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talk page or in a
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Large (or potentially large) "Companies by stock market index" categories
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale:Delete large (or potentially large) "Companies by stock market index" categories (and related "by former index" categories) as
overcategorizations. I think there is strong consensus that components of notable stock market indices having few members, such as the
DJIA or
CAC-40, have their index membership as one of their defining characteristics, but a some point as the index gets larger, index membership is no longer defining for the company: there would be no
Category:Wilshire 5000 companies, for example, and we deleted
Category:S&P 500, albeit for a different reason,
here. So the question is this: should there be a (necessarily arbitrary) size of the index membership that is the cutoff? I propose the answer is "yes," that the cutoff number should be 100 companies, and thus the above categories should be deleted. (Because they change more frequently, the cats for larger indices also become much, much harder to maintain: not a primary driver to delete, but something also to keep in mind).
UnitedStatesian (
talk)
20:03, 8 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Comment SZSE Component Index was notable for just 50 companies. But and then it was expended into 500. It had sub-index SZSE 100 which suitable for nominator's rational. CSI 300 Index also had a sub-index CSI 100 Index which just need to subcat the companies before possible deletion.
Matthew_hktc23:29, 8 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Comment -- If these indices are anything like FTSE 100, the constituents change slightly every few months, so that a current constituents category would require a lot of regular maintenance, probably with those removed being moved to a former constituents category.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
21:35, 9 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete all partially done cleanup on CSI 300 index. The rest of the entries, either the actual entry for the company was not created (
Port of Yingkou) or no citation given in the article to support it is part of the index.
Matthew_hktc00:25, 20 July 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Amazon Alexa skills
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Delete first two categories, those characteristics aren't even mentioned in most of the articles that are in the category. I'm unsure about the third nominated category.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
16:06, 22 July 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Redirects to numerals
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Delete unless someone is able to explain the purpose of this tracking category. The creator of the category hasn't been active since 2014 and the category isn't tagged for any Wikipedia project so the chance that someone is using this category isn't too big.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
17:55, 8 July 2017 (UTC)reply
So do you happen to know if there is any active usage of the both categories? By the way, I've added the Wikiproject tags to these categories just now.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
19:46, 8 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Keep per
WP:RCAT. Firstly, these are not "backward", they are just right. When one reads the explanations on the category pages, one finds that the definition of "numeral" here is "number" rather than the linguistics definition of "a word that represents a number". Knowing how "numeral" is defined seems crucial to how these categories are laid out. As for purpose, it seems obvious that these are for tracking and maintenance of redirects that are either worded numbers or numerical-number symbols. Who tracks them? Probably bots now, although I'm not exactly bot-savvy, so I don't know, maybe there's a list of bot projects or something similar that would tell us about this? It seems to me that a good deal of care should be taken with maintenance and tracking categories, because either renaming or deleting them may have far-reaching effects. They are supposed to be populated by templates that would also need to be renamed or deleted, and so on. Paine Ellsworthput'r there14:56, 9 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Keep per
User:Paine Ellsworth; there is no reason to expend the effort to change a reasonable existing structure.
bd2412T 17:59, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
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Category:Redirects from numerals
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Nominator's rationale: Almost all of the pages in the cat. are, or contain, numbers, and it is the targets that are (or contain) numerals. Switching both cat names is easier than re-catting all of the redirects.
UnitedStatesian (
talk)
16:20, 8 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete unless someone is able to explain the purpose of this tracking category. The creator of the category hasn't been active since 2014 and the category isn't tagged for any Wikipedia project so the chance that someone is using this category isn't too big.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
17:55, 8 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Keep per
WP:RCAT. Firstly, these are not "backward", they are just right. When one reads the explanations on the category pages, one finds that the definition of "numeral" here is "number" rather than the linguistics definition of "a word that represents a number". Knowing how "numeral" is defined seems crucial to how these categories are laid out. As for purpose, it seems obvious that these are for tracking and maintenance of redirects that are either worded numbers or numerical-number symbols. Who tracks them? Probably bots now, although I'm not exactly bot-savvy, so I don't know, maybe there's a list of bot projects or something similar that would tell us about this? It seems to me that a good deal of care should be taken with maintenance and tracking categories, because either renaming or deleting them may have far-reaching effects. They are supposed to be populated by templates that would also need to be renamed or deleted, and so on. Paine Ellsworthput'r there14:57, 9 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Based on your long and well-reasoned !vote, I sensed consensus was developing that the creator of the original cat. meant number when he wrote numeral. I did not want to tag any additional redirects with the incorrect template, and correct template led to a red cat., so I created it (and modified the nom. accordingly). Sorry for any confusion.
