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The result was speedy delete. Acroterion (talk) 23:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Christie Fyfe's Italy Article

AfDs for this article:
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OR, POV and some kid's homewaork task Fiddle Faddle ( talk) 23:18, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was Speedy deleted WP:BALLS. Beeblebrox ( talk) 20:02, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Arham Aftab

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Entirely non-notable, and much of the article appears ficticious (e.g. he's only 14? He's won 13 awards?? Madman ( talk) 23:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was Speedy deleted under CDS G3. — Edokter • Talk • 01:48, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Land Before Time XIV

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This is a hoax. No google hits, not on imdb. All the actors that are supposivelly in this movie movie have no news that there will appear in this film. Coasttocoast ( talk) 22:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was keep. Per WP:SNOW. There's no way that consensus is going to change from keep. It has charted as of three days ago, a day after the nomination. Fences& Windows 18:27, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Speechless (Lady Gaga song)

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Forgetting WP:OTHERCRAP for a moment; surely almost every song on Thriller (album) has recieved the same coverage (it being probably the most critically acclaimed album ever) but still The Lady in My Life ( 1,180,000,000 hits) and Baby Be Mine ( 898,000 hits) are left article-less. The same can be said for MANY unreleased songs by The Beatles, The Rolling Stones and other acts who have whole books written on single albums. GaGaOohLaLa ( talk) 01:11, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Well, as you said, that's an WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST argument. But personally, I'd rather see those articles get made (with the appropriate reliable secondary sources) than this one get deleted. — Hunter Kahn ( c) 01:23, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per nom. All of the sources provided absolutely establish the notability of Lady Gaga and The Fame Monster, however notability of this individual song has not been established. SnottyWong talk 01:49, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
    • I'm not going to go too crazy defending this article, but out of curiousity, what elements of the general notability guideline do you feel are not satisfied? The five main criteria are 1) significant coverage, 2) reliable, 3) sources, 4) independent of the subject and 5) presumed. To me, it seems they are all satisfied... — Hunter Kahn ( c) 02:14, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. Another recent Lady Gaga AfD nom, Christmas Tree (Lady Gaga song), survived despite the most significant "coverage" being an About.com posting that pretty much consists solely of an image. I realize that the song charted, but charted songs are only "probably notable", not "definitely notable" enough to warrant an article, especially if there's virtually zero coverage. My point is not to violate WP:OTHERCRAP, but just to point out that by comparison, "Speechless" has a wealth of information about it, particularly citation 4, which is entirely about the song. Granted, the majority of the other references provide just passing mentions (not even 1 sentence in some instances; as many as 3 sentences in a few instances). My bottom line is, as WP:NSONGS states, "a separate article on a song is only appropriate when there is enough verifiable material to warrant a reasonably detailed article." Indeed, I would consider this article to be reasonably detailed, and so I'm in favor of keeping this. As for those songs on Thriller that don't have articles...if enough information exists, I'm all for their creation, as well.  Gongshow  Talk 03:19, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Wikipedia does not guess what will happen in the future. GaGaOohLaLa ( talk) 11:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
In that case its a fail again as the song has already charted on the Billboard Hot 100. --Legolas (talk2me) 12:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was Speedy delete per A7 on both articles. -- Atama 頭 23:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Bola Webinformation GmbH

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This article is about a nonnotable company which fails WP:ORG. The article is also likely a result of paid editing from this posting on elance. This type of deceptive editing goes against our conflict of interest guidelines as well as Wikipedia:PROMOTION. I'm also batch-nominating the related website, as the same problems exist with it.

Them From Space 22:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Speedy delete (and tagged as such) - neither article makes any assertions of notability and I can't find any coverage of them in reliable sources. Smartse ( talk) 23:10, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was speedy delete. hoax -- Mufka (u) (t) (c) 02:25, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply

PaperBack (software)

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I found zero sources for this. Joe Chill ( talk) 21:45, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was speedily deleted (G4) by Malik Shabazz. Non-admin closure. Deor ( talk) 20:32, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Paul H.J. Kim

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Notability. No indication of notability - he's a successful businessman and involved in his local church but that does not make him notable. JohnBlackburne ( talk) 21:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

  • Note. I just discovered while adding notes to User talk:Alanhsia that a bio for this person (or someone very similar with the same name) was created before, proposed for deletion and deleted - the previous discussion is here. Perhaps this could be moved to a speedy delete, with criteria G4? JohnBlackburne ( talk) 21:48, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Speedy Delete - I've added the appropriate speedy delete to the page, as it seems as clear cut as it could be, so can this AfD be closed? JohnBlackburne ( talk) 23:26, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Speedy Delete - I remember this article, deleted less than a month ago as non-notable. This looks identical. BTW an article about his business partner Ken Eldred was deleted at the same time, so be on the alert for a reposting of it as well. -- MelanieN ( talk) 01:13, 3 December 2009 (UTC)MelanieN reply
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The result was delete. Secret account 01:22, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Angelo Felice Coniglio

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Sounds like a biography, doesnt provide much information outside of personal interests.

many of the edits were made by the user himself |anon| -20091202212702

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The result was keep. -- Coffee // have a cup // ark // 10:55, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Ryan C. Gordon

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Subject does not appear to be notable. I did add a notability template to the article, but it was removed. Rockfang ( talk) 21:26, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

  • Keep I find this nomination frankly ridiculous. This article is linked to numerous times on other articles and the subject has a profound internet presence, see the external links on the article or put the name "Ryan C. Gordon", "Ryan Gordon", or "icculus" into Google. Also the fact that this article has existed for over three years adds a certain amount of established notability in its own right. Comrade Hamish Wilson ( talk) 00:52, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Agreed, ridiculous. Icculus has been interviewed by various technical, Linux, gaming, and even hardware websites and is mentioned in several books on Linux (if not by name, but by titles he has ported). He is a known figure head in Linux and Mac gaming, which can be found by a simple search at any website such as LinuxGames or Phoronix. He has worked for Loki Software (the founder of commercial Linux gaming, mentioned in hundreds of articles such as those in Linux Journal, and he was important in Loki too!), Google (Linux port of Google Earth), Epic Games ( Unreal Tournament series), the U.S. Army (for America's Army), and even did work for NASA according to one interview which is linked to in the article. Gordon doesn't find work like most programming contractors, work finds him. My family has been in the consulting trade, who know that when companies go knocking on your door, rather than you trying to find work yourself means something. His sheer number of notable clients, which is documented here and elsewhere on Wikipedia establish notability in its own right. Comrade Graham ( talk) 01:25, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Based on that article he does not meet WP:GNG. The only links are to his on site and interviews on web sites that few people have heard of. There are people in the games industry with far higher profile, who have been interviewed by mainstream media, quoted regularly and often, and played a part in shaping the industry, but still aren't notable enough for their own article — Matt Booty former CEO of Midway is one. A Google search turns up nothing else of note, only those things already in the article. JohnBlackburne ( talk) 22:45, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
    First off, statements such as "web sites that few people have heard of" are hear-say and irrelevant. Just because not everyone has heard of a certain news-source does not mean it is not relevant. Phoronix, for example, is very important in the Linux world but pretty much unknown everywhere else. Just because Windows users have never heard of it does not mean a sizable amount of Linux users do not eagerly read its posts. Secondly, this article is needed as part of Wikipedia's infrastructure. If you put the likes of "Matt Booty" into an article search you get two relevant articles that mention him. Do a search for Ryan "icculus" Gordon however and it is quite a different story. There are many articles that mention him and link to this article. And thirdly, he is not just a member of the gaming industry but the Linux and Mac industry as well. In fact, on Linux he could easily be called a leader in his field. Because of this niche market fulfillment it elevates his importance over just one name in the crowd Windows game programmers. Also Matt Booty might not be notable but Midway is and in many ways Gordon acts more like a company than a person in terms of output. Hence the amount of articles that would link to Midway and not Booty would always in the equivalent case link to this article. Please keep this in mind. Comrade Hamish Wilson ( talk) 01:40, 4 December 2009 (UTC) reply
    If he is a "leader in his field" then that should be in the article, if it can be referenced. But references in other Wikipedia articles is largely irrelevant as it's not a reliable source. See WP:CIRCULAR. The point about the quality of sources is from WP:GNG. And A web search on its own shows nothing, it's the quality of the references it finds, which should then be used in the article. See e.g. WP:BIO#Invalid criteria. My apologies if the links seem Wikilawyerly but they make the points far better than I could. JohnBlackburne ( talk) 08:38, 4 December 2009 (UTC) reply
    I am sorry, but I do not see your point with linking to the General notability guideline with regards to the sources on this article. All of them seem to adhere to it. They are independent of the subject (except for the resume), none contain any libellous or contentious statements, they are from news sources which can be assumed to be reliable (they are used as sources on other articles, which seems to add community belief in their credibility), and offer enough coverage to allow a presumption of notability. Unless you post reasons why you think they do not follow the guidelines, you are threatening to be acting in a similar fashion as example six of Gaming the system. As I am sure that is not your intention, perhaps you can post your reasons for doubting the sources so we can have a reasonable discussion about it. Also, I never insinuated that other articles can be used as sources. My point was if we remove Ryan C. Gordon it would immediately become noticeable on the Wanted Pages listing. This article is part of the wiki infrastructure, as any valid article that has been around for a number of years should be, and removing it would damage that. This might be applicable to the Ignore all rules guidelines, as it would damage Wikipedia's coverage in a similar fashion to firing a cannon ball at a load-bearing wall currently supporting a free-standing building. Granted this should never be used as a main argument, and I do not intend to use it as such, but it should still be mentioned. Comrade Hamish Wilson ( talk) 23:27, 4 December 2009 (UTC) reply
    Notability requires good secondary sources. The sources here are all interviews, i.e. primary sources, and they are also from relatively obscure sources - not ones that many people would recognise, even in gaming. And as you seem to agree Wikipedia itself is not a reliable source. JohnBlackburne ( talk) 00:30, 5 December 2009 (UTC) reply
    Okay, thank you for being clear about the problem now. When you posted this message there were about two secondary sources on the article, and I did a web crawl last night and found and added some more. Check the citations on the article. I still say statements such as that the sources are "not ones that many people would recognize" are hear-say and irrelevant. However, in the sources defense, I will say this. Other Wikipedia articles can not be used to determine notability, but that can be indicative that people are interested in the subject enough to make them. Almost all of the sources have Wikipedia articles about them. See Phoronix, LinuxGames, Inside Mac Games, and ars technica. I have also seen Blue's News in print media, though I am shocked it does not have an article. Comrade Hamish Wilson ( talk) 22:08, 5 December 2009 (UTC) reply

