The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Merge to
Social justice. There are strong arguments on all sides of this debate. On the one hand, there are reliable sources (although many of the sources brought up during this debate do not rise above blogposts, some of them are more substantial). On the other hand, this does indeed look like a dicdef. Given the sourcing, it appears that the people arguing for a merge into
Social justice have the strongest case.
Randykitty (
talk)
15:16, 28 November 2014 (UTC)reply
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Strong keep term is in very frequent use, and has received sufficient coverage in RSs. The topic will be controversial and possibly should be locked until Gamergate dies down a little but should definitely stay.
Juno (
talk)
22:41, 18 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Please note that the article now has 9 more sources than it did when it was nominated for deletion and was viewed 3,000 times in the last week.
Juno (
talk)
07:14, 25 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Adjusting magnitude of my support per the valid arguments listed below. I still stand at keep based solely on GNG but concede it is decidedly less black-and-white. Deadbeef19:51, 24 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Strong delete The reliable sources that are even on the page barely mention the term, and only as a
fringe pejorative. What is Wikipedia, knowyourmeme.com now?
Dave Dial (
talk)
22:56, 18 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Tentative keep. This could get messy, we should watch out for off-site canvassing and there'll be plenty of
WP:SPA involvement too I shouldn't wonder. That aside, a brief search
givesthesesources, though I've gotta say, they took some finding; most references to it are in blogs and other unreliable sources.
Dylanfromthenorth (
talk)
23:00, 18 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Keep - Appears to meet GNG and likely
WP:NEO. Whether or not the sources are currently cited doesn't matter for AfD purposes, and there appear to be a whole lot of them. Mostly related to GamerGate of course (193 hits for the term in quotes at google news), but also related to men's rights and more generally. --— Rhododendritestalk \\
23:11, 18 November 2014 (UTC)reply
I don't follow this one. It's clearly not a dicdef, and strongest possible delete seems awfully charged for a dicdef even if it were. Also, although many articles about neologisms are deleted, we do also keep a lot. It just matters if there's sufficient coverage about the term (rather than just use of the term). --— Rhododendritestalk \\
04:37, 19 November 2014 (UTC)reply
It clearly is, since it has no notability as determined by reliable sources, and is a product of recentism and
WP:SOAP. Once I see it in the OED, or some similar book of words and phrases, then maybe it warrants an article. It certainly does not now. It is a
WP:FRINGE term. I'm not defending any of the OTHERSTUFF that ought be deleted too.
RGloucester —
☎13:28, 19 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Wikipedia documents fringe topics if they have been the subject of significant coverage in reliable third party sources. While flung in great quantity, the reliable sources about the subject are certainly not "significant", mostly simply a dic def. --
TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom22:29, 25 November 2014 (UTC)reply
"Significant and reliable" as
a whole academic paper about the concept, you mean? The "dic def" argument doesn't support itself when you read the sources and see that they provide a lot of context for how an by whom the term is used in addition to what it means.
Diego (
talk)
09:45, 26 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete - This is a prime example of
WP:RECENT doing a poor job to allege notability.See new opinion in bold below. To quote, "Recentism is writing or editing without a long-term, historical view [...]." Search results yield urban dictionary and primarily blogs. Citations are far from ideal to say the least (opinion pieces and blogs
[2][3] and heavy partisan bias
[4][5]) and largely just mention the term and are not articles dedicated to it
[6][7]. Note: I just cited every source from the article as highly suspect and arguably not worth inclusion; That this article relies on those as primary sources speaks volumes. When evaluated with source intent, recentism, and Wikipedia's wider objectives of likely historical context, the result is clear that
WP:NEO or
WP:WORDISSUBJECT do not apply.♪Tstorm(talk)05:30, 19 November 2014 (UTC)reply
It should be noted that
WP:RECENT is an essay which may be in the minority view of users and should be garnered no weight for a policy based deletion rationale.
WP:NEO does not apply because it's received ample coverage and
WP:WORDISSUBJECT because there is encyclopedic information to be harvested from sources which just have not been reincarnated as a result.
Tutelary (
talk)
05:39, 19 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Someone with your experience level should know that essays with such large precedent behind them are perfectly valid AfD talking points. ♪Tstorm(talk)06:00, 19 November 2014 (UTC)reply
They should take second place when confronted with actual policy like the
WP:GNG, though, as policy has gained community-wide consensus, and essays have not.
