The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was redirect to
Antonio Ferrante Gonzaga. I know that this closure will please neither those seeking Deletion or those advocating Keep. But I see it as an acceptable resolution that keeps the content of the article available in case any editor wishes to Merge part(s) of it to the target article which is quite short. I couldn't use the target page title proposed in the discussion as that page is a redirect itself, this is the page title of the actual article that exists. LizRead!Talk!22:57, 4 January 2024 (UTC)reply
That may be so, but how did the sock-puppeteer go back in time to 1768 to get Christoph Heinrich von Ammon to say "Princeſſe de Heſſe-Darmſtadt" and "Douarière d'Antoine Ferdianand Duc de Guaſtalle" in xyr book? That's a bloody good trick. (The article does state this information 3 times in various ways, to make it seem more substantial than it actually is; the original source not providing a biography of this person.)
Uncle G (
talk)
22:23, 7 December 2023 (UTC)reply
I'm confident that the vast majority of the world will agree with me that Amélia of Orléans-Braganza is not a princess of Brazil and that her mother is not the Princess Imperial of Brazil, as claimed by royalpedia. Brazil has been a republic for over 130 years.
DrKay (
talk)
17:45, 29 December 2023 (UTC)reply
This quite fails to defend the claim that this is a fantasy made up by Royalpedia, unless the person running Royalpedia has (a) a time machine that can go back to 1768; or (b) an ability to consistently on-demand generate wherever I look a whole avalanche of books on the WWW to introduce all of the blackletter German, long "s"s, and the Vivaldi stuff; or (c) a mind control device to get the musicologist and the book scanners to all insert a fantasy person into otherwise real books. Any one of the three would be an amazing achievement.
Uncle G (
talk)
15:28, 1 January 2024 (UTC)reply
It's obvious to everyone that I was referring to royalpedia's unsuitability as a source. The only fantasy here is the one you've created in your own head about my comments on this article.
DrKay (
talk)
15:41, 1 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep as a historical interest. As she lived in the 18th century, her information hard to show online source and can only be found in old historical documents of Italy. She married a ruler of Guastalla, making her the queen or duchess of a dukedom and establishing her as a powerful woman during the era of absolute monarchy. She may passes
WP:NPOL. She is also known as the "duchess dowager," and her portrait is collected by a museum. Some aspects of her life story can be found in Pompeo Litta's "
Famiglie celebri d'Italia" (Famous Families of Italy), an Italian scholarly chronicle, and page 310 of "
House of Hesse - Biographical Lexicon" by
Hessian Historical Commission Darmstadt [
de. Finally, there have long enough her biographical information at page 119 of
'Die Selbstzeugnisse (1782 und 1793). Plus extra - details of her significant contributions to the Guastalla church can be found at
[1]. In my view, her article should be preserved on Wikipedia. However, I still have no information or idea about
Margherita d'Este, as I cannot find any sources in various languages. Thanks.
1.47.128.24 (
talk) 21:40, 15 December 2023 (UTC) This user is now blocked for sock puppetry, disruptive editing, incivility, and harassment.
DrKay (
talk)
12:12, 23 December 2023 (UTC)reply
There is another refs! Shame on you, uncle! I'm an experienced editor of royalty; you don't need to teach me what it is. We have a history, and I'm also one of your victims. You ever make problem on many royalty articles, especially in Greece and non-English speaking regions, but I agree you have the right to do. You mentioned I added a single footnote from a source. This isn't an ordinary footnote; it has a source and looks fine. If you not happy with above source, sure here is offline References [Friedrich Karl Gullmann, History of the City of Augsburg from its Origin until 1806, Vol. 5, Augsburg 1818, p. 126, 347, 469 f.; Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln, N. F. Vol. I, 2, Frankfurt/Main 1999, Table 249 (The Landgraves of Hessen-Darmstadt on the Brabant side); Peter Rummel, Article Joseph, Landgrave of Hessen in Darmstadt.] Sources for 18th Italian noblewomen are hard to find online; they are only available offline. If you dare, challenge me on Southeast Asian royalty articles (Thailand or Myanmar); I'll surely defeat you since I can access offline sources as well. You can't bully me like you did with other editors. I especially don't want to argue with WP:IDONLTLIKE editors/ problem maker, or administrators who abuse their power. I've saved many royalty articles in the past, and I won't change my vote on this article. Thanks.
1.47.144.97 (
talk)
10:42, 16 December 2023 (UTC) —
1.47.144.97 (
talk) has made
few or no other edits outside this topic. reply
Delete. Every source cited in support of her notability mentions her only in passing. She was the wife of a minor Italian duke and not herself a political figure, so
WP:NPOL does not come into play.