It looks better now though it still looks unencyclopaedic - too little text. I found a couple of links myself when searching yesterday, though I don't know if they are of use: [1] and [2]. Anyway, I'll redact my delete vote as my main concern, the lack of references, has been addressed. JohnBlackburne ( talk) 22:46, 5 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Okay, I have written a proper biography section now, hope this helps solve some of your complaints about the article. It needs more information about his work between 2004 - 2007, and it barely mentions his Mac ports at all (mostly because I do not know much about them or where to find sources for them), but is is more than a start. Comrade Hamish Wilson ( talk) 07:52, 7 December 2009 (UTC) reply
I have expanded it now to cover the year gap, and found a few new sources. Comrade Hamish Wilson ( talk) 07:20, 8 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was keep. Cirt ( talk) 11:01, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

William F. Vallicella

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This bio of a former academic turned blogger does not show notability under WP:PROF, WP:WEB or any other notability standard. Prod was objected to based on hits from Google Books and Google Scholar, but having published articles and books is standard for an academic and not a sign of notability. The sources for the article give good indication of the lack of reliable sources coverage: a two-sentence contributor description from a journal, his own blog, a summary of his (apparently only) book from a defunct online book club, and a Google Scholar search page. RL0919 ( talk) 20:55, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

  • Comment. Here is a useful search link. When you find articles with "The X argument: a reply to Y" it means his ideas are sufficiently notable to merit a full-length refutation, but this is only slightly above average for a decent philosopher. I would like this to be kept, but I can't make a case for it based on sources I've found. 77.4.59.225 ( talk) 21:57, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Weak Keep there are 79k GHits for "William F. Vallicella" and 63K for "William Vallicella". This is even more than I have - and I have co-authored a notable book :-). NBeale ( talk) 23:10, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Solid Keep. I was the deprodding editor, and as nom points out I pointed nom to the google results. That not having satisfied nom, I've added many (though not all--I tired) of the relevant citations to the article. IMHO this meets wp:prof in that his research has made significant impact in his scholarly discipline, as demonstrated by independent reliable sources. It also meets wp:author in that he is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by his peers, is known for originating significant new concepts, and has been the subject of multiple independent periodical articles and reviews.-- Epeefleche ( talk) 01:12, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. (by Epeefleche, approximately the same time as the above comment). — David Eppstein ( talk) 06:28, 4 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Keep - The article is not well written at this point (sorry, Epeefleche, I see your comment about adding refs, but I know this article will be improved considerably eventually as time passes as is the normal course in wiki articles). I think that skews perceptions somewhat. Remember when you handed in typewritten work instead of handwritten work to get a 10% grade boost? Well I think the same thing applies here. I could come back and reconsider after the page is cleaned up. Until then, it's a keeper. -- LegitimateAndEvenCompelling ( talk) 01:38, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Fair point. This is definitely a stub, as the text is severely limited. Once could build it up rather easily by going through the sources, and using them to develop the text. But as the issue at the moment is only notability, I limited myself to trying to reflect that. But your criticism is appropriately placed.-- Epeefleche ( talk) 01:46, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Weak Keep This is not easy to judge, as there is no reliable citation index for his subject. The large number of journal articles , about half in major journals, would argue for keeping, as does his having been selected to write an article in Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, an publication with stringent requirements. true, I'd be a lot more satisfied if he held an academic position or had published some actual books. But according to Cambridge University Press [3] he did in fact hold a tenured position, apparently at Case Western Reserve University or possibly Dayton University. DGG ( talk ) 04:13, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Thanks for that information/cite, which I've now incorporated into the article.-- Epeefleche ( talk) 04:32, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Comment. Philosophy is a field where citation numbers will nearly always be low for contemporary practitioners, and are pretty useless as an indicator of notability. Academics who do philosophy (as opposed to studying its history) like to present their work as being based on first priciples rather than on the work of others, so rarely cite their peers. Phil Bridger ( talk) 11:43, 5 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Thanks for this interesting info. How do we judge then? Xxanthippe ( talk) 02:11, 6 December 2009 (UTC). reply
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The result was delete. Secret account 01:24, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Peppermint Parlour

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I can't really find any reliable sourcing on this band at all. The only thing I've been able to find on them was a trivial name drop in a BBC article [4], and searches don't turn up a thing remotely reliable other than that: [5], [6] (always telling when the Wikipedia article is the top result), [7]. The article also has a significantly promotional tone ("musical gems", "extremely talented", saying other bands were "less talented" with no sourcing to back that, etc.) With sources to work from, that might be fixable, but the sources aren't there. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:48, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Secret account 01:24, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Aber Valley YMCA Football Club

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I think this club plays at too low a level to qualify for an article Polarpanda ( talk) 20:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Secret account 01:25, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Agilence

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Article fails WP:NOTABILITY. Article was created by an WP:SPA account with no other edits other than related to Agilence. References given are selflinking press releases (some requiring login) that do not confer notability. Self-promotion and product placement are not the routes to having an encyclopaedia article. Hu12 ( talk) 19:59, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

  • Delete I can only find one reliable secondary source for this company, [8], among a sea of press releases. This article is completely based on primary sources from the company. This is definitely company PR for a non-notable company. Angryapathy ( talk) 21:30, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Secret account 01:25, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Boraq Tower

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Proposed building in Dubai which will never get built. No reliable sources, even for its cancellation. Deprodded by a person in denial. Glittering Pillars ( talk) 19:37, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Tone 16:22, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Mashin' Duck Records

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Non-notable record label. The article also hardly even deals with the label itself, in fact it most of it seems devoted to elaborate on early Eminem demo tapes, such as "Fuckin' Backstabber" and "Biterphopia", while adding plenty of ridiculous and unattributed claims in the mix as well. Please note that similar discussions have already been conducted on this matter at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Soul Intent and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fuckin’ Backstabber/Soul Intent. Do U(knome)? yes... or no 19:05, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Secret account 01:26, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Izzy O'Kay

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Non notable artist. PROD with commnet "Unsourced BLP of a DJ with no album, only internet media" removed by IP user with no history but might be linked to the author Malcolma ( talk) 18:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was redirect to Beltway sniper attacks. Tone 16:26, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Bull's Eye Shooter Supply

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Delete. EGAD. Talk about your textbook WP:COATRACK article. Synopsis: This is where the weapons used in the Beltway sniper attacks were shoplifted from. This doesn't even warrant a redirect in my opinion. JBsupreme ( talk) 18:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

  • Redirect to retain attribution. The fact the shop was sued for negligence needs to be covered in the article about the attacks, but this is clearly a business known for one (defaming) thing. Since the shop wasn't actively involved, I totally agree it is not suitable for a separate topic. - Mgm| (talk) 13:51, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Merge info and Redirect - doesn't appear to merit its own article, as it is pretty WP:COATRACKish, but some of the information here definitely seems salvageable (and important). Relevant information should be included in the article about the attacks, and this should redirect. Cocytus [»talk«] 03:26, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Redirect Merge info specifically about Bull's eye. Not notable as separate article Polargeo ( talk) 15:37, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Secret account 01:27, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

The lost generation (t.l.g)

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Unsure if this meets the general notability guideline. Questionable references. Belinrahs| talktome⁄ ididit 18:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Secret account 01:28, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

1 arm and 1 leg squat

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Doesn't really fit any CSD criteria. Would require a fundamental rewrite to become encyclopedic. Belinrahs| talktome⁄ ididit 18:01, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Secret account 01:28, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Jaimee Grubbs

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The woman is known for only one thing: her affair with Tiger woods. All details about the affair belong in the Tiger Woods article. Victor Victoria ( talk) 17:43, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