Diego (
talk)
13:31, 25 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Also per
RGloucester on
WP:DICTIONARY. We aren't here to host buzzwords or memes. Moreover, just because a term is used in the media doesn't automatically grant notability. I'd also support
Isaidnoway's idea to merge and let them handle the matter of inclusion over there if there is no consensus here. The regulars over there would handle it better than a largely-bureaucratic AfD. ♪Tstorm(talk)05:32, 19 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Merge with
Social Justice. If there's one thing we seem to have something close to consensus on it's that there's probably some content somewhere in here that might have some value even amongst people with delete !votes. A better discussion can be had over what's notable or not out of this over at the broader article. ♪Tstorm(talk)21:56, 26 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Strong Keep Purely keeping to the sources, there has been ample coverage and discussion of the term in itself, and as such, warrant notability. The commentators seeking to devoid or delete this page based on
WP:NOTDICTIONARY are missing the point. It's not so much an example of the term that that's the issue, it's entries that don't devolve onto it further than that that the policy is intending to eliminate.
Feminazi is an example of such. An ample page describing the cultural aspect of the term, to who it is applied, and the like certainly doesn't run afoul of it. Even keeping past that, easily meets
WP:GNG in all aspects.
Tutelary (
talk)
05:36, 19 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Sure. WP:GNG. Was also going to add to my original reason, that the page can/will probably be created once more has been written on it in various places. But definitely no reason to exist now. Got a good eyeroll outta me though.
Hustlecatdo it!05:53, 19 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Even if the arguments at RECENT gained consensus, they would make sense for a merge and redirect rather than a delete and salt that is being proposed. Article titles should guide to relevant content instead of blanked pages, and the references show widespread use of the term, so it's a likely search term. This AfD should be decided with the interest of readers in mind rather than those of editors defending this or that cause; and readers need to know what is it that is being referred to with this name by such fringe sources like The Washington Post or The Irish Times, either at this page or at some other containing the same material. All the arguments based on "this is too important" or "this is too unimportant" should be essentially ignored.
Diego (
talk)
12:31, 25 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete I originally edited this page to fix obvious POV issues and some (although admittedly not all) of the unreliable/discredited sources, and I'm pleased to see it's been restructured and improved since (despite the edit warring). Nonetheless I don't think this subject is worthy of a standalone article. I think it's worth considering added its content into the Gamergate article as a dedicated section though.
Randomwellwisher (
talk)
11:14, 19 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete and salt The term is fringe at best and this exact article was already deleted a month or so ago. The article itself is badly sourced and utterly redundant in terms of academic value. We already have a lengthy article on
Social Justice and don't need one for this weird pejorative --
109.148.127.93 (
talk)
11:44, 19 November 2014 (UTC)reply
The article also gives undue weight to a games journalist called Erik Kain. There is no evidence why this man should define the topic and he doesn't seem to have written any books or such on the subject of social justice. In fact the articles sourcing in general is weak and the definition doesn't fit how the term is used --
5.81.52.82 (
talk)
16:47, 24 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Removed SPA on the grounds that I am an active contributor, but due to the sensitive nature of the topic at hand, I would prefer to not involve myself and bring attention to my main account. -
64.235.72.185 (
talk)
01:59, 20 November 2014 (UTC)reply
I am fairly uncomfortable with the idea that you are both an established user AND editing with an IP. It sounds like you may be evading a COI.
Juno (
talk)
07:10, 25 November 2014 (UTC)reply
There was an AfD for it, I believe, although it may have been deleted before that. Is there no record of the deletion? Some people made compelling arguments for its deletion and it was thankfully successful, it should be listed here now that somebody felt the need to recreate so soon after the deletion of the first one, or this will keep happening --
109.148.127.93 (
talk)
22:01, 19 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Further note - Initial version of the article is very similar to the article that of the same name was deleted less than a month ago:
[9]. I'm unsurprised how
POV it is in tone, it is likely the article itself was written to prove a
WP:POINT --
5.81.52.82 (
talk)
22:58, 25 November 2014 (UTC)reply
an expired PROD deletion doesnt matter for anything. it just means that at one time a version has minimal to no sourcing - it was flagged - no one provided better sourcing or objected before a week had passed it was deleted. only in the case of a community consensus through an AfD would a previous version matter. --
TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom01:36, 26 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Weak keep The most relevant category for this term is
Category:Political metaphors referring to people. See other articles in there for a reference. I think this word has been covered in quite a lot of media recently, such as being explained several times in the Guardian for example. On the other hand, it's not as notable as
angry white male for example as that one is even found in dictionaries, so I'll mark this as weak keep --
Pudeo'12:41, 19 November 2014 (UTC)reply
You should post them here, I haven't seen the term used in serious news coverage or academic texts on social justice but if you can find good sources then we should keep it --
109.148.127.93 (
talk)
14:46, 20 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Strong Merge because no one ever says that and because it would be easy enough to create a section on the social justice article for online social justice movements where this term can be noted.--
The Devil's Advocatetlk.cntrb.18:23, 20 November 2014 (UTC)reply
except that it is not ever actually about "social justice", its primarily "anti feminist" and more generally "anti-something-that- we -think/claim- is-feminist- but- there- is- never- any- actual- examples- of"--
TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom21:40, 20 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete - We're not a dictionary, and there's no indication in sources that the pejorative itself is notable. News articles that mention the term do so to define the epithet for the reader, when they quote some gamergater who uses it. That's not an establisher of notability.
