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Keep There are a lot of future categories that we need to plan for. We are already into the last quarter of 2017 so creating this appears to be quite reasonable.
Twiceuponatime (
talk)
14:25, 4 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Keep even though it shouldn't have been created in the first place. A significant amount of editor time is spent deleting and then recreating articles like this - I've recreated hundreds of date ones, and it's probably thousands once you include non-date ones (which admittedly don't have the inevitability of a future date, but still can be quite "plausible" categories that are briefly emptied). I completely get the point about "future" categories and I wouldn't encourage their creation ahead of time - but at the same time we're always going to get less experienced editors creating a small fraction of such categories and I wouldn't get too OCD about nuking them - within reason. Looking back since the millennium, an airline gets added to this kind of category roughly once a week, so it's definitely going to be a category that we need, probably within the first few weeks of January. So whilst I wouldn't create it if it didn't exist (and I've edited it to disable the
WP:REDNOT categories), I think it's less bad to leave it empty for a few weeks rather than make unnecessary work for ourselves (with the associated opportunity costs).
Le Deluge (
talk)
13:31, 6 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Comment while we may keep it for now, it will most probably soon be tagged and speedily deleted as empty, without anyone's noticeable effort.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
20:27, 9 October 2017 (UTC)reply
We'll keep it for now but please do not create such categories so early on. Last week before 2018 is good, last month OK but this is really early!
gidonb (
talk)
01:35, 22 October 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Afrikaner culture in Africa by city
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Category:Afrikaner culture in South Africa
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Lean Toward Merge I understand Oculi conceptual point about a country tree. But in practice, I don't see any navigational benefit with the current contents.
RevelationDirect (
talk)
09:31, 5 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Keep (procedural) - I agree with the editors above regarding the overlap between the two categories but we should not consider this category in isolation from
Category:Afrikaner culture in Namibia. The taxonomy of 'South African culture' → 'Afrikaner culture' → 'Afrikaner culture in Namibia' does not make sense to me; while this category exists, it can be cleaned up; once merged, however, it cannot. --
Black Falcon(
talk)17:25, 22 October 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Christian vestment stubs
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Category:G.I. Joe characters
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Support nomination, the alternative does not work too well because not all articles in the category are soldiers (at least there are two doctors among them).
Marcocapelle (
talk)
09:42, 15 October 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fictional aircraft carriers of the United States Navy
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Category:Biorobots in fiction
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Nominator's rationale: I was going to suggest moving this to
Category:Biorobotics in fiction, per the recent move of its parent category, but then I realized that the category is overly broad. If fully populated, it will encompass literally every work that contains a robot that is either shaped like an organic being, or has organic parts. It seems, therefore, to have little encyclopedic utility. ZXCVBNM (
TALK)15:54, 3 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Weak oppose to deleting, I don't expect a rename (as alternatively suggested) would suddenly lead to a huge increase of articles in this category, in the other words I don't really see the problem.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
21:32, 10 October 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Australian stock and station agents
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Nominator's rationale:merge, because the content of this category is companies only (in contrast to the New Zealand category below) the category is very poorly populated and it is not part of a broader scheme. The second parent category does not look like a very strong merge target, since these organizations deal with agriculture in general.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
15:55, 7 September 2017 (UTC)reply
follow-up. A quick search has found about 30 articles about Australian stock and station agents (not just people who worked as agents for a while, but business founders, long-term general managers, etc). It's also now part of a broader scheme. As such, it's probably a good idea to keep the category.
Grutness...wha?02:35, 16 October 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:New Zealand stock and station agents
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Nominator's rationale: "stock and station agent" is not a defining characteristic of the articles in this category. People involved are characterized more generally as farmers / land owners, or as merchants / business people. There are also a few companies in this category that can be moved to
Category:Agriculture companies of New Zealand per
WP:SMALLCAT like the Australian nomination above.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
15:26, 7 September 2017 (UTC)reply
This occupation is different from hoteliers or auctioneers in the sense that the occupation of hotelier or auctioneer is mentioned in a biography, while stock and station agent is mentioned in hardly any of the biographies that are in this category.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
07:49, 7 October 2017 (UTC)reply
I've removed all those which do not mention their work in stock and station agency. There are still 16 articles left. Is that what you meant by "hardly any"?
Grutness...wha?01:06, 10 October 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Churches in Newcastle, Maine
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Category:Musical decets
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Nominator's rationale: The last (for now) of three cats of bands by number; again, it's not defining, and one would think for instance that a band named "Pentagon" would be a quintet.
Mangoe (
talk)
10:43, 3 October 2017 (UTC)reply
This category was created by Hyacinth, who perhaps considered the deletion as
WP:G7. However, other editors had added members, and this discussion should be allowed to run its course, so I have reinstated the category and its members. –
FayenaticLondon22:22, 5 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete – I would expect that at some point (below 7) the number in a group becomes random and nothing to do with the music, that is, not defining.
Oculi (
talk)
09:39, 7 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete perhaps by creating a few more specific categories and deleting (or emptying) the parent. In addition to Barbershop Quartets, I would suggest string and wind quartets, because these are playing classical music pieces, written for that number of players. Quintets will normally be a quartet + one non-member. Higher numbers are largely random.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
11:56, 8 October 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Musical nonets
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Nominator's rationale: Another category of bands by number, with the reasoning as below: number is not defining for these groups.
Mangoe (
talk)
10:39, 3 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete Duets and barbershop quartets vocalists have a distinct impact on the music. How many accompanying instruments, backup singers, etc. seems more likely to be coincidental and non-defining to the actual music they produce.
RevelationDirect (
talk)
09:41, 5 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete – I would expect that at some point (below 7) the number in a group becomes random and nothing to do with the music, that is, not defining.
