Wikipedia:articles For Deletion Plane Shootdown Over Syke

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Accidents and incidents involving the Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress#1940s. Consensus is against keeping. There is some disagreement between delete and merge, so redirect is a compromise: it allows editors to decide what if anything to merge. Sandstein 18:13, 18 March 2022 (UTC) reply

Plane shootdown over Syke

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

(Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Nothing notable about this war-time accident. A bomber was shot down. How often did that happen? Over a thousand times. Wikipedia is not a memorial. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 15:05, 2 March 2022 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 15:05, 2 March 2022 (UTC) reply
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 15:05, 2 March 2022 (UTC) reply
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Aviation-related deletion discussions. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 15:05, 2 March 2022 (UTC) reply
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 15:05, 2 March 2022 (UTC) reply
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 15:05, 2 March 2022 (UTC) reply

Yes, bombers being shot down over Germany happened hundreds of times during the Second World War and that in and of itself is not notable but what is notable is that the tail gunner, Eugene Moran survived a fall from at least 8 000 meters in the severed tail of the B-17. If you can point me to at least three other instances where crew men survived falls from such heights trapped in parts of their planes without a parachute then I will agree that this instance is not notable but otherwise I have to disagree with your assessment. EU-DE-NRW-SI ( talk) 15:24, 2 March 2022 (UTC) reply
- What's the source for that claim. A website that wouldn't pass WP:RS and a paid obituary. Those always fail as a reliable source. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 15:45, 2 March 2022 (UTC) reply
  - The sources are the American Air Museum in Britain, the NRD and the Kreiszeitung (a local newspaper). EU-DE-NRW-SI ( talk) 16:02, 2 March 2022 (UTC) reply
    - Your sources are a small local newspaper and, in the Weblinks (this is straight out of the de-wiki?) a few links to what appears to be a regional TV station. A museum doesn't count: we need reliable secondary sources. BTW, even if those sources were acceptable, what you're doing in the infobox, and in general with all these redlinks, is clearly in contradiction with the spirit if not the letter of WP:NOTMEMORIAL. Drmies ( talk) 16:18, 2 March 2022 (UTC) reply
      - So just to avoid any misunderstandings the NRD which is part of the Germany wide public broadcasters ARD does not count as a reliable source? EU-DE-NRW-SI ( talk) 16:24, 2 March 2022 (UTC) reply
        User:EU-DE-NRW-SI, first of all, please follow the advice in Wikipedia:Colons and asterisks. Second, you know as well as I do that "Hallo Niedersachsen" is hardly a national program, even though it's on a large public broadcaster (and one of the links isn't going anywhere--plus, you should cite them as references then, not as "Weblinks"). Besides, some TV coverage is not the same as printed sources. Drmies ( talk) 16:36, 2 March 2022 (UTC) reply
        @Drmies But this exabit in the American Air Museum in Britain is a written source which recounts the incident. EU-DE-NRW-SI ( talk) 16:49, 2 March 2022 (UTC) reply
To everyone interested in participating in this discussion please read my revision of the article as a basis of your decision since WilliamJE continuously deletes crucial parts of the article, including the fact that the tail gunner survived a fall from at least 8 000 meters without a parachute in the severed tail section of the B-17 which (in short) only leaves "B-17 shot down over Germany" to then claim that there was noting notable about this incident and that the article should be deleted. EU-DE-NRW-SI ( talk) 16:45, 2 March 2022 (UTC) reply
- EU-DE-NRW-SI, please tone down the rhetoric a bit, with all that bold. Crucial parts ought to be well-referenced; they do not appear to be. An exhibit in a museum is not generally a reliable source, and at any rate, a. you didn't use it as a reference, and b. they are newspaper articles but without bibliographical information, and so their reliability is not a given. Drmies ( talk) 20:24, 2 March 2022 (UTC) reply
~~Delete~~ The fact that the tail gunner survived a fall of 8000 meters is unusual, but not notable by Wikipedia standards unless it meets WP:NEVENT. I wasn't able to find any additional sources besides the ones posted here and in the article, and don't believe the sources demonstrate the depth, persistence, or diversity to meet NEVENT. Qwaiiplayer ( talk) 19:19, 2 March 2022 (UTC) reply
- Merge to Accidents and incidents involving the Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress per RandomCanadian below as ATD. Enough sources for a mention in that article even if it doesn't have enough for a stand alone. Qwaiiplayer ( talk) 17:31, 5 March 2022 (UTC) reply
Strong Keep This article needs work, for example adding in the two newspaper articles that are located here https://www.americanairmuseum.com/media/37742 but it's clearly a notable event that's made the newspapers a few times, and and had even recent coverage. I think the article needs to be cited better, but I added the sign in Skye and a English language news source that I easily found online, so it seems to meet the general notability criteria. CT55555 ( talk) 21:45, 2 March 2022 (UTC) reply
- CT55555, can you please identify in what newspapers those articles were published, and when, and what the status/reliability of those newspapers is? Drmies ( talk) 01:46, 3 March 2022 (UTC) reply
  - I've contacted the museum to try and do that, in the context of them being a museum archive, we can surely assume they are authentic and reliable enough for the Imperial War Museum's collection. Hand written notes presumably by museum staff suggest 1945 for one of them. As for the details, I have no idea how quickly they will reply, so this may take time. I suggest we focus on improving this article, as I have done so, as is the spirit of AfD policy, and accept that it may take time to get the newspaper stuff in. CT55555 ( talk) 01:50, 3 March 2022 (UTC) reply
    - I suggest that if you cannot find sourcing in the normal way, then there isn't much notability there. Drmies ( talk) 01:59, 3 March 2022 (UTC) reply
      Let me summarize and see if I can persuade you:
      
