- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Spartaz Humbug! 07:02, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
- Yvonne Brown ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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Notability not established. Fails WP:POLITICIAN. Very small town mayor and unsuccessful congressional candidate. Only reference is a dead link to her 2006 campaign website. Amazing this article lasted almost 9 years Dkriegls ( talk to me!) 07:40, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Mississippi-related deletion discussions. — Ascii002 Talk Contribs GuestBook 10:50, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. — Ascii002 Talk Contribs GuestBook 10:50, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Delete The article also fails to note that not only has she not been the town's Mayor since 2009, but she died two years ago. Aside from short obituaries, the only coverage of any note I can find is this and this. The fact that she was the first black Republican female mayor in Mississippi might have generated enough coverage in reliable sources, but it doesn't appear to have. Tiller54 ( talk) 18:13, 15 September 2014 (UTC)- Vote Change: Keep I'm changing my vote to keep on the basis of the sources uncovered by Tomwsulcer and Arxiloxos. The coverage is significant enough tht I'm now confident she passes WP:POLITICIAN and WP:GNG. Tiller54 ( talk) 13:39, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
- To be fair, the article was created in 2006 — a time when our notability standards for mayors, and our sourcing requirements, were a lot looser than they are now — and simply hasn't been updated all that much since then. Those standards have tightened up considerably since then, and she doesn't meet the ones that apply in 2014, so this indeed has to be deleted. Bearcat ( talk) 21:49, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for clearing that up Bearcat. Now that you say it, of course that is obviously what happened and I feel a bit slow for not realizing it myself. Cheers. Dkriegls ( talk to me!) 05:51, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep True, she was (died in 2012) mayor of a small town, but her story is interesting, moving from religious outreach to politics, and she is notable for being the first African-American woman mayor of any town in the USA, and she was a notable figure in the Republican convention because of her unique qualifications (ie, African-American, female, mayor who was Republican). She was interviewed on NPR by Tavis Smiley, and she got coverage in a national newspaper -- the Washington Post -- here, and coverage here and depth coverage here, in-depth look into how she came to politics, in-depth treatment here, story that she won an impressive $5 million grant from Washington]. Also she was included in the book 4,000 Ground-Breaking and Pioneering Historical Events. Numerous in-depth reliable independent sources means she passes the WP:GNG.-- Tomwsulcer ( talk) 22:26, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
- Great work at finding those sources. However, they are all either obits, or coverage of her failed congressional candidacy. Failed candidacies typically fall under WP:ONEEVENT. None of them seemed to be direct coverage of her term as Mayor (the supposed notable event here). That was only mentioned as biography copy for her candidacy. It was a first, but other African American Female Republicans have achieved it since (Mia Love, Acquanetta Warren). I think the sourcing for her first as mayor is good enough for List of first female mayors and List of first African-American mayors, but not a full biography. Dkriegls ( talk to me!) 05:55, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
-
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Dusti *Let's talk!* 00:31, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
Comment. Delete. As first black Republican mayor or first black female mayor in the United States, she probably would scrape through. However, the sources appear to say only that she was the first in the state, not the country. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 10:23, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
-
NPR says she was only African-American woman mayor in the country.--
Tomwsulcer (
talk) 11:15, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
- "Only" doesn't necessarily equate to "first"! Being the only one at a particular time is irrelevant to her notability. --
Necrothesp (
talk) 12:21, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
- Yes but only is unique, therefore relevant to reporters, the media, fodder for a Republican party which strives mightily to show "diversity". :) All told, perhaps it is more of a borderline case, although I'm still leaning to the keep side simply because hers is an interesting if brief story. About the firsts in the US: do you trust Wikipedia as a source? If so, Wikipedia says there were three other Afam women mayors before Brown according to
this list.--
Tomwsulcer (
talk) 13:31, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
- User:Necrothesp asked if she was the "first black Republican mayor or first black female mayor in the United States". She is neither. The claim is that she is the first if you combined black, republican, and female mayor.
Doris A. Davis was elected mayor of Compton in 1973.
