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You can use {{Resolved|Your reason here ~~~~}} at the top of the section containing the report. At least leave a comment about a BLP report, if doing so might spare other editors the task of needlessly repeating some of what you have done.
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A request at
WP:RPPI from an IP asks that this article be semi-protected. Another IP opposes the first. There is a storm of editing going on there and I'm hoping someone will work out what is going on and whether admin action is needed.
Johnuniq (
talk)
10:02, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
This is a massive
WP:BLPPRIMARY mine field with too many things cited solely to court documents. One IP had the nerve to revert and wikilawyer an administrator,
Fences and windows.
[1] I have a suspicion these ip addresses are PR-ing and litigating through wikipedia and the article needs an extensive clean-up.
Morbidthoughts (
talk)
18:34, 25 June 2024 (UTC)reply
There is a pattern of IP addresses that have never made edits to WP before making 1 or 2 edits and then disappearing. I suggest that the person doing this knows what they're doing and is doing this intentionally to evade a previous ban. See evidence from here
Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Single-edit_IPs_vandalizing_Ashley_Gjøvik_page and in particular,
this section posted to another user's talk page from a throwaway IP accusing that editor of "casting aspersions" for making claims that this IP-hopper isn't (implausibly) a new person for every new IP they're using. I wasn't aware of the history of this page before the recent twitter threads, news articles etc., but based on what you have linked above, I think it's very plausible that this IP hopper is the same person as SquareInARoundHole. Note: I've only made a couple edits since my dynamic IP rotated last night, but I'm not intentionally changing my IP after every edit like this person or using proxies across many different ISPs. I am the same person that used
Special:Contributions/76.6.213.65 for the past couple weeks.
76.6.210.82 (
talk)
07:01, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
It may be noted for the record that this article and
Cher Scarlett were, some years ago, the subject of a protracted episode involving both of the articles' subjects themselves. jp×
g🗯️23:47, 6 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Question: I am not overly familiar with BLP policies. Is the reason that court documents are not allowed is that they become Original Research because they are easy to MIS-interpret? (I saw lots of those additions, but didn't know about the applicability of court documents as sources for what seemed to be simple statements like "lawsuit dismissed with/out prejudice").
I understand
WP:BLP : "Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person." - but I would think that would pertain to info like allegations of misconduct/criminal charges, not whether a lawsuit is active, dismissed, settled, or adjudicated. ---Avatar317(talk)00:58, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I take a broad view of
WP:BLPPRIMARY's prohibition. The need to complete a story is not a reason to start ignoring this policy. It is an argument that is against
WP:WEIGHT if no secondary reliable sources report on the outcome.
Morbidthoughts (
talk)
01:17, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I think
WP:PRIMARY as well is important regardless of BLP concerns, including its interaction with
WP:INDISCRIMINATE and
WP:NOTEWORTHY. A missing detail that is truly important may be useful to pull from a primary source in certain circumstances (much less likely in a BLP given
WP:BLPPRIMARY), but determining how much to include in an article is difficult enough using secondary sources, not to mention primary sources. –
notwally (
talk)
01:31, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Published case law (which is not court documents in the sense of public records) is used frequently on Wikipedia - quick search of Reuters casetext yields 1,100 results. Many are on BLPs.
WP:RSLAW is worth a read. RICO is pretty much the most serious accusation someone can lodge and the only source of it is an Apple blog. If it's worth including, I can't see how published case law that it was dismissed (especially with prejudice) isn't also warranted. The fact it was adjudicated doesn't seem like a minor detail. Changed my mind on this because of
Johnuniq's note below.
Say ocean again (
talk)
15:00, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Published case opinions are court documents and have to be handled the same way on Wikipedia because they implicate many of the same concerns with their usage, whether that is privacy of living people or the issues interpreting them by anyone who can edit here. Also, dismissal with prejudice is not necessarily an adjudication on the merits, and there are significantly more serious accusations than a RICO lawsuit filed by an employee for retaliation and fraud. Claiming that
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a very persuasive argument, especially on this noticeboard dealing with the strict guidelines for BLPs. –
notwally (
talk)
06:07, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Note this IP address has only ever made this one edit, to this talk page. See above about sockpuppeting on this article as this editor is almost certainly a known quantity; since they are no longer able to edit the article, they are now editing administrative threads trying to influence how it is being edited.
