- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. J04n( talk page) 15:19, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
- William Howe Davis ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
was WP:PROD and "denied" by USER:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) without explanation. fails WP:POLITICIAN. Neither being the mayor of Orange, NJ nor the Director of the NJ Alcoholic Beverage Control division is a notable position. Rusf10 ( talk) 16:01, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Happy holidays! Baby miss fortune 16:31, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Happy holidays! Baby miss fortune 16:32, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of New Jersey-related deletion discussions. Happy holidays! Baby miss fortune 16:32, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
- Keep Doing a little bit of research using a little-known tool called "Google" turned up several sources about Davis and his roles administering alcoholic beverages and amusement games in New Jersey. Davis is covered extensively in reliable and verifiable sources that are indisputably about him and that attest to the significance of his roles in government. Fortunately, the nominator's mere claims of WP:NOTNOTABLE can be safely ignored, as the Wikipedia standard is about coverage in sources, not assertions of who and what is not notable. If WP:BEFORE was observed, it's not apparent here based on the breadth and scope of what could be -- and was -- added with trivial effort. Alansohn ( talk) 18:18, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
- Note I had offered Rusf10 a model for following WP:BEFORE, but it seems that there is no interest in complying with policy. Whether it's the multiple sources that wold have been found if the nominator had bothered to click under "Find sources" on the word "books" above to get these results or on "NYT" to get these results or a source like "William H. Davis, Quiet but Tough", a detailed in-depth piece about him and his various governmental roles that would have turned up in an ordinary Google search, it seems that WP:BEFORE has been systematically ignored, yet again, by a nominator who doesn't seem to understand the critical nature of these requirements in maintaining the integrity of the deletion process. Alansohn ( talk) 21:17, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
- Keep sources and details added by Alansohn show the subject clearly satisfies WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, etc. Smmurphy( Talk) 22:43, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
- NOTE- Sourcing is about quality not quantity. The vast majority of sources in the NYT about this man are marriage announcements, his mother's obituary, etc. The only reason they were covered is because of the notability of his family members, but notability is not inherited. His biggest accomplishment at Alcoholic Beverage Control seem to be his opposition to vending machines that dispensed alcoholic beverage (something that would have almost certainly been outlawed anyway).--
Rusf10 (
talk) 23:35, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
- I'm not terribly interested in his accomplishments or lack thereof. He seems to me to be a suitable subject for inclusion in the encyclopedia because an article can be written about him without violating the three core content policies. With regards to the quality of sourcing, Wikipedia:NEWSORG suggests that established newspapers are usually considered reliable. Smmurphy( Talk) 01:40, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
- No, that wasn't directed specifically at you. I see what you're saying. I believe differently though. When I read WP:POLITICIAN #2. Major local political figures who have received significant press coverage. The footnote next to that says "A politician who has received "significant press coverage" has been written about, in depth, independently in multiple news feature articles, by journalists." I take "in depth" to mean more than just an announcement that he/she was elected or appointed to a position or the puff piece we have about the political differences in Davis's family and his golf game. Being that his positions do not automatically qualify him as notable, my question would be did he accomplish anything major or with a lasting impact? Outlawing vending machines for booze (something that almost anyone would have supported) is really not notable to me.-- Rusf10 ( talk) 02:37, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
- Keep Hello from my holiday vacation. Another obvious keep based on the source material. -- RAN ( talk) 02:32, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
- Note to nominator: Perhaps now you might show some small measure of good faith and withdraw the nomination, both on the basis of the sources added and those further available, as well as the clear consensus. It would make it look a bit less like a coordinated effort to merely destroy content you don't like. Alansohn ( talk) 13:15, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
- Comment The first bullet at WP:POLOUTCOMES says that cabinet-level appointed political figures of states are generally regarded as notable. Unscintillating ( talk) 00:17, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- That's irrelevant because the Director of the NJ Alcoholic Beverage Control is NOT a cabinet level position.--
Rusf10 (
talk) 00:57, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- So? POLOUTCOMES is not a guideline and is very general. Only someone in New Jersey would know or care about the difference between Director of the NJ Alcoholic Beverage Control and whatever you consider to be a Cabinet level position. Also, he had another cabinet-level type post, one more prominent than the usual cabinet-level post. From our article, "Confirmed by the New Jersey Senate in February 1960 to become the first head of the state's Amusement Games Commission, Howe was given what Billboard magazine described as a "powerful" role to "lay down any rulings he sees fit" in a market that was at the time one of the nation's largest for coin-operated amusement games as the country's major summertime seashore resort area.[9]."
Unscintillating (
talk) 03:00, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- You're the one who brought this into the discussion. You really think Amusement Games Commission is part of the cabinet too? Seriously do you really think that the guy regulating games on the boardwalk is at the same level as the secretary of state, the treasurer, transportation sectary, labor secretary, etc? It's not "whatever you consider", the New Jersey governor actually has a cabinet just like the president of the United States has. Both positions Davis held are part of
New Jersey Department of Law and Public Safety which is led by the Attorney General (that's a cabinet level position)--
Rusf10 (
talk) 04:13, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- Sorry, but your claims are uncited, and I've already explained at length that your point if you could cite it is irrelevant. Had you done your WP:BEFORE preparation, you've have presented this information in the nomination, and possibly saved some editors some work.