1) Being known for only one thing is not reason enough to warrant deletion (c.f. Monica Lewinsky, Donna Rice); 2) Tiger Woods' page is protected from edits, so this is currently the only way to get the news into Wikipedia, especially considering it is breaking news so we can't wait for an admin to insert it; 3) Specifically because it is breaking news, this should be left in place to see what develops; 4) She is best known for the affair but was also on a VH1 reality TV show. I think we should let this article stand a while and see how it develops before considering deletion. Noraft ( talk) 17:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Editors have a week to improve this article to prove that it can stand on its own.
  • Rice and Lewinsky have made many media appearances to warrent their own articles. So far, Grubbs has not made a single media appearances.
  • Appearance on a reality TV show is not notable enough to have a biographical article
  • Wikipedia is not a newspaper. Breaking News is not a reason for a biographical article.
Victor Victoria ( talk) 18:04, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
You are arguing that this article does not meet the criteria for inclusion under WP:BIO, however, I quote from that article: "A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject." All these criteria are met.
  • Editors have a week to improve this article to prove that it can stand on its own.
The presumption is not that it will be deleted now that it has been nominated. I think it stands on its own now, personally, and unless we can get consensus that this is not the case, it stays.
  • Rice and Lewinsky have made many media appearances to warrent their own articles. So far, Grubbs has not made a single media appearances.
Making "media appearances" does not increase one's notability. However, having press coverage does, whether one makes "media appearances" or not. Lewinski and Rice both became notable before either made their first media appearance. Further, what do you consider "a media appearance"? Grubbs obviously talked with reporters and furnished them with evidence. Is that not a media appearance? Does she need to be on TV or hold a press conference for one to consider that a "media appearance"?
  • Appearance on a reality TV show is not notable enough to have a biographical article
Right. But I submit that appearing on a reality TV show AND having an affair with Tiger Woods is.
  • Wikipedia is not a newspaper. Breaking News is not a reason for a biographical article.
While breaking news is not a reason for an article in and of itself, breaking news related to a notable person should be included in an article about said person, so really this all boils down to notability. Noraft ( talk) 18:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Responding to your claims. Grubbs has not been the subject of any third party sources, the affair is the subject (it's like taking a review of a book and saying that it's about the author). It's your job to prove she is notable, which so far you haven't IMO (and so far the consensus is that she is not notable). Both Lewinsky and Rice (ESPECIALLY Lewinksy) got tons of media coverage on them and their past, so far almost all of the "coverage" she has gotten has been in storys of Woods having an affair (with her being a second thought in them). Having an affair with someone notable has no affect on notability, it doesn't help her case (and having a small appearance on a non-notable reality show doesn't help her that much). As for your last point, that doesn't mean she deserves an article; hell, we don't know if this affair will even mean anything a year from now (there have been many cases of famous people having affairs, the majority of them ended up being forgotten after a few months and that could be the case here based on the fact that no sponsors have dropped him and Woods has not been getting much negative coverage). TJ Spyke 02:37, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Lewinsky and Rice didn't get their tons of coverage the day after the story broke. If having an affair with someone had no effect on notability, then Lewinsky would never have been notable. In fact, not only does she have an article, the scandal itself has its own article. Did the photo of Donna Rice sitting on Gary Hart's lap mean anything a year from when it happened, or now? No, but she has a page all the same. Lastly, consensus is not a majority vote (Wikipedia:What_is_consensus%3F#Not_a_majority_vote), so I'd say there is not consensus to delete, with a number of people feeling the article should stay. Noraft ( talk) 04:26, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
While Woods has not yet lost any sponsors, his squeaky clean reputation has taken a serious hit because of Jaimee Grubbs. She's well into her sixteenth minute of fame, and there's no reason to believe that she'll be going away anytime soon. // Internet Esquire ( talk) 03:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
The story is about 6 hours old, what makes you think it won't go away? It's only been a minor story so far, I doubt it will be getting much attention after a few weeks. TJ Spyke 03:42, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
I disagree with your timeline. By my reckoning, this story is several days old, beginning with the Friday after Thanksgiving. Jaimee Grubbs may have just made her entrance onto the stage, but her allegations are the first credible allegations that have been acknowledged as credible by the mainstream media, so what makes you think the story is going away? People love to hear trash about celebrities, and Tiger's refusal to engage the media in any sort of meaningful way (although commendable) is clearly backfiring. In the weeks and months to come, we will see all sorts of trashy media coverage with timelines, dates, and blow-by-blow descriptions of alleged sexual encounters, and Jaimee Grubbs is going to be in the center ring of this media circus. // Internet Esquire ( talk) 03:55, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
This woman has nothing to do with the crash. The story involving this woman is less than a day old. Tiger refused to talk about the car crash, but he confessed to this affair only a few hours after she made the allegations (so how you get "refusal to talk to the media" out of a story that is not only about 12 hours old is confusing). You are assuming this will be talked about in the future. Think about all the hundreds and hundreds of athletes who have been confirmed to have affairs. Now think about how many of those people who they had affairs with are notable or got any real coverage other than for a few days max, the list is pretty small. This may or may not end up being on the small list of affairs that were notable, but as of right now she is not notable. TJ Spyke 04:08, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Yes, this event is noteworthy. However, it is (currently being argued) that this event is the only noteworthy news related to her. Under WP:BLP1E, therefore, she should not have her own bio article. It is sufficient that the event is mentioned in Tiger Woods' article. Nakomaru ( talk) 00:52, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Doesn't the length of this entire discussion prove that she is now a notable person? Yes, WP is an encyclopedia and not a tabloid. And this person has become famous for some very unsavory reasons. But famous nonetheless. KINGBOB

No it doesn't. Anytime something like this happens you have people thinking they deserve an article. Whenever a scandal affects someone famous, you have people creating articles about non-notable people involved in the situation and some people who think it should be kept in an AFD. TJ Spyke 03:42, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply

For those arguing delete as per WP:BLP1E, I quote: "If the event is significant and the individual's role within it is substantial, a separate biography may be appropriate. Individuals notable for well-documented events, such as John Hinckley, Jr., fit into this category. The significance of an event or individual should be indicated by how persistent the coverage is in reliable sources." This event was covered by CNN on December 3, among many other reliable sources. I think the event, given her release of Tiger's voicemail, plus the text messages, plus Tiger's apology for "transgressions," all covered by major media, constitutes "well documented" as per WP:BLP1E. Noraft ( talk) 06:39, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply

If you think having an alleged affair with a sports star is on the same level of importance as attempting to assassinate the President of the United States... well, all I can say is, 'no, it's not'. Robofish ( talk) 12:31, 4 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Comment: A bunch of people are citing WP:BLP1E. Here's the thing: BLP1E says that "it is usually better to merge the information and redirect the person's name to the event article." But there's no event article for the scandal. This means we'd wind up merging information about Grubbs into the Tiger Woods article, which seems particularly inappropriate given that Tiger hasn't acknowledged the affair to have taken place. So my keep vote stands, but if we are going to delete the article based on BLP1E, it seems to me that implies we need to create an article about the scandal. Because there's certainly more than enough reliable sources to cover the Grubbs allegations somewhere, and I don't think the Tiger Woods article is the place to do it. Binarybits ( talk) 14:57, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply
For me, Binarybits's post begs the question, why should deletion imply that there needs to be an article on the scandal? If this gets the type of coverage in reliable sources that WP:BLP demands, then add it the Woods article, where it can be placed in proper context by the rest of the coverage of Woods career. IMO, spinning out this type of article too early tends to lead to a grab-bag of gossipy quotes and undisciplined writing all thrown together. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 17:29, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Binarybits is interpreting BLP1E more narrowly than the policy intends. This is a more complex case than the ones the short paragraph at BLP1E cites. In this case, the subject isn't notable except in relation to an event, but the event itself isn't notable except in relation to a person. The closest analogue mentioned in the various policies on the issue is probably George Holliday (witness), in which there is a redirect to another biography but no biographical information on Holliday in the main article. That might be appropriate in this case, but I still think a redlink would be more appropriate given that it's not the affairs themselves that are notable but the way in which they came to be known and the response to them (another way to look at it--Grubbs, despite more media coverage of her personal life, has actually had far less of an impact on the relevant event than Holliday did). Chick Bowen 19:01, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply
The story is still moving pretty quickly, so we'll have a better idea of what to do soon. - Peregrine Fisher ( talk) ( contribs) 19:10, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Note that there was serious concerns in the article, particualy WP:NOR in which the keep side didn't explain/fix. Secret account 01:30, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

List of landmarks in Las Vegas

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A brand-new advertisement for Las Vegas tourism, added to Wikipedia yesterday. They have brochures for this already at your nearest travel agency. ~ YellowFives 17:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Created this page after seeing it on Wikipedia's list of wanted articles. With over 1700 pages linking to it, I thought it'd be a worthy gap to fill. I was surprised to see this immediately get moved to "Landmarks," as the list is clearly of "Attractions." As per the value, yes, I see it being a valuable resource to someone visiting Las Vegas. Having never been myself, I feel like I have a much better understanding of the area and seeing it all on one page would save time hunting around individual articles, provided they exist! Pintong ( talk) 19:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

My classmate wrote most of the copy, which he admits comes across as sales-pitchy at points. Maybe if this was cleaned up it would seem less like an advert? Pintong ( talk) 19:37, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Well, it is Vegas afterall. It is difficult to write anything non touristy or non-trashy sounding for Vegas baby. Actually I moved it from "list of attractions" for the very reason of trying to avoid it looks like a brochure advert. Weak keep - the article is not really essential given that we already have templates with the main attractions and categories but it is clearly in demand. If it could develop into a more comprehensive article and to try to address the brochure vibe we get from it its OK I think. We have lists of notable buildings and that for a number of cities. Don't like the open 24 column though (most say NO!!). At face value though it seems better suited to WikiTravel than wikipedia... Dr. Blofeld White cat 19:55, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