Tarc (
talk)
20:47, 20 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Comment without !voting at this time. The frequent use of SJW in
Gamergate controversy is incomprehensible without an acronym link. The acronym should be included somehow.
Robert McClenon (
talk)
That's one article, an iffy article at that. Also, the acronym "SJW" is referred to once in the article, the full description two other times. At the very most, a section can be added on the
Social justice article. But that is not my !vote.
Dave Dial (
talk)
06:12, 22 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete. The few sources actually about this term - rather than just discussing or mentioning it while covering another topic - do not rise above the spirit of DICDEF enough to justify a stand-alone article.--
Cúchullaint/
c14:08, 22 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Strong keep Anyone who even infrequently uses social media should have come across the term. I will agree that the article in it's current form definitely is not brilliant, but there should be something on the topic. —Frosty☃07:25, 24 November 2014 (UTC)reply
The problem is that there are very few sources and as such it is difficult to cover the topic properly, that is if it deserves an article on the project at all --
5.81.52.82 (
talk)
16:49, 24 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Merge, though I'm not sure of the best target. It is a
WP:NEO, and in light of being a negative-connotation word, should not be used in isolation without being able to fully give it context. As such it should be at the part of a larger article. I don't think that's
social justice because while loosely related to the concept, it's not really connected. It seems the best current location is
Gamergate controversy where the term got more light, though I'm aware there's other non-VG areas picking this up; however, other suggestions are possible. Deletion (or at least deletion without redirection) is inappropriate as the term is a valid search term and WP is not censored. --
MASEM (
t)
I'd suggest merging it along with feminazi and any others into an article about something along the lines of pejoratives associated with radical feminism.
HalfHat15:40, 24 November 2014 (UTC)reply
The problem here is that the largely ill-informed "keep because it's used a lot" votes confuse usage of the term with coverage of the term itself, as a pejorative word.
Feminazi has received significant coverage in sources on the nature of the word itself, which is why an article there is justified.
Tarc (
talk)
15:51, 24 November 2014 (UTC)reply
I am talking about the fact that for us to even have a "definition" for this article we need to stoop to a blogger, from a finance magazine none the less, because no actual reliable linguistic-based sources have covered the term - ie the "source" in the GG article. --
TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom21:55, 24 November 2014 (UTC)reply
The term has also been used in academic contexts outside of the GamerGate, by the
American Society for Public Administration where it refers to "new warriors of our times" that "fight with words instead of weapons and wage war within our society instead of on other shores", and by
The Stringerhere, where it's applied to someone fighting an unjust legal system.
Diego (
talk)
13:15, 25 November 2014 (UTC)reply
What makes you think
Social justice warrior (slur) and
Social justice warrior (activist) are separate things? To me they pretty much look like both have the same meaning. I have seen no reliable source in linguistics establishing Social justice warrior (slur) as a separate concept, unrelated to the idea of an activist fighting for social justice; in fact that's the very thing that is being critizised or ridiculed. The usage as slur is not about a separate concept, all references cover the same topic. Articles in Wikipedia are defined by what reliable sources say about a topic, so that distinction you make is OR unless a RS makes it.
Diego (
talk)
08:35, 26 November 2014 (UTC)reply
P.S. And if you read the academic reference I provided, it does establish criticism of SJWs by the general public as part of their defining characteristics, so yes we have a RS connecting both ideas.
Diego (
talk)
08:37, 26 November 2014 (UTC)reply
I was referring to this sentence, right in the introduction: "In advocating for unwelcome changes, these warriors are often accused of violating the social contract and being “Un-American”". It would have been nice if you asked without labeling my claims as
possibly false.
