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Nominator's rationale:Delete. I ran into this when looking for an old pope CfD. So I have to ask. Is nationality by sex defining? If this is deleted, there will be a large number of subcategories impacted.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
23:08, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment/question. As container categories (presumably), will any of these subcategories have any appropriate content apart from the corresponding "FOOian men by occupation" subcategory? Maybe a "kings" or "princes" category—or are those "occupations"?
Good Ol’factory(talk)01:03, 15 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Let's see: the category "American men" has just one subcat, "American men by occupation". This one has only 9 subcats: actors, comedians, dancers, escorts, models, monks, prostitutes, singers and sportsmen. Honestly, I think the full tree should be deleted. --
NaBUru38 (
talk)
18:18, 19 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep as a container category. I pretty sure there is a "label" used to indentify container categories and if so it needs to be added, of course.
Mayumashu (
talk)
15:22, 20 March 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Athletic DNA players
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Nominator's rationale:Delete.
Athletic DNA is not a team or a club, it is a brand of clothing, and the category is defined as players who "wear Athletic DNA apparel." We don't categorize people by the products they endorse, or the companies that sponsor them, or the products that they otherwise choose to use.
Good Ol’factory(talk)21:51, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete I agree that poorly disguised advertisements are inappropriate. Even if we did categorize people by the companies they endorse, why would we start with a company that has yet to complete a decade of activity. Why its this companies marketing strategy more notable than
Nike, Inc. who seems to have several decades of such endorsements?
Dimadick (
talk)
16:14, 16 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete we get enough categories on sportspeople pages without this. This is a horrible idea and if kept would create a horrible precedent leading to way more category clutter.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
04:08, 17 March 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:CableACE award winners
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Nominator's rationale The guidelines on categorization by award say we should not have categories for award winners except in a very few exceptions. This is not an award of the significant prestige to fit the very few exceptions. Having cateogries like this leads to category clutter on article pages, and just encorages even more award categories, which leads to more clutter.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
20:58, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Comic book publishing companies of Korea
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Comment I was a bit surprised that we don't have a category for North Korean animation studios, since I remembered a hand full of European films and television series outsourced there. After a small search I found that we do have an article on the North Korean
SEK Studio. It is misplaced in category "South Korean animation studios", though the article body says otherwise. Any thoughts on the matter?
Dimadick (
talk)
16:05, 16 March 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Holding companies of Korea
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Nominator's rationale:Rename to match the actual content of the category. All three members of the category are described in their article as South Korean companies and all three became holding companies after 1948. Given the current regime, North Korean holding companies can't exist, at least for now, and the Korean economy prior to Japanese occupation was not sufficiently developed to sustain true conglomerates.
Pichpich (
talk)
19:23, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Bookstores of Korea
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Nominator's rationale:Rename for a number of reasons. First, this is a better reflection of the contents since all these bookstores are South Korean companies. Accordingly, its parent category is
Category:Retail companies of South Korea. The other parent is
Category:Bookstores by country but currently, there's no country called Korea so using this name in the title would only make sense if the category included companies that operated pre-1948. That's not the case.
Pichpich (
talk)
19:10, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:States of the Southern United States
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Does this term have any exact definition that never varies depending on the point of view?? Look at, for example, the map at
Western United States and look at the color/pattern coding of the states. It reveals some states that invariably belong to that region, and some that may or may not depending on the point of view.
Georgia guy (
talk)
17:43, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
No, there is no such definition. But since the region exists IRL it should be possible to reach a consensus based on the most common usage. Most likely The Greater South including the 11 ex-Confederate state + Oklahoma, West Virginia, and Kentucky. But then again this would require using common sense - so maybe that is unrealistic in a Wikipedia context ;-).--
Orakologen (
talk)
18:13, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
This is best handled by a list where you can show all of the states that could be included and show which groups of southern states include them.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
19:22, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Weak Keep All 15 states listed (plus a 16th one, Delaware) are included in the article
Southern United States. Its list is sourced to a map of the United States Census Bureau (
[1]) and does not seem to be POV. I am not sure why we need an extra-subcategory to "Category:Southern United States", but I don't see a reason for deletion.