  • Comment There may be 1700 pages linking here, but most are talk pages and appear because the page is part of WikiProject Las Vegas's template. However, if the objection to the article lay in the neutrality of the POV, I would say Weak keep and tag. Vulture19 ( talk) 21:30, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per WP:NOTRAVEL. I agree with Blofeld that this belongs better at WikiTravel. Wikipedia is not a tour guide. I might be OK with keeping it if it only included items that have articles on WP already. Angryapathy ( talk) 21:47, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Strong keep and WP:CLEANUP - without a violation of WP:WAX, some similar articles ( List of Chicago Landmarks is at FL level) appear to function very well. The article just needs some TLC. Dale 22:46, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Delete for now. Dale's comment above is comparing apples and oranges. The List of Chicago Landmarks is a list of structures which have been officially designated as "landmarks" by the City of Chicago's Commission on Chicago Landmarks. The Las Vegas list is a completely subjective list of structures that the creator has deemed to be "landmarks." Much of the content also reads like an advertisement for specific restaurants and other business establishments. In its current form, the article is purely subjective original research, and I have to vote "delete." However, if there were a reliable, verifiable source for what is being included as a landmark (rather than the editor's subjective opinion), I might be persuaded to "keep." Cbl62 ( talk) 02:04, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Further comment. Aside from the blatant subjectivity and original research problems, most of the attractions listed here are not "landmarks" in any sense of the word. A landmark is "a structure (as a building) of unusual historical and usually aesthetic interest; especially one that is officially designated and set aside for preservation." This list includes things like shows (e.g., the "Show in the Sky" - a "free show with ladies dancing on floats") and miscellaneous things to do (e.g., the Wyrick Magic Academy). These are not "landmarks"; they are simply "things to do." Also, how can we justify including one restaurant (The Tuscany Kitchen) as a landmark but not the dozens of other fine restaurants in Vegas. Frankly, this is a real mess of promotion and subjective opinion. This is more like a guide to attractions that may be fine for WikiTravel, but it is NOT encyclopedic in its present form. Cbl62 ( talk) 04:39, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Also, there is already a list of true Las Vegas historic landmarks (as opposed to "attractions") at National Register of Historic Places listings in Nevada#Clark County. Cbl62 ( talk) 04:51, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
I can see how Wikipedia:NOTRAVEL#NOTTRAVEL may apply. In any case, I've removed the NN stuff. Bearian ( talk) 03:57, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Comment i dont think either "attractions" or "landmarks" is appropriate. a better choice may be "list of las vegas tourist oriented businesses" or "list of commercial attractions in las vegas". i think its actually an obvious list to have on WP, though of course it requires vigilance to not include marginal/nonnotable attractions. a lead which notes the obvious commercial nature of nearly every destination in the town would help. we cant exactly NOT list these attractions just because they are such blatantly self promoting entities. they are notable, after all. (and i HATE vegas). Mercurywoodrose ( talk) 06:03, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Don't go overboard, Mercurywoodrose. If we were to use your titles, not only would it be near impossible to find, it would also break a basic naming rule. Keep it short and simple. - Mgm| (talk) 11:22, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
good point. I would support any agreed upon simpler title if the lead specified the lists limits. Mercurywoodrose ( talk) 17:18, 5 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Keep but rework. Since most of these already have valid articles themselves, there's no particular reason not to organize them in a list. If the 24 hour, column is removed and the last one rewritten, the promotional tone will also be gone. - Mgm| (talk) 11:22, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per Cbl62's comment above. If it could be edited to the standards of the CHicago article, I'd change it to a keep, but as is, it's just an ad. Sabiona ( talk) 15:44, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply

That is why I am leaning towards keep because the Vegas list could be developed like Chicago and actually contain encyclopedia landmarks rather than just touristy attractions. Either way, the way it is currently done will have to change if this is to be kept. Dr. Blofeld White cat 15:59, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Secret account 01:31, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Balacade

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Declined A7 nominee. The article makes a claim to notability through chart rankings, but a Google search looking for substantial (vs. trivial) coverage to establish notability came up dry. SchuminWeb ( Talk) 10:48, 24 November 2009 (UTC) reply

  • reply "unimpressed" or not, WP:BAND lists "Has had a charted single or album on any national music chart." as sufficient cause for notability. Your statement is incorrect and minimizes the articles references: the album not only charted on the local radio station, it placed within the top 200 nationally, please see: http://www.earshot-online.com/charts/2008/December/top200.cfm . If this ranking is not considered valuable, perhaps the above quoted item on WP:BAND needs to be altered. 17:12, 24 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alibosworth ( talk • contribs)
  • thank you for the clarification. Again, perhaps the criteria should be clarified. The fact that it specifically states "any national music chart" lead me to interpret it as being inclusive of college/campus radio stations. !earshot is quite established within canada, and while it might not be commercial, it is definitely official. As quote here "[...]the official monthly chart publication of the National Campus and Community Radio Association." Alibosworth ( talk) 18:15, 24 November 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Really? "clear enough"? because wp itself describes the chart in question as "the official monthly chart publication of the National Campus and Community Radio Association." I fail to see how this chart would not qualify as "any national music chart" as per the WP:BAND notability requirement. If there is an unstated rule that the "national chart" has to be a commercial chart, what is the harm in clarifying the requirement? Alibosworth ( talk) 02:40, 26 November 2009 (UTC) reply
Perhaps they could rename the chart so it's not confused as an actual national chart? Ho hum. Rehevkor ✉ 20:51, 26
  • Earshot is a non commercial NATIONAL chart. It collects playlists from every campus and community radio station in Canada. Billboard does the same thing with commercial stations. I believe the band has met this WP:BAND notability requirement.
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below thttp://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Balacade&action=edit&section=1his notice. Thanks, Tone 17:26, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Relisting comment: I've already closed this as delete but since the debate has developed elsewhere, it is reasonable to leave this open for a couple of days more in order to get a clearer picture. -- Tone 17:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Comment. The "national chart" discussion is what brought me here, see WP:Village pump (policy)#Clarify "National Chart" on WP:BAND. IMO National Campus and Community Radio Association meets the letter and spirit of criterion 2. It is an 80 member association, and looking at the map of its member stations I have trouble not classifying as 'national'. The fact that the stations are non-commercial should have no bearing on the validity of the chart. That being said, my !vote is delete, meeting any one of the criteria in WP:BAND does not supersede WP:GNG, as pointed out at the other discussion, the opening sentence of WP:BAND contains the word 'may'. This is a case when that has to be considered as there are no independent, third-party, reliable sources documenting this band and most of their releases (including the most recent) are self-released. Sorry for my grandstanding. J04n( talk page) 03:19, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Must also pass the general notability criteria with sufficient third-party sourcing. Not a fully national chart. Reywas92 Talk 01:58, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Secret account 01:32, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Financial Censorship

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I'm unable to find usable sources for this, as it appears the term is only loosely used within a niche group of economic thinking and not found in general usage amongst a wider audience. I deprodded it as it might be notable, but not widely used. Unless someone greater than myself can find reliable sources for this, I believe deletion is the next course of action. Belinrahs| talktome⁄ ididit 16:55, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

  • Delete First of all, it's basically just a definition of the term; Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Secondly, a Google search for the term finds it used on blogs and such, but not in the mainstream press. -- MelanieN ( talk) 17:01, 2 December 2009 (UTC)MelanieN reply
  • Delete, the creator of the article acknowledges on the talk page that this is a neologism: "I find this phenomenon lacks a succinct name, and I'm doing my best to craft a term that, while novel as a whole, is made up of familiar parts...." Ground Zero | t 17:57, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
So in other words, this is WP:Original research ?? -- MelanieN ( talk) 00:54, 3 December 2009 (UTC)MelanieN reply
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The result was delete. Secret account 01:33, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Luis Durani

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fails WP:BIO. I get it, he's an excellent student and employee, and he self-published a book! Wow! An incredible set of achievements </sarcasm>. No third-party sources showing notability equals no notability. Ironholds ( talk) 16:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

  • Weak delete - Article written in puffery style. Not much in the way of actual achievement listed. No sources, although the presence of numbers like [8] in the text indicate it was cut-and-pasted from some other document which did have sources. He says his book will be available on Amazon the first week of December, but this is the first week of December and it isn't there. -- MelanieN ( talk) 17:07, 2 December 2009 (UTC)MelanieN reply
  • Delete With some actual, independent sources this might be a decent article. There aren't any right now, but may be at some point in the future. -- JohnnyB256 ( talk) 17:44, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Just a case of non-notable spam to drum up attention for a book. Reads more like a resume and poorly-written PR release. Angryapathy ( talk) 22:10, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. I can't link to the Lulu.com page, but if you were to look there, you'd notice it hasn't got a sales rank, meaning it barely has any sales if it sold at all. The numbers Melanie mentions makes me suspect some form of copyvio or an attempt at falsifying references. Neither exudes much trust in the content. - Mgm| (talk) 11:13, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Secret account 01:33, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

List of countries by number of heliports

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Nomination based on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of countries by number of airports as this list has the same issues: A single source list based on a source whose accuracy has been called into question (it was noted in that debate that the CIA's count of airports in a country is based on airports visible from the air, and may count closed/abandoned airports while missing airports that are not visible). Hawaiian717 ( talk) 16:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Pardon my ignorance, but wouldn't a airport or heliport that isn't visible from the air pose a risk to anything trying to land there? You need to see where you are to make a safe landing. - Mgm| (talk) 11:08, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Cloud cover on the images taken? Shadows making runways indistinguishable from roads? Small airports with dirt runways with cones unviewable from the air? A major international airport won't go unnoticed, but smaller airports may very well be 'hidden'. \ Backslash Forwardslash / ( talk) 11:11, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
delete: This list does not yield any information (there is no sense behind it), it is constantly outdated and tends to contain a never-ending bunch of data. Wikipedia is not a database, as The World Factbook might be. The list cannot be verified, as the term "heliport" is not defined. For example, if one takes all places a helicopter could land... see: it will be a never-ending list. Per aspera ad Astra ( talk) 21:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Secret account 01:34, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Ash Video Mixer

