Category:Companies listed on the SWX Swiss Exchange
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Comment - I'm wondering if this might be better served as a list, which can capture such additional encyclopedic information as the date the stock was listed, ticker symbol, previous names of the exchange, previous companies of the exchange and so on. If I were researching stock exchanges I would find that much more valuable than a bare alphabetical list. If kept the rename to match the current exchange name.
Otto4711 (
talk)
05:03, 30 December 2008 (UTC)reply
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The disambiguation is not needed, as it is not used in the articles about the places, also the capitalisation should be changed to match most other "civil parishes" categories. —
Snigbrook17:08, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Comment The use of "in" may be standard for categories, but that does not mean it always has to be used instead of "of", and I would like clarification of where any stipulation of "in" being used in preference to "of" here can be found. In the case of some districts in the
United Kingdom, the use of "in" would lead to clumsy wording:
Category:Civil parishes of The Isle of Wight reads better than
Category:Civil parishes in The Isle of Wight. If it is accepted that there needs to be some flexibility in the use of "in" versus "of", then there remains the question of whether the preposition chosen should be uniform across all such similar categories.
DDStretch (talk)17:42, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Keep until April than change to the unitary names. I think in fact that "Cheshire" is a desirable part of the name. Not every one will know that Vale Royal is a Cheshire district.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
18:59, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:Folk Heroes
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Nominator's rationale: Delete. "Folk heroism" is an inherently POV status. There is no way to objectively define who should and should not belong in this category. The same person will be considered a folk hero by some and yet be reviled by others. "Hero" is one of those words that usually does not work in category names for real people. The only article in the category right now is
Muntadhar al-Zaidi, a.k.a. the guy who threw his shoes as G. W. Bush. Notified creator with {{
subst:cfd-notify}}Good Ol’factory(talk)13:34, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Kepp - Well, to be honest with you, I created this category because the U.S. press was reporting the al-Zaidi (whom I consider to be a lowly thug) is considered a "folk hero" among some people in the Middle East. My objective is to only reflect this reported reality. I actually do not feel too strongly about this issue, so I am not going to a put a staunch defense for it.
Jonniefast (
talk)
12:40, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Delete -- In/exclusion depends totally on the editor's POV. I suppose
Robin Hood might belong, but I expect he is in a rather more satisfactory category than this one. I have no view on
Muntadhar al-Zaidi, but think that he currently comes into the category of those who are "famous for 15 minutes" (or perhaps 15 days, in this case). Such people are generally NN.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
20:04, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Delete - per above, this is a bit of a subjective call. I'm not sure it reflects anything that isn't listed in the article
Folk heroes. At some point, anyone about whom there is a legend is a folk hero in some respect.
Wildhartlivie (
talk)
22:40, 1 January 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Quilt museum
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Comment (nominator). I can agree to keeping after pluralizing now that the category has been somewhat populated. (And now that I have my idea for what to do with myself over the holidays, I'm off to the local quilt museum ...)
Good Ol’factory(talk)16:15, 30 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Rename - agree to rename as Quilt museums, keep as a subcategory of Textile museums, which also include costumes, art and other fabric-related items. This will keep it easier to group for quilter's use and for museum classifications.
Jllm06 (
talk)
15:39, 4 January 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:People by alphabet
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Delete -- I think that some months ago we discussed lists of biographies and deleted them. The purpose is presumably to make biographic articles available alphbetically, but there are so many that this is a hopeless enterprise. If I want an article on a particular person, I search for the name, not look in a category.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
19:57, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Delete, there are better ways to sort people than such categories. Besides, too many people and that makes cat useless. --Tone12:04, 31 December 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:Lymphoid skin diseases
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Nominator's rationale:Rename. I started the
WP:DERM taskforce, and have been working to categorize dermatology articles in an organized fashion. The proposed categorization scheme is specifically at
Wikipedia:WikiProject_Medicine/Dermatology_task_force/Categorization, which was developed from discussions at the main wikipedia medicine page (see that link for more details). As per that scheme, the "Lymphoid skin diseases" category should probably be renamed to "Lymphoid-related skin conditions" as the scope of the category is a bit larger than simply lymphoid diseases, also containing conditions caused by lymphoid disease, such as
acquired ichthyosis (see
List_of_skin-related_conditions#Lymphoid-related for a listing of all the diseases considered part of this category, some of which are not specifically "lymphoid diseases").
kilbad (
talk)
12:58, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:Family films
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Delete due to subjectivity concerns. I think Otto's right that this "genre" is considerably more subjective than most, even though all to some degree are a matter of POV. By saying something is a "family film" commentators are basically saying it's "appropriate for children". Unfortunately, in most cultures that watch films, different people have vastly different opinions about what is and is not appropriate for children to watch. A "family film" to a devout Mormon in Utah is going to be something quite different from what Roger Ebert might say is one. Some people use MPAA ratings to decide what is "family"; others use websites like the
ChildCare Action Project that count up the cuss words and assess how tight the women's shirts are and how many times the "camera angle forces the viewer on private parts". (For most movies, reading the CAP review is really more entertainment that seeing the movie.) Otto's anecdotal examples are also on point here.