Dkriegls (
talk to me!) 15:10, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
- And that's a bit of a stretch for notability for a small-town mayor! -- Necrothesp ( talk) 15:12, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
- User:Necrothesp asked if she was the "first black Republican mayor or first black female mayor in the United States". She is neither. The claim is that she is the first if you combined black, republican, and female mayor.
Doris A. Davis was elected mayor of Compton in 1973.
Dkriegls (
talk to me!) 15:10, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
- Yes but only is unique, therefore relevant to reporters, the media, fodder for a Republican party which strives mightily to show "diversity". :) All told, perhaps it is more of a borderline case, although I'm still leaning to the keep side simply because hers is an interesting if brief story. About the firsts in the US: do you trust Wikipedia as a source? If so, Wikipedia says there were three other Afam women mayors before Brown according to
this list.--
Tomwsulcer (
talk) 13:31, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
- "Only" doesn't necessarily equate to "first"! Being the only one at a particular time is irrelevant to her notability. --
Necrothesp (
talk) 12:21, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
-
NPR says she was only African-American woman mayor in the country.--
Tomwsulcer (
talk) 11:15, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep. Passes GNG. To the above add: "'Reconciler' Mayor Gives Tchula, Miss., a Unique Demographic Claim." Knight Ridder/Tribune Business News, February 7, 2004 [1]; a full page article in Jet [2]; at least a couple of paragraphs in a 2004 CQ Weekly article (only a snippet visible at GBooks) [3]. I note that the freely visible portion of her Clarion-Ledger obit [4] leads with a comment that her "impact on local and state politics will not soon be forgotten". I think the sources show sufficient local and national coverage, not limited to any single event. -- Arxiloxos ( talk) 19:37, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
- Vote Change: Weak Keep. Great finds Arxiloxos. The first three articles you found predate the congressional run. And the Jet article was from 2002, before she was a delegate to the Republican National Convention, so that was wholly about her achievement as a mayor and getting the federal funding for the town. The Knight Ridder and CQ Weekly articles were from 2004, likely triggered because of her National Convention attendance. Singled out because of her mayorship. The reliable sources apparently consider her small town mayorship to be a notable event. While I'm still skeptical about her being the first African American female Republican mayor in the US, because no sources claim that, it appears the reliable source think she is newsworthy. Dkriegls ( talk to me!) 22:37, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
- Comment I should state that Tomwsulcer's find of the Tavis Smiley interview was also from 2004, and not from the 2006 congressional run as I suggested earlier. But no source I read yet says she was the first in the country. The text should not make that claim if the editors of these great sources couldn't even verify that claim. Dkriegls ( talk to me!) 22:48, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep per WP:BASIC.-- 114.81.255.37 ( talk) 22:56, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
- Comment Additional sources here and here. Tiller54 ( talk) 13:44, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
- Comment. This source says she was the first African-American woman mayor in USA who was Republican. FYI.-- Tomwsulcer ( talk) 14:05, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
- The Clarksdale Press article seems to be quoting her as the source ("the first"). I'm not sure that is a strong enough source (likley self-source) for Wikipedia to repeat such a claim. Especially given that much more authoritative editors specifically chose to make the claim regional or time limited for later articles about her.
Dkriegls (
talk to me!) 00:45, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- Disagree. Clarksdale Press pegged her correctly. She is the first in the USA. Check for yourself.
List of first African-American mayors. See 2001. What is first about Brown is not only being (1) female (2) African-American (3) mayor (4) Republican -- put these adjectives together, and she's the first. There were other Af-am woman mayors (but Democrats). This "seems to be quoting her" -- where did you pluck that from?--
Tomwsulcer (
talk) 06:01, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you are suggesting by telling me to check the
List of first African-American mayors for myself. See
WP:CIRCULAR. However, even if we were to cite Wikipedia as a source, that list doesn't even describe her as the first AA/F/R mayor. It only names her as the first AA mayor of Tchula, Mississipp, and then adds "who was...F/R." As for my suggestion of it being a quote: the Clarksdale Press article put quote marks around the words "the first" for a reason. I understand that to mean a quote. Given that it wasn't credited to her directly, I made the assumption it was from her since all the quotes surrounding that one were directly credited to Brown. If editors have verified a fact, they don't need to quote the interviewee. For the record, I think it is likely she's the first, but the sources don't support that claim. All we have is a single local paper quoting her, and several national papers with full editorial boards, not repeating that claim.
