- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Liz Read! Talk! 07:48, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
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- Plot armor ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
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Seems to be more of a How-To Article than a Wikipedia article. Relativity 20:15, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Authors, Fictional elements, and Literature. Relativity 20:15, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
- On August 18, 2020, I deleted a section of Plot device called "Plot armor" because it had been unreferenced for more than a year.— Anita5192 ( talk) 20:50, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
- ( edit conflict) Comment The article is rather poor (though in fairness it was only created 12 minutes prior to the deletion nomination), but the concept is likely notable. That doesn't necessarily mean it should have a stand-alone article (might be better to cover it as part of some other article per WP:PAGEDECIDE), but it probably could. TompaDompa ( talk) 20:52, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: I'm going to bet myself a nickel that I can HEY this, per TompaDompa. It's a term in the common lexicon of modern popular media, so I'm almost certain that there is enough RS material out there to demonstrate notability. Expect improvements to come inside of 24 hours. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 21:22, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
- Delete - Not notable enough to warrant its own article. Might be worth reinserting section in plot device mentioned above but with a reliable source if findable. Rambling Rambler ( talk) 23:00, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
- Move to draft and improve. This is a highly notable trope in fiction, up there with the Mary Sue, but needs development to merit inclusion in mainspace. BD2412 T 00:14, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: While I'm not in the literary scene, the Wikipedia Library got me access to a handful of sources that provided rudimentary definitions and examples of this concept. While what I've added to the article right now is probably only just on the cusp of demonstrating GNG (mostly a question of SIGCOV), I'm now certain this is notable. For the references lacking links, please refer to the Wikipedia Library. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 05:57, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- Comment Eh... I'm not convinced. The references amount to two literal dictionary definitions and a handful of sources that use the term as a descriptor. The expansion, though well intentioned, thus verges on original research. I'd want to see at least one reliable source that discusses the concept itself, in depth.
Jfire (
talk)
06:19, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- The Somers and McGowan sources provide more explicit definitions of plot armor. Additionally, usage of the term in academic texts suggests its notability. Without access to the OED definition, I don't have the citations that they may have used to provide their definition. ~
Pbritti (
talk)
06:35, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- @ Pbritti I don't think those citations are likely to be useful for showing notability anyway, since the OED's business is to find the earliest possible example, not to point readers to the most in-depth sources. -- asilvering ( talk) 09:05, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
- The Somers and McGowan sources provide more explicit definitions of plot armor. Additionally, usage of the term in academic texts suggests its notability. Without access to the OED definition, I don't have the citations that they may have used to provide their definition. ~
Pbritti (
talk)
06:35, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep if not then draftify, notable trope also something of note the page was created at 20:03, 31 January 2024, it was AFDed at 20:15 the same day. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 19:17, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- Move to draft and improve. This concept needs several reputable sources. I am an amateur fiction writer, and I have never heard of this outside of Wikipedia.— Anita5192 ( talk) 19:36, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. Pbritti has completely transformed this article. It is now encyclopedic and meets GNG. -- asilvering ( talk) 09:03, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
- Delete There isn't WP:SIGCOV for this. A few of the WP:TRIVIALMENTIONS aren't much more than a WP:DICTIONARY definition, and most are barely related to the concept at all. I wouldn't object to draftifying, but this seems like a WP:TNT situation where there isn't much to preserve. The "Articles for Creation" process is a good idea, and this would be an example of what not to do. Shooterwalker ( talk) 16:14, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. The current article sourcing looks good to me. The article could also be expanded further with coverage of plot armor in interactive media. I find an entire chapter on plot armor, called "Plot Armor", in
this book about role-playing games. The chapter itself is not in the free preview but it's listed in the table of contents; based on the author's discussion of
fixed points in time here (a chapter that references the plot armor chapter) I believe it's a proper SIGCOV analysis of how the trope itself functions. There's also a page of analysis of plot armor on p 98 of
this essay, also not readable to me right now. My search preview says "The only way Mercer could prevent queer death in Critical Role would be by giving certain characters Plot Armor, a trope where “a main character’s life and health are safeguarded by …" -- in context this section is leading up to a substantial analysis of character death, in which the plot armor trope will be examined for its narrative implications. In other words, both sources present analysis rather than trivial mentions.
~ L 🌸 (
talk)
- There are several other similar books that document this concept (and the similar plot immunity) but most appear to be self-published or come from publishers that don't possess formal editorial oversight. I refrained from using these sources when I expanded the article, preferring limited coverage in RSs. I wonder if there is SOGCOV in print texts from RS publishers that we're missing, though. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 17:24, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: At this point, the sourcing is sufficient. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cortador ( talk • contribs) 12:10, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep Like the keep opinions before me, I see now enough sourced material for an article beyond a dictionary definition. Currently it is not a very long article, but no good merge target comes to mind. Daranios ( talk) 16:18, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- Merge to protagonist, what is here is largely a dictionary definition. Generally speaking, "plot armor" tends to involve the protagonists escaping harm repeatedly because they are important to the story. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ ( ᴛ) 17:03, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: Meets notability and SIGCOV. The Herald (Benison) ( talk) 07:01, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Seraphimblade Talk to me 03:55, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: Has decent sourcing, is a notable concept. It comes up a lot in discussions about media such as video games. StreetcarEnjoyer ( talk) 19:07, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep, per the massive improvements that have been made since the beginning of this discussion. On another note, nominating an article on a subject like this for deletion (that isn't promotion, spam, etc -- a topic which is mentioned and talked about pretty broadly, and which WP:BEFORE revealed a wealth of sources for) twelve minutes after its creation seems like rather bad manners to me. jp× g 🗯️ 03:50, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per the work put in by Pbritti. I concur with the assessment from BD2412 that this is functionally at the same (or near same) literary level as Mary Sue, and I'm satisfied with the present sourcing. I also echo the sentiments of JPxG that nominating an article for deletion within ~12 minutes of it's creation should generally be avoided for the future, barring the exceptions noted. — Sirdog ( talk) 05:54, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.