UnitedStatesian (
talk)
13:43, 15 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Thank you, but I'm still confused. The original creator meant "numeral", because by definition, a number is also called a numeral. In point of fact, "number" is just as vague as "numeral" because both terms could apply to the symbols (1, 2, 3...) or to the words (one, two, three...). Let's leave these as they are, because there really is no reason to change "numeral" to "number". The former works just as well as the latter. If this is all too vague, then what we might want to entertain would be to fit the term "symbol" into both names, such as ‹The
templateCat is being
considered for merging.›Category:Redirects from numerical symbols and, for the item just above this one, ‹The
templateCat is being
considered for merging.›Category:Redirects to numerical symbols. Paine Ellsworthput'r there20:37, 16 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Keep per
User:Paine Ellsworth; there is no reason to expend the effort to change a reasonable existing structure.
bd2412T 17:59, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
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Old maps
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Keep some -- "Maps of history of" are WP images to illustrate articles. The old maps series is for historic maps and I would prefer
Category:Historic maps of the United Kingdom, etc. The Roman category covers a small number that survive from the Roman era, over 1500 years ago, and should not be merged with anything. The UK one currently contains medieval maps. Merging that with what WP-ans have drawn is also wrong. In the UK case the answer is populate, as there are a lot of early modern maps. China and Korea are small, but I expect there is potentially more to go into them. However some others have only one article and may need to be merged to
Category:Historic maps in Europe without prejudice to re-creation, if a national category can be decently populated. Historic maps are potentially a significant historical source, and the urge to merge should be resisted.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
22:01, 9 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Indeed we could dedicate the proposed targets to image categories (that would require renaming the target and would require some purging) and keep the continent subcats here.
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Category:Manga-influenced comics
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Delete This doesn't appear to be an established trend for categorization and indeed "influenced" can be subjective. Just as a side note, we have the related category
Category:Anime-influenced animation, should probably be deleted on the similar grounds that anime are animation too. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist(Speak quickly)(Follow my trail)
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Establishments in Great Britain by year
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale The entries only relate to establishments in the state known as the
Kingdom of Great Britain. They do not relate to the island of
Great Britain. Name should follow true parent. See also
Category:Centuries in Great Britain which relate to the island. The state did not exist for 21 out of the 22 centuries mentioned.Only the island existed for all that time. Disambiguation is needed. I expect Little Englanders to oppose as they wish to conflate the state with the island, even though disambiguation is clearly needed Some may wish to conflate the state with the island but this nomination seeks to correct such a error..
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
08:43, 8 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Comment Tim neglects to mention that the closing Admin of the nomination that he cited said "Perhaps the Events (including Trials, Disestablishments and Establishments) should be renamed with "Kingdom of..."". So that's not showing a lot of good faith by Tim either, is it?
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
08:52, 8 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Comment Tim is not shy of litigation himself - see
here. Contrary to the impression that he seeks to create above, this topic is not a slam dunk. There is a growing realisation that GB is not synonymous with the KoGB. The cats will inevitably follow this realisation once Wiki can stand up to Little Englander bullying.Laurel Lodged (
talk)
09:07, 8 July 2017 (UTC)reply
It would be helpful if you tried to reach consensus before creating masses of duplicate categories and actually try to improve navigation rather than hinder it with your political pov pushing grudge match.
Tim! (
talk)
09:11, 8 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Note to Closing Admin Please note that Tim, following my inclusion of additional supporting material re Centuries categories, has outrageously attempted to subvert this discussion by changing the parentage of that category - see diff
here. He has also changed the parentage of the related Millenia category
here which I have reverted. Penalties should by applied IMHO.
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
09:25, 8 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Reply I noted the anomaly myself. Hence the need for current nomination. Once it goes through, the circular problem will disappear. BTW, your "correction" could have been done after the closure of the nomination, not during it. The above is little more than Admin bullying. Makes a change from Little Englander bullying I suppose.Laurel Lodged (
talk)
09:40, 8 July 2017 (UTC)reply
@
Laurel Lodged:
Tim! is correct. "Centuries in Foo" clearly belongs in "History of Foo" by period. Tim's edit was correct, and it subverts nothing. So I have reinstated it.
