- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus with regards to deletion. Merger is an editorial decision not requiring an AfD. Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:13, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Professional Super Smash Bros. competition ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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WP:NOTGAMEGUIDE, trivia and primary sourced content including local tournaments. Author tried to add it to the main Super Smash Bros. Melee article, but it was removed [1] Once all the unwanted content is removed, there's not enough content to justify a standalone article. So merge to related articles which are already linked to from this page. Vaypertrail ( talk) 13:42, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions. Everymorning talk 14:13, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- Merge (or even just redirect) to respective game article sections on competitive play is most appropriate, based on the secondary source coverage. Then merge this specific title to Super_Smash_Bros.#Competitive_play. I suspect that there might eventually be enough coverage to spin out a fuller article summary style but if and when that happens, it should be sourced to secondary sources and not the mountain of primary sources as it is now. – czar 15:05, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. — JJMC89 ( T· E· C) 20:31, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- Keep I removed the list, though some major tournaments do have cited results in secondary sources,
Prisencolinensinainciusol's efforts are impressive and understandable. There are still 25 remaining sources including a documentary covering the scene. Multiple sources have emphysized the uniqueiness of the growth of competitive Melee. If merge to Melee may violate WP:TOOLONG. Also NOTGAMEGUIDE focuses on inuniverse information.
Valoem
talk
contrib
06:12, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
- No it wouldn't, content about players go in their articles (which is about half of it), The Smash Brothers already has a page, remove the how-to content, and Major League Gaming already has a page, that's 90% of it gone.-- Vaypertrail ( talk) 07:06, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
- Keep I don't understand why you think info about the competitive scene is okay on the player's pages, MLG and The Smash Brothers, but not on its own page or elsewhere. If we only have it on player pages then we get an non NPOV summary of major smash tournaments. For an analogy, you can't give an impartial History of the National Basketball Association solely through information on the History of the New York Knicks and other teams. Also, where exactly is the how-to content on this page? -- Prisencolinensinainciusol ( talk) 04:45, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
- Comment: Other than the first few, the tournaments listed here had competitors attend from all of the US and in many cases internationally. As Valoem stated there's a lot of media coverage about Smash Bros. tournaments, probably enough so to justify this article and the list of tournaments. However, if the list isn't notable enough for Wikipedia I'd say it might as well just get merged into the main SSBM article.-- Prisencolinensinainciusol ( talk) 22:06, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
I think there's a future for this article but I'm not sure the content is there now. Either the article should be expanded or there should be a judicious merge to Super Smash Bros.#Competitive play (keeping in mind WP:Summary style) and other articles and then a subsequent redirect to the same section. (It's fun how a comment can recommends two mutually exclusive options.)
I've always found tournament listings as were here (whether physical or virtual sports) to be on the verge of WP:TRIVIA. -- Izno ( talk) 16:58, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
- It's the major tournament that make up the competitive Smash Bros. scene, so I wouldn't really say it's very trivial. I can understand that you'd think that way if you don't follow the professional players but none-the-less the tournaments listed here are well documented and relatively well known.--
Prisencolinensinainciusol (
talk)
04:50, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
- The funny fact is that I do follow them. Don't presume, please. The problem with such listings in general is that they fall in the WP:INDISCRIMINATE pile of stuff and provide no interesting WP:Summary style information that is published by reliable sources seeking to understand their meaning. I quite clearly qualified it by saying "all such listings verge on WP:TRIVIA", so also do not presume to imply that it was specifically Smash tournament listings with which I have issue. To expand a bit further, it gets into issues of WP:WEIGHT in a large majority of cases. -- Izno ( talk) 13:31, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
- I wouldn't say that it's an indiscriminate list of information, since these tournaments are recognized as national-level tournaments. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "provide no interesting WP:Summary style information". I mean if it came down to it a prose description of all of the tournaments would just be written. That being said, in order to conform to WP notability standards the list would probably have to be trimmed down. Perhaps it would be best to only include tournaments from 2013-onward.-- Prisencolinensinainciusol ( talk) 19:02, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
- It's the major tournament that make up the competitive Smash Bros. scene, so I wouldn't really say it's very trivial. I can understand that you'd think that way if you don't follow the professional players but none-the-less the tournaments listed here are well documented and relatively well known.--
Prisencolinensinainciusol (
talk)
04:50, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — ☮ JAaron95 Talk 13:21, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
- Merge - The massive chart is WP:GAMECRUFT, and once you trim out the excessive stuff (like these all these names/nicknames of people who have no article or context to them), there's really not enough to warrant a stand-alone article. Sergecross73 msg me 13:12, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
- Comment I know that there are tons of sources right now which extensively document the competitive scene. Sources provided by Prisencolinensinainciusol already suggest that a merge may be too long for the SSBM article. Other editors such as UltraDark who is familiar with FGC may be able to help as well. In the past 2 years smash has received more coverage that Professional StarCraft competition. Valoem talk contrib 22:07, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
- Sources posted:
- Crossley, Rob.