Unscintillating (
talk) 04:48, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- My claims are uncited? I didn't realize I had to cite things in a discussion. How about you do a "BEFORE you open your big mouth search"? We do have an article on
Government of New Jersey, all the cabinet level positions are listed there. Commissioner of Amusement Games is not one of them. I love how you bring POLOUTCOMES into the discussion and then when I directly address it you tell me its irrelevant. All you do is bring irrelevant arguments into discussions to throw them off course. You are the king of irrelevance.--
Rusf10 (
talk) 05:03, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- Name calling is not directly addressing. Unscintillating ( talk) 09:09, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- Did it occur to you that with the legalization of gambling in the 1970s that they might have disbanded the Amusement Games commission?
Unscintillating (
talk) 09:09, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- That's not true. It still exists, it is now the Legalized Games of Chance Control Commission-
[1] (see I cited it). Casinos are regulated by a different agency.--
Rusf10 (
talk) 14:35, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- Then it was off base to complain about "irrelevant arguments" in the same paragraph that you report a failed search for an organization that no longer exists by that name. The point remains that POLOUTCOMES is not a controlling authority and is broadly construed. Unscintillating ( talk) 01:48, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
- That's not true. It still exists, it is now the Legalized Games of Chance Control Commission-
[1] (see I cited it). Casinos are regulated by a different agency.--
Rusf10 (
talk) 14:35, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- Here is a cite that the governor appointed the Amusement Games commissioner:
- Nielsen Business Media, Inc. (1959-12-21).
Billboard. Nielsen Business Media, Inc. pp. 51–.
ISSN
0006-2510. Retrieved 2017-12-30.
Davis was nominated by Governor Robert B. Meyner to handle the games job in addition to his regular chores with the liquor control unit.
{{ cite book}}:|author=has generic name ( help)
- Nielsen Business Media, Inc. (1959-12-21).
Billboard. Nielsen Business Media, Inc. pp. 51–.
ISSN
0006-2510. Retrieved 2017-12-30.
- And here is a cite that the Senate confirmed the commissioner:
- Unscintillating ( talk) 09:09, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- My claims are uncited? I didn't realize I had to cite things in a discussion. How about you do a "BEFORE you open your big mouth search"? We do have an article on
Government of New Jersey, all the cabinet level positions are listed there. Commissioner of Amusement Games is not one of them. I love how you bring POLOUTCOMES into the discussion and then when I directly address it you tell me its irrelevant. All you do is bring irrelevant arguments into discussions to throw them off course. You are the king of irrelevance.--
Rusf10 (
talk) 05:03, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- Sorry, but your claims are uncited, and I've already explained at length that your point if you could cite it is irrelevant. Had you done your WP:BEFORE preparation, you've have presented this information in the nomination, and possibly saved some editors some work.
Unscintillating (
talk) 04:48, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- You're the one who brought this into the discussion. You really think Amusement Games Commission is part of the cabinet too? Seriously do you really think that the guy regulating games on the boardwalk is at the same level as the secretary of state, the treasurer, transportation sectary, labor secretary, etc? It's not "whatever you consider", the New Jersey governor actually has a cabinet just like the president of the United States has. Both positions Davis held are part of
New Jersey Department of Law and Public Safety which is led by the Attorney General (that's a cabinet level position)--
Rusf10 (
talk) 04:13, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- So? POLOUTCOMES is not a guideline and is very general. Only someone in New Jersey would know or care about the difference between Director of the NJ Alcoholic Beverage Control and whatever you consider to be a Cabinet level position. Also, he had another cabinet-level type post, one more prominent than the usual cabinet-level post. From our article, "Confirmed by the New Jersey Senate in February 1960 to become the first head of the state's Amusement Games Commission, Howe was given what Billboard magazine described as a "powerful" role to "lay down any rulings he sees fit" in a market that was at the time one of the nation's largest for coin-operated amusement games as the country's major summertime seashore resort area.[9]."
Unscintillating (
talk) 03:00, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- That's irrelevant because the Director of the NJ Alcoholic Beverage Control is NOT a cabinet level position.--
Rusf10 (
talk) 00:57, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- Comment Thanks to RAN for finding and stopping this prod. Also kudos to @ Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ), Alansohn, Smmurphy, Tinton5, and The Mighty Glen: for article improvements. Unscintillating ( talk) 04:48, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- Keep Well sourced article of topic in public office for 20 years. GNG. First commissioner of New Jersey Amusement Game Commission in 1960. I added a source to the article. Unscintillating ( talk) 04:48, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- Keep - Not only was he the Mayor of Orange (which should be enough for keep/inclusion alone), but he held state-level appointed office as Director of the New Jersey Division of Alcoholic Beverage Control. We stand to lose so much state and local Wikipedia content due to these mass deletions, here with the Oranges and Essex County. Scanlan ( talk) 23:19, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.