The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
I am also nominating the following related pages because of their similarity to this one. The reasons for their deletion and change to a redirect are the exact same as this one.
Comment: @
Oath2order: Perhaps you are still in the process of rounding up links, but I think this page needs to show that multiple articles have been nominated for deletion. For the record, I think
Nina Bo'nina Brown,
Trinity Taylor,
Valentina (drag queen), and
Sasha Velour should all be kept. You've included links above to past discussions resulting in delete/merge votes, but there are many other notable contestants, so one can't simply assume non-notability based on your argument. There are plenty of sources to expand these articles, and this is another trigger nomination. I really wish editors could be given more time to expand articles... ---
Another Believer(
Talk)16:00, 3 June 2017 (UTC)reply
The issue of the matter is not that there's sources to expand the article. The issue is that all that they've done is been contestants on a reality show. As far as I'm aware, Valentina, Trinity, Nina, and Sasha have not done anything post-show that qualifies them for relevancy. Side note: You do have plenty of time to expand the articles (minus Sasha because that's already been closed). The Sasha Nomination for Deletion took 6 days to close.
Oath2order(talk)16:12, 3 June 2017 (UTC)reply
Alright, well, I'm basing my argument on sourcing, not the fact that they are reality show competitors. Again, there are many notable contestants, so let's not hold show participation against them. ---
Another Believer(
Talk)16:20, 3 June 2017 (UTC)reply
Also, for the record, I tried turning
Sasha Velour into a stub and included the AfD nomination template as part of this group nomination, but the article has been redirected despite my appeal on its talk page. There are now drafts at
Draft:Sasha Velour and
Draft:Sasha Velour (drag queen), and it's quite frustrating that editors can't have an active article to work on in the main space. ---
Another Believer(
Talk)16:23, 3 June 2017 (UTC)reply
Yes, Sasha, given that she has already had a discussion about her, should stay as a redirect until proven otherwise. I'm not holding show participation against them. I'm holding the fact that they have not done anything else notable outside of the show against them.
Oath2order(talk)16:41, 3 June 2017 (UTC)reply
That's not actually true for each of these individuals, but I'll leave that for others to judge. In the meantime, I've requested restoration of the Velour article at
Talk:Sasha Velour, before going to deletion review. ---
Another Believer(
Talk)16:49, 3 June 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete. Non-winning competitors on reality shows are not automatically deemed to pass
WP:GNG just because of the purely
WP:ROUTINE coverage that they automatically generate by virtue of being on a reality show — every queen on RPDR, absolutely without exception, always gets a blip of
WP:BLP1E coverage in the first day or two immediately after she loses a lipsync and sashays away, so that isn't coverage that can be used to show her as more notable than the norm in and of itself. Rather, what's required is for the substance and sourcing to show her as notable for more than just the fact of being on RPDR itself: Alaska, for example, did not get an article because RPDR, but because she leveraged her RPDR exposure into recording an album that hit the Billboard charts. (And then she won AS2, yes, but that was just gravy because she'd already cleared
WP:NMUSIC.) The queen who wins the season in a few weeks will get an article on that basis — but merely being on the season is not grounds for a standalone article in and of itself, and anybody who doesn't win still has to build her notability the same way as any queen who wasn't on the show at all: by working her kitty off and getting media coverage for that. It's simply
WP:TOOSOON to know if any of these queens will manage that. And just to be clear, I'm a loyal RPDR viewer who gets together with my gaggle of gays every week at the bar to watch it in a party atmosphere — although I'm going to miss the finale this year because I have to go out of town for family stuff, harrumph harrumph — so this is not about lack of familiarity with any of them. But "was on a reality show" is not a Wikipedia inclusion criterion in and of itself — regardless of whether they're a drag queen on RPDR or an EMS worker appearing on Survivor, a person gets an article either for winning a reality show, or for leveraging their 15 minutes of fame into something more than "appeared on a reality show and lost, the end."