Dimadick (
talk)
15:50, 16 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete there is no universally used definition of this term. There are also not enough U.S. states to make it worth having sub-cats that gorup them in this way. It is not a needed or useful category.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
04:10, 17 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep with the most states normally considered south. If he have a category abouth Southern United States, it should be possible to reach their states with a few clicks, it's very relevant to the category. --
NaBUru38 (
talk)
18:22, 19 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment most reports put Oklahoma as only "vaguely" in the South. It is rarely considered to be in the south without question. Even Texas is only considered to be sort of in the south.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
00:55, 24 March 2013 (UTC)reply
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Kew
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Nominator's rationale: The head article is at
Kew, so
Category:People from Kew, London was nominated yesterday for speedy renaming to
Category:People from Kew. I opposed this, because Kew is ambiguous:
Kew (disambiguation) lists several other places of the same name. Ambiguous category names lead to miscategorisation, which is hard to monitor because the Mediawiki software does not allow monitoring of additions to or removal from categories. That's why there are many cases where an article is judged to be the
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, but the eponymous category is disambiguated. An example is
Birmingham/
Category:Birmingham, West Midlands.
In every single instance where a head article and its associated categories are at different levels of disambiguation from each other, it's because one or the other is at the wrong level of disambiguation. And that goes for "Birmingham", too; the conflict there has less to do with the situation's actual justifiability and more to do with some of the UK contingent's weirdly persistent belief that a particular place having historically possessed the name before another one did should trump any other disambiguatory consideration (an argument which reached its absolute nadir when it was actually cited as a reason why the primary topic for
Boston should be the small village in
Lincolnshire rather than the exponentially larger and more internationally famous metropolis in
Massachusetts.)
For the record, I have no preference either way, except that they need to be at the same level of disambiguation as each other. If the category has to be at "Kew, London" because of ambiguity issues, then the article has the exact same ambiguity issues and needs to be moved with it; if the article is actually fine at "Kew", then so is the category. There is never a valid reason why an article and its associated categories need to be at different levels of disambiguation from each other; in every single case that has ever been presented — yes, including Birmingham — the actual reality has been that one side or the other was incorrectly assessing how serious the ambiguity actually was.
Bearcat (
talk)
22:04, 18 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Birmingham is not a valid precedent for anything. If "Birmingham" is too ambiguous to be the category name for the one in England, then it is also too ambiguous to be the article title; if it is unambiguous enough to be the article title, then it is also unambiguous enough to be the category name. As I stated above, if an article and its associated categories cannot be at the same level of disambiguation as each other, then that is evidence that either the article or the category is not sitting at the correct level of disambiguation; it is absolutely never under any circumstances whatsoever, no exceptions ever for any reason, ever ever ever the correct or justifiable solution. If you can even entertain the idea that it might be justifiable, then incorrect reasoning is being used in one place or the other.
Bearcat (
talk)
21:46, 27 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Rename to
Category:Kew, London. We simply can not keep both since that would be completely confusing. There is no reason to retain
Category:Kew as a top level category, which I think was suggested above, since that would be categorizing by like names which we avoid. Also, if the above comment was a need to rename
Kew to
Kew, London, or some other variant, that also makes sense.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
21:16, 21 March 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Jewish popes
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The source is the Bible, obviously its reliability as a historical text is debatable, but I have nver seen Peters ethnicity described as a controversial fact. Jewish tradition also recognizes Peter as a Jew. Since Peter was from the land of Israel, Israeli popes would be the most appropriate national category, but since this was speed deleted whitout a proper discussion I have created Jewish popes. Most of the apostles - including Peter - were Jewish ie. born Jewish and still Jewish in the ethnic and national sense of the word after becoming Christians (which were not that clearly separated in the early years anyhow). That should not be in any way controversial and I dont know why BrownHairedGirl think it is. Why is it so bad to have Peter listed with his ethnicity/nationality when all the other popes are categorised in this way? We also have Argentinian popes despite there is only one in this cateory, so the sheer number can not be a relevant criteria.--
Orakologen (
talk)
14:13, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
So if Peter was a Jew and Peter was a pope you cant combine those two simple facts and say he was a Jewish Pope?? That doesnt make sense. Its taking the generally sensible synthesis rule into the land of absurdity. Anyway what about Israelitic Popes?
