- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. There is no consensus that this article should be removed. I would suggest a wider RFC or similar discussion around the notability requirements for tiny places. Stifle ( talk) 11:22, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
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- Oriole, Kentucky ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
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Does not look to meet WP:GEOLAND. Not mentioned in Rennick's Hopkins County guide, and the only mentions of Oriole in his index are a Locale (geography) and a mine. Locales do not pass GEOLAND, as by definition, locales are not places with permanent human population. Topograhpic maps show two or three buildings next to a railroad spur going to a mine. Newspapers.com hits are for names and the Baltimore Orioles. Google books hits are for birds and a hit for some form of railroad feature at Oriole. It was apparently mentioned in a '70s rock song, but the RS haven't given it any significant coverage over that. Hog Farm Bacon 20:31, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Hog Farm Bacon 20:31, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Kentucky-related deletion discussions. Hog Farm Bacon 20:31, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- Delete I looked at pre-1953 newspaper references to cut down on the baseball articles, and I actually found a number of references to the Oriole mine, but all of them explicitly called it a mine; none of them even mentioned a community or a company town by the same name. Based on the evidence we have I'd guess this is another case of GNIS mislabeling a mine as a community. TheCatalyst31 Reaction• Creation 22:10, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
COMMENT: Is an unincorporated area a legally recognized place? If yes then it meets GEOLAND. If not, then it does not. The Ace in Spades ( talk) 01:53, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- "Legally recognized" might be taken to mean that an unincorporated place, its boundaries and government undefined, would fail such a test. In practice we have not been able to agree on what constitutes legal recognition.
Mangoe (
talk)
04:12, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Also, about the alternate name of "Pleasant View Lake" in the article (and GNIS), the topos clearly show Pleasant View Lake as a nearby lake. Hog Farm Bacon 04:31, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- "Legally recognized" might be taken to mean that an unincorporated place, its boundaries and government undefined, would fail such a test. In practice we have not been able to agree on what constitutes legal recognition.
Mangoe (
talk)
04:12, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- delete The topos are something of a mess, but between them and aerial photography it seems clear that Oriole was the name of the rail junction. In any case there's no evidence in any era of a town. Mangoe ( talk) 04:12, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Keep - Not sure about this. I see a lot of sources calling this a "populated place" according to the USGS (e.g., see here, here, here). Checking the GNIS data for Kentucky I also see this listing:
- "508756|Oriole|Populated Place|KY|21|Hopkins|107|371752N|0873413W|37.297823|-87.5702798|||||121|397|Madisonville West|09/20/1979|"
- So, it's not simply a "locale" but instead a populated place with some level of recognition and thus a keep for
WP:GEOLAND. I could also see a merge to
Madisonville as it appears to be part of it instead of deletion. I'm not going to simply trust eye-balling of current maps as conclusive that the place was never populated if the USGS say otherwise.
FOARP (
talk)
09:26, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- @ FOARP: - The GNIS data also called the thing deleted at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fish Pond, Kentucky a "populated place", when every other source called it a pond, so I'm not sure that a claim of a GNIS "populated place" is necessarily an indication of a GEOLAND pass. Hog Farm Bacon 20:08, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Further discussion to determine if the USGS data does demonstrate the requirements of WP:GEOLAND would help in forming a clearer consensus
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ~ mazca talk 13:46, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Relisting comment: Further discussion to determine if the USGS data does demonstrate the requirements of WP:GEOLAND would help in forming a clearer consensus
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ~ mazca talk 13:46, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- Neutral. This location appears to have been a mine. The GNIS cites Rennick as it's source of information, but Rennick does not identify the location as a community. As seen in recent Deletion discussions where the GNIS has claimed that fords [1], a fish pond [2] and a rail switches [3] to be unincorporated communities the source of the data needs to be checked to see that it matches up to what is claimed.
- It appears that the "fact" that the song 'All the Way from Memphis' refers to oriole Kentucky has actually come from Wikipedia itself. The source given in the main article to cite this fact does not refer to Oriole, Kentucky, simply 'another state' [4]. At various times the article has claimed that the song refers to 'the orioles' [5], Baltimore [6], Oriole, Kentucky [7] and "Oriole" (Baltimore) [8]. The current claim about the song referring to Oriole, Kentucky was inserted in an unsourced IP edit 3 years ago [9]. The songfacts source added to the article is user generated content and was only written a couple of months ago, so it's likely that claim came from Wikipedia.
- The sources added by FOARP do seem to suggest that this place may have a claim to notability as a mine, but I'm not quite sure whether there's enough in depth coverage of the place. If it is kept the article should be trimmed of the unverifiable claims about there being a community there.
192.76.8.82 (
talk)
16:40, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
-
I've found sources mentioning the song going back to 2010 (EDIT:
2009 actually), so I'm not sure Wiki is the ultimate source.
FOARP (
talk)
19:49, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- @
FOARP: The claim that the song specifically refers to Oriole, Kentucky was first inserted in an unsourced IP edit in September 2008
[10]. It was flagged as unsourced in 2009 by a user who noted that the spelling in the lyrics was different from the spelling of the town name
[11]. Apart from a few back and forth edits about whether the song was referring to Oriole, Kentucky or Baltimore the statement sat in the article unsourced until April 2018 when the source that doesn't really support the statement that the song is specifically about Kentucky was added
[12]. The earliest references I can find that state the song is specifically referring to a location in Kentucky are from October 2008, about a month after the statement was added to the article
[13], I've been unable to locate anything that predates the addition of the statement to Wikipedia. It may very well be correct and someone with better source finding skills may be able to turn up something that predates September 2008, but at the moment it looks to me like a lot of circular referencing.