I don't control my IP address and have never contributed in a way that wasn't clear I'm one person. I requested page protections for the very reason that you and unknown number of others were edit warring and the article itself was posted on as a community note from a Twitter thread with tens of thousands of retweets.
The issue about AppleInsider should be up for discussion. Even if reliable, it and another source, Index on Censorship, definitely should not be given as much as weight as sources like Financial Times, The Verge, or New York Times.
Morbidthoughts (
talk)
22:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Using court documents and similar is very undesirable because their meaning can be misunderstood by onlookers, and because they can be contradicted in another document, and because an opponent of the subject can easily cherry-pick undue negativity from a laundry-list of assertions. Using a secondary source is supposed to shift the burden of deciding what reporting is appropriate from an anyone-can-edit contributor to the editorial team of the secondary source.
Johnuniq (
talk)
04:57, 26 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I really don't understand the obsession some editors have with poorly written lead sentences. It is possible to describe someone and summarize their notable aspects without merely a series of nouns. –
notwally (
talk)
19:29, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The MOS doesn't give a lot of guidance on this at all, but it's a matter of good writing versus bad writing. The lede should be written at a 6th grade level, but should not read like it was written by a 6th grader. I've had a lot of schooling, training, and real-life experience in this, so I could charge good money for what I'm giving here for free. Having an opening sentence like that comes off to the reader as childish and stupid, and is that truly what anybody wants? There's no way to sugarcoat it, but that's what it is.
Good writing is idiomatic, meaning people know it when they see it, but can't usually tell you what makes it good. That's because so many of the principles are counterintuitive and must be learned. It needs context, coherence, and flow. The first sentence is important only for creating context. This is called the "topic sentence", and the only purpose is to provide context for the following sentences. But it's not the place to make any kind of point. The only thing it needs to do is tell us in very broad terms what the subject is.
People never remember the first sentence, so it's not the most important one. People remember the last thing they see. By far, the most important sentence in the entire article is the last sentence of the first paragraph, which is called the "thesis sentence". This is where the point is laid out.
For example, see the article on
Adolph Hitler. That is a perfect example of what a well-written article looks like. We don't start off by saying he was a bigot and murderer. We start off by describing what he was, which was the chancellor of Germany and head of the Nazi Party, which provides context for the reader. We save the most important fact for the thesis sentence, which is his role in genocide. We don't call him names, but describe what he actually did. The same is true for this subject (or any other for that matter.) My advice is don't put so much emphasis on cramming everything into the first sentence, because that's actually counter to whatever goal people are trying to achieve. It's important, but not for the reasons most people think. Far more important is the thesis sentence, because that is the main point of the article.
Zaereth (
talk)
20:47, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I believe senior contributor, @jpatokal, has gone rogue. He has violated many of the norms of the
WP:BLP with impunity.
He was caught at it 11 years ago:
Jpatokal The information you have posted is contentious and libelous. BLP editing rules state it must be removed immediately if unsourced or ‘poorly sourced’. There is no record of that article anywhere other than on the Ugandanet platform which is not a genuine newspaper archive. Please refer to the rules on NOR and Verifiability. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prodigalson49 (talk • contribs) 16:22, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
He is at it again:
@Jpatokal, you have violated almost every principle in BLP!
Addressing the banner you placed on this page verbatim:
This article needs to be updated... - with what? by whom? do you have new info?
90% of references used are dead links and story filled with Outdated Facts... - Wrong! Original links exist along with links to an archive of the original reference. How do "facts" become outdated? They could be disproved but not outdated!
Subject reported as a Hoax... - your linked ref on "Hoax" seems contrary to what you are trying to convey in your banner as per its opening paragraph. So much for NPOV.
...with a multitude of Bankruptcy court cases - your linked webpage has no bearing to the sensational allegation of bankruptcy.
...involving many bouncing cheques... - another sensational reference to "many" but referencing just one case whose outcome is not even mentioned.
...among many others - yet another sensational reference to "many" with a singular citation of a tabloid news article.
Cherry picking one of your edits:
...also known as Michael Ezra Kato - a senior contributor should know better than to provide an archived blog post as a reference. This was the balance you brought to the article to remove a NPOV banner you place on the article (could not help but take a negative shot at the man)?
