- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. At this point in time, according to participants in this discussion, there aren't Reliable sources to support this article. There might be in the future and this decision can be revisited. Liz Read! Talk! 03:52, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
Thái Bình massacre
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Page fails WP:GNG as it lacks significant coverage in multiple reliable sources. Over the years a number of accusations have been made about war crimes allegedly conducted by South Korean forces during the Vietnam War that are very thinly sourced, often based on unverified Vietnamese claims and/or the existence of a post-war memorial in Vietnam claiming that a massacre occurred. It may be that this is part of the purported Bình An/Tây Vinh massacre which supposedly took place over the relevant period in the same area. Whatever the case, a page about a claimed massacre needs to be much better sourced than this. Mztourist ( talk) 03:11, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Mztourist ( talk) 03:14, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Vietnam-related deletion discussions. Mztourist ( talk) 03:15, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of South Korea-related deletion discussions. Mztourist ( talk) 03:16, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- Comment - if it is established that local media are reporting that local people are commemorating an event, then that seems to be enough to show that it is notable. I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of asking random editors at an AfD to attempt to determine whether a warcrime happened. If there really is some doubt the wording of the first line might need to be adjusted, but I really don't see that any of us here have standing or capacity to make that call. JMWt ( talk) 03:55, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- I completely disagree with you. Vietnam does not have a free press (see Censorship in Vietnam) and so anything in Vietnamese media must be treated with skepticism. There have been numerous cases of claimed battles and events in the war which have proven to be complete WP:HOAXes/ WP:PROPAGANDA. All Users who participate in an AfD discussion are expected to make their own assessment of the sources provided and any other available sources to determine notability. Mztourist ( talk) 04:08, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- Think whatever you like. I'm entitled to express my opinion - which is that we have to be extremely careful when asking to delete pages about warcrimes when clearly people may have been directly affected. Simply saying that Vietnamese media is biased isn't good enough in my book.
JMWt (
talk)
04:25, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- Not denying your right to express your opinion, just disputing your rationale. We have to be extremely careful about allowing pages to be created about war crimes unless we know they actually occurred. Mztourist ( talk) 06:07, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- Think whatever you like. I'm entitled to express my opinion - which is that we have to be extremely careful when asking to delete pages about warcrimes when clearly people may have been directly affected. Simply saying that Vietnamese media is biased isn't good enough in my book.
JMWt (
talk)
04:25, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
Delete, sources seem to fail to meet WP:GNG. While that may hurt some feelings above, the reality is that sources are what wikipedia goes on, there are plenty of other places on the internet for people to go and search if an editor is uncomfortable about how the encyclopedia we are building here operates. TY— Moops ⋠ T⋡ 06:37, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- Comment it is true that the sourcing is light. And also that war crime has a very specific definition. However I too urge caution before deleting. If some people say x and other people say not-x, the thing to do is write both sides given due weight, right? The article doesn't currently do that either, I grant you. The question then becomes whether this is sourceable. Probably not by me, since I don't speak or know anything about either Korean or Vietnamese, but I think the article should be listed at some projects. I'd do it but don't know how. Elinruby ( talk) 08:04, 29 December 2022 (UTC) Followup - Link under Location in infobox goes to My Lai massacre. Lede says South Koreans but link in body goes to an American unit. Calling these as red flags but I still urge some due diligence and review by someone who knows the history. Elinruby ( talk) 10:41, 29 December 2022 (UTC) Further followup I ran the Vietnamese source through Google Translate and perhaps it's a browser problem, but the only thing that seems to remotely apply is a comment, which is apparently appended to an astrology discussion (?) The link in Chinese seems to be malformed and doesn't work for me at all. Elinruby ( talk) 10:57, 30 December 2022 (UTC) Additional note: The military unit is probably Capital Mechanized Infantry Division, which is known as Tiger, and was in the right area at the right time, so scratch the the request for listing this as related to the US military. Elinruby ( talk) 12:51, 30 December 2022 (UTC) Also note - Bình Tai massacre supposedly carried out by South Koreans in the same province, but in October. I don't think I know enough to be able to determine if this is the same village or the same massacre, but given the sloppy wikilink error mentioned above, I can't rule it out. Elinruby ( talk) 13:39, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- In relation to your comment about "write both sides given due weight" that is not possible because there is no WP:RS that says that this massacre didn't happen, as with anything its extremely difficult to prove a negative. Users need to take a view whether or not available RS confirm that this event occurred or probably occurred. Mztourist ( talk) 03:22, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- I am not arguing otherwise. You may know that you have done an exhaustive search for sources. I do not. What I know is that I can't find any, but might well be missing them. All I am saying is that we should not be too quick to close delete, although, yeah, at the moment that looks like the way to go. Leaving the AfD open pending more comment will probably solve that. Since there's a mention of a US unit maybe you should list this somewhere appropriate for that Elinruby ( talk) 08:22, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
Delete Far too many red flags and zero RS. A quick search turned up nothing of note. The village name, of course, is the same as a larger town in what used to be North Vietnam, so it dominates most search results. The unit name is also inaccurate, and if the purported massacre happened in the same general area as My Lai (which took place roughly two years after this purported event...which doesn't even have a date listed aside from month and year) I would expect to find mention of it in the Peers report at least. But we have nothing. Intothat darkness 16:52, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.