And drop the
WP:BATTLEGROUND approach, LL. Tim's proposal of a topic ban would have an easy passage on the basis of your conduct in this CFD, and if you want to avoid such a ban, you at the very least should desist from being so combative and strike all the conflict-laden parts of your comments. ---
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
11:01, 12 July 2017 (UTC)reply
That is an essay, not a guideline. It's nothing more than one editor's view. --23:48, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
I am more concerned about your current behaviour than whatever got you blocked those times, which I haven't really looked into. I just noted that categories were mentioned in the blocking admins summaries.
Tim! (
talk)
16:40, 17 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Keep -- Kingdom of GB is exactly the same place as GB. Kingdom of GB differs very marginally from GB in 18th century, in that there was Parliamentary Union in 1707, 104 years after the union of the crown and government.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
22:08, 9 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Comment Finally, an admission of difference. Where there is difference, there is need for disambiguation. BTW, the crowns were in personal union, not political union between 1603 and 1707; there were two crowns, two governments and two states. If it were otherwise, there would have been no need for the 1706 Act.
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
09:24, 10 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Oppose. The sub-categories do indeed cover only the period when the
Kingdom of Great Britain, but the geographical scope of
Great Britain is identical, so no disambiguation is needed. The shorter name is just as precise, so there is no reason to add extra verbosity to the category names. It is most unhelpful that the nominator chose to use the nomination to disparage those who disagree with him. Such comments poison debate and distract from the substantive discussion. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
12:51, 11 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Don't be silly. There is no suggestion that an island establishes things. The title makes it very clear that it is for establishments which happened in the territory; it makes no assertion of who did the establishing. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
10:43, 12 July 2017 (UTC)reply
The parent category is
Category:Establishments by country and year. As the title suggests, every entry is a state / country, not a random island. You will find no entry for Greenland or other North Atlantic islands that are not of themselves states. So why would you want to give an island admission to this parent?
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
11:00, 12 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Support reverse merge other "years" categories eg establishments in the Kingdom of Great Britain by year to establishments in Great Britain by year. The only "years" category are in the 18th century, and there are no other "years" categories for the island other than in the 18th century.
Hugo999 (
talk)
02:30, 12 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Reply Since "The only "years" category are in the 18th century, and there are no other "years" categories for the island other than in the 18th century", then it is the Kingdom that ought to own the years, not the island. @
Hugo999: - your own logic points to a "support" vote, not an "oppose" vote. Perhaps you might re-visit.
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
08:13, 12 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Precedent Note the recent decision at CDF
here which also ruled in favour of "Kingdom". Like "establishments", only states can carry out executions, hence the need for "Kingdom of GB", not plain GB.
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
09:45, 12 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Irrelevant precedent. The executions category is for actions carried out by or on behalf of the state, so naturally it uses the state's title. These categories are for things which happened in the territory of the state, regardless of who did the establishing. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
10:48, 12 July 2017 (UTC)reply
If these "...categories are for things which happened in the territory of the state..", then why not have the state's name in the title? Why would you want to give the impression that they just happened in a North Atlantic island?
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
10:55, 12 July 2017 (UTC)reply
See
WP:PRECISE: "Usually, titles should be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but no more precise than that". "Establishments in Great Britain by year" has exactly the same scope as the more verbose "Establishments in the Kingdom of Great Britain by year, so we use the more concise form.
C-C-R Ah but the tree structure mentioned above is polluted. It is a mishmash of state entities and island entities. Since it has been admitted that the nomination refers to the state alone, then all efforts should be bent to unwinding this unfortunate pollution. Thank you for illustrating the core problem so well.