The subject of this page is known and dear to many. He might also have many enemies out there but Wikipedia should not be the place to settle such scores (going by their policies).
This is not Michael! Please undo all your aggressive/ill-intended edits unless you have new FACTS to add to the article. 204.167.92.26 (talk) 23:38, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
Every single edit I made is backed up by references. The one you "picked out" is not a blog post, but the text of an article published in the Sunday Vision in April 2004 and helpfully archived by somebody. Jpatokal (talk) 03:52, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
I am following through with the recommended procedures of complaints but honestly have little hope for justice as he seems to enjoy the support of some of the other contributors/admins (and probably sits on the panel that reviews this escalation). — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
204.167.92.26 (
talk)
23:58, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Uhh... I have no clue what you're asking for here. Are these quotes from talk page discussions or something? If so, what is the point you're trying to make? Is this in relation to some specific article? If so, which article? We don't deal in justice here, so if your complaint is about editor behavior, then you should take it to
WP:ANI, but try to be more direct and provide diffs to support whatever it is you think this user did wrong. If it's about something that violates BLP policy, we'd need to know what you think those violations are and links to the article in question so we can investigate it ourselves. As is, I don't see anything here to really go on, so not sure what you want us to do.
Zaereth (
talk)
00:20, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The
Brigitte Macron page appears to be going through multiple rounds of edits & reverts due to concerted efforts by some to add transgenderism claims without citing reliable sources for the living person. Admin action was taken on June 20th, but today the issue has resurfaced. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2601:647:4001:85D0:14D4:9116:55B9:EA5F (
talk)
23:40, 28 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Thanks for pointing this out. I have semi-protected the article again, this time for three months. Let me know if any further nonsense arises.
Johnuniq (
talk)
05:02, 29 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Julie Johnson was married to David Lee Johnson from 1997-2002 and had one child, Trey in 1998.
Julie’s father was named David Lee Johnson, so when she married my brother David it created a lot of confusion with the invitations. This is also why Julie’s son is called Trey, since both his father and grandfather were named David Lee (though not related).
I couldn't find any source for that marriage or the marriage to Dylan Paul Thomas that was in the article, and so I removed it for now. –
notwally (
talk)
05:50, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The article about Mohamed Ashmalee was (or is) in a horrible state. A large section, restored by multiple experienced editors since 2022 turns out to be a verbatim copy of the cited non-free source, et cetera. Courtesy ping
Suonii180,
LizardJr8,
Kleuske and
Midori No Sora who could perhaps have noticed this when verifying whether the section restored by them is actually backed by the cited source.
~ ToBeFree (
talk)
02:23, 30 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I didn't notice that there was a copyvio involved. In hindsight I should have looked a little deeper into how much text was added for the corruption allegation; but I don't see anything that disqualifies the source itself.
I was not sure of the motives behind repeatedly removing text with no explanation other than "wrong", "untrue" or "truth" when I engaged once. I would agree a deeper look is needed into the subject.
LizardJr8 (
talk)
21:30, 30 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I've reverted
this only edit because I thought the IP address removed a large section of the article without giving a valid reason. I also didn't notice that section of the article was a copyright violation. Looking at the history, several IP addresses and users were indeed removing that section, but some weren't providing an edit summary or were explaining that it was "the truth" or simply: "yes", which sounded suspicious.
I've opened a discussion at the
talk page to discuss content addition proposals. I've also edited the article to remove generic urls that failed
WP:V, unarchived dead links, and lots of stray caps (copyediting). I tagged unreffed claims; this content currently is the majority of the article. I have not removed unreffed claims that touch on notability, but a few unrelated ones got the scalpel. Cheers.
JFHJr (
㊟)
01:02, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I came across
this family tree today, which includes the full names of living (and dead) people, some with articles and others who are apparently non-notable, and it's all entirely unsourced. WP:BLPNAME suggests that we remove the names of living persons who not notable public figures—but that defeats the purpose of a family tree. Maybe that's a good thing?
Category:Family tree templates is filled with family trees, though many of them are for (long dead) historical figures, historical dynasties, animal groups, languages—those should all be fine. But is there a bigger problem with family trees that are unsourced and/or include the names of non-notable living persons?
Woodroar (
talk)
15:22, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The sourcing and whether filiation is contentious are the main concerns. But mere mentions of non-notables are less inherently problematic than they are a threshold determination for requiring sources and solid ones for contentious claims.