Good Ol’factory(talk)11:59, 3 January 2009 (UTC)reply
Using the "devout Mormon" example can be applied to any film genre. Should films like Dumbo and Bambi be classed as childrens' films (both have dubious content)? When is an action film actually action? Ditto a comedy film. By definition there is some POV in all film genres. Family film to me, means suitable for your average 2.4 family, and not one that lived in a cellar in Austria. I think deleting this would be the thin end of the wedge! Lugnuts (
talk)
17:39, 3 January 2009 (UTC)reply
What is an "average 2.4 family" (are such families even the "average" any more?) and how do editors determine that a film is "suitable" for such a family without resorting to personal opinion and original research?
Otto4711 (
talk)
15:07, 4 January 2009 (UTC)reply
The fact that this may be the thin edge of the wedge is not enough to convince me that this isn't irredeemably POV. Sure, other genres also have definitional and subjectivity problems. That doesn't mean we need to keep (what I view as) the most problematic one around.
Good Ol’factory(talk)21:34, 4 January 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:People convicted of alcohol-related driving offenses
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The result of the discussion was:delete
Category:Politicians charged with alcohol-related driving offenses, no consensus on the two convicted categories. Yes, I know what the vote counts are, but as always, CFD isn't a vote count. There, that said, while three people here did want to keep the convicted categories, that is not in my mind enough to overcome the vast consensus of the other linked CFD's, and the fact that these are recreations of deleted content. Plus, the nominator is correct in that a drink driving conviction is not defining for
Michael Phelps (or Ditka or Cheney or Ross, etc).
Kbdank7115:37, 8 January 2009 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Delete all. These categories are essentially the re-creation of previously deleted categories under slightly different names and criteria. While they may be valid list material, they are certainly not defining for the vast majority of those included in them, and typically they represent a minor point in the person's biography. (To wit: included in the categories are
George Best.
Dick Cheney,
Mike Ditka,
Tony La Russa,
Sam Nunn,
Haley Joel Osment,
Michael Phelps,
Diana Ross, and
Busta Rhymes. It's defining for none of these people, and this is just a sample of those included.) As such these should be deleted as categories and listified if wanted. Adding to the case for listification is the need for solid and clear references if these events are going to be applied to the people involved. Similar categories have previously been deleted numerous times:
I still don't see how it's defining for politicians such as Dick Cheney and Sam Nunn, even if they are being held to certain standards of behavior. It could be years in their past and relatively irrelevant to their political life.
Good Ol’factory(talk)13:36, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
I think what's important is not merely the offense, but also how they responded to it -- i.e. how it may have helped shape their character (or not). I'm not exactly a fan of Dick Cheney (to put it mildly), but his response to having been a repeat offender speaks well for him. It's certainly the sort of thing that citizens look for when evaluating the character of a politician -- but hardly relevant for football players or comedians.
Cgingold (
talk)
14:11, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Keep the two convicted of cats and Delete the "charged with". I fail to see how being convicted of a serious criminal offense is not defining for anyone.
Kernel Saunters (
talk)
17:16, 4 January 2009 (UTC)reply
You seriously think
Sam Nunn is defined by his drunk-driving accident in 1964? Throughout 2008, Nunn was constantly mentioned by the media as a an advisor and potential running mate or cabinet member of Obama's, yet I myself didn't hear a breath about this incident. If it's so defining, you'd think it would be mentioned sometimes and have some sort of effect on his career prospects.
Good Ol’factory(talk)21:41, 5 January 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Kilinochi District
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Category:Indian adult models
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Category:Indian porn stars
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Category:Pius popes
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Nominator's rationale: Delete. Defined as "Popes who went by the name Pius". This is the only category of its kind; it is also incomplete. This concept of shared papal names has been addressed by individual articles in
Category:Papal names. For this name, the concept is adequately covered at
Pope Pius, which contains a list of the "Pius popes" with links to each of their articles. Essentially, this is categorization by shared name, which is inappropriate. See an old
similar CfD. Notified creator with {{
subst:cfd-notify}}Good Ol’factory(talk)10:03, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom. The list already exists, and they have little to nothing in common save the name. A category implicitly suggests that there's more to it. A navbox template would be okay, too.
Cgingold (
talk)
15:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:Washington
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Nominator's rationale:Test nomination. This is a test nomination to see if there is either (1) consensus for using "Washington (state)" instead of "Washington" in category names; or (2) consensus to keep using "Washington" in category names when the state is referred to. I bring this up because there have been somewhat contradictory results reached in two cases in the past year:
here it was agreed to convert categories with "Washington state" or "Washington (state)" to "Washington", but
here there was no consensus for a nearly identical change. If the consensus is to rename, I agree to nominate all of the "Washington" categories for renaming. If there is consensus to use "Washington", I suggest we use it consistently. If there is no consensus for either, I give up. Note that the article is at
Washington, but there have been some rumblings on the talk page (nothing formally proposed yet) about making that page a DAB page since most people in the world in fact probably think of "Washington, D.C." when the word "Washington" is used. Solicited
WikiProject Washington and
WikiProject District of Columbia for input.Good Ol’factory(talk)06:24, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Oppose, the categories should match the corresponding article. It doesn't take any time to figure out that you've got the wrong category or article once you see it.
Murderbike (
talk)
19:22, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Support – categories should be named unambiguously even if editors (usually following some local agenda) have settled on article names which are not optimal. I'd probably go for (State) or (US State) per
Georgia (US State).