192.76.8.82 (
talk)
00:59, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
- You'd hope that, as a prominent music journalist - maybe the UK's most prominent at the moment? - John Harris would be an RS for this kind of information. Unfortunately none of the big autobiographies/histories/diaries of Mott the Hoople and its members are online to add a back-up source - most I can see is general guides to Glam Rock that state that the song was based on "something that happened" to their guitarist. Based simply on Harris being the source I'd lean towards it being true. FOARP ( talk) 09:08, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
- PS - regarding the mine, this is the subject of a number of page-length articles on mining safety in various contemporary journals, so that angle is worth considering as well. I've got to say this is an interesting case as it means we've got to look at Glam Rock on the one hand and mining on the other! FOARP ( talk) 13:23, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
- @
FOARP: The claim that the song specifically refers to Oriole, Kentucky was first inserted in an unsourced IP edit in September 2008
[10]. It was flagged as unsourced in 2009 by a user who noted that the spelling in the lyrics was different from the spelling of the town name
[11]. Apart from a few back and forth edits about whether the song was referring to Oriole, Kentucky or Baltimore the statement sat in the article unsourced until April 2018 when the source that doesn't really support the statement that the song is specifically about Kentucky was added
[12]. The earliest references I can find that state the song is specifically referring to a location in Kentucky are from October 2008, about a month after the statement was added to the article
[13], I've been unable to locate anything that predates the addition of the statement to Wikipedia. It may very well be correct and someone with better source finding skills may be able to turn up something that predates September 2008, but at the moment it looks to me like a lot of circular referencing.
192.76.8.82 (
talk)
00:59, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
-
I've found sources mentioning the song going back to 2010 (EDIT:
2009 actually), so I'm not sure Wiki is the ultimate source.
FOARP (
talk)
19:49, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: despite further discussion, there is still not a clear consensus yet, would benefit from an additional week.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Eddie891 Talk Work 17:02, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
Relisting comment: despite further discussion, there is still not a clear consensus yet, would benefit from an additional week.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Eddie891 Talk Work 17:02, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Keep Whether it's a mine or a community, it appears to have enough couverage to meet the GNG bar, particularly the articles on mining safety. ~ EDDY ( talk/ contribs)~ 20:30, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Delete Run-of-the-mill mine does not have significant coverage about itself or a supposed community. Sources are not specifically about this site, being a strike covering mines in several counties and reports on routine incidents and output at all mines. Reywas92 Talk 18:58, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- The mine safety articles are page-length articles in state/national level journals - not trivial mentions or run-of-the-mill. FOARP ( talk) 11:09, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- Keep: An informative and well-referenced encyclopedia article containing source-supported details.-- Concertmusic ( talk) 19:05, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- Keep: At the time of creation, this article was definitely a dog, but as of right now, there have been substantial improvements (in content as well as in referencing) -- I recommend that previous delete !voters go back over the article and reconsider. The section on the mine is very well-referenced, and the various things that happened there -- its establishment, the walkouts, the accidents, the redevelopment -- are notable enough to warrant inclusion on Wikipedia. jp× g 20:45, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- Rename to Oriole mine: Please see comments below. Otr500 ( talk) 14:01, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- While there is a continual need to expand Wikipedia there needs to be limits to including trivial or not accurate information just because it is on a list. A look at information from the "ISPRS Technical Commission" might help.
- Populated place:
Place or area with clustered or scattered buildings and a permanent human population (city, settlement, town, village). A populated place is usually not incorporated and by definition has no legal boundaries. However, a populated place may have a corresponding "civil" record, the legal boundaries of which may or may not coincide with the perceived populated place. Distinct from Census and Civil classes.
- Locale:
Place at which there is or was human activity; it does not include populated places, mines, and dams but does include battlefield, crossroad, camp, farm, ghost town, landing, railroad siding, ranch, ruins, site, station, windmill.
- If there is such indecision or lack of consensus then maybe a RFC would help give clarification. Accepting the listing of a mudhole because it is on a GNIS list (as a sole authority for notability), as some indication of inherent notability, borders on insanity. All of our current accepted practices for inclusion include sourcing criteria for verification. Apparent historical information about a place should not be used to classify such a place as "populated" (or once populated) when there is no other evidence (sourcing) to indicate such a place exists or existed as named. Two or three houses do not constitute a "community" or "populated place", just because they are in close proximity, if there is not supporting current or historical sourcing.
- This is actually not complicated as all one needs to do is look at the sources on the article that are predominantly about coal, coal mining and the "ORIOLE MINE" not a town or community. PS, the song sourcing should go away unless there is actual evidence it is about the subject.
Otr500 (
talk)
14:01, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
- Otr500, You are absolutely right. There's not a single source that indicates this is a community, and the closure here was preposterous. I've edited the article to reflect that. The mine is still just one of hundreds that has operated in the state and shows no particular notability. Reywas92 Talk 03:37, 11 December 2020 (UTC)