consisted of a) the nominator's proposed renaming, b) one !vote by @
Gidonb for a different renaming; c) an alternative proposal by @
Marcocapelle to make a subcat. With 3 editors proposing different outcomes, "no consensus" was the only possible closure unless some arguments were better founded in policy or evidence, which was not the case here. It is surprising that this needs to be explained to @
Chicbyaccident, and regrettable that Chicbyaccident has chosen to misrepresent the Oct 24 discussion by falsely claiming that there were two positive votes for the proposal. That misrepresentation combined with Chicbyaccident's bizarre claim that a discussion open for 78 days was prematurely closed makes it hard to believe that Chicbyaccident is acting in good faith. Chicbyaccident should also have notified the two other participants in the October discussion that an identical proposal was being made again. I hope that my pings above will be some notice. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
00:39, 22 February 2018 (UTC)reply
Well-specified rename proposals contain two elements: [1] the name of the category needs to change [2] it should be changed to the name suggested. In the previous discussion I agreed with 1 but rejected 2.
Marcocapelle rejected 1 and thought that 2 would be a good name for a subcategory. So there was consensus (2 of 3) for renaming. The question is whether there was consensus on the renaming. I think there was no consensus as Marco did not agree that
Category:Catholic Church-related controversies should be the name of the very category for which a name change was suggested. I clearly rejected this name. In hindsight
Chicbyaccident (
talk·contribs) could have adopted my quite similar proposal, she could have tried to convince me of the name she suggested, or she could have joined Marco's proposal that also includes elements of hers. These strategies could have given her part or all what she desired. No blame for the outcome should be put on
BrownHairedGirl (
talk·contribs) who closed the discussion correctly. As the proposal failed last month, this month I'm suggesting a procedural keep.
gidonb (
talk)
02:26, 22 February 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Catholic denominations
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Nominator's rationale: Maintaining both categories borders
WP:OVERCATEGORISATION: "
Catholic" in the article realm redirects to the
Catholic Church, and there is no matching article
Catholic denomination. Categories should not deviate from
WP:Consensus in the article realm but for exceptionately good reasons. For the record, while I came across the category, it contained Old Catholic Church in Poland, which I then recategorised as into Category:Old Catholic denomations. This preexisting categorisation of Old Catholic Church in Poland exemplifies what's problematic about the neutrality, defintion, and scope with the category. A former proposal was put forward at
Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2017_October_24#Category:Catholic_denominations, with three positive votes against one negative, yet still unfortunately prematurely closed as "no consensus" by
BrownHairedGirl (
talk·contribs) without, I would argue, sufficient explanation.
Chicbyaccident (
talk)
23:23, 21 February 2018 (UTC)reply
Procedural comment. Several points in reply to @
Chicbyaccident::
if you disagree with a CfD closure, then the next steps are set out at
WP:DELREVD: "Discuss the matter with the closing administrator and try to resolve it with him or her first. If you and the admin cannot work out a satisfactory solution, only then should you bring the matter before Deletion Review". There is no guidance anywhere which supports using a new XfD nomination as an first-step venue to complain about the closure of a previous discussion.
The previous discussion was not prematurely closed, as Chicbyaccident falsely claims. On the contrary, it was open for 78 days, which is an extraordinary eleven times the minimum. The nominator should not abuse CfD as a platform to blatantly misrepresent the actions of other editors.
Opening a new nomination to repeat a proposal which was the subject of a recently-closed debate is
WP:FORUMSHOPping. Less delay is needed if the previous discussion closed as "no consensus", which was the case here; but the nominator's failure to notify the participants in the previous debate puts this firmly in the forum shopping territory. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
03:36, 22 February 2018 (UTC)reply
Rather than forum shopping, please consider this if you like helping out with a relisting. That should have been made at least once before determining "no consensus".
Chicbyaccident (
talk)
08:13, 22 February 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep and repopulate -- This will be largely a container. It should contain Catholic Church; Old Catholic denominations; Church of England, where Anglo-Catholics claim to be Catholic; Patriotic Chinese Catholic Church (in PRC, which was forced to abrogate Rome); and probably a selection dissident Catholic churches in America.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
16:49, 23 February 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Eastern Catholicism
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The result of the discussion was:Procedural close. Contrary to claims below by the nominator @
Chicbyaccident, the
2017 October 24 CFD was not closed prematurely; it was closed after 77 days. It was also not closed as "no consensus"; it was closed as keep, with a clear explanation: "No reason was offered for naming this category to a different format from its subcats such as Category:History of Eastern Catholicism. If it was intended that they should be renamed too, they should have been tagged and listed as part of a group nomination". This nomination is another attempt to apply a change to large set of categories which have neither been tagged nor listed. Those two omissions prevent a valid
WP:CONSENSUS being formed, because a) the lack of tagging means that editors who visit and/or watchlist the pages effected will see no indication that a discussion is underway regarding their fate; b) anyone who visits on this discussion page will see no list of the proposal's scope. So I am closing this discussion now, because its procedural flaws mean cannot be closed as anything other than "keep". Leaving it open would simply be wasting the time of anyone who commented. The nominator makes a reasoned case for the proposed change, but that case needs to be made as a group nomination of all the categories involved. Instructions on how to do this are at
WP:CFD#HOWTO, and if the nominator would like assistance, I suggest a request at
WT:CFD. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
00:10, 22 February 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Broken hearts
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Keep, I'm the "joker" who created this category, and it came about because I created the page Memory, the Heart, a painting which symbolically depicts the artist,
Frida Kahlo, her broken heart, and the emotion accompanying such an event. It wasn't created because of Valentine's Day or to vandalize the encyclopedia by adding a joke category. Broken hearts are portrayed in art, in literature, song, theater, opera, and other forms of communication. The page 'Takotsubo cardiomyopathy' was iffy, as it is a real-world condition with the alternate name of 'Broken heart syndrome', but I thought it was close enough for inclusion. This is a real subject, and instead of wanting to delete it maybe you can please help to expand it. I'd also like to point out that it does include appropriate and closely related pages and a major sub-category (
Songs about heartache) other than the two that are highlighted in the nomination. Thanks.