Dictionary definition:
Is·ra·el·ite (zr--lt)
n.
1. A native or inhabitant of the ancient Northern Kingdom of Israel.
2. A descendant of Jacob; a Jew.
3. A member of a people regarded as the chosen people of God.
4. A Jew not descended from the tribe of Levi and not a priest.
Delete although no doubt St Peter would fit (reliably sourced) into a "Popes of Jewish descent" since there are myriad sources for that concept in Wikipedia's one drop rule.
Carlossuarez46 (
talk)
17:26, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
ReplyThat doesnt make any sense. We have plenty of Italian popes at a time where Italy didnt exist as a state. Syrian based only on coming from that area. African used for Berbers who are not ethnically African in the modern sense and with dubious sources. Why this double standard? And how about providing an alternative description. He was listed as "Syrian" for a long time without anybody complaining about it. Jewish descent and Jewish is the same in this context. If he was of Jewish descent (born Jewish) he is ethnically Jewish. If your definition is this narrow all popes before modern states developing in Europe past 1648 should not be categorized based on nationality.--
Orakologen (
talk)
18:35, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment. Even if this CFD determines that the category is OK, the category is going to be empty unless there is consensus at
Talk:Saint Peter to include that article in the category. Right now, it looks like that won't happen, and the category will remain empty.
Good Ol’factory(talk)21:07, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete The use of Jewishness as other than a religious designation is questionable much before 1800. It is clearly not a supported way to dwevelop people not practicisn Judaism in the first century. This hybrid of religion and just does not work.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
20:46, 15 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep. Perhaps it needs to be re-named, since I don't know that any pope other than Saint Peter was Jewish by religion at the time of being a pope, and he never said he was pope and other people said he wasn't a Jew. But Evaristus was also a Jew by birth, wasn't he? So whatever this category gets named, it would have two pages in it, not just one. Or am I wrong?
Eldin raigmore (
talk)
18:19, 17 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete -- The one article relates to an early Bishop of Rome (from before that see became the universal primate), of Hellenic Jewish descent, and at a period when being a Jewish Christian was not necessarily unusual.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
17:18, 19 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete for various reasons - I'm perfectly happy with Peter being a Jewish Pope, but he seems to be the only one (so far), so "small and unlikely to expand", although everything we know about Early Christianity suggests other early Popes were probably converts from Judaism or descendants of converts, but the minimal to non-existent biographical details we have don't inform us about this, except for
Pope Evaristus, according to a much later source.
Jewish pope Andreas would have to go in
Category:Fictional Jewish popes since he is clearly not historical - are there others for that I wonder? Plus of course it isn't a nationality. The note at
Category:Popes by nationality covers Peter adequately.
Johnbod (
talk)
03:19, 21 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment It is absurd that a religious Jew would become Pope but I don't know if anyone but saint Peter was a racial Jew who converted. If we have another racially Jewish Pope, we should probably keep it but if not delete it. >>
M.P.Schneider,LC (
parlemus •
feci)
17:13, 9 April 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode stubs
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Category:Star Trek episode stubs
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Nominator's rationale:Delete empty templates. For this, the category itself is fine for the time being. But some of the templates have lost their usefulness. Templates {{StarTrek-TNG-episode-stub}} and {{StarTrek-TOS-episode-stub}} should be deleted. All episodes for these two discontinued shows have individual articles that have passed stub status.
Dawynn (
talk)
12:50, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Star Trek: Voyager episode stubs
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Upmerge to Star Trek episode stubs. No need to re-tag; simply redirect the existing stub template, and remove any references to it from stub category pages. –
FayenaticLondon13:51, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Seasons in European football by country
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Disagree, Keep title as is. Nominators rationale makes no sense to me. Association football is organised by Seasons not Years plus UEFA does not have copywrite over the term European football. The current title is clear and concise. Don't see any point in changing it.
Djln --
Djln (
talk)
17:20, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Still Disagree With greatest respect Mentoz, I can make no sense of your arguement. Nothing you have said convinces me for a need to for change/merge.