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Contested WP:PROD. This piece of software does not appear to have received substantial coverage in reliable third-party sources, and therefore does not meet notability guidelines. I have found a single news piece referencing it at http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-75089310/infectious-release-first-album.html (from which the article draws a long quote), but alone this does not amount to significant coverage. Gonzonoir ( talk) 16:13, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Secret account 01:35, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Zanimana: The Blue-eyed Cat

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no assertion of notability - a self-published set of books with six google hits, one of which is us. Ironholds ( talk) 16:11, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

  • Delete Non-notable, self-published book series. Angryapathy ( talk) 22:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: Fails WP:BK. Joe Chill ( talk) 23:02, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Delete (retyping after spamfilter ate my comment) Self-published books aren't necessarily non-notable, but this one shows all the earmarks. It hasn't got a web presence, no reviews and the lulu sales page lists no sales rank, proving a complete absense of sales since the book's release in October. P.S. Search Lulu if you want to see for yourself, I can't link it because of the spamfilter. I wish that filter could be limited to the main namespace. It makes discussing issues like this unnecessarilly complicated. - Mgm| (talk) 11:00, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was keep. Cirt ( talk) 11:00, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Ajay Mahajan

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Unreferenced BLP article that does not appear to pass WP:BIO concerns... Adolphus79 ( talk) 15:44, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Secret account 01:36, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Miran Pavic

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Editors of student media are not necessarily notable. Nothing else is asserted by article. Mblumber ( talk) 14:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. concerns about policy wasn't met in this AFD Secret account 01:37, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Racial disappearance

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This article is hopelessly, irredeemably biased. The term 'racial disappearance' is only used by racists; it's impossible to write a neutral article on the subject. Currently, this article has virtually no reliable sources, and all the sources are either to racists themselves, or trivial mentions. If significant coverage of the topic in reliable sources cannot be found, it should be deleted. A previous AfD on this article ended in 'no consensus', and it's only got worse since then. Robofish ( talk) 14:06, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

  • I wonder if it is the most used name about the concept, or if indeed there is a general accepted name for the concept. But that the concept exists and is notable is quite sure to me. I'll look into it. -- Cyclopia talk 15:40, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Secret account 01:38, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

George Joseph (Geoshrad)

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the reference for "award winning" is the guy's own website Polarpanda ( talk) 14:03, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

  • Delete, can see nothing notable. Even if "award winning" is true it surely should matter what type of award that is, and who else has noticed it. Also COI. Please, Polarpanda, use a tool to populate AfD. This way the AfD day log stays intact ;) -- Pgallert ( talk) 14:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Is it just me, or doesn't the link actually show he's award-winning. I wasn't able to find the evidence, even on his own site. - Mgm| (talk) 10:50, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Secret account 01:38, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Michael John Lassen

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Non-notable amateur rugby league player, created by an editor of the same name who's only contributions have been on this article. PROD was removed by the article creator without explanation. No references or evidence of notability, all clubs mentioned are lower level, non-professional teams. The-Pope ( talk) 13:46, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete Enigma msg 06:22, 7 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Kerry Louise

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No significant coverage and doesn't pass WP:PORNBIO. Epbr123 ( talk) 13:45, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Secret account 01:17, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

The land of sapphire

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WP:CRYSTAL: book doesn't exist yet. WP:N: no evidence of notability. —Largo Plazo ( talk) 13:30, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was keep. Cirt ( talk) 10:58, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Adam Dread

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Article has been proposed for deletion 3 times in the past. The last two proposed deletions were procedurally removed due to the initial objection.

Ignoring the overall style and tone of the article, which reads something like a trophy shelf, I'm not convinced that the subject of the article is notable. Google results are slim and (apart from the usual facebook and linkedin results) are almost entirely focused on the Nashville/Tennessee area.

Additionally, I haven't spent time checking out all of the claimed facts, but as a start, this "published book author" has a volume with this level of popularity on Amazon: [9], and almost non-existent ghits besides. Maedin\ talk 13:24, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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e

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The result was delete. Secret account 01:18, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Alison Rosen

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The second AfD was closed early and the article was speedily deleted under criterion G4. This decision was subsequently overturned at DRV. decltype ( talk) 12:51, 1 December 2009 (UTC) reply

  • Note how Karpaydm mentioned awards. Those can make person notable. In that case you only need to verify the information. The amount of coverage you're asking for is only needed when the coverage itself is supposed to establish notability. - Mgm| (talk) 10:35, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Delete and salt. Miserably fails WP:CREATIVE. Almost all sources are WP:SELFPUB, and the rest do not pass WP:RS or WP:V to the extent that notability is established. Article has been recreated several times after having been deleted through AfD's and CSD's, and should be protected against re-creation to save us all the trouble of a fourth AfD. SnottyWong talk 02:49, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Please note that this is only the second time this article has been listed. The first time (not my contribution) it had woefully inadequate references (blogs, you tube). This second version was written by myself and was speedy deleted for being "too similar to the original" which the deletion review determined was unfair since it had been considerably altered from the original version. Surely you don't SALT a topic because someone went through hours and hours of research in order to replace the original, unacceptable article with a legitimate and unbiased article. - Karpaydm| (talk)
  • FYI, the Orange County awards were to establish her success early in her career. Also note that the reference is an LA Times piece where the LA Times apparently thought it was important enough that they wrote an article about their own authors that won those same awards. She also won an award for New York's Funniest Reporter in 2008. See references 21 and 22 http://www.nyfunniestreporter.com/2008_Recap.html and http://www.stagetimemag.com/standup/?p=3677. I am guessing this doesn't mean anything on the notability scale to you, but she also has an IMDB page, is a "Verified Twitter Celebrity", and has her own iPhone application. She also has done about 10 commentaries for biographies on the A&E channel. Seriously, how can all of these others sources that determine notoriety not be enough for a supposedly open/free information service like Wikipedia. As the other "keep" vote below pointed out, why is this so hard? Because the delete voters don't know her? Karpaydm —Preceding undated comment added 14:57, 6 December 2009 (UTC). reply
  • Weak delete A lot of articles only mention this person in passing and the articles by Rosen herself give no indication if she was a regular staff writer or a freelancer for said publications (which makes a huge difference). One article in People is not enough to draw on its notability to establish yourself as a noteworthy writer. There is no indication how important the award mentioned is. - Mgm| (talk) 10:35, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Added that she was a staffer (not a freelancer) at People and highlighted numerous articles with numerous top celebrities. Also, how does one indicate the importance of an award? - Karpaydm| (talk)
  • Delete no evidence the situation has changed substantially since the AFD less than 3 weeks ago. Recommend SALTing until a rock-solid (and preferably COI-free) userspace draft is presented, so we don't have to go through this every 3 weeks from here on out. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 20:58, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Again, there was one original article (not by me) that was terrible. It was deleted. I rewrote it after extensive research and it was speedy deleted unfairly as determined by the deletion review. So this is only the second article about Rosen and the first legitimate and unbiased version. I also think that the controversy that was sparked by her interview with Ed Koch was not highlighted enough until I revised the article today. Finally, I assume COI means "Conflict of Interest". Please explain the conflict of interest. - Karpaydm| (talk)
  • Which sources are unreliable? As far as your claim of "trivial coverage" goes, typically journalists (even when really famous) are not "talked about" in other sources. They are notable because of the publications they write for, the television programs they are on, and the subjects they cover in both genres. I am guessing you are familiar with ESPN television journalist Dan Patrick and have no problem with his page existing, yet his page has no references "about him". However, in this case Rosen became quite well known for her coverage of Ed Koch and I added numerous third party sources citing as much Karpaydm| (talk) 8:51, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep I don't understand why people go out of their way to try and delete peoples pages for no apparent reason. This page isn't hurting anyone. She's written for multiple mainstream publications and has appeared on multiple television programs. It's not taking food out of anyones childrens mouths by having this page up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.14.111.39 ( talk) 16:42, 4 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Delete but Do Not Salt Article recreated once doesn't approach salting threshold for me, particularly where subject has a reasonable shot at achieving notability at some point (as opposed to a deceased subject, for example). Vartanza ( talk) 03:33, 7 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Secret account 01:18, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

List of Heroes production crew

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I believe Mgm is referring to the infobox, which lists both executive producers and producers as "executive producers". There is a difference between the two. The infobox does not support "producer", so it would be easiest to just list them in the production section. Ω pho is 19:25, 7 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Secret account 01:19, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Midlands University Snooker Championship

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Article doesn't meet Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, because it is a regional championship, which isn't covered by reliable sources, as student papers aren't reliable sources. Armbrust ( talk) 00:23, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

  • Delete lacks reliable sources (only ones provided are written by the clubs themselves or are student newspapers, less than reliable sources) not finding much else. Limited to a handful of universities which is probably why significant coverage is not available. RadioFan ( talk) 01:46, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. I wouldn't call student newspapers unreliable by definition, but this article should be deleted on other grounds. Sports competitions should only be listed if they're supported by the official organization of that sport or if they're international. This clearly doesn't qualify as the sort of event Wikipedia should cover. - Mgm| (talk) 10:15, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was moved to The Enright House. MuZemike 01:39, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