Dkriegls (
talk to me!) 16:28, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- The Press Register did not say explictly that it was Brown, herself, who said the words "the first". Quotes can mean various things, depending on context; I read it as meaning emphasis, not that Brown said it directly, but that it is important, so I think your assumption that it was an attribution is incorrect. Merely checking Wikipedia's list of Af-am firsts will show that she is indeed the first African-American woman Republican mayor in the USA. It's that simple. Regardless of how you and others come down to this rather mundane fact, I believe Brown is notable, with a great story, numerous references, easily meeting
WP:GNG.--
Tomwsulcer (
talk) 16:44, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- It's not "that simple", it's
WP:OR. There's no reason to believe that Wikipedia list is complete and her entry on that list doesn't make any claim of her being first, other than as mayor of that town. Suggesting that Wikipedia list supports the claim that she was the first in the US is WP:OR. I'm sorry we disagree about the use of quotation marks in interview pieces, but we do. What is fact is that the better quality national news sources we have on the subject don't support the claim that she was the first in the US and specifically did not repeat the claim made in this regional paper. I have already changed my vote to keep, but this specific claim about her is not supported by the sources.
Dkriegls (
talk to me!) 04:33, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
- Noting that a second news source copied the Press Register story
here, further suggesting that they trust the information that she's first in USA. Mississippi Business says she's first in the state and
perhaps in the nation, and ABC News channel 11 WTOK says
the Honorable Yvonne Brown, the country's first African-American female Republican mayor.. And it is a sad sad day when a Wikipedian does not acknowledge the truthfulness and usefulness of
the world's ultimate information resource.--
Tomwsulcer (
talk) 12:38, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
- Your second source is the same author as the first (Donald Adderton). Which means there is only one source making this claim, not two. Citing the ABC News is again another news agency specifically choosing to "NOT" making the national claim. Wikipedia does not cite "possibles" as affirmative statements. So we have several very authoritative national news sources specifically choosing not to make this national claim and on the other side we have a single local author publish in two local papers and your
WP:OR and
WP:CIRCULAR arguments (which I don't appreciate you trying to "call me out" for following Wikipedia policy
to a tee: please reread those policies and see why citing Wikipedia in your argument does not support your claim). At most, Wikipedia should simply cite the sources by stating somethign like: "Most sources recognize her to be the first AA/F/R mayor in the South, though Donald Adderton of the Mississippi Business Journal cites her as being the first in the US", or something to that effect. And even that I would consider a compromise since Wikipedia should default to the claims national prominent sources like NPR over local papers.
Dkriegls (
talk to me!) 06:00, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
- Well I don't see how you can describe my arguments as circular, and original research, when now we have three sources saying she was the first AA/F/R mayor in the USA, but in the interests of clarity, I amended the lede sentence to be more exact, since there are more sources saying she's first in Mississippi. ABC News said
Honorable Yvonne Brown, the country's first African-American female Republican mayor; further, when two newspapers copy the same story, it is not one source, but two, since the second newspaper is trusting the information by printing it, putting its name on the line because if the information is incorrect, it risks its reputation for accuracy. Stories being copied is how the Associated Press works essentially -- one (trusted) reporter's story being picked up by numerous papers around the country, sometimes edited, sometimes not. So I really don't understand why you are hanging on this point of YB not being the first in US when there are so many facts (stubborn things, are they not). But one of the best things about Wikipedia is that we can change your minds in light of new evidence -- we do not have to dig our fingernails in sinking-boat positions -- and consider withdrawing your nomination which reads "Notability not established. Fails
WP:POLITICIAN. Very small town mayor and unsuccessful congressional candidate. Only reference is a dead link to her 2006 campaign website. Amazing this article lasted almost 9 years". In light of new sources, it is possible to change one's mind.--
Tomwsulcer (
talk) 11:11, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
- I think the introduction now reads true to the sources. Great re-write! I changed my vote to Weak Keep a while back (
here), and will change to Keep now. I was just making sure that she wasn't being credited for an achievement the sourcing didn't support. I now think the lead is a spot on representation of what the sourcing supports. Thanks for sticking with it and finding the additional sourcing. If you're interested in self analysis, I'll explain the
WP:OR and
WP:CIRCULAR, but I only do so to clarify the insight. I don't want to appear to be continuing this since I think we reached a great compromise (mostly thanks to your source hunting). With
WP:OR and
WP:CIRCULAR, I was specifically talking about using
List of first African-American mayors as a reference to support the claim that she was the first in the US. We should never see this list cited on another Wikipedia page as a citation because it is not a
