The result was: after discounting WP:SPAs and arguments which do not meet policy, there is still consensus to keep, with only one delete argument coming from someone who appears to have reviewed the improvements made (and that self-described as weak). -- Sam Blanning (talk) 11:24, 23 October 2006 (UTC) reply
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Abstain. AfDing in place of {{
db}} placed by someone else. There's contibutions by two existing users, and possible notability.
Interiot 06:08, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
reply
*Delete, as it does not assert notability beyond simply being a publisher. It also looks like we've got a bad case of
The Socks on our hands. --
Consumed Crustacean (
talk) 23:36, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
reply
This puppety thing as i understand, are people called from a forum for instance to defend an article such as this. The only people who have commented so far are me, and the pair who wrote the article to begin with, and the wiki wise Sunkitten.
We are not one person with multiple accounts, and we only comment because we care. We are also totaly independent of Sweatdrop appart from Sunkitten.
Wikipedia contains a lot of information, most of it totaly usless depending on your point of view.
I say keep the article, maybe you could refine areas you don't totaly agree with. Totaly condemning the article is wrong, especialy considering it's contents are all true. Look at the website, read the forums. You'll see that everything is right.
Wikipedia should be based on the truth, not on notariety or fame.
Most sub-atomic particles are niether well known, or perticularly exciting but they do exist, and are listed on Wikipedia. Why not Sweatdrop?
There are articles about total losers, facists, dictators, food, small chunks of ice in space, things which are theorised about in the future which nobody really knows about, assumpions about the end of the universe, even articles about what the word dickhead means. So why not Sweatdrop?
I'm not saying that these things are unworthy of an article, i'm saying that nothing should be. If it exists, is proven to exist, and that information about it is true, then it should be included.
Note: The above is just my opinion. If you delete the article then thats life. Although deleting this article because a few people decide it's unimportant or has some ulterior motive is kind of laughing in the face of truth. Sweatdrop does exist, it publishes books, and stands out from the rest of the UK manga scene. It's a fact, and that makes it important to include it. The assumption of vanity and advertising is a complete falsehood, based on some cynical observations by a couple of people who would do well to enrich their knowlege of this small but very noteworthy publisher of manga in the UK.
Go on, google up Sweatdrop, they have many mentions on other websites as well.
Well; here are just a few links:
[15] Sweatdrop Website [16] Sweatdrop profiles [17] Mentions of Sweatdrop on animeuknews.net [18] Mentions of Sweatdrop on eurofusion.net [19] Mentions of Sweatdrop on noated.net [20] Mentions of Sweatdrop on answers.com [21] Mentions of Sweatdrop on the manganese forums [22] Sweatdrop merchandise on sale online [23] Mentions of Sweatdrop on quarto.com [24] Sweatdrop merchandise on sale online [25] Reviews of Sweatdrop comics [26] Article about Emma Vieceli
There are many more than this by the way if you look, this is just what i have scraped off the top.
It may also be worth pointing out that if many of the other british small press people are worthy of recognition then Sweatdrop certainly are.
UKMXL 01:59, 14 October 2006 (UTC) WRH
--
User:UKMXL
reply
keep i'd like to thank the member who offered their help with cleaning up the sweatdrop article earlier (crustacean man?) - i will be happy to update the article with some more information, but i am quite busy and find it difficult to get to grips with the format (altho obviously i'll try my best to make it decent).
i am not a sweatdrop member but have known of the group for just over a year and own several of their comics, books and the magazines they have been featured in. i also have a website with a couple of amateur reviews of their works (e.g. http://www.mangacite.com/Reviews/review_SD_stardust.htm )
the group is the major driving force in UK manga and therefore i would consider the entry on them worth keeping
To begin, it is stated in the attention box above.
‘Deletion decisions are made on the merits of the arguments, not by counting heads (or socks)'
And so I put the fullness of my argument to you Consumed Crustacean. First, in relation to Neo magazine.
Neo magazine is the only UK based magazine dealing with manga and anime, and the only one to be found in non specialist shops there period. The only main competition it would have is in specialist comic stores from the American or Japanese version of NEWTYPE magazine. But, they have sole magazine coverage of the UK anime/manga scene. It’s a valid reference. But frankly, I don’t think it’s as famous as Sweatdrop is.
As a section of culture which only continues to expand in popularity, individuals who have no interest in that sub-culture may consider the likes of Neo and SD to be of no importance. However, that does not detract from the status of said groups. Those two groups along with the Tokyo pop Rising stars of manga competition constitute the core of the UK and Irish manga scene. Sweatdrop, through its tutorials and constant presence exceeds the other two in importance, is literally educating and supporting the next generation of UK and Irish manga artists, and frankly whether it is listed in wikipedia or not, will go down in history as the source of the organised manga creation scene in the UK. They simply can’t be robbed of that fact. Anyone with even remote familiarity with the manga subculture in the UK or Ireland has been exposed to sweatdrop. And the list of companies that they collaborate with includes industry leaders like letraset, Wacom etc.
Who are wacom??? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wacom they make the leading brand of graphics tablet used by artists the world over, but many people have no idea who they are, because of course they are only famous within the artistic community. My point is, just because a lot of people don’t know who wacom are, does not mean they aren’t of core importance to certain groups. Without them, the digital art community would probably crumble overnight.
And here, on wacoms site, wacom, who sell to the whole world of digital artists is Sonia Leong's work, SELLING THEIR PRODUCTS. http://www.wacom-europe.com/manga/manga.asp?lang=en&pdx=10 and on that page are also the words Sweatdrop studios.
