- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Spartaz Humbug! 06:50, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
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- Takahiro Yoshikawa ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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Non-notable musician. ~SS49~ {talk} 12:23, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. ~SS49~ {talk} 12:23, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. ~SS49~ {talk} 12:23, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
- Keep: Clearly notable, I found significant coverage in several independent reliable sources including 1) A NHK (Japanese National Broadcasting Company) broadcast and 2) notable newspaper articles in Italy and Japan. The article hits enough requierements to remain online following the guidelines. Fthobe ( talk) 17:43, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: Guys, I understand that classical music by Japanese artists is not everyone's cup of tea, but that doesn£t mean that this artist does not have a significant influence. This article hits multiple of these criterias. Fthobe ( talk) 17:43, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
- Delete Corriere della Sera meets reliable sources, but other than that, not enough coverage to meet WP:BIO or WP:MUSIC. OhNoitsJamie Talk 18:11, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: Hey @ Ohnoitsjamie:, he was covered in Japanese national television (NHK), how much better can it get for a classical Japanese musician? In addition Classical Radio Boston reviewed his disk as disk of the week. It would be great if you take a look at it again and reconsider. WP:GNG says in general that a topic which is discussed in-depth by multiple reliable WP:INDEPENDENT sources is worthy of an encyclopedia article
- Weak delete: Article is poorly sourced and there may be WP:GNG issues. Just because NHK did one TV spot on him doesn't mean he's notable enough for an entire article when there is almost no coverage on him -- the Classical Radio Boston news source may suffice but it isn't enough. His Japanese Wikipedia article has almost no sources/information. I looked at his Oricon profile and while he has released some albums, none of them have charted. lullabying ( talk) 23:08, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: Hey @
Ohnoitsjamie: & @
Lullabying:, sorry for busting balls so much but I really have a question that drives me nuts: this is my first new new article so I checked the guidelines for
WP:GNG (multiple independent trustworthy sources is given by Corriere, ARG, NHK, Classical WCRB) and I checked the treshold for musicians (national coverage, records, multiple mentions). I understand that he's not Mick Jagger, but he ticks all boxes requiered. Can you help me to understand better what to do to improve the article. Because if notability rules are applied strictly, this one is in and deserves to stay. How can the combination of biggest broadcaster in a country (multiple times), biggest newspaper in another country (multiple times) not be enough, at that point, what is enough? I sometimes believe the rules are used very arbitrary.
Fthobe (
talk)
07:38, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- @
Fthobe: I recommend reading
WP:MUSICBIO. Having about 3 newspaper articles doesn't seem to show notability, and again, just because NHK did one TV spot on him doesn't really mean anything when there is almost no coverage on him. None of his albums charted and he has not made any significant contributions to music.
lullabying (
talk)
09:32, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: Hey @
Lullabying:, I think there should be a consideration about different standards for different kind of music. In this case we are talking about a Solo Pianist who's playing as a regular at the worlds leading opera house (La Scala is according to National Geographic the leading opera house in the world)
[1], still, as most pianists, he will probably never chart in his life. We have plenty of examples of that, most notably would be the bio article of
Ian Parker (Canadian pianist), that is referenced very poorly but still his picture is on the article page
Pianist and he has a bio article all on it's own. I am not disagreeing with you about requiring a treshold, I am just saying that maybe being a little bit more open towards the qualification foreign sources (he has been in all top 3 newspapers in Italy multiple times and had multiple TV broadcasts in Japan, I added some ref) and maybe consider that not everybody will achieve the degree of commercial success that you would apply to pop musicians, but still be relevant enough in his category to be documented (something expressively desired in
WP:MUSICBIO. Additionally, I am up to 5 rotation in NHK radio last year. It's not easy to get everything straight when it£s written in Kanji, but the more I look the more I find. Knock yourself out:
https://www.nhk.or.jp/classic-blog/100/301185.html . I think the current interpretation of the rules massively disfavours classical live artists.
Fthobe (
talk)
10:50, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- @
Fthobe: You need more sources that talk about his contributions to classical music, such as concerts or any significant programs he has participated in. Prestigious awards will most likely guarantee that his article can be kept. But as I've stated (now for the third time), there are not enough sources that establish notability for this particular artist. Once again, I ask you to review
WP:MUSICBIO and see if you can find sources/contributions that satisfy one or more of what is listed.
lullabying (
talk)
10:59, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- @
Lullabying:
WP:MUSICBIO states that an artist may be notable if they meet at least one of the following criteria (I am listing only the ones met) 4. "Has received non-trivial coverage in independent reliable sources of an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one sovereign country" Should I just reference all articles for any concerts that seem good sources? Criterium 1) "has been subject of multiple, non trivial published works of reliable sources", I think treshold is met here: Corriere della Repubblica (largest newspaper in Italy), Repubblica (3rd largest newspaper), American Record Guide, NHK Television, so I'd say we have that. Because there are plenty in Italian "11. Has been placed in rotation nationally by a major radio" Ok, we have that as well (again, as written above and added also as reference multiple times in 2019. "12. Has been a featured subject of a substantial broadcast segment". Feature length concert in 2019 on NKH. I don£t know what more you want.