The Enright House discography

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See WP:MUSIC-Criteria for musicians and ensembles. No notability for this discography or any of the releases therein can be established until someone takes the time to write a supported article about the band itself. A cursory web search for The Enright House reveals a few sources that might be a start for a band article. After that is the time to create articles for albums and singles, and after that comes the discography. Doomsdayer520 ( Talk| Contribs) 13:08, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Secret account 01:20, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Planet of the Dogs

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Essentially spam for some non-notable children's books. Claims to have been reviewed but none of the links are to a review. — RHaworth ( talk · contribs) 13:02, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

That's simply due to contributor inexperience. A simple google search enabled me to find the bookdads review quite easily. - Mgm| (talk) 10:06, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Delete No sign of notability. ~ YellowFives 16:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Delete: I can't find significant coverage for this book series. Joe Chill ( talk) 23:55, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k ( talk) 02:06, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Delete What worries me about this entry is how the publisher appears to be created especially for this particular series and how they don't appear to have published anything else. Combined with the statement "The publishers, Barking Planet Productions, hold a copyright for all the books in the Planet of the Dogs series and hold a trademark for the name/title Planet of the Dogs." and the use of catalogs as references, I suspect this is an attempt at self-promotion from someone who has no clue about the publishing industry. 1) Copyright belongs to the author rather than the publisher unless they did a work for hire. The publisher gets certain rights, but with trustworthy ones copyright isn't one of them. 2) Catalogs list all published books. While they prove the book exists, they do nothing to establish notability. Reviews can, in my opinion be reasonable sources, assuming the reviewer is well-known as an authority in their field. Unfortunately, I have no clue about who these reviewers are. I'll withdraw my vote if the publisher can be established to be independent from the author or when I can get some indication of sales numbers. - Mgm| (talk) 10:06, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - Not much to add to the above reasons, Lord Spongefrog , (Talk to me, or I'll eat your liver!) 11:48, 5 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was keep. Secret account 01:20, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Fiona McLaughlin

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This biographical article fails to meet WP:PROF as McLaughlin is described as a senior researcher and her significance is not otherwise clear. Examining Google Scholar and checking her staff page on http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/SCI/osap/people/mclaughlin_e.htm, it is not clear that the requirements of WP:PROF will be definitively addressed by later addition of available sources. Ash ( talk) 11:32, 24 November 2009 (UTC) reply

  • Comment, Google News shows she was chief scientist of the Institute of Ocean Sciences in 2004 Sherurcij ( speaker for the dead) 12:46, 24 November 2009 (UTC) reply
    • Sure, her staff page says "in 1996 as chief scientist of a southern Beaufort Sea expedition; and, in 1997, as chief scientist of a multidisciplinary expedition in the Canadian Arctic Archipelago as part of the SHEBA/JOIS project". These were expeditions (i.e. projects) rather than fixed departments so I do not believe the role of chief scientist in this sense fulfils the intent of the PROF requirement "has held a major highest-level elected or appointed academic post" (or other equivalent section in PROF). I suspect that the Google News source you found is likely to be using "chief scientist" in this sense rather than as "the" chief scientist of the IOS.— Ash ( talk) 12:54, 24 November 2009 (UTC) reply
      • There were multiple authors on the Science (journal) article -- but McLaughlin was the one reporters chose to interview for their coverage of the article. That could mean the reporters regarded her as the most important author, or the most articulate, or the most photogenic (Canwest owns a TV network). Geo Swan ( talk) 19:21, 24 November 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Ms McLaughlin is a scientist who just published an important article in Science (journal), on an important topic -- global warming. She and her colleagues found something surprising and disturbing -- recent changes to the chemical composition of the waters of the Beaufort Sea were interfering with plankton ability to form their carbonate shells. The Ocean was close to the brink of being so acidified that it would begin to dissolve the shells of existing plankton. Neither Science (journal) or the wikipedia is supposed to engage in sensationalism. Neither of us is supposed to do the literary equivalent of waving our arms around and shouting, "Warning Will Robinson! Warning Will Robinson!". But, this is a "Warning Will Robinson!" moment. The Science paper is only a recent instance of a long record of significant publications. Under "recent publications" her official biography listed 21 publications. Geo Swan ( talk) 16:01, 24 November 2009 (UTC) reply
    • The importance of her research area or the IOS is not at issue, I'm certain quite a few other articles exist on global warming and acidification. If you wish to consider her notability based on her body of publications then WP:PROF#Criteria#1 appears to apply. However from the list of publications, they appear to be team efforts rather than establishing her name in particular. Clearly to demonstrate her impact on the field, third party sources would need to support the article establishing her name as significant. Adding a few such third party sources that do this would address notability.— Ash ( talk) 16:19, 24 November 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Using Scopus, I find 31 articles. The highest cites are 119, 117, 115, 102. The journals are almost entirely journals of the highest rank in the subject. This is enough to establish her as an authority in the subject. We normally do say that for anyone with multiple citations over 1200 -- not that I would propose such as a formal criterion, because it depends on the subject. I think nominating an article because " it is not clear that the requirements of WP:PROF will be definitively addressed" is ignoring WP:BEFORE. If there is significant indication that they might be met, the appropriate thing is to look for additional references. If it is fairly clear that they will not be, then AfD is appropriate. I point out that our requirements for keeping an article do not include "definitive" proof of anything. "Reasonable", or "on balance" are closer to the usual way we do things. DGG ( talk ) 18:38, 24 November 2009 (UTC) reply
    • Your criticism of the nomination is interesting as I did actually point out that I had checked Google Scholar and I had checked her staff page which gives a fairly comprehensive bibliography. Perhaps the nomination should have been positively phrased, for example "There is no evidence in Google Scholar of any significant published articles attributed solely or led by this author that have been recognized by third party publications as having substantial impact or that this author holds a highest level post or has received a prestigious international award...", however I kind of expected that to be implied by referring to WP:PROF. Thinking through the checks I did make and considering the clear criteria of PROF, I still consider that in raising this AFD I did go through the process recommended in BEFORE.— Ash ( talk) 19:38, 24 November 2009 (UTC) reply
my apology, for you did indicate that. The point of where the balance is remains, if it is not clear whether of not something should be deleted, it is not deleted. But I realize that this may just be a matter of wording & you genuinely doubt the notability. DGG ( talk ) 22:44, 24 November 2009 (UTC) reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mgm| (talk) 12:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Secret account 01:21, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Reverse franchise

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I don't believe this concept is a notable one; the current page looks a lot like an advertisement Polarpanda ( talk) 11:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

  • Delete, unambiguous advertising: The cost and time saving benefits of the reverse franchise open the door to new competition on what seems monopolized markets by larger nationwide franchises already established. Proper marketing is key to the success of the reverse franchise but is often easily accomplished as the private companies are often willing to buy in to a franchise if the benefits outweighs the negatives which they often do due to cost saving methods naturally taken by the reverse franchise. - Smerdis of Tlön ( talk) 15:37, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Unverified, non-notable information. Article mentions Larry Morrison as the person who coined the term, and what was the SPA who created the article? You guessed it, LarryMorrison. It's WP:SPAM and should be deleted. Angryapathy ( talk) 16:01, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was keep. Deletion is not an issue here, if a merge is needed, it can be discussed at the talkpage. Tone 16:28, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

New Finn Harps Stadium

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I find the article is non-noticable. Pookeo9 Talk If you need anything 11:37, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

  • Merge and redirect to Finn Park. The references are there, and it's useful information. It just doesn't belong in a separate article yet, because the building has not yet been constructed and put to use. Putting the information in the last section of the existing stadium where related information is already present is in my opinion the best solution. - Mgm| (talk) 11:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. Stadium is under construction and it is a separate venue to existing stadium. In addition, nominator's rationale has more than a hint of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Patken4 ( talk) 22:55, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football related deletions. Patken4 ( talk) 00:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was keep. – Juliancolton |  Talk 00:40, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Acid Dreams- The Original

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WP:NALBUMS. Very rare item with only one source found to confirm its existence. Search reveals many other albums of same name but almost no third-party discussion of the album in question. It appears to have been mentioned in the book "Acid Dreams" by Martin A. Lee and probably really existed as a special promotional item featuring a few notable artists, but notability for the album itself is lacking. Also this article is functioning more as a a talk page with these same arguments. Doomsdayer520 ( Talk| Contribs) 10:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

  • Comment. I, for one, really appreciate it when a nom takes a second look and -- where the fact support it, often w/new sources/articles, reversed himself. It save other editors time. Kudos to Doomsdayer. If someone could close this as a keep that would help forestall further AfDs on the article, I imagine.-- Epeefleche ( talk) 08:07, 7 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was redirect to Mao Xinyu. Kevin ( talk) 01:49, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Mao Dongdong

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per WP:CRYSTAL and ' Notability is not inherited'. Six-year-old great-grandson of " the great helmsman". I redirected it to Mao Xinyu but it was undone. Ohconfucius ¡digame! 10:05, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was no consensus. Secret account 01:39, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

List of Paper Mario series characters (2nd nomination)

List of Paper Mario series characters (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD)
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After several months of surviving from no consensus one way or the other, none of the problems have been addressed. The only out-of-universe information in the article is a single sentence describing the visual design of the characters. At some point we have to acknowledge that the problems won't be fixed after not having been fixed for several years; if someone wants to do major fixes in the span of the AfD, be my guest, but I don't think there should be anymore extra chances to fix the problems that are brought up every time an AfD is made. Besides lacking notability, it's got four cleanup tags, and is in general a mess - the article is completely unbalanced, giving undue weight to minor characters. The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 08:02, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