Also, the references named above which 'are just talking about the artists as individuals' were to cite that Sweatdrop is mentioned before every tutorial said artists give in a leading concept art magazine which is read world wide a.k.a. the artists market themselves as Sweatdrop artists. When you consider the magazine in question has articles in it by the likes of ADI GRANOV and others who did concept art for everything from batman to star wars, names which might mean nothing to you, but once again, within the art community holds high esteem you have to realise Sweatdrop relative importance. It was made totally clear in the references that they accompanied tutorials by the artists in said magazines. It would be unfair to expect the magazine to allow a huge rant about Sweatdrop pre every tutorial by their members, and expecting such as proof of their position is unrealistic because that would never happen for any company.
For example. When you buy a pair of Nike shoes, you don’t get a 10 page rant about the company in the box. And the store selling the shoes isn’t handing out such rants either. Similarly, where Sweatdrop provides a service, there is no rant about them either. The very fact that they are providing the service, for magazines like neo, Imagine Fx, and companies like Wacom is the proof of their credibility.
In the October 2006 imagine fx magazine ISSN 9771 7489 3000 3 10> Sweatdrop is mentioned in the same breath as the biggest names in manga worldwide "other big publishers include Manga Entertainment, which is somewhat more focused on anime and DVD releases, Dark horse comics and Sweatdrop studios." -page 24 The fact that Sweatdrop in not an official company, but the blood sweat and tears of people with 9-5 jobs makes this ever more remarkable.
Imagine FX august 2006 page 27
Results of a competition run by Sweatdrop, and sponsored by IMAGINE FX, LETRASET, WACOM ,E FRONTIER AND TOKYOPOP are announced.
this proves a professional working relationship between SD and these very very respectable companies.
If you go to Tokyopop right now http://www.tokyopop.com, the leading manga publisher outside Japan, there is Sweatdrop artist Joanna Zhou featured, and advertised as 'of the Sweatdrop crew'.
Of note is that the article which was being judged here has changed to a degree that it is unrecognisable from the one set for deletion, for this alone, the article should be re-examined and re-voted upon after a short period to complete updating of the wiki.
Also, if you can find me another manga circle in the UK, or even outside Japan that can list credentials, and companies, and magazines like those Sweatdrop are associated with, ill be very very impressed. Credit where credit is due gentlemen. And in this case, that credit is your simple recognition of their right to be known. Various links have been provided, magazines cited in their defence, examples of their name associated with big companies within the trade.
I think you will agree, there is nothing unfair about that. At the very least deletion should be withheld for a month, to give time for the wiki, and a full list of magazine citations to be included. The problem is of course, any such citation can be negatively spun to being a form self praise, but, without it you doubt the importance or accomplishments of the group... How you resolve these two conflicting directives I do not know. Can you not accept all these references provided to you, and leave them out of the wiki, so it does not look like a list of ' look what I can do' references? It would seem that whichever direction they move in to appease you folks, they’re damned. Leave as in - not enough proof. Provide proof - tooting ones own horns.
Thus and for many similar reasons, the counter argument is flawed, and has failed to provide any proof to damage the validity of the citations provided.
Crustacean Man and the counter argument in general are being unreasonable in its view, as it was willing to be dismissive of the proof given. SD was asked for citations, and I provided numerous. Many of which were looked down for no solid reason. If Sweatdrop can be asked to provide proof , and provide it, then sir I say when you discredit that proof you must provide proof of your own, Questioning whether one magazine was valid as a source with the words 'I’m not sure' is unacceptable in such a situation, as you disregard the burden of proof you lay on others, and saying the other citations were just about the artists themselves when in fact it is stated plainly that they were bios quotes that accompany all of their tutorials in said magazine, and that I was quoting the bios to show hat the artists market themselves via the Sweatdrop name shows a clear willingness to pick and choose elements of the facts to reflect a distorted truth which favours your argument. This is unacceptable.
In addition to this, the links provided above, in respect to tokyopop and wacom, are proof undeniable for the case of keeping the SD wiki, where your current counter argument sir is based on mis representation of the facts I provided, which were cited in accordance with the submission rules of this institution. If you are unwilling to investigate my citations properly by buying said magazines , or contacting said companies to disprove said proof, then you have no basis to cast their validity into question, an by doing so you fundamentally weaken your argument to the point where it can no longer be upheld as rational. That is why I respectfully ask you to withdraw your argument at this point.
My argument is one filled with citation from site after site, magazine after magazine, company page after company page.
All the counter argument has done is attempt to tear down that proof with speculation. To any reasonable onlooker, the burden of proof overwhelms any current attempt to discredit it. Until the counter argument is willing to stand up, with proof to discredit these citations -you have no valid argument.
In closing I would say to the administration.
Sweatdrop has proved their existence, and that that existence is exceptional, through various citations from established sources. To include such citations in the wiki would be viewed by many as clear self indulgence and self promotion on their part, providing them with an angle to once again attack the SD wiki. Thus I ask that the issue of burden of proof of Sweatdrop’s importance to the UK manga scene and the validity of its connections to various leading creative companies be dropped as an issue, unless Wikipedia is willing to allow a list of shining citations which would only serve as self promotion, thus breaking the established rules against such behaviours. The burden of proof asked of sweatdrop by the counter argument was severe, and the proof provided was questioned in a very unreasonable fashion in that it was based on no valid source. A house of cards counterargument based on simple nay saying.
The only reasonabe decision, within a system which survives through the value of fact, of citation, is to disregard the validity of the counter argument due to a lack of anything but nebulous accusations and award the right to exist to the sweatdrop wiki which has clearly defended itself to a far more professional degree those who would act for its deletion.
James Gammell- October 15- 2006-17.08