The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. ( non-admin closure) DavidLeighEllis ( talk) 00:06, 30 November 2013 (UTC) reply

Waldemar Zboralski (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)

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Article was recently deleted from Polish wikipedia ( delete debate link) after long debate. Most serious allegations against the article were:
* original research (most of article was written by mr Zboralski himself) - same here, since article is (incomplete) translation of pl.wikipedia article.
* no reliable source - almost every source was 1) essay by mr Zboralski himself 2) interview with mr Zboralski or 3) confirming only part of the information placed in the article, or did not confirmed it at all (i.e. some sources did not mention mr Zboralski at all!) - same thing here.
After deleting embellished and false informations article about mr Zboralski was deleted due to notability rule. Article on en.wikipedia is only partial translation of deleted article from pl.wikipedia and same thing goes here (every of statement below was proved in mentioned delete debate at pl.wikipedia):
* Mr Zboralski did not became the first publicly known person who fell victim to secret Operation Hyacinth
* he was not the first person to publish articles on this subject in Polish press (it was proved that there were at least few more before him).
* Zboralski and his partner were not the first Polish gay couple married in Great Britain (it was proved that there was at least one other couple before them).
Same thing as on pl.wikipedia - after deleting false and embellished informations from article, we have biography of person that cleary doesn't complies with the principle of notability rule. ClanOXym ( talk) 05:11, 16 November 2013 (UTC) reply

Comment. Reason for deleting this biography from English Wikipedia, because it was deleted from Polish Wikipedia - is no more relevant: I created there new biography of Mr Zboralski Marcinzalu ( talk) 16:53, 17 November 2013 (UTC) reply

Comment. Unfortunately, Marcinzalu, Polish gay-hunters on Polish Wikipedia already canceled your editions there. SmallMonarch ( talk) 23:37, 17 November 2013 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Poland-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000 ^(talk) 07:48, 16 November 2013 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000 ^(talk) 07:48, 16 November 2013 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sexuality and gender-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000 ^(talk) 07:49, 16 November 2013 (UTC) reply

Keep and Commment: It seems that nominator is a single-purpose account: contribs... It is also worth noting, that in pl.wiki nomination was also created by an anonymous editor, with some disparaging remarks about Mr. Zboralski (it was later crossed out by admin and Polish ARBCOM member, Leszek Jańczuk).
But more on-topic: in Polish wiki the whole deletion process was quite controversial, and there were many good arguments supporting leaving the article in the mainspace. For example, I added info about Zboralski being called "gay Wałęsa" by the author of the book about gay movement in PRL. I think it clearly fulfills notability guidelines. BartłomiejB ( talk) 23:28, 16 November 2013 (UTC) reply

Comment: I added info about Zboralski being called "gay Wałęsa" to the article. BartłomiejB ( talk) 23:54, 16 November 2013 (UTC) reply

First of all - what difference my contribs log and/or contribs of nomination creator on pl.wiki does it make? especially when it turned out that the nomination was deserved, since article was deleted? Second - you're telling about "many good arguments supporting leaving the article" - I counted one, the one you mentioned ("gay Wałęsa"). "Many">"one", you know? And what's more importante - if there were so many good arguments supporting leaving the article, on polish language wikipedia, where every user could read not only the article, but every single one source... Why was the article deleted? Strange, isn't it? And BTW - be precise - words "więc niejako naturalnie został takim gejowskim Wałęsą" should be translated as "so he somehow naturally became the kinda gay Walesa". It makes difference, does it? Third - Krzysztof Tomasik is, pardon me for being brutally honest, average polish jurnalist - one of thousands. He is not well known in mainstream, he is not one of top jurnalists that you can see on TV at least once a week, or jurnalist whos articles are subject of debates in mainstream media. Publishing he writes for are rather niche, except for radio Tok FM, where he hosts one hour weekly program. Is this makes him some kind of "gay oracle"? And, back to topic, does fact that mr Tomasik mentioned mr Zboralski once make mr Zboralski notability enought? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ClanOXym ( talk • contribs) 00:58, 17 November 2013 (UTC) reply

Re: "And what's more importante - if there were so many good arguments supporting leaving the article, on polish language wikipedia, where every user could read not only the article, but every single one source... Why was the article deleted? Strange, isn't it?" - there are some "cultural differences" (to put it mildly) between pl.wiki and en.wiki (and other countries in the West). Feel free to read this diplomatic cable from American embassy in Warsaw if you don't know what I am talking about... BartłomiejB ( talk) 01:23, 17 November 2013 (UTC) reply

oh, I guest insted of write more then one of "many arguments" you decided to bring the discussion to matter of "polish homophobia"? Same thing happend in polish deletation debate (that's why there are so many <s></s> there) - lots of user who were against deletation had no real arguments for leaving biography, so they tried to bring discission to matter of "why this nomination is homophobic"... ClanOXym ( talk) 01:55, 17 November 2013 (UTC) reply

Keep. I have created the article and I'm a friend of Waldemar.