Zacwill (
talk)
13:48, 16 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep: After recent contributions, a lot of information has been added about her personally with additional citations so it isn’t just about genealogy and therefore does not fit
WP:NOTGENEALOGY. Theodora is also a very notable person in history, especially for Guastalla. My other reason : This article should stay on Wikipedia because is that it provides a comprehensive overview of her life. It includes important details about her marriage to Antonio Ferrante Gonzaga and her connection to the House of Hesse-Darmstadt, and her impact on Augsburg such as the masked balls. The article seems to be well-researched and mostly cited, which adds credibility to the information presented. Overall, it's a great resource for anyone interested in learning about Princess Theodora's life and historical significance. Also she should meet
WP:ENTERTAINER and
WP:GNG after her hosting masked balls. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
User:Azarctic (
talk •
contribs)
19:24, 16 December 2023 (UTC)reply
“The person has made unique, prolific or innovative contributions to a field of entertainment.” Of which she did, so she should be able to get away with that criteria.
Azarctic (
talk)
16:47, 1 January 2024 (UTC)reply
She didn't make unique, prolific or innovative contributions, so she doesn't qualify. I don't think you understand what organizing a
masquerade ball entails. It's just a grand-type of costume party.
DrKay (
talk)
17:27, 1 January 2024 (UTC)reply
I understand that. But a masked ball is still a field of entertainment coming under as an attraction. and as you say “costume party” that is entertainment as well. I understand it isn’t unique or innovative, but it was still a prolific contribution as they were highly productive.
Azarctic (
talk)
22:38, 4 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete: Royaltycruft, fails GNG and NBIO. Notability is not inherited and nothing indicates this individual was notable in themselves or did anything of significance. The article is part genealogy (much of it unsourced) and part royaltycruft memorial. Name mentions are not WP:SIGCOV. //
Timothy ::
talk16:09, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
I must argue against this, you stated “much of it is unsourced” but it’s only the last paragraph which is unsourced, and is only a small amount of the Wikipedia page. To add to that, she is a Duchess consort, which makes her very notable. She held very significant events such as masked balls. A lot of it indicates to her being notable.
YorkDr (
talk)
17:14, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: let's have some laundry free analysis Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, StarMississippi23:38, 21 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep: This article should stay on Wikipedia because is that it provides a comprehensive overview of her life. It includes important details about her marriage to Antonio Ferrante Gonzaga and her connection to the House of Hesse-Darmstadt, and her impact on Augsburg such as the masked balls. The article seems to be well-researched and mostly cited, which adds credibility to the information presented. Overall, it's a great resource for anyone interested in learning about Princess Theodora's life and historical significance.
Azarctic (
talk) 20:43, 22 December 2023 (UTC) This editor has already declared above, under a different user name.
DrKay (
talk)
22:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)reply
It's not, if in the first glance it's giving the impression that two different people are voting under two different user names. Since you were not responding to another comment, you should have added your additional reasoning beneath your original one and made it clear that it was you. Keivan.fTalk15:46, 23 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Redirect to
Antonio Ferrante Gonzaga, Duke of Guastalla (her husband) per
WP:ATD. To one side, I have to comment on the apparent disproportionate hostility towards articles on royalty and nobility generally - as per Necrothesp above these were the public figures of their time, and they were notable simply by birth, like it or not: that's how the world worked.
Ingratis (
talk)
11:26, 23 December 2023 (UTC)reply
It is not, however, the way that Wikipedia works. This is an encyclopaedia, not a genealogy database. Notability is not gained by mere birth. Notability is gained by documentation, and for a historical figure the fact that people are multiplying the genealogy in the article, sock-puppetteering in this discussion, and arguing about how people should be notable because they were born, got married, and died, tells us a lot about how little argument there is to be made the right way, by pointing at history books.
Uncle G (
talk)
08:53, 29 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Final redirect. Socks aside, I still don't see a consensus here. But the discussion did garner a late Redirect argument. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LizRead!Talk!23:11, 28 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Most of the arguments about nobility in this discussion are bogus and counter to basic
Project:What Wikipedia is not policy of long standing, where we decided long ago that this was an encyclopaedia, not a dump of every person in every family tree. However, there are some counterarguments that hold water.
The footnote is not a mere passing mention. It occupies half the page and does support the stuff about the brother's house. That's one source. And there are others. There are history books with this person in. One can source this person's brief career in opera (sic!) from
Talbot 2009, pp. 92–94, 101 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFTalbot2009 (
help) for example, although this is not treated in particular depth with respect to the performer, as of course the book is about the music. This person appears to almost make it over the bar.
If I had found a third reasonable source, I'd be convinced. But I have only found a flood of genealogies where this person got born, got married, and died (many in blackletter German, which isn't making things easy), and only Talbot picking up on the opera and only as an aside in talking about Vivaldi and how this person's family performed some operas.
Again, accusing me as being a sock puppet when you don’t have any idea of the whole story. And yes my vote does matter, like everyone else's.
Azarctic (
talk)
14:02, 29 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Redirect to her husband's article ("Personal life" section). The article has been nominated for deletion for coming on for a month, and an extensive search for citations has been made. A genealogy from 1768, a footnote in an obscure German book about a couple of balls in a provincial German city, manuscripts archived in the British Museum (all primary sources) and a passing mention in an Italian book about Franciscan credit and "Israelite lender[s]" really doesn't amount to much. I would also say the paragraph about the "Israelite" loans is very strangely worded. It looks like it might be machine translated directly from the Italian, which would account for its poor idiom and could be in breach of
Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing#Translation.
Celia Homeford (
talk)
12:35, 2 January 2024 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.