Djln--
Djln (
talk)
18:48, 15 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment -- "Seasons in European football" should be about Europe-wide international competitions. We under 200 countries, a worldwide "by country" category should be sufficient. "Season" is certainly appropriate, since the competions operate over the winter, the current season being 2012/3.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
17:22, 19 March 2013 (UTC)reply
I'd support a merger into "Seasons in football by country", but not the current proposal. I mean, the "Seasons in European football by country" could be expended to a worldwide view, but that should be described by seasons, not years (some championships have calendar seasons, of course). --
NaBUru38 (
talk)
18:26, 19 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Oppose - invalid rationale, European football is quite clearly association football and there appears to be no reason to make the move. Of course the part of the proposal to change "seasons" to "years" has already been aborted, I would suggest this move discussion be, too. C67921:19, 30 March 2013 (UTC)reply
I admit that this was not a very good rationale, but what I'm trying to say is that European football in something primarily used to describe continental tournaments organized by UEFA, not that European football is not association football.
Mentoz86 (
talk)
12:25, 2 April 2013 (UTC)reply
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Nazi collaborators
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The result of the discussion was:rename all. The only concern expressed relates to Austria, where the history raises some special issues. However, there is no Austrian category in this nomination, so that interesting point doesn't alter the outcome here. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
09:23, 22 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Rename as suggested. The current terminology could be confusing. "Czech Nazi collaborators" - does this refer to members of the German Nazi party that were Czech, etc.
Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)
[1]20:31, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Rename per nominator's reasoning. Current categories could be misinterpreted as the collaborators being Nazis themselves. --◅
PRODUCER (
TALK)17:26, 15 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom, but one question: in Greece's case (and probably also Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro and Slovenia), there was collaboration with Germany and Italy. Of course Germany remained the senior of the two, but for accuracy's sake, we shouldn't leave it at that. Perhaps "
Category:Fooian collaborators during World War II" or something similar might be better?
Constantine ✍ 20:20, 16 March 2013 (UTC)reply
There is already a set of categories for "Fooian collaborators with Fascist Italy". I think it better to keep them separate and apply one or both as appropriate.
Peacemaker67 (
send... over)
01:01, 17 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom. I do wonder if some of these really make sense, they seem in some cases to retroactively impose more modern nationalities, but the new names are clearly better.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
04:19, 17 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Interesting you should make that observation Jpl. I note that the Latvian and Ukrainian ones are subcats of the Soviet one, likewise with the Slovak and Czech ones being subcats of the Czechoslovak one. If this renaming is successful, the next step would probably be to CfD the ahistorical ones.
Peacemaker67 (
send... over)
10:43, 17 March 2013 (UTC)reply
But do all Nazi collaborators have collaborated with Germany? Aren't there some collaborators to Nazi Austria, for example? --
NaBUru38 (
talk)
18:28, 19 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Nazi Germany included Austria between March 1938 and 1945. If there are people that collaborated with the Austrian DNSAP prior to March 1938 then they might need their own category. Are there any non-Austrians you are aware of that collaborated with the DNSAP prior to the Anchluss?
Peacemaker67 (
send... over)
07:26, 20 March 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Jesuit popes
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Keep This is very encyclopedic. I searched hard for this information yesterday right after the election. With this, we'll be ready for the users that will want to know, many years from now when another Jesuit pope is elected, "How many other Jesuit popes have there been?", or who will want to know that tomorrow, having heard that Francis is a Jesuit bot not having heard that he is the first. If we can have category "Dutch popes" with one article, we can have this one as well.
Christhe spelleryack16:11, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep. In addition to the above, the guidelines for keeping categories requires only that they be populated. The number of listings is irrelevant.
Daniel the Monk (
talk)
16:44, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
It is now. Also
WP:SMALLCAT says this applies to categories with no potential for growth and gives as examples categories which are physically impossible to expand. I don't think that anyone can say that of this category with certainty.