JFHJr (
㊟)
21:37, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
In the tree you linked, the forefathers and siblings of Naqi Ali appear irrelevant. So do Hasnain Raza and Faiz Raza; they could all probably be removed unless there's some kind of relevance to an article's content and it's supported by a reliable source.
JFHJr (
㊟)
21:42, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I agree that the lack of sourcing is an issue, and that some content (at least) should be removed. But doesn't
WP:BLPNAME suggest that we remove every non-notable person? Should we replace removed names with any placeholder text?
I also wonder what the point is. A family tree might be relevant in, say, articles about royal families where everyone is notable. But what use are they when only half of the people mentioned are notable—especially if we end up having to remove the names of non-notables?
Woodroar (
talk)
21:10, 3 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Clementine Ford (writer)
I wanted to get some input here from others before I take a large action, since I see from the talk page of
Clementine Ford (writer) that, while there's a lot of separate sections and concerns raised, no one has done anything.
The entirety of the rather lengthy "Social media" section should just be removed, right? Like, pretty much everything in it is a BLP violation using individual news articles to discuss individual tweets or things on Facebook or other nonsense, right? I'm trying to make sure I'm not missing something obvious here.
SilverserenC21:50, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
You are correct. I'm handing you my cleaver while I step away for some time in the dirt. I'll check back in a few hours.
JFHJr (
㊟)
21:53, 1 July 2024 (UTC)reply
In my edit summary when I removed the section, I noted that some of the content could be potentially salvageable. But would need to be rewritten and reorganized. And probably shouldn't have its own section just for that.
SilverserenC00:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Silver seren: Great work, looks better! I agree with the
WP:WEIGHT concerns: a separate social media section is probably not going to be up to snuff. With the same concerns, I've condensed sections for topical relevance and moved a glut of refs from the lede to the body (and removed one primary ref that served no purpose). Cheers.
JFHJr (
㊟)
02:41, 2 July 2024 (UTC)reply
TESCREAL#Alleged TESCREALists
I want some input. Following
WP:BLP, @
Avatar317 removed significant amounts of material from the
TESCREAL article (
See diff
I'd argue material is fairly well sourced, and many of these figures are
WP:PUBLICFIGURE (i.e. Elon Musk, SBF, Sam Altman, and various high level philosophers).
As per
WP:BLP, in cases of conflict, I was told to escalate here on noticeboard for suggestions from community.
Multiple sources since December have used the term and analyzed it. I used Draftspace to improve and asked
User_talk:Arbitrarily0#Draft:TESCREAL to see if it could be undeleted.
We are describing this supposed philosophy as being akin to a secular religion. We would likely avoid branding anyone with a religion that they have not chosen to identify with. The claim that it is not a pejorative is at odds with the statement in the intro that "the acronym is sometimes used to criticize a perceived belief system associated with Big Tech". It is not a term developed by holders of the belief to identify themselves, and it is hard to see that it's something we should be using to label people any more than "woke" or "TERF". --
Nat Gertler (
talk)
02:22, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Currently, nearly all figures in the section have multiple sources.
I can't read the FinancialTimes article, because it is behind a paywall. Can you please provide quotes, because the association to Musk via one quote where he said he liked the Russian guy well known as a Cosmist was used as the ultimate source for Musk's connection in the first deleted article, and that alleged connection was deemed to be WAY too weak of a connection. ---Avatar317(talk)03:25, 2 July 2024 (UTC)reply
2 of the 9 paragraphs deal with Musk in this source. The formatting gets messed up on copy paste into here.
"""
Tech luminaries certainly overlap in their interests. Elon Musk, who wants to colonise Mars, has expressed sympathy for longtermist thinking and owns Neuralink, essentially a transhumanist company. Peter Thiel, the PayPal co-founder, has backed anti-ageing technologies and has bankrolled a rival to Neuralink. Both Musk and Thiel invested in OpenAI, the creator of ChatGPT. Like Thiel, Ray Kurzweil, the messiah of singularitarianism now employed by Google, wants to be cryogenically frozen and revived in a scientifically advanced future. Another influential figure is philosopher Nick Bostrom, a longtermist thinker. He directs Oxford university’s Future of Humanity Institute, whose funders include Musk. (Bostrom recently apologised for a historical racist email.) The institute works closely with the Centre for Effective Altruism, an Oxford-based charity. Some effective altruists have identified careers in AI safety as a smart gambit. There is, after all, no more effective way of doing good than saving our species from a robopocalypse."""