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
08:16, 17 July 2017 (UTC)reply
LL, the distinction is irrelevant to the scope of the category, which is both a geographical and a political entity. The equivalent categories for Ireland don't engage in gymnastics of nomenclature for the various names of state which have applied over the centuries; there is also no need for the categories for its eastern neighbour to gyrate. Plesae re-read
WP:CAT, which reminds us that Wikipedia categories are a navigational device. They are not an exercise in scholastic theology or in mathematical precision, and a lot of CFD time is wasted by your mistaken presumptions that they are either or both. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
01:17, 18 July 2017 (UTC)reply
The above is a clear demonstration of the need for disambiguation. One this thread, BHD has emphatically declared that the nominated cat is a state and yet above she states that it also covers the island. If BHD and Tim are unclear as to its purpose, how can it retain its existing name. And no, it's not a Herculean task to fix this. Accepting this nom goes a long way towards disambiguating the two entities.
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
10:19, 18 July 2017 (UTC)reply
LL, for the umpteenth time: there is no ambiguity. There is no ambiguity. There is no ambiguity. There is no ambiguity.
Keep calm. Don't panic. Citing another tree structure: the nominated category has as its parent
Category:Years in Great Britain (see nom below) which has as its parent
Category:18th century in Great Britain. Now this tree is part of an island-wide tree structure that has 22 centuries. So you see how it gets polluted with just a leap to grandparent level? There is a need to separate the streams. The other elements are or will be in place to ensure a smooth divorce. Keep calm. Don't panic.
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
10:29, 19 July 2017 (UTC)reply
LL, why is there " a need to separate the streams"? Why?
Nothing about the scope of these categories would change as a result of the renaming.
The sole purpose of the extra verbosity is theological neatness. The price for that is redundant verbosity in the names of ~300 categories.
Since there is no gain, extra verbosity is redundant: there is no point in making readers and editors pay the price of that extra verbosity.
Careful oppose I'm not a subject expert so I have nothing to say about whether the KoGB is the same thing as GB or vice versa. However, the nominator seems to insist that they're different, and even if he is correct, I don't see the benefit of renaming this category, because we'd still need the one the new category sprang from. If the nominator's proposed category is proper - and that's a big "if" at this point judging by the commentary directly above me - it should not be created as a rename from this one. The best I can say is that should the new category's existence be justified entries should simply be moved there, with the old category retained for use as needed. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist(Speak quickly)(Follow my trail)09:22, 20 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Reply Thanks for venturing in. It's really quite simple, despite the obfuscation above. Is
Kingdom of Great Britain the
Wikipedia:PRIMARYORONLYTOPIC for this category or is
Great Britain the primary topic? BHG above admits that it's about the state. This means that the name of the category should reflect the name of the primary topic (i.e. the Kingdom of Great Britain). That's why the proposal should be approved.
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
12:02, 20 July 2017 (UTC)reply
This is very simple: the category refers to both the state and the island. Regrettably, LL repeatedly sets out to disrupt the discussion by misrepresenting my position as one half of that.
If, as asserted above, the category refers to both the state and the island, then why are there no child categories for years that do not happen to overlay exactly with the years for which the state alone existed? Coincidence? Unfortunate oversight? Or you can choose to reject the improbable and accept the obvious fact staring you in the face - it's for the state alone and so should follow the name of it's true parent.
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
18:48, 20 July 2017 (UTC)reply
LL, for the umpteenth time: it doesn't matter, because renaming would not change the scope of the category.
Ultimately, my stance is to keep the original category regardless, with or without the one proposed. Laurel Lodged, perhaps you should read
WP:BLUDGEON; in short, it really isn't a good idea to respond to everyone else in the discussion. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist(Speak quickly)(Follow my trail)02:14, 21 July 2017 (UTC)reply
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Years in Great Britain
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale The category only has years that span the existence of the state known as the
Kingdom of Great Britain. It is not about the island of
Great Britain. The name should follow the true parent. See also
Category:Centuries in Great Britain which relate to the island. The state did not exist for 21 out of the 22 centuries mentioned. Only the island existed for all that time. Disambiguation is needed. I expect Little Englanders to oppose as they wish to conflate the state with the island, even though disambiguation is clearly needed.
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
08:27, 8 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Comment Allow me to point out the need more explicitly: 1 thing existed for a century, another thing existed for millennia. The first thing ceases to exist, the other thing continues to exist. Great Britain may be sufficient, but Brexit will show us if it's self sufficient.
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
08:55, 8 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Reverse merge. The nominator is correct that that this all refers to the 1707–1800 state known as the
Kingdom of Great Britain rather than to the still-extant island of
Great Britain. However, for the period when we categorise in this way, there is no ambiguity, because the geographical scope is identical. So Peterkingiron's assertion is correct wrt to these categories: "Category:1707 in the Kingdom of Great Britain" has exactly the same meaning as
Category:1707 in Great Britain.