Daniel the Monk (
talk)
01:20, 16 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment -- If we are to keep "Argentinian Popes" for which there is a strong consensus on the next nom below, we should keep this one too. The religious order is just as singificant. As I understand it, all modern Catholic priests belogn to one religious order or another, so that his order is a significant characteristic. (per
Peterkingiron, noted on 19 March 2013)
In point of fact, the majority of Catholic clergy are what is termed
secular clergy, in that they do not belong to a religious Order, with the commitment to group living, obedience in one's personal life to a superior and poverty, which comes with that. As indicated in the entry, the last pope to belong to a religious Order died in 1846, so Francis' belonging to one is a notable fact in the history of the papacy.
Daniel the Monk (
talk)
14:02, 20 March 2013 (UTC)reply
It might be because the President of the United States is elected directly to that office, while Prime Ministers hold elected office as members of Parliament, at least in Britain. It also might be because U.S. presidents do not neccesarily ever hold any other party office (Grant and Eisenhower never held elective office before being president, not did Hoover, although he was a cabinet secretary).
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
04:01, 21 March 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Argentine popes
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Keep In addition to the above, the guidelines for keeping categories requires only that they be populated. The number of listings is irrelevant.
Daniel the Monk (
talk)
16:46, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep as long as we have the schema of "Popes by nationality" we should have all categories for recognized nationalities. Jewish is not recognized as a nationality, and is a different issue altogether.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
21:41, 18 March 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Wonky Pop acts
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Split per nom. If individual cases are miscategorized this should be corrected on a case by case basis, and is not reason to delete the whol category.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
21:56, 18 March 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Universalism stubs
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I am the one that created this template. I created it because I thought it would be useful. If I should have followed a particular Wikipedia process before creating it I was unaware of that process. If there is indeed a recommended Wikipedia process that I should have followed I would be wiling to have this template be deleted, so long as it can then be submitted to this process to determine whether or not it merits creation or not. --
Devin Murphy (
talk)
16:13, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
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Comment. Prior to this nomination being started, I moved
Saint Peter out of this category, on the basis that I don't think we categorize as "Israeli people" people who lived in Galilee in the first century CE.
Good Ol’factory(talk)04:53, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Lists of songs by reality television contestants
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Nominator's rationale:Rename. Include 'various' to separate the list of songs by multiple contestants of a reality show from the list of songs recorded by single reality television contestants such as Girls Aloud, Kelly Clarkson etc. --
⊾maine12329⊿talk02:59, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Pope Francis
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. Only one entry. Categories are for multiple entries, not just any willy-nilly famous person. And yes, I'm aware that this the pope but that's not the point. There are dozens of popes without their own category. People are not awarded categories on the basis of how famous they are or how much they have achieved.
86.40.200.32 (
talk)
02:05, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Weak keep. As of now, this category is too small to be useful. But his predecessor's
Category:Pope Benedict XVI is very well-populated, and I would expect this one to fill up soon. I can't see much point in deleting it now, only to have it re-created in a few days or weeks. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
02:21, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
"I would expect" is guesswork, pure and simple. You have no way of knowing. No one has any way of knowing.
Nicolás Maduro became interim President of Venezuela last week. There was no rush to create a category for him despite the existence of one for his predecessor and the interest in his predecessor's demise. Categories are not created until the articles are in place. --
86.40.200.32 (
talk)
06:28, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep. Unless Francis dies very quickly, it is inevitable that this category will become populated. It doesn't take long for modern popes to be the source of notable subjects. There's a Wikipedia category for each pope at least back to 1800; I didn't bother going back further. Even
Category:Pope John Paul I (pope for only 1 month) has 9 articles. Other popes since 1950:
Category:Pope John XXIII (about 5 years),
Category:Pope Paul VI (about 15 years),
Category:Pope John Paul II (26 years),
Category:Pope Benedict XVI (8 years). Yes, there are dozens of popes without their own categories; but that is because there are lots of old things without their own categories. Dozens of ancient popes are barely supported by written records. Recent popes are a different story; saying that we can't predict that a current pope is going to have enough topics for a category is almost like saying that we can't predict that a U.S. president is going to have enough for a category. --
Closeapple (
talk)
02:49, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Categories are not created until the articles are in place. If we all go round creating categories on who we like when they have no supporting articles, Wikipedia will be full of virtually empty categories. --
86.40.200.32 (
talk)
06:28, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
I hate to break the news, but Wikipedia is full of virtually empty categories. There are tons of them. I agree, though, that this is not a good thing in most cases.