WP:Reliable source. It would be a
WP:CIRCULAR argument for Wikipedia to cite itself. Additionally, if we were trying to make the argument that no editor over at
List of first African-American mayors has found any AA/F/R mayor who took office earlier than Yvonne Brown, that would by
WP:Original research because we would be making an
inference, not citing a source. Wikipedia is the most trusted information source, because we cite the most authoritative sources, not because we reach our own authoritative conclusions (or at least we shouldn't). I hope that clears my reason for citing those two policies. Otherwise, it was great collaborating with you, I love an editor who keeps finding additional sourcing instead of only trying to argue the point. Cheers
Dkriegls (
talk to me!) 19:15, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
- Well I feel similarly. I understand about not using Wikipedia as a source, but in this instance I was using it merely to verify what other (real) secondary sources were saying. If we had found another AA/F/R mayor, in office earlier than YB, then we would know that the sources saying YB was the 1st AA/F/R were wrong; but we didn't; so my guess is she probably is the foist. Cheers.-- Tomwsulcer ( talk) 21:50, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
- I think the introduction now reads true to the sources. Great re-write! I changed my vote to Weak Keep a while back (
here), and will change to Keep now. I was just making sure that she wasn't being credited for an achievement the sourcing didn't support. I now think the lead is a spot on representation of what the sourcing supports. Thanks for sticking with it and finding the additional sourcing. If you're interested in self analysis, I'll explain the
WP:OR and
WP:CIRCULAR, but I only do so to clarify the insight. I don't want to appear to be continuing this since I think we reached a great compromise (mostly thanks to your source hunting). With
WP:OR and
WP:CIRCULAR, I was specifically talking about using
List of first African-American mayors as a reference to support the claim that she was the first in the US. We should never see this list cited on another Wikipedia page as a citation because it is not a
WP:Reliable source. It would be a
WP:CIRCULAR argument for Wikipedia to cite itself. Additionally, if we were trying to make the argument that no editor over at
List of first African-American mayors has found any AA/F/R mayor who took office earlier than Yvonne Brown, that would by
WP:Original research because we would be making an
inference, not citing a source. Wikipedia is the most trusted information source, because we cite the most authoritative sources, not because we reach our own authoritative conclusions (or at least we shouldn't). I hope that clears my reason for citing those two policies. Otherwise, it was great collaborating with you, I love an editor who keeps finding additional sourcing instead of only trying to argue the point. Cheers
Dkriegls (
talk to me!) 19:15, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
- Well I don't see how you can describe my arguments as circular, and original research, when now we have three sources saying she was the first AA/F/R mayor in the USA, but in the interests of clarity, I amended the lede sentence to be more exact, since there are more sources saying she's first in Mississippi. ABC News said
Honorable Yvonne Brown, the country's first African-American female Republican mayor; further, when two newspapers copy the same story, it is not one source, but two, since the second newspaper is trusting the information by printing it, putting its name on the line because if the information is incorrect, it risks its reputation for accuracy. Stories being copied is how the Associated Press works essentially -- one (trusted) reporter's story being picked up by numerous papers around the country, sometimes edited, sometimes not. So I really don't understand why you are hanging on this point of YB not being the first in US when there are so many facts (stubborn things, are they not). But one of the best things about Wikipedia is that we can change your minds in light of new evidence -- we do not have to dig our fingernails in sinking-boat positions -- and consider withdrawing your nomination which reads "Notability not established. Fails
WP:POLITICIAN. Very small town mayor and unsuccessful congressional candidate. Only reference is a dead link to her 2006 campaign website. Amazing this article lasted almost 9 years". In light of new sources, it is possible to change one's mind.--
Tomwsulcer (
talk) 11:11, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
- Your second source is the same author as the first (Donald Adderton). Which means there is only one source making this claim, not two. Citing the ABC News is again another news agency specifically choosing to "NOT" making the national claim. Wikipedia does not cite "possibles" as affirmative statements. So we have several very authoritative national news sources specifically choosing not to make this national claim and on the other side we have a single local author publish in two local papers and your
WP:OR and
WP:CIRCULAR arguments (which I don't appreciate you trying to "call me out" for following Wikipedia policy
to a tee: please reread those policies and see why citing Wikipedia in your argument does not support your claim). At most, Wikipedia should simply cite the sources by stating somethign like: "Most sources recognize her to be the first AA/F/R mayor in the South, though Donald Adderton of the Mississippi Business Journal cites her as being the first in the US", or something to that effect. And even that I would consider a compromise since Wikipedia should default to the claims national prominent sources like NPR over local papers.