Reply This nomination was a toe in the water. I wasn't going to go to the trouble of nominating over 100 subcats if the parent was not successfully merged. Clearly if this nom is successful then I will proceed to a mass nomination of the subcats. I agree with BHG that "Category:1707 in the Kingdom of Great Britain" has exactly the same meaning as
Category:1707 in Great Britain. However, there is no equivalent for "Category:707 in the Kingdom of Great Britain" and
Category:707 in Great Britain because there would never be enough material for a "By year" tree structure for the island. Only the state would have enough material and that is confined to a century. The island - the main "owner" of the GB name - barely has enough material at a millennium level, let alone year level. It would also be ahistorical to claim the 8th century for the state; only the island existed in the 8th century.
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
10:23, 10 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Reverse merge These categories are always used for political entities, not apolitical geographical ones. The claim that 1720 in Great Britain is in any way ambiguous is just silly. This nomination is taking naming to an illogical extreme, and ignoring common name rules.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
03:33, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Medieval homosexual people
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Nominator's rationale: Category which duplicates the existing one for no discernible reason. While the potential anachronism may constitute a valid reason to rename the LGBT category to this, it does not constitute a reason for this and the LGBT category to both exist in a "child and parent" relationship — technically speaking, in fact, the term "homosexual" didn't exist until the 19th century either, so it's no less an anachronism in the "medieval" context than LGBT is.
Bearcat (
talk)
00:50, 8 July 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Homosexual people
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Nominator's rationale: Unhelpful and unnecessary duplication of ‹The
templateCategory link is being
considered for merging.›Category:LGBT people, on an outdated terminology that isn't sufficiently distinct from the contemporary term. All of the contents here would be quite fine filed directly in the parent category, without needing this as an intermediate extra step.
Bearcat (
talk)
00:46, 8 July 2017 (UTC)reply
These categories were created to avoid anachronistic categorisation of pre-modern people as "LGBT", an identity that dates to the 1990s.
Al-Hakam II was homosexual, he was not "lesbian, gay, bisexual and/or transgender".
This is just about abusing Wikipedia to play identity politics. This is evident from nominator's implication that "LGBT" is "equivalent" to "homosexual". One is a political movement that developed in the 1990s and is not applicable to the 10th century. The other describes a human sexual orientation and is perfectly applicable to any century provided we have sufficient sources to make a judgement.
I have no problem with categorizing modern people who play identity politics as people who play identity politics, after all we are here to reflect reality. I am simply trying to prevent contemporary identity politics from spilling over to articles on pre-modern individuals. If you have references saying Al-Hakam was homosexual, go ahead and categorise him as "homosexual", but this doesn't give you any license to inflict a 1990s category like "LGBT" on him. --
dab(𒁳)06:31, 8 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Firstly, this category as constituted includes the subcategories "gay men" and "lesbians" — which means that it includes thousands of modern people and is not being restricted to "pre-modern" folks. And secondly, the term "homosexual" did not exist in the English language until the late 19th century either, which means that for very nearly anybody for whom LGBT would be an "anachronism", homosexual would be an "anachronism" as well.
Secondly, being gay or lesbian does not automatically imply that somebody is "playing identity politics" (whatever that means). That's a pejorative term which is used to dismiss some people's real issues in life as not really real issues, not an objective or
neutral description of reality or a statement that belongs anywhere near a Wikipedia article. "LGBT" categories do not imply that "LGBT" itself is the label that the people in it would necessarily have identified with, or that they were necessarily actively political about it; it implies nothing beyond "this person was one of the things that falls under this umbrella". ‹The
templateCategory link is being
considered for merging.›Category:LGBT is not a political category per se; it's for people who are L, G, B or T regardless of whether they "play identity politics" or just try to get on living their lives. As constructed, all this category is actually doing is putting an unnecessary extra step in between "LGBT" and "gay"/"lesbian", for reasons that are not restricted to the ones you've claimed, as this is simply roping in everyone who identifies as gay or lesbian regardless of whether they lived before the 19th century or in the 21st.
Bearcat (
talk)
13:21, 8 July 2017 (UTC)reply
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