Randy Kryn (
talk)
22:29, 20 February 2018 (UTC)reply
Hi
Twiceuponatime (nice user name). You're correct, and after mulling this over came to a personal conclusion that the 'Love' category would be the best place for this as a subcategory. There cannot be a broken heart without first having a love. People, pets, or other loves fully loved have to exist before the life-events and emotions take some sort of chemical left-turn and evolve into the series of physical and emotional wrap-arounds that result in bona-fide card-carrying broken hearts. So as a directly related condition of "Love", that category seems appropriate. Thanks for pointing out that this one needed an up-the-chain home.
Randy Kryn (
talk)
18:48, 22 February 2018 (UTC)reply
This maybe should have been closed as kept, with a name change to 'Broken heart', awhile ago, and I ask someone to do so. Thanks.
Randy Kryn (
talk)
23:34, 19 March 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Grand Croix of the Ordre national du Mérite
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Category:KEXP
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Nominator's rationale: Per long-established past consensus against eponymous categories for individual radio stations. This is also a
WP:SMALLCAT, containing just the eponym itself and two compilation albums branded by the station. I've also removed a couple of articles already, because they violated either
WP:PERFCAT (we don't categorize radio DJs by individual station that they've worked for) or
WP:DEFINING (a music festival in Iceland is not defined by KEXP just because KEXP sent a DJ there to report on it once.) There's just not the volume of KEXP-defined spinoff content necessary to deem it a special exception to our established consensus against categories for individual radio stations.
Bearcat (
talk)
19:39, 20 February 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Railway stations served by London Midland
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Not really comfortable processing this one without a
full discussion. C2D does not technically apply to
set categories; however, more than that, I wonder if there are any railyway stations that were served by London Midland but are not served by West Midland Trains. --
Black Falcon(
talk)05:19, 11 February 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep both Even if the franchise has a new name, the fact that a station was formerly served by London Midland (and any other defunct railway companies) remains true and is worth a category. Eastmain (
talk •
contribs)06:32, 12 February 2018 (UTC)reply
Comment I can see the merit in the alternative suggestion, however the franchises changes almost as often as the franchisees. While the theory is that franchise areas are long term and don't change, reality is that they are far from stable, both in terms of names and geographical coverage.
For example the Thameslink franchise was merged with the Great Northern franchise in 2006, then renamed the
Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern franchise in 2014, merged with the Southern franchise in 2015, with consideration now being given to breaking it up again.
[3] Likewise the
South Eastern franchise became the Integrated Kent franchise in 2006, and is being relet as the South Eastern franchise. The
InterCity West Coast franchise is being relet as the West Coast Partnership while the Greater Anglia franchise became the
East Anglia franchise. Independently of each rename, all three have been chopped and changed with routes and stations added and deleted mid-term. And other changes are proposed such as splitting the
Greater Western franchise.
[4]
Franchises are generally awarded for seven to ten years and in about half of cases, the incumbent successfully retains, so not as if they are turning over regularly. After 21 years of privatisation, of the franchises that have remained reasonably stable in terms of station structure, the highest number of franchisees for any is four, the troublesome
InterCity East Coast. Of those that have not gone bust,
ScotRail has changed operators twice and the rest once only or never.
Since 2016, all franchises have received generic brands as they have been relet (with intellectual property vested with the government rather than the franchisee) as specified in the contracts even when the incumbent has retained, e.g. Abellio Greater Anglia became
Greater Anglia, First TransPennine Express became
TransPennine Express. This will mean going forward, when a franchise changes hands from the outside it will be a seamless transition with the brand name and livery carrying across as happened when the ScotRail franchise passed from
First ScotRail to
Abellio ScotRail with only the small "proudly operated by xxx" markings changing. As the brand name will remain stable, there will be no need to rename categories.
In answer to the question about stations served by London Midland that are not served by West Midlands Trains, there aren't any as the franchise map in this case was unchanged, but in other cases it hasn't been a straight like-for-like changeover, e.g.
CrossCountry does not call at stations on the West Coast Main Line that predecessor
Virgin CrossCountry did. Agree it would be an overkill to have a category for every former railway company, with pre-1923 grouping companies this could run into dozens for some of the major stations, Manchester Piccadilly has been served by 14 train operating companies since 1996.
Rollingsow (
talk)
01:44, 15 February 2018 (UTC)reply
Rename as nom While the franchisee changes periodically, the scope of the franchise, in terms of stations served, hardly does. While we do not like categories that require regular maintenance, in these cases the work needed is merely a change of name. Unfortunately most of the franchises do not have a stable name, so that these periodic renames are necessary. ScotRail, East Anglia, and some others may have a stable name.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
16:42, 18 February 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:UK Polaris programme
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Category:Korean monarchs by century
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