Dkriegls (
talk to me!) 06:00, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
- Noting that a second news source copied the Press Register story
here, further suggesting that they trust the information that she's first in USA. Mississippi Business says she's first in the state and
perhaps in the nation, and ABC News channel 11 WTOK says
the Honorable Yvonne Brown, the country's first African-American female Republican mayor.. And it is a sad sad day when a Wikipedian does not acknowledge the truthfulness and usefulness of
the world's ultimate information resource.--
Tomwsulcer (
talk) 12:38, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
- It's not "that simple", it's
WP:OR. There's no reason to believe that Wikipedia list is complete and her entry on that list doesn't make any claim of her being first, other than as mayor of that town. Suggesting that Wikipedia list supports the claim that she was the first in the US is WP:OR. I'm sorry we disagree about the use of quotation marks in interview pieces, but we do. What is fact is that the better quality national news sources we have on the subject don't support the claim that she was the first in the US and specifically did not repeat the claim made in this regional paper. I have already changed my vote to keep, but this specific claim about her is not supported by the sources.
Dkriegls (
talk to me!) 04:33, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
- The Press Register did not say explictly that it was Brown, herself, who said the words "the first". Quotes can mean various things, depending on context; I read it as meaning emphasis, not that Brown said it directly, but that it is important, so I think your assumption that it was an attribution is incorrect. Merely checking Wikipedia's list of Af-am firsts will show that she is indeed the first African-American woman Republican mayor in the USA. It's that simple. Regardless of how you and others come down to this rather mundane fact, I believe Brown is notable, with a great story, numerous references, easily meeting
WP:GNG.--
Tomwsulcer (
talk) 16:44, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you are suggesting by telling me to check the
List of first African-American mayors for myself. See
WP:CIRCULAR. However, even if we were to cite Wikipedia as a source, that list doesn't even describe her as the first AA/F/R mayor. It only names her as the first AA mayor of Tchula, Mississipp, and then adds "who was...F/R." As for my suggestion of it being a quote: the Clarksdale Press article put quote marks around the words "the first" for a reason. I understand that to mean a quote. Given that it wasn't credited to her directly, I made the assumption it was from her since all the quotes surrounding that one were directly credited to Brown. If editors have verified a fact, they don't need to quote the interviewee. For the record, I think it is likely she's the first, but the sources don't support that claim. All we have is a single local paper quoting her, and several national papers with full editorial boards, not repeating that claim.
Dkriegls (
talk to me!) 16:28, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- Disagree. Clarksdale Press pegged her correctly. She is the first in the USA. Check for yourself.
List of first African-American mayors. See 2001. What is first about Brown is not only being (1) female (2) African-American (3) mayor (4) Republican -- put these adjectives together, and she's the first. There were other Af-am woman mayors (but Democrats). This "seems to be quoting her" -- where did you pluck that from?--
Tomwsulcer (
talk) 06:01, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- The Clarksdale Press article seems to be quoting her as the source ("the first"). I'm not sure that is a strong enough source (likley self-source) for Wikipedia to repeat such a claim. Especially given that much more authoritative editors specifically chose to make the claim regional or time limited for later articles about her.
Dkriegls (
talk to me!) 00:45, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep per the sources Tomwsulcer and others found. Jackmcbarn ( talk) 21:19, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.