Diego (
talk)
13:57, 26 November 2014 (UTC)reply
If we are talking about a mere synonym for social justice advocacy, there is no basis for a separate article. If we are talking about the slur, there is insufficient evidence to establish notability. Which is the topic being proposed for this article?--
Trystan (
talk)
14:31, 26 November 2014 (UTC)reply
"A person who engages in social justice advocacy, and is critizised because of it" (which is how the academic paper describes the concept). This is not about the abstract idea of "social justice", but about the people who pursue it, and what media are saying about them; i.e. a
WP:SPINOUT of
social justice as a related subtopic. Academic sources and presence in the media don't establish notability in your book?
Diego (
talk)
15:09, 26 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete, per Cúchullain. It's not enough to have sources that merely use or define the term; we need reliable sources that are about the term itself. The current state of the article is simply a definition followed by a tangent regarding one instance of its use, and I see no evidence that a reliably-sourced article is possible on this topic at this time.--
Trystan (
talk)
04:22, 26 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Deletion of articles is not decided on the current state of articles, but on the existence of significant coverage of the topic at the reliable sources that describe it. We have plenty of reliable sources giving common characteristics of what a social justice warrior is.
Diego (
talk)
08:40, 26 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Most of those sources are blog posts. I'm not saying that there are none at all but saying "plenty of reliable sources" is exaggerating the amount of and quality of material that we do have access to --
5.81.52.82 (
talk)
12:56, 26 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Either keep per
WP:GNG or merge as a section at
social justice per
WP:PAGEDECIDE. In-depth coverage of the concept at an academic source and multiple high-profile news media establish this as a worthy topic, although placing it in context of the larger SJ article may provide a better structure. Also,
irrespective of the policies that would justify this result or the other, definitely those readers wanting to learn what "SJW" refers to should be given access to these high quality compiled references that talk about it, rather than a deleted page.
Diego (
talk)
09:32, 26 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Here's a bunch more of references that define, use and provide context for the concept:
[12][13] (in both cases used as a synonim of "civil rights champion"),
[14],
[15],
[16],
[17],
[18]. Those saying that sources don't exist beyond a dictionary definition may want to revisit their arguments.
Diego (
talk)
10:34, 26 November 2014 (UTC)reply
If you feel it is most appropriate to merge then I would say that is the way to go. This isn't notable enough by itself and if is can be tied to the real concept of social justice (rather than as a byword for anti-homophobia/anti-racism/anti-sexism as I generally see it used) then it should go there and be appropriately written and sourced --
5.81.52.82 (
talk)
12:53, 26 November 2014 (UTC)reply
I don't care either way. There's clear usage of the term in multiple sources with the meaning of someone who fights for social causes (which is seen as a good or bad thing depending on who you ask), it has been defined as such in an academic paper, and reliable newspapers are documenting how the Internet is using that meaning as a pejorative against people involved in the
GamerGate. To me that qualifies as a topic, but if people think that information fits better at
social justice, I'm fine with it.
Diego (
talk)
14:12, 26 November 2014 (UTC)reply
The first two of your sources use the phrase only once, in the headline. That's not the sort of source that is relevant for establishing notability. Other that, I see a handful of blog posts that don't for me collectively meet the test set out in
WP:N in terms of quality or depth of coverage.--
Trystan (
talk)
14:26, 26 November 2014 (UTC)reply
See
WP:JUSTABLOG and
WP:RSOPINION: "otherwise reliable news sources—for example, the website of a major news organization—that publish in a "blog" style format for some or all of their content may be as reliable as if published in a more "traditional" 20th-century format." The links above are by
ACLU,
The Stringer,
Boing Boing,
Spectator.co.uk or
The Nation, and there are plenty more where these came from; the whole space of online media are writing about SJWs, and many of them devote whole articles to the topic. (And BTW, how does it matter that the words "social justice warrior" are only uttered once? The whole ACLU and Stringer articles are about persons fitting the concept and defined by the writers with those words).
Diego (
talk)
15:09, 26 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete - I was just getting ready to nominate this for deletion myself and saw it was already up. (1) Not an encyclopedic topic, simple pejorative. (2) Non-notable neologism — recent creation which fails GNG. That the Gamergaters have made this a sort of slogan is neither here nor there — merge a line or two into that piece if necessary.
Carrite (
talk)
22:13, 26 November 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete per
WP:DICTIONARY,
User:Trystan, and
User:Carrite. Furthermore, the definition supplied here applies exclusively to its use by RSs surrounding the
Gamergate controversy. Outside of that, last I checked, its only use by non-extremist sites has been to refer to someone who co-opts social justice concepts and uses them as an excuse to harass others and/or justify their own bigotry (though I could be wrong). So, failing a delete, merge with
Social justice if a significant number of RSs discuss the term outside the context of Gamergate, or
Gamergate controversy otherwise.
Random theScrambled(?)22:39, 26 November 2014 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.