Bluethricecreamman (
talk)
03:28, 2 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Maybe this is an excerpt from a longer post, but this does not say that these people identify with a thing called "TESCREAL", rather it is a list of seemingly unrelated factoids. jp×
g🗯️03:07, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
"People who are very rich or very clever, or both, sometimes believe weird things. Some of these beliefs are captured in the acronym Tescreal."
...
"Repeated talk of a possible techno-apocalypse not only sets up these tech glitterati as guardians of humanity, it also implies an inevitability in the path we are taking."
Bluethricecreamman (
talk)
04:48, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
This article quotes Gebru and Torres as having called these people "Tescreal". At no point does FT claim that they are "Tescreal", or even that this is a commonly-used term (the closest it gets is to say "The label, coined by a former Google ethicist and a philosopher, is beginning to circulate online"). The part you've quoted is vague innuendo.
"Newspaper X said that person Y said claim Z" is not the same thing as "newspaper X said claim Z" -- it's not even close.
For a comparison, see the UFO stuff: there are plenty of reputable newspapers saying that
David Grusch claimed he had proof of UFOs, but there are not reputable newspapers saying that there's proof of UFOs. jp×
g🗯️00:00, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Including a list of specific people on an article about a pejorative political term seems to me like a quite obvious BLP violation -- would we have a list of pundits at
feminazi,
christofascist,
SJW, et cetera, cited only to other pundits, who hate them? jp×
g🗯️02:56, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
We have
Big Tech, a "perjorative term" for big tech companies.
There are some "perjorative" terms that occur on wikipedia that have allegations that public figures are them. They fall into the pattern you suggest "doesn't happen" on here. Many of these terms are far more perjorative than TESCREALists.
I'd also argue that "feminazi", etc. are internet jargon slurs used to demean. TESCREAL is originated by well published scientists and philosophers, i.e. Timnit Gebru, and Emile P Torres. Its roots are clearly scholarly and scholarly criticism of philosophies is generally not a perjorative political term right now.
If you find a reliable source arguing otherwise (I've seen the rando medium post arguing TESCREAL is a conspiracy, its
WP:SPS), then we should consider WP:BLP. It has no current perjorative connotation as it has not entered mainstream discourse, though it is useful enough of an organizing idea that multiple folks are now using it to describe current veins of thought regarding some AI leaders/philosophers.
Bluethricecreamman (
talk)
05:51, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
In general, it is clearly not the case that everything that comes out of the mouth of a credentialed scholar is a neutral, scientific claim based on pure apolitical reason. For example,
Jordan Peterson and
Slavoj Zizek are both very prestigious psychologists and university professors, who both hold all sorts of esteemed doctorates and professorships. However, obviously, neither of them are speaking as neutral scholars in magazine interviews about who's ruining society these days.
I assume you mean
this Medium article written by
James Hughes, who is a sociologist and a research fellow at UMass Boston’s Center for Applied Ethics. I am not a huge fan of the academic micturation contest framing in the first place, but I don't think there is really a credible basis to say that Emile Torres is a "well-published philosopher" and this guy is a "rando". jp×
g🗯️00:12, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Singer Konshens first picture is a different person
I removed the image from the article (Courtesy link:Konshens) because it was of a completely different artist named Tarik Davis that went by the name "Konshens the MC". Feel free to replace it with an appropriate image.
Reconrabbit13:39, 2 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I have removed the paragraph consisting of BLP violations. While the information added is likely true, the burden is on the editor adding the information to provide a citation. The behavior of
SuperinfoTU on their talk page is not encouraging. It suggests that they see no issues in their policy violations thus far and expect to continue violating myriad policies. An admin should consider a
NOTHERE block.
Toadspike[Talk]14:22, 4 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Many of the “facts” in this page are inflammatory and overly biased. It makes accusations with zero evidence to back them up. It’s obvious to me that the person or persons who wrote this are seeking to use ad hominem attacks and straw-man arguments to summarily dismiss Ken Hovind’s views which are held by many credentialed scientists with PHD’s from state universities. It’s a lazy, shallow attempt to attack the historical position of Christians without actually producing any evidence to support their claims. I don’t personally know Mr.Hovind or even agree with many of his views. This is nothing more than a hit-piece by someone with obvious bias. Is this the standard that Wikipedia aspires to?