"Super Smash Bros Tournament Endorsed by Nintendo".
Gamespot. Retrieved 2015-08-20.
The article notes:
Nintendo has signed a sponsorship deal with the games tournament group Apex, endorsing the event's quartet of Smash Bros competitions.Apex 2015, a three-day pro-games tournament which starts on January 30, will include individual competitions on all four games in the Nintendo series; Super Smash Bros for the N64, Super Smash Bros Melee for the GameCube, Super Smash Bros Brawl for the Wii, and the recently released Super Smash Bros for Wii U.First details of the partnership were announced via Apex's official twitter feed. "We are pleased to announce that Apex 2015 is partnering with Nintendo of America to bring an incredible Smash Bros event," the team wrote.
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"Feature: The History of Super Smash Bros".
Nintendo Life. 2014-08-28. Retrieved 2015-08-20.
{{ cite news}}:|first=missing|last=( help)The article notes:
For the average player, wavedashing and other unofficial techniques were of little relevance, but the reason why they’re so significant is because they helped to catapult Melee into the competitive gaming scene. The advanced level of control required to perform many of these actions quickly created a clear distinction between pro and more casual players. As a result, Melee has enjoyed great lasting appeal, and still makes regular appearances at many high-profile gaming tournaments.
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"Competitive Smash is having a moment, but its players can't even agree on a game".
ArsTechnica. 2015-05-17. Retrieved 2015-08-20.
{{ cite news}}:|first=missing|last=( help)The article notes:
His last two games have taken this logic to heart. Melee’s speed has been integral to its appeal as a competitive game. Top players can mash up to six to seven inputs a second, on par with Starcraft.
- 4. Also this source from Tech Times which states:
- "The longevity of Melee was bolstered further by an increasingly large focus on tournament play. While it was never strictly built for high-level competition, Melee attracted a huge number of players that focused on playing the game competitively. The phrase "Final Destination, no items," became standard rhetoric for the game, and the tournament scene continues to thrive even 13 years after Melee was released."
This subject needs expansion not deletion. The subject has been covered by reliable sources and passed WP:GNG. There are tons more sources regarding the growth of this scene. Izno, Sergecross73 Valoem talk contrib 00:48, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
- The article's from NintendoLife and Techtimes really focus much more on the game series itself than the competition. (They're both called "The History of Smash Bros" after all, and detail the series as a whole from its inception.) They really only reiterate my point that a merge is a appropriate. (If the sources talk in passing of the competitive nature in discussion of the overall series, then it makes more sense that we do the same, and have this be a subsection in our Smash Bros article.) I can't comment on the Ars Technica source, as you added the wrong link for that one. The very brief GameSpot article, while fine, could basically be used for a singular sentence to the capacity of "Nintendo is sponsoring a tournament with this company on that date. Not much to expand on there... Sergecross73 msg me 13:11, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
There are a couple more sources, one from MLG and one from USGamer that I uncovered in the context of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/SmashBoards that I think definitely establish notability for this topic and which could lead to WP:SIZE/ WP:WEIGHT problems in the series-proper article. My inclination is, as with Smashboards, to a weak keep. -- Izno ( talk) 16:13, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
- If you guys are just looking at sources that describe the existence of competitive smash as a whole, you're ignoring all of the sources that describe various players and aspects of the competitive scene. I'll need to read about this more but the way I see
WP:GNG is that the existence of sources that "talk around" or allude to a particular subject should be enough to establish notability.--
Prisencolinensinainciusol (
talk)
02:25, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- The GNG is pretty explicit that "talking around it" is not
"Significant coverage", [which] addresses the topic directly and in detail
. The players is not the topic (which is professional Smash). I'm not sure what you mean by "aspects" but I presume you're talking about the advanced techs which again do not address the scene. My weak keep is based on the existence of articles such as the MLG and the USGamer articles I noted. -- Izno ( talk) 14:42, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- The GNG is pretty explicit that "talking around it" is not
- If you guys are just looking at sources that describe the existence of competitive smash as a whole, you're ignoring all of the sources that describe various players and aspects of the competitive scene. I'll need to read about this more but the way I see
WP:GNG is that the existence of sources that "talk around" or allude to a particular subject should be enough to establish notability.--
Prisencolinensinainciusol (
talk)
02:25, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MBisanz talk 21:23, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- There's a published book about competitive Smash too that should be considered. (Team Ben: A Year As A Pro Gamer, Fabiszak, Christopher K., 2013)--
Prisencolinensinainciusol (
talk)
07:09, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- Is it actually "published" though, or did he just self-submit it to Kindle type download sources. I could only find evidence of the latter, which would be less impactful... Sergecross73 msg me 15:57, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
- There is a print version of the book, that I know. However it really shouldn't really matter too much.--
Prisencolinensinainciusol (
talk)
20:05, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
- Here is a good source which covers the competitive scene significantly. Valoem talk contrib 21:03, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.