Good Ol’factory(talk)06:58, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
It is completely possible for a US president to not have enough related articles to justify a category. For example, a president could easily be assassinated die of a heart attack three days after his inauguration, and thus never actually accomplish anything that would warrant any sort of spinoff article.
Bearcat (
talk)
20:33, 18 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Except that knowing WP, we would no doubt get articles on "Inauguration of PRESIDENT", "Assassination of PRESIDENT", "Conspiracy theories about PRESIDENT", "Memorials to PRESIDENT", "Funeral of PRESIDENT", "International reaction to the assassination of PRESIDENT", etc.
Good Ol’factory(talk)22:34, 18 March 2013 (UTC)reply
How do you know that with any certainty? He could do nothing. He could do little. He could die. Anything could happen to contradict your statement. --
86.40.200.32 (
talk)
06:22, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
You base your decision on the existence of a category of a similar type? But there is a reason for that category. It is actually populated. --
86.40.200.32 (
talk)
06:22, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment based on the writings section in the article on Pope Francis, he has written 11 books. I would suspect that now that he is pope at least some of these works will come to be considered notable.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
19:16, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
The category that you cite is a great example of the ugly overexpansion of categories on wikipedia. Most of the pope categories contain a single article and themselves should not be categories.
Furorimpius (
talk)
21:29, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
I initially thought that as well. But if you click around in them you'll see that most (there is that word again) have a sizable 'Category:Documents of Pope X' nested within.
Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)
[1]21:39, 14 March 2013 (UTC)¨reply
Furorimpius, I'm afraid, you didn't understand that categorization of wiki project is not only hyponymic (as simple Linné nomenclature) but thematic and use more types of hierarchic relation than this one. There is no reason why not to accept an indivudial Pope as a categorization topic. --
ŠJů (
talk)
11:37, 15 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Since when have two articles been enough to warrant an entire category? Pope Francis is the title article - are you suggesting that categories are or should be in existence for every article that has one more related article? That would create infinite numbers of virtually empty categories. --
86.40.107.73 (
talk)
14:55, 15 March 2013 (UTC)reply
It's my fault, but that's not what I meant at all. As the current paradigm stands, this category will need to be created eventually. I don't think anyone is arguing against that (meaning they are arguing against the paradigm itself OR arguing against the early creation of this category). The comment I made above is a reason to not delete this category for being created too early. Two articles makes it have a use in the present. I didn't mean to apply it to every single possiblity, only this one.
Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)
[1]16:56, 17 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Strong keep. As Pope Francis performs more actions as pope, there will be many articles written that relate to him. Notable trips, important policy statements, etc. should all carry this category. Andrew32720:34, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Strong keep. Pope Francis is a pope, meaning there will eventually be quite a few pages relating to him, and his papacy. if you stop and think for a bit, remember that he was 'just' elected yesterday (as of CST), so of course there are not many articles pertaining to him or his papacy yet, he has only been pope for a day now. rather than waiting until we have a dozen or more articles needing to be added to the category, the category has been created to prepare for future articles. remember the 6 P's: Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance; or in this case it prevents having to go and hunt down a bunch of articles later; instead, the articles can be categorized as they are created.
Aunva6 (
talk)
00:33, 15 March 2013 (UTC)reply
I believe that the argument of those in favour of deletion is that since he has only been pope for a day now, there is currently not enough content to justify creation of a category. Some argue that we should "prepare" and create categories that we anticipate will be needed; others argue that we "wait" and only create them when they are actually needed.
Good Ol’factory(talk)01:05, 15 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep. The "delete because it isn't populated now but might be later" argument only applies if it's actually a case of
might be. A
reasonable person can assume that this category will be populated, likely extensively; it also forms part of what is likely an established category tree per the
WP:SMALLCAT exemption, per Closeapple's mentions of other pope-by-name categories above, only needing the creation of
Category:Popes by name to head it. -
The BushrangerOne ping only10:52, 15 March 2013 (UTC)reply
"a category which does have realistic potential for growth, such as a category for holders of a notable political office, may be kept even if only a small number of its articles actually exist at the present time."