Occuli (
talk)
21:38, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Support the rename, per
WP:NCCAT, specifically Choose category names that are able to stand alone, independent of the way a category is connected to other categories.. -
Neier (
talk)
06:24, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Question (nominator). Just a question on form to those supporting the use of "Washington (U.S. state)". Wouldn't the general principles of disambiguating suggest having "U.S." is not necessary, since there is no non-U.S. state called "Washington"? This is unlike Georgia, where there is a non-U.S. state (i.e. a country) named "Georgia". Since we are mainly disambiguating against "Washington, D.C.", which is a U.S. district, should "(state)" be the only required disambiguation term? Is the concern that just using "(state)" implies that it is a country unless we specify "U.S. state"? (I can support either disambiguation term—I just think we should get it right on the first try, especially if I'm going to nominate however many of Washington categories there are.)
Good Ol’factory(talk)04:21, 31 December 2008 (UTC)reply
I'm not sure that we use disambiguation forms for the sake of consistency when the one being matched to is a somewhat different case (there being a country of the same name).
Good Ol’factory(talk)05:32, 1 January 2009 (UTC)reply
Rename to
Category:Washington (U.S. state). I'm tired of needing to figure out which type of disambiguation form is used in specific cases. Just use the same form when it is needed. I think that does not violate the MOS, makes it look like we actually know what a style sheet is and is not confusing or ambiguous (what is a state).
Vegaswikian (
talk)
06:24, 2 January 2009 (UTC)reply
Comment (nom). Either is fine with me as nominator. I just don't want to screw up by nominating them all using the wrong term, so whatever the admin closer of this discussion renames it to (assuming it will be) will be what I use on the future ones. (On the future nomination, I can just see someone who opposes the renames sarcastically asking, "so where is the non-U.S. state of Washington that we're disambiguating against?") Right now I think I can see perhaps a slight preference for "(U.S. state)" in the comments above, and the consistency with Georgia would be a virtue, in my opinion.
Good Ol’factory(talk)11:46, 3 January 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Civil Air Patrol Equipment
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Nominator's rationale: Delete Nominating
Category:Civil Air Patrol Equipment and
Category:Civil Air Patrol Emergency Services. Both are very underpopulated, with the first having only one article and one subcat, and the second having three articles, two of which already exist in other CAP categories (the third can easily be moved to the main CAP category). I also see very little potential for growth, at least in the immediate future...it's not like the main CAP category is overly populated. —
Huntster (
t •
@ •
c)05:19, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Yes, I should have made that clear as well. The Aircraft subcategory would go too, for the reason you suggest. Regarding Emergency Services, while it may one day merit its own article, I don't think a possible future use is valid grounds for its existance now. Everything would indeed be upmerged. —
Huntster (
t •
@ •
c)08:16, 31 December 2008 (UTC)reply
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Category:Parishes of the United Kingdom
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The result of the discussion was:no consensus to rename. (There was no support expressed for the proposed renaming and those who did comment expressed only the sense that they saw no need for change.)Good Ol’factory(talk)01:15, 5 January 2009 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:Rename. More accurate name, and consistent with other "civil parishes in" categories. "Parish" has different meanings in different localities. All
categories should be clear if they contain civil (or geographical) parishes or church parishes. Note that
this discussion of the same question (closed to divide the question) resulted in 5Support rename votes, 1Oppose vote, and 2 that abstained on these categories. All the English parishes were changed without opposition. (The word "in" is also preferred in Wikipedia category names.)
Comment The use of "in" may be standard for categories, but that does not mean it always has to be used instead of "of", and I would like clarification of where any stipulation of "in" being used in preference to "of" here can be found. In the case of some districts in the
United Kingdom, the use of "in" would lead to clumsy wording:
Category:Civil parishes of The Isle of Wight reads better than
Category:Civil parishes in The Isle of Wight. If it is accepted that there needs to be some flexibility in the use of "in" versus "of", then there remains the question of whether the preposition chosen should be uniform across all such similar categories.
DDStretch (talk)17:41, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Support for England, except the "winchester" category, which may be ecclesiastical parishes, as Winchester is a diocese not a county. No strong view on rest, but I see no need to change, since (except in the Channel Isles), parishes do not have local authority status.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
18:56, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Comment -- expanding on last item: See
Parish. IN England, parishes have a parish countcil or parish meeting, which is the lowest tier of local government. IN the Channel Isles, parishes also have local governmetn powers (e.g. refuse collection). Changes since the 1890s have meant that civil and ecclesiastical parishes are always no longer co-terminous. In Wales the equivalnet is "communities". IN the rest of UK and Ireland, I think that parishes are mere territorial divisions, and that it is unlikely that reorganisations have meant that civil and ecclesiastical parishes have diverged.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
19:21, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Further clarification -- As a parish councillor I am very familiar with the nature of an English civil parish. As I historian, I often deal with 19th century and earlier parishes, when civil and ecclesiatical parishes were identical. In my own parish a change in the ecclesiastical parish boundaries in the 1880s led to an area being lost to the parish for civil purposes as well as ecclesiastical. However when a further change to the boundary of an adjacent ecclesiatical parish in the next parish in the 1930s, it made no difference to the boundary of the civil parish. IN this way civil and ecclesiastical parishes have diverged in England. Parishes have Parish Councils; ecclesiatical parishes have parochial church councils. Both have ultimately replaced vestries. Even this is a slight simplification. However this means that for England, it is useful to distingish civil from ecclesiatical. However, I am not convinced that this is necessary elsewhere. I am not suggesting that an English Parish Council is not a local authority; absolutely the reverse. They are the lowest tier of lcoal authority.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
19:53, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Reply I am not inticating with the name change that these parishes all have an active government structure. In some cases it is a only carry-over that is relfected only in local deeds and such. The purpose to identify these categories as not church parish categories-- and thus not a place for people to categorize their own favorite local church, even if that church has the word "parish" in the name, like these:
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Category:Parishes of Wales
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The result of the discussion was:withdrawn by nominator. Close is without prejudice to a future nom for renaming along the lines of the ideas in the discussion.