1. Whatever has happened on Polish Wikipedia has no bearing on this discussion - it's actually quite interesting to see that the article was deleted without reaching a consensus.
2. Person who nominated the article has raised three point without substantiating them in any way with relevant sources, I don't quite see why we should take them at face value. If there are reliable sources which confirm those points they should be included in the article according to the NPOV policy. Michał Rosa ( talk) 01:12, 17 November 2013 (UTC) reply

What do you meen "the article was deleted without reaching a consensus"? During debate few users proved that lots and lots of included in the article informations are false, and what's left was not even barelly notability enought... All substantiations are within the article sources. It's not problem of lacking source, it's problem of misrepresenting or even distorting facts when it cames to put informations into wikipedia article. Which was brutally shown on polish wikipedia deletation debate (main reason of deleting article was that when you read what sources are really saying, the article turned out to be basically hoax(1)). Here we have simillar problem, although it's more complicated - most en.wikipedia user don't know polish language and have to trust "source->wikipedia" "translation". ClanOXym ( talk) 01:30, 17 November 2013 (UTC) reply

(1) when other users (not me!) read sources carefully it turned out that Zboralski was not founder, but co-founder of association, that he was not "first" but "one of the firsts", etc, etc. ClanOXym ( talk) 01:33, 17 November 2013 (UTC) reply

One more thing - just like BartłomiejB you are (strangely) not precise - are you sure you created the article? Or just (partly) translated artcle from pl.wikipedia? Article written by... Waldemar Zboralski? Article which most of "sources" were... Waldemar Zboralski homepage/articles by Waldemar Zboralski? And even those sources were often over-inflated? ClanOXym ( talk) 01:44, 17 November 2013 (UTC) reply

Comment. Dear Mr ClanOXym , if in 2010 an British journalist Johann Hari "accepted" Zboralski as "veteran gay activist", why we refuse do it as well? I added material from "The Independent" about Zboralski mentioning. Radio Free Europe recognised him in 1988 as "independent activist in Eastern Europe" in communism ages. I added Radio Fre Europe's references as well. Do you accept it? SmallMonarch ( talk) 10:45, 17 November 2013 (UTC) reply

Comment. By the way: I think, Mr ClanOXym, you created your English Wikipedia account only for this one issue: to delete Waldemar Zboralski biography. Did you? I think so, because your only FIRST activity on English Wikipedia is: reporting Waldemar Zboralski for deleting... SmallMonarch ( talk) 10:54, 17 November 2013 (UTC) reply

Comment. Mr ClanOXym, where ar the proofs for this allegation (URL address please...): 1) Mr Zboralski did not became the first publicly known person who fell victim to secret Operation Hyacinth; 2) he was not the first person to publish articles on this subject in Polish press (it was proved that there were at least few more before him); 3) Zboralski and his partner were not the first Polish gay couple married in Great Britain (it was proved that there was at least one other couple before them). At moment in WWW exists only resoureces, which confirm the opposite of yours declarations! SmallMonarch ( talk) 11:05, 17 November 2013 (UTC) reply

Keep. Mr ClanOXym, this conference of Wikimedia, which took place in Berlin on 9-10 November 2013, should encourage all Wikipedia users to more edition for "diversity" and "equality". I am surprised, that you, editors from Poland, do everything opposite. It makes me very sad, that Polish version of Wikipedia doesn't recognise one of significant Polish LGBT activists. This is especially surprising, that Polish Wikipedia deleted a biography of Mr. Zboralski exactly one day after far right riots in Polish Capital City, Warsaw, during which a Rainbow Sculpture has been set on fire. LGBT symbol in Warsaw burned up on 11.11.2013 and Polish Wikipedia cancelled Mr. Zboralski's biography day after, on 12.11.2013. What a coincidence... Anyway, SmallMonarch is right:

• Mr Zboralski did became the first publicly known, by his full name, person who fell victim to secret Operation Hyacinth
• he was the first person to publish articles on this subject in Polish mainstream press.
• Zboralski and his Civil Partnership was the first Polish gay couple married in Great Britain (it was never proved that there was one other only Polish couple before them in England).