  • Selectively merge to Paper Mario (series). I may switch or reaffirm my opinion later on in what I predict will be a lengthy debate. The first AfD, as the closing admin stated, was laden with weak arguments. I do note that no discussion has taken place on the article's talk page since the first AfD which states that there is both a lack of interest in the article, and a lack of a cleanup effort. This is an only observation and doesn't go against the article at all. I'll quote what I wrote at the first AfD, as the rationale still applies here, hopefully without the influx of bad arguments.
  • Looking over this list, I don't see a need for a good 90% of the material on here, as it is just way too detailed, or "crufty" as some say, for a general encyclopedia article. Also I'm not sure that most of this can be cited from reliable sources without having to use original research. The content and scope of this list are out of whack: read over entries like "Jolene" and you'll see what I mean when I say this article has major OR and plot issues. I imagine a possible solution would be to merge this to the main article and there we can create an encyclopedic understanding of the characters. This solution applies just as well to the article now as it did to it back in July. Them From Space 08:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Keep As Maramusine says, the standout characters already have their own articles, and this is not being challenged. So what do we do about the other ones, the ones that are a little less than notable? Some people want to fight for individual articles on them, but I do not think that is necessary, except for major characters--I have no longer been defending such articles. Some think they can be removed entirely, or reduced to bare names on a list, but that's not encyclopedic. The compromise is to have them in combination articles. It's much easier to make decisions when there is a way to compromise, and keeping this article is the compromise solution. As the Fiction guideline rules discussions faded, essentially everyone there on all sides had accepted some sort of compromise of this sort, though there was considerable disagreement about its nature and limits, in every possible direction, which has prevented formal consensus on any one solution, as is often the case with guidelines. Rejecting such compromise is going to leave only one solution for the people who do want content about these characters, which is to go back to the old practice of individual articles. I want to avoid that. I also want to avoid the feeling that people on one side of an issue refuse to compromise. The inclusionist side is apparently willing, and has done so, in accepting these combination articles--I do not speak for them, but I can observe that they have de facto accepted them. As for the content, I think most of it is OK. The sections for some of the characters are probably slightly excessive, but this does not have the really outrageous overexpansion we sometimes see: a paragraph about each is perfectly reasonable. For a complex series, an approach through the characters is often a good way to go. I certainly find understanding a list like this much easier than to read the equivalent material arranged as a single plot (this isn't inherent, but it is much easier to write short sections on a character than to cope with a complicated plot, and many of our editors would be wise to start in on something relatively small, because they certainly make a mess of anything longer.) DGG ( talk ) 20:22, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
    • Such compromises are unnecessary. What does this provide besides an excessive plot summary? Why does Kolorado need two paragraphs to cover his minor supporting role in a single game? There needs to be an established need for this list, not just "oh hey we want to show more plot". An acceptable compromise would be to expand discussion of the partner characters in their respective articles and that's it. Don't you think there's something wrong when Kolorado's plot summary is of comparable length to the plot summary of the game he appears in? - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 21:12, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Keep as an appropriate list and discuss reasonable default ways to handle these articles. It seems obvious that minor characters are clearer when presented here than in a plot summary... and yes, its sad that there was no discussion on the talk page since the last AFD. So why not start one with the various editors who have contributed to this list in the past? Developing working compromises on articles such as this is a realsitic way to improve the project. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 22:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Nothing wrong with this character list. Three very notable games, with millions of copies sold(for the second two anyway, the first game not having its sales figures listed in its article), are as deserving as a character list as series of bestselling novels, anime/cartoons, and manga/comics. Isn't there a policy about character list somewhere? Are now that they've gotten rid of 99% of the articles for individual characters, are they now going to destroy all the character list articles as well? Dream Focus 23:20, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
    • I'm not sure if it's specifically mentioned in policy or guideline, but secondhand notability is not notability. If the popularity of the game means it warrants a list of characters, then every aspect of the game is notable enough and requiring a list of enemies, or a list of locations. And another no-no is "these similar article exists, so this list has to exist". And Wikipedia tries to cover every aspect of a game it can without going into excess. Some characters will get lost in merging/deleting characters and character lists, but them's the breaks. The major characters of the three Paper Marios are all mentioned in their respective articles - they could perhaps use a little more mention, like the partners' effects on gameplay, but beyond that, there are many characters in all three Paper Mario not mentioned in the list, so that argument would necessitate indiscriminate inclusion of all characters from the series. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 07:24, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - Wikipedia has a policy against listing minor characters without citations. All major characters are already at Paper Mario (series) and the series doesn't need an in-depth character list. Listing all minor characters and enemies like this is practically WP:GAMEGUIDE material. Finally, the people who keep arguing to keep the article are completely unwilling to clean it up, probably because doing so is practically impossible without any external references besides game guides and the game itself. Unless there is cultural significance, articles about characters belong in FAQs, specialized Wikis and the like.-- ZXCVBNM ( TALK) 23:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Keep per Wikipedia's policies in favor of listing major characters like these who verifiable through reliable sources, i.e. as as subjects are clearly notable as demonstrated by the improvements made to the article since nomination, that they come from a recognizable franchise, and the fact that the items on this list can be verified by reliable sources as linked within this discussion to Google News and Books. I did a Google book search and did find some information on development and reception that I added to the article. There appears to be oodles more on Google News. So, perhaps expanding the development and reception information would be a good start to build off of my additions. The series needs an in-depth character list as such articles belong on Wikipedia per our First pillar of being a specialized encyclopedia. Sincerely, -- A Nobody My talk 23:22, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
I still don't see how they need a separate article. Mario and the rest all have separate articles already where the information can be noted. That leaves the minor characters from the Paper Mario games, and the information you just cited could easily go in the development section of Paper Mario or in the main Mario role-playing games article.-- ZXCVBNM ( TALK) 01:29, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
If you would prefer to merge as a compromise per WP:PRESERVE, that is acceptable as well. Best, -- A Nobody My talk 01:37, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Try to preserve them, it does not necessitate preservation. Preservation is good if the content is established as important, but it's a question of how much content need be preserved. Any character that has its own article obviously needs not be mentioned in the article besides having a {{mainarticle}} link, while I'll repeat that any compromise would not involve criteria for inclusion. A compromise would be for this article to exist, trimmed down to only necessary/notable content and well-referenced. The compromise ended up being at the opposite end of what those who want it deleted asked for, and it just ended up as a low quality list with no established reason to exist besides "we need to preserve it!" If the content is deemed unnecessary, then preservation is unnecessary. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 07:24, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Actually, the information IS preserved outside of the encyclopedia, because this is game guide information. Thus, WP:PRESERVE doesn't have any bearing here.-- ZXCVBNM ( TALK) 23:46, 4 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Block vote? How slanderous. Do you ever see more than a handful of the ARS members in any AFD at a time? You see far more people from various other Wikiprojects all showing up at the same areas and voting delete, more often than anything else. Those most active on AFD will see familiar names, often voting the same way everywhere they choose to participate. Dream Focus 16:31, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply
You know what I find hilarious is that despite the fact there's a big fat rescue tag up there not a single thing's been done to improve the article. It's AfD: many people here have genuine concerns and there's no "right" for an article to absolutely have to exist. As its stands many characters in this series are exclusive to it though some could be salvaged and put in the series article. Are you interested in an encyclopedic study of material or simply trying to keep it all at any cost? AfD isn't "to nuke or not to nuke", it's a call that some (and yes some, not all) people genuinely believe "this may be crap, improve it or it has to go".-- Kung Fu Man ( talk) 17:25, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply
AFD is not cleanup. If you have a problem with an article, discuss it on the talk page. Millions of people play these games, and the characters are an important part of it, so they listed in a side article, instead of overwhelming the main list. Dream Focus 18:55, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply
It's not overwhelming to list only the major characters in the main list. We've had a problem with this article for the longest time; we kind of figured that the, what, five AfDs would eventually get someone to work on it? It's up for deletion because no one wants to clean it up, and hasn't for years. You always talk about compromise, but it's not a compromise with what you propose. You basically propose "Oh, let's leave the article in its current state. Compromise?" No, see, that's you getting everything and us getting nothing out of said compromise. A compromise would either be "cleanup and it won't be deleted" [aka, the compromise given with every AfD before this] or "include the major characters in the main list". The latter is great because nobody wins! - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 19:10, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply
I never talk of compromising, finding that a ridiculous concept. Others have stated that a compromise was to let them mass delete a vast number of character articles, and just combining them to character list articles. Then once that was done they "trimmed" the character list articles, and have been trying to delete them entirely as well. Dream Focus 19:18, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply
So basically, you make an assumption of bad faith and use it as an argument to keep this article. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 19:23, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply
What? You don't like the article, so you want to destroy it. I do not see any legitimate reason to do so. Simple as that. Anything else is just a lame excuse for people to justify their actions. Dream Focus 19:29, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply
How can I like it? How can I like little to no references, no criteria for inclusion, no notability asserted, etc.? Here's an idea - instead of defending it every five months and forgetting about it immediately after, give me any reason to like it by improving it in any way. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 19:41, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply
The many people who have contributed to it, and many who have read it, think its fine the way it is. We are not here to make you like it. The Wikipedia is to be used by millions, it unlikely that any article, no matter how it is written, will appeal to even a tenth of them. A few million people bought the games, which means billions of others did not, and probably don't care about them. That doesn't mean you shouldn't care when someone tries to pointlessly destroy something that others have worked hard on, and many do in fact care about. Dream Focus 19:48, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply
(fixing indent) Well, it's great that you think it's good without having any good qualities to it, more power to you. But no human being here has ever suggested that "oh hey billions of people never heard of it. Delete!" You keep generalizing people calling for its deletion as holding torches and pitchforks. We are not calling for its deletion because of its subject or source material. If it had the appropriate content or tone we've been asking for for the past five AfDs, it wouldn't be up on AfD. The ONLY thing that ANYONE cares about is the quality of the subject, not the subject itself. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 19:55, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply
An AFD is about the subject, and whether it is notable enough to have an article. You do not delete something because you don't like the quality level. Dream Focus 20:01, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply
You're saying it's a problem that an article can be deleted because no one has attempted to assert notability in years? And when four AfDs came and went without improvements to the article [aside from minuscule improvements made every AfD to give the impression of improvement]. Also, why do you care so much about an article you've never edited before? - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 20:04, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply
If I saw someone suffering, even if I didn't know the person, it would bother me. If you have a conscious, you do what is you feel is right, and you care about the suffering and injustice directed at others. You don't like their work, so you wish to destroy it. I see no valid reasons to do so. And if it survived that many previous AFD, why do you keep trying? Most people want it left alone, so leave it alone already. Why are you so determined to destroy it? Dream Focus 20:06, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply
For the same reason that I want gone any article that lacks notability and references. If you're suffering over a Wikipedia article, that's a problem. I've had my fair share of articles I've worked on that were merged, redirected, or outright deleted, but I got over it because they had their points. I'm not going to say I want the article to be here so I don't hurt peoples' feelings; clearly, Wikipedia is not for you. If you want low standards of quality for your content, go to the Mario Wikia. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 20:11, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per ZXCVBNM. Additionally, if any one feels that this might be a candidate for trans-wiki to the [www.mariowiki.com|Super Mario Wiki], please hit up my talk page. Thanks. -- Jelly Soup ( talk) 23:17, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Update: Article has improved dramatically since nomination and has addressed any reasonable concerns for deletion. Best, -- A Nobody My talk 23:22, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply
    • Dramatically? Two references and a reception paragraph does not classify as dramatically improved, nor has my stance been "refuted". Now you're just stifling other people's commentary. Now, if ALL the characters had at least one citation, THAT would be enough to make me change my stance. However, right now they don't have anything close to that. The characters are still unsourced and have no external references. Claiming that it was refuted is just hogwash and seems like a last ditch attempt to save your position. As I said before, those references you added could easily be used in the main article.-- ZXCVBNM ( TALK) 00:22, 7 December 2009 (UTC) reply
      • " Super Paper Mario: Characters and History Interview," GameTrailers.com (Apr 16, 2007) is undeniably an external reference. Best, -- A Nobody My talk 00:26, 7 December 2009 (UTC) reply
        • References and overall prose has been updated, but that's never been the issue. The issue is that there's an indiscriminate list of very minor characters here. Heck, I'd even change over to a keep vote if it weren't for the fact that it lists practically every character in the series, notable or not. -- Teancum ( talk) 01:15, 7 December 2009 (UTC) reply
          • That video is a developer interview, hence, it does not prove notability since it's completely self contained. It might reference the information but it doesn't prove that it is notable. Characters such as Mario have a whole bunch of cultural impact and that makes them noteworthy for an encyclopedia. Are there any PAPER MARIO EXCLUSIVE characters in that list which have any cultural impact that you can reference? If I made a game and made a list of its characters on Wikipedia, would it be any different than this one??-- ZXCVBNM ( TALK) 03:26, 7 December 2009 (UTC) reply
              • That a reliable website sees fit to list it proves notability by any reasonable definition of the subjective and anti-encyclopedic term of "notable." Comparing a list of characters from a multi-series game franchise covered in published reliable sources with something you would hypothetically just make up one day is indeed quite different and beyond apples and oranges. Best, -- A Nobody My talk 04:35, 7 December 2009 (UTC) reply
                • Again, it does not count as a secondary source because it was from the developer. It does not matter if IGN hosted Nintendo's statements, it's still Nintendo's statement. It's not cultural impact - that Nintendo commented on their own content is not unexpected and does not quality for use in the article. What we want is an explanation for why these minor characters warrant inclusion, not why these major characters that have their own articles already are important. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 06:25, 7 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Selective merge: The citation by A Nobody is quality but would be better placed in the article on the specific game, if it isn't already. The majority of the characters listed here are either [exceptionally] minor characters or otherwise have articles of their own, such as Mario. Those inbetween the two types would be the ideal merge targets up to their parent game articles. If a merge is not possible which would preserve the integrity of the target articles per WP:PLOT, than a straight up delete would be fine. In the end, this articles serves as a regurgitation of unnecessary plot. -- Izno ( talk) 08:33, 7 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Strong keep excellent improvements by editor A Nobody and others means the article easilly meets our noteability criterea. Even if any doubt remains, we should keep this very informative article per m:Vision. Vision and Mission statements trump other guidelines. FeydHuxtable ( talk) 12:23, 7 December 2009 (UTC) reply
    Your latter statements are weaker than your former, which is weak in and of itself. As for why: The latter are weak due to the specifics of "The Vision". We're looking to produce knowledge. What we have here in this article is data; information. Knowledge is organized data and information curated in order to provide a broad but systematic view of the topic. This article does not aid in that whatsoever. As for the former, that's easily disputed and already has been. -- Izno ( talk) 12:34, 7 December 2009 (UTC) reply
    To clarify, encyclopaedias dont aim to produce knowledge – that would require original research. Our purpose is to relay existing knowledge, and with respect to this subject the article does a great job. FeydHuxtable ( talk) 13:41, 7 December 2009 (UTC) reply
    Erm, so you ignored basically the entirety of what I said in lieu of answering that one sentence?... -- Izno ( talk) 14:16, 7 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Well I dont agree my statements were weak, and think the per Vision point was the stronger of the two. But i dont see any harm in others haveing a different opinion so didnt see the need to challenge your assessment. I hope i didnt seem overly terse, its just some folk round here seem to prefer concise remarks! FeydHuxtable ( talk) 15:06, 7 December 2009 (UTC) reply
For one, I do not see what is excellent - by the fact that it fails to address one of the major complaints of the opposing side; his improvements only assert notability for the characters whose notability is established already. The information validates the content that needn't be validated, so what did his improvements do to make the Paper Mario-exclusive characters notable? And it's not OR to produce information. Production is not necessarily creating our own information, but recreating information on this Wikipedia. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 18:59, 7 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was speedy delete. because the creator/subject asked for it and no one else added any substantial information. Mgm| (talk) 11:50, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Philip Julian