Good Ol’factory(talk)01:09, 5 January 2009 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:Rename. More accurate name, and consistent with other "civil parishes in" categories. "Parish" has different meanings in different localities. All
categories should be clear if they contain civil (or geographical) parishes or church parishes. Note that
this discussion of the same question (closed to divide the question) resulted in 5Support rename votes, 1Oppose vote, wanting "
Communities of Wales", and 2 that abstained on these categories. (The word "in" is also preferred in Wikipedia category names.)
Note: the categories currently contain some pages about localities that are "both a village and a parrish", and "villages" that are either incorrectly placed here or also a parrish. I have looked at much more than these pages listed and the categories do reflect civil and not just church parishes.--Carlaude(
talk)03:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
The proposed renaming is withdrawn. In the future I will propose something along these lines to differenate from the current categories:
Comment The use of "in" may be standard for categories, but that does not mean it always has to be used instead of "of", and I would like clarification of where any stipulation of "in" being used in preference to "of" here can be found. In the case of some districts in the
United Kingdom, the use of "in" would lead to clumsy wording:
Category:Civil parishes of The Isle of Wight reads better than
Category:Civil parishes in The Isle of Wight. If it is accepted that there needs to be some flexibility in the use of "in" versus "of", then there remains the question of whether the preposition chosen should be uniform across all such similar categories.
DDStretch (talk)17:40, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Comment The local government system is different from England to Wales. In Wales the equivalent to the English Parish is the Community. The name of the category should reflect this.
Agathoclea (
talk)
19:35, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
I agree with the above comment, but wonder whether the content of the categories deal with historical areas, which were known as parishes? In which case, the name should stay as it is (though I would doubt their usefulness), and new categories which use "communities" should be used. If not, then use "communities" instead of "civil parishes".
DDStretch (talk)19:44, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Comment As I tried to show above
Category:Communities of Wales will not work because that Category name is already taken for another purpose. "Category:Communities of Such-and-such" is a standard parent category name for "Category:Cities of Such-and-such", "Category:Towns of Such-and-such", etc. --Carlaude(
talk)16:05, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Comment Then that is a matter that needs to be sorted out by standard means for disambiguation, rather than using an incorrect term that is only of historical and defunct use in Wales. In that respect, it almost becomes a wikipedia neologism to apply it to the communities that are meant here in Wales.
DDStretch (talk)16:28, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Comment I am open to some sort of disambiguation but
The categories would still need different names, which you have yet to propose.
Citing a sourse for you claim that "communities" is prefered over "parish" is advised since a number of articles do use the word parish and not community. --Carlaude(
talk)17:00, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
I think you have the burden of proof requirements mixed up here: it is up to you to prove, convince and demonstrate why the proposed changes should be used; it is not up to us to prove why some other scheme should be used. (The
Burden of Proof article, though uncited at this point, does adequately describe the situation as outlined in various academic books dealing with the logic of argument and discussion: "Under the Latin maxim necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit, the general rule is that "the necessity of proof lies with he who complains." The burden of proof, therefore, usually lies with the party making the new claim.", which, as nominator, is you, and I can provide reliable sources for this if you so desire.) As it stands, the term "parish" was used in Wales, but is now defunct, and "Communities" is used. That may partly explain some of the confusion in some articles, and a confusion between using "parish" in an ecclesiastical sense may explain some others. Now, once again, it is not up to us to prove that this is the case, it is up to you to show that it is not the case: that is how the burden of proof operates, since you, as nominator, are the one proposing the specific change. However, as a courtesy, the current use of "Community" can be seen in any number of reliable sources. For example, in any of Ordnance Survey 1:25000 maps which cover parts of Wales on which the boundaries are marked for these areas, and labelled with the name and initial "C" which, we can see from reading the keys, is meant to mean "Community" (The ref for this is any OS Survey map 1:25000 scale or "Explorer Map". The one I used is Sheet 266: "Wirral and Chester/Caer" which includes areas in Wales, isbn: 0319236544). For another reference, one can also see the use of "community" if one looks at, say
this official UK government site which gives details of
Bangor Is-y-coed's returns in the UK 2001 census, and that place is in Wales. It is clearly shown to be "Bangor Is-y-coed Community", and any other similar area will also have the word "community" used. But this is what the reliable sources state rather than going by what wikipedia states and which you have used, above, which is always to be avoided, as wikipedia cannot be used as a source. Now, do you want me to provide yet more reliable sources, or is this sufficient to convince that "Community" is the official term in use for these areas in Wales now?