For all this information exists enough resources in Polish WWW, which was provided in Polish biography on Wikipedia, but, yes but it has been deleted, Why, if it is well documented? Marcinzalu ( talk) 16:01, 17 November 2013 (UTC) reply

Comment. I hope, that Polish anty-LGBT-wiper are here unsuccessfull with their try, to transfer their sick anti-gay ideology to our, English Wikipedia. At moment they still try do it, under the guise of caring of encyclopedic purity. Stay away with your Polish purity (racial purity maybe?) from English Wikipedia, OK? We care for our "encyclopedic purity and essentiality" by self, zrozumieli? SmallMonarch ( talk) 23:37, 17 November 2013 (UTC) reply

Delete. Not all activists are notable - only those who pass WP:BIO are, and he is not passing.. Some refs are reliable ( [1]) but WZ is mentioned in in passing. Despite his commendable activism, he didn't seem to have achieved recognition by third parties that would allow his biography to be included in encyclopedia. I'd appreciate it if any arguments to the contrary would engage WP:BIO instead of WP:THEYDONTLIKEIT, which I already am seeing above ("Polish gay-hunters on Polish Wikipedia", sigh). PS. On a sidenote, there is a Polish LBGT encyclopedia, http://www.homopedia.pl/ - with about as much success as any other Wikipedia fork (and it is not even using a free license). There certainly seem to be a small group of Polish Internet LGBT activists, which for some reason are convinced that LGBT topics are censored from Polish Wikipedia. I wonder if we are hearing them here... perhaps when they realize that Polish Wikipedia does not hate gays, it is just following the same rules as other Wikipedias towards all biographies (gays, straight, etc.) it will be an enlightening experience for them. -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:45, 19 November 2013 (UTC) reply

"it is just following the same rules as other Wikipedias towards all biographies" - that's hardly the case. For example, pl.wiki has the page titled Wikipedia:Notability - Catholic hierarchy, which says, among other things, that all Catholic bishops are automatically "notable". And this is the rule on pl.wiki. (For example, I was able to quickly locate three bishops without any interwiki links at the moment, but it is probably only tip of the iceberg (all means all, after all): pl:Józef Bonawentura Berardi, pl:Teofil Bromboszcz (this one would probably meet notability threshold in other wikis, too, however), pl:Roman Andrzejewski (biskup).)
Could you provide the relevant rules in en.wiki that say the same? Or in any other wiki, for that matter? BartłomiejB ( talk) 20:20, 19 November 2013 (UTC) reply

@ User:BartłomiejB: Yes, see links at WP:CLERGYOUTCOMES. -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:25, 26 November 2013 (UTC) reply

Keep. Remarcable, but WP:BIO says, WZ is notable enough to stay here. He is not Barack Obama, so why Piotr Konieczny expects WZ is notable like USA President? WZ is most significant veteran gay activist from Poland in communism ages, and please, get over it, Mr Konieczny and Mr ClanOXym - you can't change it. Even if you wipe him from here - he remains in TV-productions made about him by HBO, POLSAT, in all this books in Polish and German language and in Radio Free Europe, where hi have been mentioned. Accept it, guys.. SmallMonarch ( talk) 13:02, 19 November 2013 (UTC) reply

Comment. He is probably most distinguished and honored polish LGBT activist, during communist in Poland he was the only man brave enought to fight with regime for freedom and dignity of homosexual people. He risked his life before 1990 and dedicated his life after 1900 to bring peace and justice for all LGBT people, not only in Poland, but also in UK and whole world - not only by creating all by himself biggest polish gay associations but also in his political activity. I can't see anything other than homophobia in questioning his notability - it's sad that nowdays people still hates gay people, witch this "debate" proofes :( — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.111.19.150 ( talk) 22:21, 19 November 2013 (UTC) reply