Oculi (
talk)
09:40, 7 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete perhaps by creating a few more specific categories and deleting (or emptying) the parent. In addition to Barbershop Quartets, I would suggest string and wind quartets, because these are playing classical music pieces, written for that number of players. Quintets will normally be a quartet + one non-member. Higher numbers are largely random.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
11:56, 8 October 2017 (UTC)reply
In the case of this category and those of larger numbers, I've gone through the category looking for classical groups and anyone specifically playing music written for the specified numbers. My recollection is that there's nothing here but pop music groups, so for this one there's no reorganizing to be done.
Mangoe (
talk)
20:31, 8 October 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Musical octets
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Nominator's rationale: Moving on from the en masse discussion, I'm proposing a few that should be less controversial. In this case we have a category that consists entirely of bands in a variety of genres. The number of members is a trivial characteristic of these, they were not put together to play music specifically written to be played by eight people, and it wouldn't surprise me that some of these varied in number of members over the years, so I would say this is not defining.
Mangoe (
talk)
10:14, 3 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete The rationale for deletion outlined by
Mangoe seems solid to me. I particularly agree with the point about numbers varying in many of these bands over time -
The Doobie Brothers article for example is listed in this and several of the other numerical categories for this very reason. Equally using that example the article never once uses the word octet, reinforcing the point above that the number of members is not a particularly significant characteristic.
Dunarc (
talk)
19:32, 4 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete Duets and barbershop quartets vocalists have a distinct impact on the music. How many accompanying instruments, backup singers, etc. seems more likely to be coincidental and non-defining to the actual music they produce.
RevelationDirect (
talk)
09:40, 5 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete I fully agree with RevelationDirect and Mangoe. The band
Yes (band) is a particular example: It is tagged as a "quintet", which is 99% correct (Yes had five members over most of its history, with brief exceptions) -- but tells us nothing interesting about the band. Nobody in human history will want to study all musical groups with five members and find the categorization of Yes useful to their project. Why not "bands with a prime number of members during years divisible by seven"? Yes qualifies for that, too. My only wish is that I could vote to delete quintet, sextet,a and septet as well. — Lawrence King(
talk)23:56, 5 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete – I would expect that at some point (below 7) the number in a group becomes random and nothing to do with the music, that is, not defining.
Oculi (
talk)
09:40, 7 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete perhaps by creating a few more specific categories and deleting (or emptying) the parent. In addition to Barbershop Quartets, I would suggest string and wind quartets, because these are playing classical music pieces, written for that number of players. Quintets will normally be a quartet + one non-member. Higher numbers are largely random.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
11:57, 8 October 2017 (UTC)reply
In the case of this category and those of larger numbers, I've gone through the category looking for classical groups and anyone specifically playing music written for the specified numbers. My recollection is that there's nothing here but pop music groups, so for this one there's no reorganizing to be done.
Mangoe (
talk)
20:32, 8 October 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Four Great Gardens of Guangdong
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Up to year 1000 in China, England, France and Japan
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The result of the discussion was:merge and delete. Once this is implemented, various templates will be edited, to avoid displaying tables of year categories that are now deprecated. Any interested editors are invited to join the discussion
here. –
FayenaticLondon20:58, 16 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Below is an example, the full list of proposed merging and deleting is on the Talk page
Nominator's rationale:merge/delete per
WP:SMALLCAT, mostly only one article per category. The proposed merge mostly adds some 10 articles to every century category, or to every century (dis)establishments category, so the targets won't get overcrowded.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
07:49, 26 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Upmerge In some of these cases the category trees are very long and deep for one article. Categories are meant to group like articles, it does no one any good to merge too far down. In the case of
Category:502 it is not clear that there is any need to seperate it at all. Clearly not a need to seperate below the level of continent.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
05:27, 27 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Upmerge etc as nom. These year categories produce long thin twigs that are a hindrance to navigation. However is there not a states established/disestablished that the 502 item should be in?
Peterkingiron (
talk)
12:15, 27 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Upmerge all as proposed. A monumental effort, to be sure. There is a possibility with so many items that some will be upmerged that would have been left alone if proposed individually, but I think the impact there would be minimal and, in any event, easily rectified. Taking
Category:991 in England as a typical example, there is only one event listed for that year (an important battle, as it happens) and so the problem with the category may, in that regard, be
WP:OVERCAT. The real problem, however, is that the category is in a sort of splendid isolation. There are ten empty years going forward before the next used category (1001). Going back, it's all the way to 972. There are only ten used subcats including this one in
Category:Years of the 10th century in England. I think there is a need for continuity if an annual series of categories is to be justified. CravinChillies 10:38, 31 August 2017 (UTC)reply
With only one article per year mostly, and moreover many year categories that are completely empty and non-existing, I can't see how this can have potential to become viable categories.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
05:14, 28 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Although this continues the trajectory of several recent CFD discussions, this will be far-reaching and a lot of work, so a stronger consensus would be desirable.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –
FayenaticLondon06:57, 3 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Upmerge all as proposed. But I have a horrible feeling we ought to be setting up redirects for individual years as we already get quite a lot of editors innocently creating early single-year categories. It's significant work and I don't like doing so many cat redirects, I'm not sure if there's a better way.
Le Deluge (
talk)
13:36, 6 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Additional check needed -- I still support the principle, but you also need to make sure that the articles are in a relevant list article. I looked for
914 in England, and found
934 in England, which proved to be a redirect to
10th century in England. I was considering an article called
Battle of Derby, which may in fact be misnamed. We know that Derby was captured, but we do not know much of the circumstances of this. There probably was a fight, but saying more than that is OR.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
12:41, 8 October 2017 (UTC)reply
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