DDStretch (talk)17:45, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Rename but to
Category:Communities of Wales, which I believe is the correct term for them. I am not sure why the term "parish" was replaced by "community" in Wales for the lowest tier of local government, but understand this to have happened. It may have eben a consequence of opposition to church rates in the 19th century and to the disestablishment of the Church in Wales, leading to legislation placing a distance between civil and ecclesiastical parishes.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
19:05, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Comment I think this needs a close and possibly longer look.
Community council gives enough info to go by for the naming - I'd go so far as to say that there are some English Communities rather than parishes going by that article. The content of
Category:Communities of Wales at the fist level seems ok, at the second level I looked at
Category:Communities of Pembrokeshire brings the above mentioned
Steynton - as far as I am aware and a search at
www.pembrokeshire.gov.uk has given no contrary evidence is part of the North Ward of
Milford Haven Town Council (where "Town" is just a special elected style of "Community") so the existing content must be looked at and possibly re-targeted. A google search for Steynton Parish brings
www.steynton.org.uk/ and some historic information.
Agathoclea (
talk)
20:42, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Certainly in some urban areas within the UK which have been
unparished (in the "civil parish" sense) for a while, new local area committees have sometimes been set up which operate at the same level as civil parishes and which are called "communities" (with either council or committee after them) because I was considered for the chairman of such a committee for such an area in
Stoke on Trent, but declined it for reasons not relevant here. I agree that the entire area needs more attention, and I and some fellow members of the
Uk Geography project have been intending to set up a task force with the specific job of looking at and suggesting how the coverage of civil parish-level areas and authorities can be improved in relevant articles on wikipedia for a number of months now (certainly way before this current round of nominations for changes in category names).
DDStretch (talk)01:06, 30 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Post-mortem The nom has been withdrawn but with the comment to discuss the nominators possible future proposal. A category
Category:Communities in Ceredigion will need no disambiguation as in "former parishes". In fact some of those communities might not have been parishes pre-1974. Also while some content of
Category:Parishes of Wales are clearly
communities the expressed headline to the category points towards the church not current local government. So rather than renaming I suggest to take a good look at the needed category tree and establish a functioning system and move articles which wrongly are in
Category:Parishes of Wales to where they should be.
Agathoclea (
talk)
11:16, 31 December 2008 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Parishes of Europe
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale:Rename. More accurate name, and consistent with other "civil parishes in" categories. "Parish" has different meanings in different localities. All
categories should be clear if they contain civil (or geographical) parishes or church parishes. Note that
this discussion of the same question (closed to divide the question) resulted in 5Support rename votes, 1Oppose vote, and 2 that abstained on these categories. (The word "in" is also preferred in Wikipedia category names.)
Oppose The use of "civil parishes" is in use in the
United Kingdom to distinguish the civil parishes from
ecclesiastical parishes, but I am not convinced that this confusion or convention is in use outside the UK. Unless it is, I see no reason to make the changes. Additionally, although "in" may be used for categories, I do not see where its use is stipulated over the use of "of" which my readong of the naming conventions suggests is also acceptable. The same point can be made about all the other nominations concerning (civil) parishes which suggest a change of the use of "of" to "in".
DDStretch (talk)18:18, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Clarification of my oppose Because Carlaude has disputed the matter with me on my talk page
User talk:Ddstretch#Category:Parishes of Europe, it may be an idea to clarify what I meant here, since there does seem to be some confusion: The issue is not whether any of examples given above are of ecclesiastical parishes or not, rather it it whether the term "civil parish" has any formal use in Europe. It does in the United Kingdom, but the United Kingdom is not Europe, and vice versa. If it does not, then the term as applied to the whole of Europe is just a wikipedian neologism which may not be useful or accurate to use at all here. Different states use different terms for entities that may be more or less the same kind of entity as used in different countries. However, I think we should resist falling into the trap of too easily using one official term that is used in one country in another, when such a term may not be used and may have no official basis at all. Furthermore, it is up to the nominator to supply convincing reasons why such terms are in use in the countries.
DDStretch (talk)16:33, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Reply I am not inticating with the name change that these parishes all have an active government structure. In some cases it is a only carry-over that is relfected only in local deeds and such. The purpose to identify these categories as not church parish categories-- and thus not a place for people to categorize their own favorite local church, even if that church has the word "parish" in the name, like these:
Oppose -- Unless there are other countries than parts of UK where the parish is a unit of civil administration, there is no need for a change. The suggestion just above this is far to complicated to be practicable.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
19:08, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Oppose -- (apart from the of/in - I don't care either way) the categories must reflect local usage. If that can't be unified a more neutral name has to be found. "Tier 1 of Local government"? Then all similar categories can be included - I am thinking of
Category:Municipalities of GermanyAgathoclea (
talk)
06:37, 30 December 2008 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Parishes of North America
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale:Rename. More accurate name, and consistent with other "civil parishes in" categories. "Parish" has different meanings in different localities. All
categories should be clear if they contain civil (or geographical) parishes or church parishes. Note that
this discussion of the same question (closed to divide the question) resulted in 5Support rename votes, 2Oppose vote, and 1 that abstained on these categories. (The word "in" is also preferred in Wikipedia category names.)