      - US news: https://www.swnews4u.com/local/spotlight/soldiers-grove-veteran-survived-four-mile-fall-over-nazi-germany/
      
      - Memorial plaque (signs in public are valid for Wikipedia sourcing) /info/en/?search=Plane_shootdown_over_Syke#/media/File:Absturzstelle_-_Gedenkst%C3%A4tte.jpg
      
      - https://www.kreiszeitung.de/lokales/diepholz/syke-ort44535/november-1943-ende-rikki-tikki-tavi-10557112.html
      
      - https://www.kreiszeitung.de/lokales/diepholz/syke-ort44535/syke-jahre-danach-gedenken-amerikaner-deutsche-einer-episode-krieg-10772484.html
      
      - Three circa 1945 newspaper cuttings in a museum archive that I'm in the process of getting details on
      
      - a book (that you say may be self published, which would not fully discount it) https://www.amazon.de/Luftkrieg-Region-Zeitzeugenberichte-Archiveinblicke-Kaack/dp/3981927001
      
      - A book coming out this year http://www.johnmarmbruster.com/author.html
      
      I think these nine sources combined (even if some are not strong) is enough to establish notability. No? CT55555 ( talk) 02:05, 3 March 2022 (UTC) reply
Comment I did some copy edits. Also, as this article points out this book writes about the incident. I don't know if it's appropriate to cite a book because we know it talks about the incident without actually reading the book, so I won't do that, but this sways me from keep to strong keep, so I'm also changing what I said above now I see that. CT55555 ( talk) 22:30, 2 March 2022 (UTC) reply
- I looked at that book: this search for its ISBN should indicate sufficiently that whatever this book is, whatever this publisher is, it's not much--the name suggests it's self-published. Drmies ( talk) 01:59, 3 March 2022 (UTC) reply
  I do agree, it seems likely self published. But it's still secondary, nobody is suggesting it's self published by anyone affiliated with the event, I think. CT55555 ( talk) 02:14, 3 March 2022 (UTC) reply
Delete Insufficient signficant coverage for WP:GNG for a single aircraft downing; museum blurbs and mentions don't cut it. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 04:30, 3 March 2022 (UTC) reply
Delete Of the newspaper sources in the article, swnews4u is a "collaboration of nine community newspapers in southwestern Wisconsin" ( [1]) and the German articles seem to be typical local coverage as well. These don't, in my view, cut it for WP:SIGCOV purposes. As for the plague, we have no idea who authored the text, so we should presumably view it as an anonymously produced WP:SPS. The book source identified above appears to be both self-published, so it doesn't count unless it is established that it was written by an established domain expert. Furthermore, nobody has been able to identify what it says about the event. Overall, I'm not seeing the SIGCOV needed to establish notability. - Ljleppan ( talk) 09:10, 3 March 2022 (UTC) reply
Also happy with a merge as suggested below. - Ljleppan ( talk) 07:34, 12 March 2022 (UTC) reply