Keep - this debate shows how big problem in Poland homophobia is. Only few days ago, 11.11.2013, during polish "independence day" there were a huge demonstration in Warsaw, polish capital city - thousands of homophobic, hitler loving nazis marched through the streets of warsaw, shouting about supremacy of the white, catholic, heterosexual peole. There were two finals of this sick happening - attacking group of squatters (some of nazis tried even to use bottles of gasoline to burn them alive) and burning huge warsaw sculpture - the raibow of tolerancy ( [2]). And yes, eventhought this march was illegal, there were thousands of people there, thousands of people like Mr Konieczny and Mr ClanOXym, who would kill every homosexual just because they don't meet theire sick, homophobic, fascist criteria. Spirit34fcr ( talk) 07:27, 20 November 2013 (UTC) reply

Comment. We should talk about notability, not about homophoby. If he is "gay Wałęsa", why number of entries was so small in the article about WZ? February 2008 - 185 entries, April 2008 - 210, April 2009 - 275, April 2010 - 245, April 2011 - 336, April 2012 - 330, April 2013 - 368. It means, he is unknown person and used wikipedia as a reclam. During AfD on pl-wiki even some homosexuals voted against notability WZ, because they never heard about him before. 91.238.85.142 ( talk) 15:29, 20 November 2013 (UTC) He even used as an argument in some of his publications "According to the Encyclopedia Wikipedia, I am the first who...". 91.238.85.142 ( talk) 17:01, 20 November 2013 (UTC) reply

• Comment. Polish anonymous user under IP-number 91.238.85.142 continues lies campagne of homophobic editors from Polish version of Wikipedia. There was cleary explained by WZ, that this "According to the Encyclopedia Wikipedia, I am the first who..." citation have been twisted by one of gay-unfrieandly person. This twiested information have been published after this material published in Polish on-line newspeper Gazeta.pl. Then information from Gazeta.pl appeared in Wikipedia, and just one month after than cam this, what number 91.238.85.142 try uses against this biography. You, number 91.238.85.142, knows it very well! And what a example is someone, who says, he is gay and do not know WZ? It must be someone, who do not read LGBT books and do not watch LGBT movies and as last, must be about 14-15 years old - such young people in Poland even do not know, who J.F. Kennedy is... So I recall for your information, what have been deleted from Polish Wikipedia: WZ is mentioned in 5 LGBT books in Poland; 10 years he was text writer for gay magazin INACZEJ; WZ was presented in HBO documentary "Homo.pl" - in televison and open presentations for LGBT audience; few times was presented in POLSAT-TV a documentary about his civil partnership in England; about Zboralski students hear in Warsaw University during queer gender studies; between 1999-2005 he was interviewed more then 20 times in all mainstream magazins and newspapers, in 2009 he and his husband was invited by Gazeta Wyborcza for discussion about civil partnership staright befor Gay Pride Parade in Warsaw. So, if somebody says, NOBODY knows in Poland Zboralski - so he lies. Badly and cruel lies or is cuted up from Polish LGBT culture and society. Such people exist as well, but such people lost ability to take a part on this discussion - are not qualified for it! SmallMonarch ( talk) 02:07, 21 November 2013 (UTC) reply

Comment. Dear Number 91.238.85.142, this graph shows, that Wikipedia definitely and generally loses on people's interest... 86.135.135.65 ( talk) 10:38, 21 November 2013 (UTC) reply

91.238.85.142 - this debate is about homophobia, since notability of WZ is out of the question. I think some kind of petition to pl.wikipedia is necesary since they deleted article about WZ for no other than homophobia reason, temp. bans for every user who was voting for deletation + perm ban for admin who unlawfully deleted the article Spirit34fcr ( talk) 11:26, 21 November 2013 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mark Arsten ( talk) 01:44, 24 November 2013 (UTC) reply

• Comment. Rather than waste time trying to defend this article about a commendable but non-notable person, I'd encourage editors interested in LGBT rights in Poland to expand it and related articles on notable topics. Incidentally, one of today's featured articles on English Wikipedia is Tęcza (Warsaw), which I wrote recently. I can't help but wonder how many useful articles some people could create if they just refocused their attention from trying to write about their friends, or rant about perceived homophobia on Wikipedia, and wrote about notable LBGT topics instead. -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:31, 26 November 2013 (UTC) reply

• Strong Keep First of all, let's cut through all the garbage up above about what is going on in the Polish Wikipedia concerning this subject. It is completely irrelevant as to what happens here with this article. The WP:GNG is admirably clear and direct, establishing notability for : "...a topic [which] has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject..." Waldemar Zboralski clearly has. A profile of him and his husband on the website of the largest Polish newspaper is significant, independent, and a reliable source. An interview in the leading Polish LGBT magazine also qualifies on all three counts. Being called the "The gay Walesa" of Polish LGBT rights in an interview in a Polish leading newsweekly also hits those three markers. Yet another interview in a Polish monthly magazine continues the trend.