Oppose. Louisiana, unless it can be show that there is a legal position to call these a civil parish. As far as I know they are simply called parishes. Renamings like this is ignoring the local usage. If they need to roll up into a
Category:Parishes (political) that may be fine. But in the US it is clear what they are.
Vegaswikian1 (
talk)
17:59, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
I am sure in Louisiana simply called parishes but Wikipedia is world wide. There was confusion or the meaning of it in just
this last discussion! How can you say there is no confusion?
What part of
civil parish implies that these might be included? First off, they are the highest level of organization in the state rather then the lowest. Civil parishes appear to be a UK style of government so tagging with such a category name would be completely wrong
Vegaswikian (
talk)
00:22, 31 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Oppose The use of "civil parishes" is in use in the
United Kingdom to distinguish the civil parishes from
ecclesiastical parishes, but I am not convinced that this confusion or convention is in use outside the UK. Unless it is, I see no reason to make the changes. Additionally, although "in" may be used for categories, I do not see where its use is stipulated over the use of "of" which my readong of the naming conventions suggests is also acceptable. The same point can be made about all the other nominations concerning (civil) parishes which suggest a change of the use of "of" to "in"
DDStretch (talk)18:15, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Did you even look ar the sample articles? What makes you think they are ecclesiastical parishes? or even mitch be ecclesiastical parishes? --Carlaude(
talk)16:33, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Do these entities all get the official name "civil parishes" or not in these countries? If not, should we be making it appear that the name "civil parish" is somehow an official name in use there? Why not use the term which is used in that country for them? If this leads to some confusion, then deal with by means of the disambiguation strategies, a helpful advice section at the header of the category, or by careful watch of the categories and advice to people if they allocate an article incorrectly, as would be the normal way of dealing with additions.
DDStretch (talk)16:59, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
The reason that disambiguation pages and notes are of limited use with categories is because editors can and do add an article to a category without ever looking at the category page. --Carlaude(
talk)17:12, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Which is more silly: Using a term "civil parish" that has no apparent official basis in these countries, some of which don't even use English (and so the translation of the term actually used needs to be considered), when the official name for these entities is merely "parish" or whatever term is used in the language the country uses, and which could and should be handled by means of standard disambiguation terms; or biting the bullet and sticking with the official verified translated terms that are used within each country, whereupon the standard careful monitoring of editors' behaviour in adding article to the categories is all that is needed to sort this out? Should we be sacrificing accuracy and verifiability to handle the inconvenience of editors who do not take enough care in favour of dealing with editing errors by introducing a term that may contravene
WP:OR,
WP:SYNTHESIS or both by being not used in these countries, but, in the way it is being proposed to be used, appears to give it some official status?
DDStretch (talk)18:10, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Comment: Or better yet what place is/are the civil Parish(es) that brought on this nomination? The Caribbean islands (most of them) are mainly just simple parishes now nothing more nothing less. "Civil Parish" is a really a place that has a whole level of government to it. (in its modern day form) Or Civil harishes had a main Parish Church (a.k.a a Vestry) with Civil Councils etc. (in the more archaic form). It would be better to look at the place that the proposal for "Civil Parish" came from to look at its system of Government.
Well, maybe the nominator needs to show that civil parishes exist outside of the UK. The article implies that the use of this type of government structure is limited to the UK.
Vegaswikian1 (
talk)
08:23, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
This nomination sort of seems like splitting hairs to me. Considering that everything now fits under current "Parishes of x" system. Once you start trying to break up what is an: "A Parish (type)", "B Parish (type)", and "C parish (type)" it seems to me like things will get way more complicated then the existing naming convention. Fundamentally it is one of those things that you have to know the whole
Westminster system of Government. There's also all kinds of technicalities. e.g. South Carolina's Parishes were based off the ones in Barbados too. See
here Note #3. near the bottom (quote) "In 1706 Parishes were set up within the bounds of the existing Counties. Neither the Counties nor the Parishes were divisions of the other, they just coexisted, with the Parish actually having the record keeping authority. The original Parishes of 1706 were Saint John's, Saint James Goose Creek, Saint Thomas, Saint Denis, Christ Church, Saint Philip's, Saint Andrew's, Saint James Santee, Saint Bartholomew's and Saint Paul's." That's more or less the story of many Parishes today, they are just there.