That criterion refers to situations where we already know the category's ultimate population prospects, not situations where we have to speculate about them (or to
eponymous categories). For example, if Cityville is a large enough city that its mayors would generally be deemed to qualify for articles just for being mayors, then a category for "Mayors of Cityville" can be created even if nobody has actually started articles about anyone prior to the current incumbent yet — but it does not justify creating "Mayors of Palookatown" alongside it, if Palookatown is a small town whose mayors would not qualify just for being mayors. It has nothing to do with this situation; the category's population prospects are strictly speculative at best, because for example he could entirely fail to accomplish anything that would ever warrant a separate article of its own, or even die of a heart attack tomorrow and thus not even have the opportunity to even attempt to accomplish anything that would warrant a separate article of its own. We don't permit small categories on the presumption that they'll probably be expandable in the future; we create and allow categories when we (a) already need them because the articles already exist, (b) already know that the difference between a small category and a fully populated one consists of topics that are already known and just haven't actually been written yet. If you can't point to a precise list of who or what the unwritten topics are already known to be, then this criterion does not apply. And also, the criterion says that the category in question may be kept; it does not say that the category must be kept.
Bearcat (
talk)
20:30, 18 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep yes, it's almost ridiculously small for the time being but there's no sense in deleting a category when we are absolutely certain that we'll need to recreate it in the not so distant future. There are bound to be articles on some of his works and his biography will soon grow too large and parts will be spun off. An eponymous category is not an award, it's a pragmatic solution to ease navigation between articles on a common topic so the "he's undeserving" argument misses the point entirely.
Pichpich (
talk)
17:19, 15 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep as per above. It's true that this category is not so populated but very soon after, this category will be populated by pages related to him for his papacy. Like what Pichpich raised, his biography will grow and if ever, it will have a separate article like
Early life of Pope Francis like that.
Mediran (
t •
c)
01:50, 16 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Also as per the nominator said, if his concern was just because dozens of popes doesn't have their own category, then nominate and delete also
Category:Pope Benedict XVI and
Category:Pope John Paul II. We doesn't have categories about dozen of popes becaus they have lived many many many many years ago and we have little knowledge about them. That's why their WP articles are stub and if we're talking about the recent and the current popes, we have now more knowledge about them because we lived in their time. Also, categories are not awards or merits, it's a categorization of articles related to a certain subject that have a good scope and Pope Francis will be. Did you folks get what I mean? Thanks :)
Mediran (
t •
c)
01:58, 16 March 2013 (UTC)reply
So
other stuff exists - why would the Benedict and John Paul categories be deleted when they are sufficiently populated? Several days have passed now since this pope came to prominence. There was a marked interest in him for a while but that is gradually dying down - he is not in the news headlines as much as the first day, there are some trivial asides now like the
childhood sweetheart who led to where he is, and gasp, shock, horror,
he has only one lung says another (as many more besides have only one lung), etc. In that time the Pope Francis article has been fleshed out. However, there has been absolutely no sign of anything else being created - and, barring someone creating a hurried weak one sentence stub deliberately to disprove that point (
Lung of Pope Francis anyone?), there is no sign of any change in that regard. The fact remains there is still a category with no meaningful separate content to put in it apart from the conclave. --
86.40.98.160 (
talk)
10:47, 16 March 2013 (UTC)reply
WP:SMALLCAT. again, we don't need sourcing and fact for every little thing we do on wikipedia. articles need sourcing and fact, but wikipedia policy and even waht is added to article, as well as what articles are kept or deleted, are almost entirely defined by
consensus. the fact that a cat currently has few articles is not a reason to delete it if there is a reasonable expectation that it will grow significantly. consensus appears to be that the expectation that the category will grow are reasonable.
Aunva6 (
talk)
17:08, 16 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Again,
WP:SMALLCAT's "reasonable growth" exemption only applies if you can already name the gaps (e.g. 100 people have already held X job and are all notable enough for articles, but for whatever reason only two of them have actually gotten written about so far.) It does not apply to situations where the potential for growth is strictly speculative in nature.
