- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was redirect to Werewolf fiction. Underlying content can be merged through normal editorial channels. I considered a draftily close, but I found much of the reasoning to consist of EFFORT instead of a policy-based reason. Guerillero Parlez Moi 17:56, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
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- Lycanthropes in games ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
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We already have Werewolf fiction for this, which includes games. Not only redundant but a collection of fictional minutia without context that fails WP:INDISCRIMINATE heavily. See also WP:CARGO. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ ( ᴛ) 17:34, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Video games, Games, Mythology, Popular culture, and Lists. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ ( ᴛ) 17:34, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- Either keep, merge to
Werewolf fiction, or move back to draft. This was "accepted" as an AfC submission by
User:Nagol0929, who moved the draft to mainspace without there actually being an AfC submission, or request to do so. Nothing about this article inherently violates inclusion in draft space, however. With respect to a potential merge, the entire content on use of werewolves in games currently at
Werewolf fiction is one line: "In the online MMO game Fer.al, one of the playable avatars the player can unlock is a werewolf, which was previously a Season Pass exclusive". This does not serve the reader, as it certainly understates the presence and versatility of werewolf tropes in games.
BD2412
T
18:00, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- There is nothing to merge, really, though. The entire content of the video games part of the article is an indiscriminate list of games featuring werewolves. Even if you ignore the listicle part of this article and paraphrase the lead paragraph, it would offer more actual content (i.e. the idea that most werewolves in games are enemies) than merging anything in this article... ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ ( ᴛ) 18:05, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- Delete or Merge into
Werewolf fiction or Restore to draft space and just put it back where it came from. There's a complex series of merges, redirects, re-redirects and copying without clear attribution here. Note that the original source and "repurposing" for this draft resulted from
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lycanthrope (Dungeons & Dragons). Note, there WAS an AFC submission tag, so the statement in regard to Nagol0929 misses the mark a bit. However, it was submitted by someone who made no edits to the draft, and Nagol0929 seems to have spent less than 2 minutes reviewing it. That's not enough time to read this article, let alone check sourcing. The fact this was left in draft without an AFC submission suggests the page authors were not ready, even if they haven't immediately contested the apparently unilateral AfC acceptance. This topic has been AFD'd, redirected, draftified, undrafified, re-draftified over and over. The article heavily leans on primary sourcing and Valnet listicles. --
ferret (
talk)
18:25, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, the idea that this could be accepted and the time spent reviewing it shows that the user Nagol0929 does not understand the criteria, I would suggest a serious review of the fact that they are a member of AfC. Pinging @ Primefac:, who approved them. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ ( ᴛ) 18:39, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- My apologies to
User:Nagol0929 for misreading the history, but yes, this was not ready for mainspace and should not have been submitted or moved.
BD2412
T
18:51, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- I’m sorry I am relatively new to approving articles and this seemed like a good article to approve as it had a decent amount of content that seemed reasonable Nagol0929 ( talk) 02:32, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- Rereading it again I agree this should’ve stayed in draft space Nagol0929 ( talk) 02:34, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- My apologies to
User:Nagol0929 for misreading the history, but yes, this was not ready for mainspace and should not have been submitted or moved.
BD2412
T
18:51, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- Delete bulk of this is old D&D articles from early in WP's history which have been removed over time. Rest us just indiscriminate lists...werewolves and other were forms are just part if the common elements of most horror themed games, so any list will be indiscriminate. On the other hand, at werewolf fiction, listing games where players can play as the werewolf (eg Zelda twilight princess. And the wolf among us).would be short and reasonable. Masem ( t) 18:27, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- Keep and improve or merge to
Werewolf fiction#In games - While this may need trimming, it is notable topic, based on the articles by
Games Radar and
Paste (both considered reliable according to
Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Sources, just as the
Wired and TheGamer articles), as well as
The Encyclopedia of Vampires, Werewolves, and Other Monsters, p. 131-132 and
The Complete Idiot's Guide to Werewolves, chapter 13.
Daranios (
talk)
20:19, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- "Need trimming" is incorrect, it needs a full rewrite from scratch. That said, I can't find anything that would support a full article on the subject rather than just a subsection. What is there is very slim.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ)
22:26, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- @ Zxcvbnm: Sorry, I meant to say needs trimming and expansion. I disagree with the "nothing to keep/nothing to merge" opinion: We have some material here which is based on reliable secondary sources and should be kept. That also includes the list of video games, which is not indiscriminate, as it is based on secondary sources which tell us that out of all appearances of werewolves in video games, these are noteworthy. You've stated yourself that the Paste article's lead has not been fully used yet. Complementary commentary is provided by the lead sections of the Games Radar and The Gamer articles. Together with the books (which can also source/expand the Werewolf: The Apocalypse section) this can provide a paragraph of commentary, which can be balanced with a reasonable amount of information based on primary sources in accordance with WP:ALLPLOT. And voilá, we have a stand-alone article. Now I don't think that has to be a very long article, so I am also not fundamentally opposed to a merge, but I confidently expect it to be beyond stub-length. Daranios ( talk) 10:40, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- "Need trimming" is incorrect, it needs a full rewrite from scratch. That said, I can't find anything that would support a full article on the subject rather than just a subsection. What is there is very slim.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ)
22:26, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Science fiction and fantasy, and Fictional elements. Daranios ( talk) 20:24, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- Redirect to
Werewolf fiction#In games - Even the sources mentioned by Daranios above aren't really about the full scope of the topic this article is purported to be about (they're all very specifically just listicles of werewolves, in specific, and only in video games). There just is not enough sources on this topic in specific that would warrant it being split out of the main
Werewolf fiction article. I'm also not opposed to just Returning to Draft as suggested above, if the editors who have been working on said draft would prefer that.