Bearcat (
talk)
17:55, 3 June 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete. Doesn't meet the notability criteria. Appeared on a TV show and lost. Thousands of people do that every year. Yintan22:48, 3 June 2017 (UTC)reply
Again, someone appearing on a TV show and losing is not a reason to delete an article. We need to base our reasoning on secondary coverage. ---
Another Believer(
Talk)16:40, 4 June 2017 (UTC)reply
Yes, and that secondary coverage has to be in the context of more than just the
WP:ROUTINE level of coverage that every RPDR queen will always get while the show is running. Every queen gets a handful of "WHY THE HELL DID YOU LEAVE THE MASK ON, VALENTINA?" interviews in Entertainment Weekly and Bustle the next morning after she sashays away — not one losing queen in the entire history of the show has ever failed to garner a brief spike of
WP:BLP1E coverage in those first few days. What we require is that the secondary coverage sustains itself beyond that initial blip of "was on the show and lost" and into "did something else notable afterward". As I already noted, for example, Alaska didn't qualify for an article right away the moment she sashayed away the first time just because a couple of "Alaska sashays away" articles appeared in the media outlets that consistently grant that type of coverage to every queen who sashays away every week — she qualified for one when she cleared
WP:NMUSIC by releasing an album and getting secondary source coverage for that. (And then she won AS2, granted, but her NMUSIC pass meant the article was already in place before that happened.)
Bearcat (
talk)
19:08, 4 June 2017 (UTC)reply
Procedural comment: I don't mean to be difficult here, but I still don't think this nomination has been submitted properly via
WP:BUNDLE. Are we discussing just Valentina, or multiple individuals? ---
Another Believer(
Talk)16:43, 4 June 2017 (UTC)reply
The additions should have been placed at the top of the page, so that the bundling is clear right up front, rather than at the bottom of the page so that a newcomer has to read the whole discussion to find out. I've moved it up as an addendum to your original nomination statement accordingly.
Bearcat (
talk)
17:53, 5 June 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete for all three – I do not see any independent notability enough to warrant a separate article now. All that is present is easily presentable in the season 9 article of RPDR. —
IB[
Poke ]10:03, 8 June 2017 (UTC)reply
Keep - Valentina might not have done anything at the moment but let's wait until the show has ended before considering to delete this page. Also I basically filled it. Sorry...
Littlerocketeer (
talk)
14:58, 8 June 2017 (UTC)reply
Articles are not kept just because the subject might accomplish something more notable in the future than they have as of today; any editor could claim that about literally anything or anyone that exists at all. We keep or delete an article on the basis of whether a valid notability claim, and the depth of reliable source coverage needed to support it, already exists today.
Bearcat (
talk)
15:20, 8 June 2017 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Relisting due to the bundling issue. Early comments were on the nominated page only, not the later bundle.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
SpinningSpark12:43, 11 June 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete as Nina and Valentina as a completely
run of the mill drag queens and/or reality contestants. As noted, we almost always delete articles about TV reality show contestants except those who win, place, and show. Generally, for a drag queen to be notable, she must be a queen first; she has to have won a major title such as "Miss Gay Maryland", "Homecoming Queen" of
Cherry Grove, New York, "Miss
Fire Island", or "Empress of New York". Having known such "royalty", I can see Nina and Valentina
aren't there yet. Like
Bearcat, I've seen a few drag shows in my day. Furthermore, I am
proud to be personal friends with a few. Trinity is a marginal case; she allegedly won titles out of Parliament House and The Edge, two nationally-known venues. If sourced, she might be notable.
Bearian (
talk)
03:01, 16 June 2017 (UTC)reply
I'm going to be fair and point out that holding a title on the traditional pageant circuit is not the only way a drag queen can attain notability for our purposes. It's certainly a path to notability, but I can think of many queens who attained notability without going that route at all:
Alaska Thunderfuck and
Jackie Beat (and
RuPaul, for that matter) did it with music,
Bianca Del Rio and
Peaches Christ did it with comedy — in fact, Wikipedia probably has more articles about drag queens who attained their notability without going anywhere near the pageant circuit than we do about traditional pageant queens. (In fact, I know we do, given that the only queen in the entire
Miss Gay America who actually has an article is
Alyssa Edwards, and trust me when I say that RPDR has far more to do with why she has an article than Miss Gay America does.) So no, these girls don't necessarily have to win a pageant title per se to become notable — but apart from the queen who wins next Friday, they do have to accomplish something more than just being on a season of a reality show and having Instagram followers.
Bearcat (
talk)
03:24, 16 June 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete all three: Only claim to notability is a single losing reality show appearance (covered in extreme depth), fails WP:GNG and also fails WP:UNDUE. Wikipedia is not a blow-by-blow recounting of reality TV series. -
GretLomborg (
talk)
04:19, 16 June 2017 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.