Bearcat (
talk)
23:43, 18 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment well we have now had a third entry with the article on the Jesuit institution where Pope Francis was educated, and it is likely we will soon have articles on some of the books he has written, so I think it is clear that it has potential to grow to a reasonable size, even in the extremely unlikely event that Pope Francis dies while I am typing this.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
04:25, 17 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment I was going to continue the W. H. Harrison discussion, but could not find it. As it stands, we probably would have a category on Harrison even if he had died in 1830 before running for the presidency, at least everything we have in his category would still apply. On this matter, we have nine articles, and at least one that was in the category has been removed.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
04:08, 21 March 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Croatian Nazis
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale: This category was created on 14 March 2013 and is factually incorrect. The people in this category were Croatian
Ustaše (which was a fascist organisation that ruled an Axis puppet state during WWII), and were not members of the German NSDAP.
Category:Ustaše already exists and is the appropriate category for these people. The subcategory of
Category:Croatian Nazi collaborators needs renaming, but I will address this separately, as there are other "X Naxi collaborators" categories that need changing too.
Peacemaker67 (
send... over)
01:23, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete per nominator's rationale. One might colloquially call the Ustashe "Nazis" (after all, they did not fall short of the real thing in any way), but precision in naming is necessary for historical accuracy.
Constantine ✍ 20:14, 16 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom, not the same thing, and is potentially confusing. If we compare their respective ideologies, there are significant differences, even if the core is essentially the same.
GregorB (
talk)
12:22, 17 March 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Illegitimate children of popes
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale:Rename. The "illegitimate" is not necessary in this context, particularly as there is no possibility of confusion with other types of children. It also may be derogatory,
particularly right now, with the likelihood that some of the contents of this category may be currently living people.
86.40.200.32 (
talk)
00:26, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
"Popes shouldn't have children, PEEEERIOD!" is not a reason for opposing. Popes do have, and have had, children - as demonstrated above. --
86.40.200.32 (
talk)
06:32, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Oppose Actually it is possible for someone to be a legitimate child of a Pope. A-because until about AD 1000 the Catholic Church allowed married priests, although they began discouraging it sooner than that. B-because to the present day certain rites of the Catholic Church allow for married priests, and converts who held ecclesiastical office in certain other Christian Churches (such as Anglican Churches and Lutheran Churches) can be made Catholic Priests, and most importantly 3-men who have in the past been married can be made priests if their wife is deceased. So no, not all children of Popes are illegitimate.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
05:26, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
The question remains. A small number of popes have had a small number of children. So small is the number why do they need to be split into legitimate and illegitimate? Why not one category called
Category:Children of popes? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
86.40.200.32 (
talk •
contribs)
I have already mentioned one possible reason. This category is within the
Category:Illegitimate children of monarchs tree. It's not absolutely necessary to keep popes' illegitimate children in a subcategory within this tree, but if a user wants to keep them within this tree as a subcategory, it is a reason to oppose the renaming. Also, if considerations turn to whether we should have both—we don't generally categorize people by what position their parent held. An exception is the illegitimate children of monarchs tree.
Good Ol’factory(talk)07:43, 14 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Supercategorize with the suggested category, the current becoming a subcategory of it, allowing categorization into the illegitimate tree, and the standard tree. --
65.92.180.137 (
talk)
04:43, 15 March 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment -- Since for the last 1000+ years, no pope is supposed to have married, the children will necessarily be illegitimate; accordingly, it must be the same as
Category:Children of popes. I suspect that the children were is fact usually passed off as nephews or nieces. There is a good reason for having an illegitimate category for monarch's children, because they cannot inherit the crown. We may also need a morganatic children category for them (children or marriages with commoners who could not inherit the crown). That issue does not arise in respect of an elective monarchy such as the papacy.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
17:40, 19 March 2013 (UTC)reply
No, as pointed out above, not all children of popes were illegitimate, so saying "children of popes" is not the same as saying "illegitimate children of popes".
Good Ol’factory(talk)22:07, 20 March 2013 (UTC)reply
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