Let's put to rest all the nonsense about whether he "deserves" coverage or not. AfD discussions are about notability as established by appropriate guidelines, period. The question "Is such-and-such notable" is a technical one, and this gentleman qualifies under GNG. -- Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 22:58, 26 November 2013 (UTC) reply

• Keep As was mentioned above, here is no place for discussing about pl-wiki. He was the most important gay activist between 1987-1989. By the way, the sources should be improved. Leszek Jańczuk ( talk) 00:56, 27 November 2013 (UTC) reply
• Keep, per Eggishorn. Sportfan5000 ( talk) 01:36, 28 November 2013 (UTC) reply
• Strong Keep - it seems that the arguments used in the above proposal are false: he was indeed the first Polish gay to marry in the UK (or at least the discussion does not prove that it was not the case). It is an important figure in gay-rights movement in Eastern Europe and there is no reason to follow the conclusions of the embarrassing discussion in the Polish wikipedia. ziel & 08:44, 28 November 2013 (UTC)  reply
• Comment is there any way to force pl.wikipedia to bring back this article? Since it was deleted only because of homophobic reasons, maybe Wikimedia Foundation should be informed and asked to take some actions, including banning people resposible? PawelKowinski ( talk) 14:56, 29 November 2013 (UTC) reply

• Unfortunately, AFAIK Foundation policy is to not get involved in any capacity in cases like this. You may forget about "banning people responsible". Actually, they (ie. Polish Wikipedia admins) are banning people like me that talk about it openly -- I am currently blocked on pl.wiki for 3 (three) years, and one of the reasons provided for the block are my attempts to raise the issue: see here (it is official comment from blocking admin) and follow links no. 1 and 5: 1 is a link to Mr. Zboralski's AfD on pl.wiki, and 5 is discussion on BAR. (No.2 is also interesting - it is a link to discussion page of pl:Bradley Manning where I tried to persuade admins to change "Bradley" to "Chelsea" and change pronouns to feminine. I provided a lot of sources, and apparently they didn't like it.).
  Excuse me this off-topic but I feel quite disgusted and lonely at the moment. I politely asked blocking admin for unblock, but to no avail. :-/ BartłomiejB ( talk) 19:01, 29 November 2013 (UTC) reply

If the atmosphere there is so toxic it might be better just to stay away for awhile. Things will change but it sounds like that change will be slow. Meanwhile why not just edit here instead? Sportfan5000 ( talk) 19:13, 29 November 2013 (UTC) reply

Yes, that's a good idea! Thanks. I am not going to circumvent the block or use socks or sth like that. I haven't done this before, and I am not going to do this this time. BartłomiejB ( talk) 19:20, 29 November 2013 (UTC) reply

Commment: I sincerely apologise for making this offtop even longer, but since the issue of BartłomiejB's ban on plWiki has aleady been raised, I'd just like to respond briefly, as in my view his account of things is rather misleading. Not all plWiki admins, especially those more liberal-leaning ones like myself, are happy with the way the deletion discussion about Mr Zboralski was conducted and concluded. Having said that, BartłomiejB's ban is based on a broad consensus among plWiki admins holding very different social views, both conservative and liberal, because we consider most of his recent activities to be an example of pure trolling. I don't want to make it even longer, so that's just a brief reaction and those of you who understand Polish can read BartłomiejB's edits and make your own judgement. Powerek38 ( talk) 20:09, 29 November 2013 (UTC) reply

(I replied on Powerek38's talk page, let's continue this there. BartłomiejB ( talk) 21:07, 29 November 2013 (UTC)) reply

• Strong keep - I agree that Mr Zboralski definetely is notable enough to be covered in Wikipedia, because of his significant role in the development of gay rights movement in the communist and then post-communist part of Europe. The fact that LGBT history is largely overlooked among Polish scholars and authors and therefore there aren't many serious publications covering this part of Polish history is a separate problem which should not diminish the importance of people like Mr Zboralski. Powerek38 ( talk) 20:09, 29 November 2013 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.