The shootdown of the aircraft is not notable. WP:ONEEVENT applies here to the unusual fortune in surviving. Suggest merging any pertinent facts to Falling_(accident)#Surviving_falls with a possible redirect for the gunner's name. GraemeLeggett ( talk) 12:44, 3 March 2022 (UTC) reply
Comment By searching using the name of the rear tail gunner "Eugene Moran" and "Gene Moran" combined with his home city of "Soldiers Grove" and/or "B-17" it is easy to find many more sources, of variable quality. I've added a few of the better ones. I think the survival of a free fall of about 4 miles is quite unusual and there is a lot of people writing about it online. The sources also speak about the two books written about the event, so I've created a "in popular culture" and mentioned them, I've not used the books as sources themselves, as I've not read them, although I'm perhaps being a bit caution here, books about the event surely mention the event. Anyway, as this is contentious, I'm erring on the side of caution. CT55555 ( talk) 13:02, 3 March 2022 (UTC) reply

One of the sources you found gives thirteen examples of aircrew surviving falling to earth in the wreckage. GraemeLeggett ( talk) 19:59, 3 March 2022 (UTC) reply

I said it was "quite unusual". If the counter argument is that it's been documented thirteen times in human history, I'll stand by my comment. CT55555 ( talk) 20:05, 3 March 2022 (UTC) reply

Delete As I am not really seeing a lot of sourcing here. Unsure this passes GNG. Slatersteven ( talk) 13:10, 3 March 2022 (UTC) reply
Delete Not seeing enough solid sourcing to meet GNG in my view. Intothat darkness 13:31, 3 March 2022 (UTC) reply
Delete per Drmies' cogent arguments, and a dearth of the necessary WP:SIGCOV to justify a standalone article. SN54129 13:33, 3 March 2022 (UTC) reply
Merge to Accidents and incidents involving the Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress as a valid alternative to deletion. There is certainly some content about this which is from both independent and reliable sources. Of course, not the only B-17 crewmember to whom this happened ( [2]), but this is probably unusual enough that it would warrant some mention there. RandomCanadian ( talk / contribs) 15:13, 5 March 2022 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: let's see if a relist brings some consensus
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Star Mississippi 02:11, 10 March 2022 (UTC) reply

Comment I already voted to delete, but would not be opposed to a merge of relevant information as suggested by a couple of participants above. Intothat darkness 20:28, 11 March 2022 (UTC) reply
I likewise have voted, in the opposite direction, quite strongly. But recognize that I hold a very small minority view and appear to be on the losing side of this debate, and also concur that the merge seems like a sensible compromise, in the spirit of trying to reach consensus. CT55555 ( talk) 20:33, 11 March 2022 (UTC) reply
Likewise happy with a merge, and amended my vote above as such. - Ljleppan ( talk) 07:35, 12 March 2022 (UTC) reply
Comment There appears to be a clear consensus for a merge at this time, with relevant information going to Accidents and incidents involving the Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress or Falling_(accident)#Surviving_falls. Intothat darkness 21:32, 15 March 2022 (UTC) reply
Delete not particularly notworthy among the thousands of wartime incidents and the text in Accidents and incidents involving the Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress is sufficient so doesnt really need a merge. MilborneOne ( talk) 13:07, 16 March 2022 (UTC) reply
Delete, particularly per Milborne1, and I commend WilliamJE for their continued efforts to maintain the article to a policy-compliant standard, even throughout this AfD. SN54129 12:03, 18 March 2022 (UTC) reply
Merge into Accidents and incidents involving the Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress. It would be a pity for the extra nuggets of information on this page were lost if there was a deletion without merging information. Gusfriend ( talk) 12:15, 18 March 2022 (UTC) reply
Strong Keep per the sole reason for being nommed is "Nothing notable about this war-time accident" when, in fact, "...including the tail gunner who survived a fall of 28,000 feet inside the tail section of the aircraft" is as notable as can be. Randy Kryn ( talk) 12:26, 18 March 2022 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.