- @
Fthobe: What source supports the statement that his music was "in rotation"? If the concert tour was his own solo tour and not as a touring artist, then that would count. I see that you've updated the article with more sources but it doesn't seem like there is a lot of media coverage about him in general.
lullabying (
talk)
19:37, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- @ Lullabying: Hey, soooo, I am struggling to document it because it seems like that NHK does not conserve past radio programs and I find myself with only the google cache. I attached you a screenshot below. While there's rotation (by the way also a record of Deutsche Grammophon, I really struggle to find a reliable source for it. Either my Japanese is not sufficient (probable) or google caches it for ages (not probable). By the way, the work in rotation seems to be same one as the one on the record with Meloni (see article) Fthobe ( talk) 19:43, 29 May 2020 (UTC) UPDATE I can confirm that 1) he was played multiple times last year (by the matching dates of the google result) 2) NHK stores the radio program only for 37 days (past 30 days and one week ahead). If you make a specific google search you can find more than enough references of the NHK program on other pages. Will you give yourself a Jolt and let me have this one? Just for the motivation curve as a new editor, I promise not to ping anymore :)
- @
Fthobe: What source supports the statement that his music was "in rotation"? If the concert tour was his own solo tour and not as a touring artist, then that would count. I see that you've updated the article with more sources but it doesn't seem like there is a lot of media coverage about him in general.
lullabying (
talk)
19:37, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- @
Lullabying:
WP:MUSICBIO states that an artist may be notable if they meet at least one of the following criteria (I am listing only the ones met) 4. "Has received non-trivial coverage in independent reliable sources of an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one sovereign country" Should I just reference all articles for any concerts that seem good sources? Criterium 1) "has been subject of multiple, non trivial published works of reliable sources", I think treshold is met here: Corriere della Repubblica (largest newspaper in Italy), Repubblica (3rd largest newspaper), American Record Guide, NHK Television, so I'd say we have that. Because there are plenty in Italian "11. Has been placed in rotation nationally by a major radio" Ok, we have that as well (again, as written above and added also as reference multiple times in 2019. "12. Has been a featured subject of a substantial broadcast segment". Feature length concert in 2019 on NKH. I don£t know what more you want.
- @
Fthobe: You need more sources that talk about his contributions to classical music, such as concerts or any significant programs he has participated in. Prestigious awards will most likely guarantee that his article can be kept. But as I've stated (now for the third time), there are not enough sources that establish notability for this particular artist. Once again, I ask you to review
WP:MUSICBIO and see if you can find sources/contributions that satisfy one or more of what is listed.
lullabying (
talk)
10:59, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: Hey @
Lullabying:, I think there should be a consideration about different standards for different kind of music. In this case we are talking about a Solo Pianist who's playing as a regular at the worlds leading opera house (La Scala is according to National Geographic the leading opera house in the world)
[1], still, as most pianists, he will probably never chart in his life. We have plenty of examples of that, most notably would be the bio article of
Ian Parker (Canadian pianist), that is referenced very poorly but still his picture is on the article page
Pianist and he has a bio article all on it's own. I am not disagreeing with you about requiring a treshold, I am just saying that maybe being a little bit more open towards the qualification foreign sources (he has been in all top 3 newspapers in Italy multiple times and had multiple TV broadcasts in Japan, I added some ref) and maybe consider that not everybody will achieve the degree of commercial success that you would apply to pop musicians, but still be relevant enough in his category to be documented (something expressively desired in
WP:MUSICBIO. Additionally, I am up to 5 rotation in NHK radio last year. It's not easy to get everything straight when it£s written in Kanji, but the more I look the more I find. Knock yourself out:
https://www.nhk.or.jp/classic-blog/100/301185.html . I think the current interpretation of the rules massively disfavours classical live artists.
Fthobe (
talk)
10:50, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- @
Fthobe: I recommend reading
WP:MUSICBIO. Having about 3 newspaper articles doesn't seem to show notability, and again, just because NHK did one TV spot on him doesn't really mean anything when there is almost no coverage on him. None of his albums charted and he has not made any significant contributions to music.
lullabying (
talk)
09:32, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
File:Takahiro yoshikawa program on NHK.png
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 09:52, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Italy-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 09:52, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
References
-
^ National Geographic
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/travel/top-10/opera-houses/.
{{ cite web}}: Missing or empty|title=( help)
- Weak keep. The fact that most of his recordings appear on a label "dedicated" to his output is a significant minus, but I confirmed the Deutsche Grammophon release. That's pretty much the apex in classical music releases. I find significant coverage at 51news.it (in the article, added since nomination) and Corriere della Sera. The repubblica.it by Mosca and www.giornaledellamusica.it (also added since nomination) do nothing to help establish notability, they are passing mentions. The Lavoro article at repubblica.it and the nishinomiya-style.jp (largely an interview, but there is independent information there as well) add more coverage, certainly more than passing mentions but not very deep. All in all I think WP:GNG is barely met. One more release on DG and WP:NMUSIC would certainly be met. 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 17:21, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: Added a review in the italian speaking swiss public radio and and a review of his performance as pianist in a ballet performance at la scala. Fthobe ( talk) 22:04, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
- Keep as there are now enough references added to the article that show coverage in multiple reliable sources such as Italian newspapers, 51news, NHK, Swiss Public Radio and others so that WP:BASIC is passed and deletion is unnecessary in my view, Atlantic306 ( talk) 01:27, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.