Rorshacma (
talk)
00:18, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- That would certainly be my preference over redirection.
BD2412
T
00:36, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- @
Rorshacma: This verdict ignores the two books, which are neither listicles, nor limited to video games; rather, they also also include role-playing games, board games and the party game.
Daranios (
talk)
15:11, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Ah, so it does, I apologize for missing them (though, again, they are both specifically on werewolves, which would fit much more neatly into the
Werewolf fiction article than being used as a spinout, in my opinion). But, overall, I think this is kind of a moot debate at this point, as the editors who have been working on the draft have rather explicitly stated that they did not intend for the draft to be moved to article space at this time, and would like it returned there - I think that is clearly the best result for this particular article right now.
Rorshacma (
talk)
15:52, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- @ Rorshacma: So just for the sake of completeness, almost all sources, including our Werewolf article, treat the terms werewolf and lycanthrope as interchangeable. The main exception is D&D. So on the one hand I think it's important to explain that exception (just like Werewolf fiction explains that it also covers "other shapeshifting therianthropes"), on the other hand I think sources talking about werewolfs in games in my view cover our topic of lycanthropes in games, it's just a matter of nomenclature. Daranios ( talk) 10:12, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Ah, so it does, I apologize for missing them (though, again, they are both specifically on werewolves, which would fit much more neatly into the
Werewolf fiction article than being used as a spinout, in my opinion). But, overall, I think this is kind of a moot debate at this point, as the editors who have been working on the draft have rather explicitly stated that they did not intend for the draft to be moved to article space at this time, and would like it returned there - I think that is clearly the best result for this particular article right now.
Rorshacma (
talk)
15:52, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- @
Rorshacma: This verdict ignores the two books, which are neither listicles, nor limited to video games; rather, they also also include role-playing games, board games and the party game.
Daranios (
talk)
15:11, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- That would certainly be my preference over redirection.
BD2412
T
00:36, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- Move back to draft: This was clearly a work in progress that no one asked to be moved to article space, and it was moved there without explanation or any response that I've seen. BOZ ( talk) 00:53, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- Redirect to Werewolf fiction per Masem, with whom rationale I fully agree, except that I don't think we need a hard delete. Btw, I'll note that Lycanthrope redirects to Werewolf, and there is no 'werewolves in games' section or article. This is just ORish attempt to synthesize an overview of how werewolves and like appear in games. Fun but WP:NOTTVTROPES. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:55, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- Delete per Masem; oppose redraftifying. This appears to be an end-around to the delete decision at
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lycanthrope (Dungeons & Dragons). Tracing the convoluted moves and cuts/pastes finds the original history of this article at
Lycanthrope (Dungeons & Dragons), of which the current article is virtually an unmodified recreation (borderline speedy G4), if not for the barest gesture at a video games list at the end. If this is redraftified, I would send it to MFD as a stale draft---if not for getting "accepted" at AFC (without the creator's request), the draft would just about qualify for speedy G13. It had a grand total of 4 non-bot edits in 13 months as a draft. Draftspace is not indefinite free hosting for deleted content.
Axem Titanium (
talk)
04:46, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- I consider the proposition that there is "
the barest gesture at a video games list
" to be an affront. I put a lot of effort into compiling that fully-sourced list. There are potential additional points of interest in the text of several of the sources. Werewolves Within could be a section all its own, considering that the game was popular enough to be made into a movie. BD2412 T 21:01, 24 April 2023 (UTC)- While all entries are sourced, it is a plain list of examples, and the sources ( [1] [2] [3]) are not exactly high-quality ones seeing as they are all listicles. TompaDompa ( talk) 03:44, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- I consider the proposition that there is "
- @ TTN and Chetsford: pinging members of the de facto previous AFD who have not yet weighed in. Axem Titanium ( talk) 04:50, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Keep, redraftify, or redirect Basically, any outcome but deleting it entirely as argued by Axem Titanium. The way we deal with NN things (that is, notability is the only significant issue) is to draftify them, or redirect them, as alternatives to deletion. Sure, this is pretty "meh" right now and clearly needs more work, but that's not a reason to delete it in lieu of any ATD. Jclemens ( talk) 01:43, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Redraftify - BD2412 has contibuted a lot to this draft in the past year and is advocating for returning it to draft space, and I don't see any rationale to deny him that. Even if deleted/redirected there is nothing stopping the content itself continuing to simmer as a draft, so the least confusing outcome for everyone is a straight redraftify. Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 14:11, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Redraftify, clearly a work in progress by BD2412 with potentially demonstrated notability in the future with better sourcing. Oppose deletion as it would be less constructive than moving back to drafts. Merko ( talk) 10:21, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.