CaribDigita (
talk)
20:26, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Comment: The problem is that we are not writing for the convenience of wikipedia's naming conventions here, but for the purpose of reflecting the verifiable state of affairs that the encyclopaedia tries to describe for its readers. In this respect, your comment of "This nomination sort of seems like splitting hairs to me. Considering that everything now fits under current "Parishes of x" system. Once you start trying to break up what is an: "A Parish (type)", "B Parish (type)", and "C parish (type)" it seems to me like things will get way more complicated then the existing naming convention." doesn't really help. On a point of information, in the United Kingdom, the parish system of local government emerged gradually out of the ancient parishes from the time of the dissolution of the monasteries, when some civil duties were assigned to the ancient parishes and their administration. Over the years, more and more civil duties were assigned to the ancient parish administrations (which were called "vestries") until the complete reform led to the formal dissociation of civil duties from ecclesiastical duties, and so
civil parishes and
ecclesiastical parishes (in their current form) were born, with the civil parishes being administered by either parish councils, parish meetings, or by the local government district in which they were placed if the local arrangements for parish-level administration was not put in place. Vestries came from the time before civil parishes formally existed (i.e., from the time of the ancient parishes). I can cite a formal book reference for this if desired. So, in the case of the United Kingdom, I think it may be tedious to some editors, but still quite important to accurately and verifiably describe the entities and their names for the readers. If the matter doesn't interest one, then don't get involved in it, but I don't think it is useful to argue against the clarifications, renames, and page moves just because they don't fit in so cleanly and nicely with some administrative conventions adopted by wikipedia. They are reasonable proposals to have been made, even though I happen to think they should not go through in their present form.
DDStretch (talk)23:29, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Reply I am not inticating with the name change that these parishes all have an active government structure. In some cases it is a only carry-over that is relfected only in local deeds and such. The purpose to identify these categories as not church parish categories-- and thus not a place for people to categorize their own favorite local church, even if that church has the word "parish" in the name, like these:
Strongly oppose for Louisiana -- there parishes are the equivalent of counties in other US states, and they are called "parishes", not civil parishes. Weakly oppose for the rest (but I do not have the requisite knowledge). The whole problem with this series of nominations is that it is trying to find a one size fits all solution, and life is not that simple: different counties have differenet arrangements, and WP has to reflect that. Conceivably "Civil Parish" might be appropriate as a parent category, but not otherwise.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
19:14, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Cape Verdean American sportspeople
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: Delete All of these categories are non-notable intersections. What does being of Cape Verdean descent have to do with your ability to play sports, music or be in politics? Also, a similar
cfd for Nigerian American sportspeople came up over the summer and it was upmerged.
Thomas.macmillan (
talk)
01:49, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Comment I created this and the politicians one below after seeing the -musicians category, which was created by someone else. I found the musicians one useful and decided to implement the same model to help sort the people in the Cape Verdean Americans category. Note that I am referring to usefulness, not notability. That these are intersections should not be a problem in my opinion; many (I'd dare say most) of the current categories are such -- consider "American sportspeople" or "African American sportspeople", both parents of this category. If your argument were to be upheld, at the bare minimum all the subcategories of
Category:American musicians by ethnic or national origin would have to be deleted as well -- not to mention any other similarly named categories. I don't think that would be useful for the project. On a final note, I don't see why you'd call this overcategorization when these subcategories are well over a few entries. I believe it's much better for the end user to have these entries separated logically (which afterall is the very aim of the categorization system), when most people simply don't have knowledge of the tools (FreeBase, CatScan, etc.) to perform complex intersections, nor the ability (or willingness) do do such manually. Not to mention that those tools are still very primitive, while the semantic web is still forming. For all this I think these categories should be kept. --
Waldirtalk09:59, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Clear Keep - The
Cape Verdean American community is quite distinctive, and as such should not be dispensed with in such a cavalier way. I'm sure nobody would suggest that their ethnicity has anything to do with their "ability" to do any of these things -- so that question amounts to a
strawman argumentpar excellence. In fact, these are all notable intersections -- just as they are for other ethnic groups. Yet this singles out one of the 17 sibling categories of
Category:American sportspeople by ethnic or national origin.
Cgingold (
talk)
11:11, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Further comment - I was heavily focussed on some other CFDs at the time of the one for Nigerian American sportspeople, but I think that it was probably a mistake to completely erase the distinction between Nigerian American immigrants and African Americans. In any event, with only two people favoring an upmerge, and one person expressing doubts, it's a pretty slender reed to cite as a precedent. If I had weighed in, it probably would have been closed "no concensus".
Cgingold (
talk)
11:21, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Just because other categories exist does not make it correct. Anyway, if you would like more precedent, just read
wp:OC which gives "
German-American sportspeople", which was deleted in 2006, as an example of a non-notable intersection of ethnicity, religion or sexual preference. I see no difference between Cape Verdean Americans and German-Americans in terms of notability.--
Thomas.macmillan (
talk)
19:47, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
The issue that you're overlooking is that the term African American (and categories using it) is an umbrella term that was formulated with reference to the polyglot population of Black Africans descended from enslaved ancestors whose ethnicity and culture had been systematically demolished. The Cape Verdeans, in contrast, lived largely in their own communities and maintained continuity of ethnicity and culture. That's why I said that they're "quite distinctive", and shouldn't just be rolled into an umbrella category just to make things simpler.
Cgingold (
talk)
22:47, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
I am sure Obama (no link whatever to slavery) and
Tiger Woods are referred to as
African American; and the article makes no such claim - "African Americans or Black Americans are citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa". (I am not sure whether Cape Verdean Americans are necessarily African Americans in this sense;
Cape Verde suggests they are.)
Occuli (
talk)
01:55, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
I'm not saying that they can't be referred to as "African Americans" in some sense of that term. But just because that makes things simpler linguistically doesn't mean that we therefore must proceed to merge their Wiki categories into those for African Americans. As I said, they have a distinct culture, and are no less deserving of categories than other ethnic groups.