69.77.210.17 (
talk)
19:27, 2 July 2024 (UTC)reply
A WP-article about a person is supposed to be a summary about independent
WP:RS about that person. If that is what the article is, then that is what Wikipedia aspires to.
Gråbergs Gråa Sång (
talk)
22:57, 2 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I think the child sex allegations would be appropriate to include if there is enduring coverage in multiple sources. Do news reports about the article subject still mention this, or was all the coverage from the year of the court proceedings? As for the fraud and election-related charges, those seem particularly relevant to a politician's biography since they relate directly to the reason he is notable. In general, I think privacy concerns have less weight for politicians than for other public figures and we should be more willing to include accusations in their biographies, although they still need to be noteworthy and reliably sourced. –
notwally (
talk)
21:25, 3 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I'm afraid I don't know much about BLP policies. Someone ought to look at this recent IP removal (
[4] and the
previous edit). The rationale is "Right to be forgotten, EU privacy" which I doubt has any standing over WP; to me the removal seems like an involved party removing cited information. But then again, I don't know the nuances of BLP, so if someone else could take a look, that would be appreciated. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Aza24 (
talk •
contribs)
I don't know that Wikipedia respects the EU right to be forgotten (and none of the individuals involved appear to be EU citizens anyway!) but "subject's non-notable daughter was married until 1999 to someone who was the uncle of someone else who wasn't notable at the time but now is" seems like a pretty tenuous link and I doubt it's worthy of inclusion in the article.
Caeciliusinhorto-public (
talk)
08:21, 3 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Controversial content on BLPs should have multiple high quality sources citing it. I agree the link seems pretty tenuous. –
notwally (
talk)
21:17, 3 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Seems like a rush to include a statement only covered in a single reliable source from what I could find. My general opinion is that controversial statements should not be included in biographies unless there is enduring coverage in multiple reliable sources. Wikipedia is
WP:NOTNEWS, and a lot of notable people say a lot of stupid stuff. I also left a more detailed comment on the talk page. –
notwally (
talk)
21:14, 3 July 2024 (UTC)reply
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I'm concerned about the "Controversies" section of this article per
WP:CSECTION and
WP:BLP. Particularly concerning is the seven paragraph subsection on "Accusations of antisemitism". Note that this is not only a BLP but an active politician (not sure if that is relevant but it seems like it ought to be).
Could someone please look at
Nina Power and especially
Talk:Nina Power#She is a confirmed nazi now, where editors are seeking to include material about a libel case based solely on primary sources. I suspect that the core factual statements may well be correct, although the tone of the edits is quite lurid, but there's no secondary sourcing for anything beyond the initiation of the case.
Jonathan A Jones (
talk)
13:16, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I've removed the stuff which were sourced to court documents and self published sources not from Nina Power. Possibly the best solution is just deletion though. From what I see, there are currently zero secondary sources about Nina Power in that article. Instead, it just seems to be sourced to what she has published in various UK papers etc. I haven't done
WP:BEFORE so perhaps such sources exist, but definitely the article seems to be highly problematic as it stands.
Nil Einne (
talk)
14:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Not clear what the actual problem is, folks. A look at the history shows that previously, secondary sources were removed (e.g. a pair of reviews of art shows mentioning her). And now, court findings cannot be included even when they bear directly on confirmed facts, or when they act as a secondary source confirming the subject's own words and actions?
This is someone that's been a (generally minor, sector-specific less minor) public figure on a (public) political journey rightwards. The only edits I've seen in response to asking for tightening up the wording and sourcing has been over-broad and wholesale deletion of recent updates that form a part of that public political journey.
Chaikney (
talk)
15:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Brief aside: It appears that she is known for her anti-trans advocacy (she has self identified as part of "
TERF" island in one article). that's probably why there is a fair bit of interest on both sides now, and why many folks want to keep her article in the past AfD.
hmm, change my mind, I see some sourcing that is significant. Many of her book reviews also include criticisms of her past history. Should be correct to include the book reviews, and include attributed opinions around her politics in her bio.
Bluethricecreamman (
talk)
16:00, 5 July 2024 (UTC)reply