Cgingold (
talk)
02:31, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
The question everyone is forgetting is this: what makes Cape Verdean American sportspeople less arbitrary than nearly every other ethnicity in the US? Why is Cape Verdean American sportspeople less arbitrary than say, previously deleted categories on Nigerian American sportspeople or German American sportspeople? Furthermore, as it was argued back in 2006, do we really want thousands of categories based on arbitrary ethnic divisions? What about
Category:Botswanan Australian sportspeople or
Category:Icelandic Latvian musicians? --
Thomas.macmillan (
talk)
16:53, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
As soon as there are actual articles to fill those categories, they wouldn't be doing any harm. As I said before, for me it's a matter of usability, not notability. The categorization system is an organization and classification system for the existing content; It shouldn't be treated as content itself. As a matter of fact, what would the project gain from deleting these categories, anyway? I surely can tell, on the other hand, that there would be a loss in usefulness if that happened. --
Waldirtalk20:28, 29 December 2008 (UTC)reply
I think overcategorization does actually do harm. It is difficult to watch the possible tens of thousands of possible categories created if such categories are allowed. That is why
guidelines suggest that non-notable intersections like this one and the others I mentioned be deleted.--
Thomas.macmillan (
talk)
05:37, 30 December 2008 (UTC)reply
I want to change my mind to neutral, or at least a very weak delete. I can't understand why "Cape Verdean American" is an ethnicity unto itself, as I thought the ethnicity would be "of Cape Verdean descent". But I'll defer to American users on this as they likely know what is and what is not considered an ethnicity in the exclusive American context.
Good Ol’factory(talk)01:44, 6 January 2009 (UTC)reply
Cape Verdean Americans are not ethnically different than any other Cape Verdean diaspora; yes, they have a unique history in New England (where I am from), but that does not make the category any less of a triple intersection. You are correct in your lack of understanding, Goold Ol'factory.--
Thomas.macmillan (
talk)
04:32, 6 January 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep (per my comments above) I understand the arguments against, but first of all I find the category useful and unharmful, and second, I oppose the deletion of this category unless all other "by ethnic or national origin" categories (especially the ones under
Category:American sportspeople by ethnic or national origin) are deleted as well. Please note, I don't support the deletion of all these, I'm just saying there should be some consistency in the proposal. --
Waldirtalk08:12, 6 January 2009 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Cape Verdean American musicians
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: Delete All of these categories are non-notable intersections. What does being of Cape Verdean descent have to do with your ability to play sports, music or be in politics? Also, a similar
cfd for Nigerian American sportspeople came up over the summer and it was upmerged.
Thomas.macmillan (
talk)
01:49, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Keep as a strong defining characteristic of the individuals involved. The category system does not mean that being from a place, or one's race, ethnicity, religion or sexual preference make someone a better athlete, musician or politician. Categories are meant to group similar articles together and allow readers to navigate to these articles. This category accomplishes that.
Alansohn (
talk)
21:08, 30 December 2008 (UTC)reply
I want to change my mind to neutral, or at least a very weak delete. I can't understand why "Cape Verdean American" is an ethnicity unto itself, as I thought the ethnicity would be "of Cape Verdean descent". But I'll defer to American users on this as they likely know what is and what is not considered an ethnicity in the exclusive American context.
Good Ol’factory(talk)01:43, 6 January 2009 (UTC)reply
Strong keep - There are some distinct musical traditions among Cape Verdean Americans especially in New England.
Scanlan (
talk)
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Cape Verdean American politicians
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: Delete All of these categories are non-notable intersections. What does being of Cape Verdean descent have to do with your ability to play sports, music or be in politics? Also, a similar
cfd for Nigerian American sportspeople came up over the summer and it was upmerged.
Thomas.macmillan (
talk)
01:49, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Clear Keep - The
Cape Verdean American community is quite distinctive, and as such should not be dispensed with in such a cavalier way. I'm sure nobody would suggest that their ethnicity has anything to do with their "ability" to do any of these things -- so that question amounts to a
strawman argumentpar excellence. In fact, these are all notable intersections -- just as they are for other ethnic groups. Yet this singles out one of the 23 sibling categories of
Category:American politicians by ethnic or national origin.
Cgingold (
talk)
11:04, 28 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Keep as a strong defining characteristic of the individuals involved. The category system does not mean that being from a place, or one's race, ethnicity, religion or sexual preference make someone a better athlete, musician or politician. Categories are meant to group similar articles together and allow readers to navigate to these articles. This category accomplishes that.
Alansohn (
talk)
21:08, 30 December 2008 (UTC)reply
I want to change my mind to neutral, or at least very weak delete. I can't understand why "Cape Verdean American" is an ethnicity unto itself, as I thought the ethnicity would be "of Cape Verdean descent". But I'll defer to American users on this as they likely know what is and what is not considered an ethnicity in the exclusive American context.
Good Ol’factory(talk)01:42, 6 January 2009 (UTC)reply
Strong Keep - Numerous categories already exist for Irish American politicians, Mexican American politicians, Italian American politicians, etc. so there is a clear precedence here. The only real reason why this category is up for deletion while the others are not is because Cape Verdeans are a much smaller community, at least by American standards. However, they are still distinctive. Strong, clear keep.
Scanlan (
talk)
23:41, 5 January 2009 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.