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Unresolved tagged issues. POV/Original research by subject of wiki page only. No reliable sources. Philip Julian ( talk) 07:57, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Secret account 01:13, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Steve_Yegge

AfDs for this article:
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None-notable programmer WoodenBuddha ( talk) 05:10, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Why do we care if he claims notability? ErikHaugen ( talk) 22:09, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Because if he doesn't claim notablity, the page can be speedy deleted under WP:A7 TheWeakWilled ( T * G) 23:40, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Actually, I believe it's not so much if HE claims notability, so much as if the article claims he's notable. WoodenBuddha ( talk) 02:35, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Not even that - you're talking now about deficiencies in the article, not whether it should be deleted. The failure of Steve or the article to establish notoriety is not an issue here. ErikHaugen ( talk) 22:42, 7 December 2009 (UTC) reply


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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Weekly Prekshit

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The result was speedy delete. the article has its text directly lifted from the cisco website, meaning it qualifies as both a copyright violation and spam. Mgm| (talk) 12:05, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Cisco 1800 Series

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no proof of notability. Ironholds ( talk) 18:58, 25 November 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was redirect to Resident Evil#Portable games (non-admin closure). Heavyweight Gamer ( talk) 08:41, 8 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Resident Evil Mobile Games

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Content is entirely redundant to Resident Evil. The distinction does not appear to be notable. OrangeDog ( τ • ε) 20:58, 25 November 2009 (UTC) reply

Would it be appropriate to NAC this as such per WP:BOLD/ WP:IAR? Heavyweight Gamer ( talk) 11:48, 26 November 2009 (UTC) reply
I don't think so: only one person has suggested it. OrangeDog ( τ •  ε) 22:09, 26 November 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Secret account 01:14, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Sharafat Khan

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No assertion of notability. His "newspaper" is an independent blog that covers " suppressed News, Religious Revisionism, Conspiracy, Paranormal and the unexplained", and his google hits are almost nil. His "popular" nickname pulls up two hits (this article and a forum) and his common name is too common to be able to get anything from. Ironholds ( talk) 21:06, 25 November 2009 (UTC) reply

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Comment. There are a few proofs of existence for him and his paper DNA article, Mumbai press club members list. From both it looks like a small time journalist. But may be he is big in the Hindi/Urdu press. Can some one do a Hindi language google search? (i am not confident that i would spell his name correctly in hindi)-- Sodabottle ( talk) 13:04, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Wizardman 00:47, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Al Shatnawi

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Not very notable family, not much on Google and no news results.  fetch comms ☛ 21:29, 25 November 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Cirt ( talk) 05:51, 4 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Everything Engine

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I can't find significant coverage for this software. Joe Chill ( talk) 23:29, 25 November 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Wizardman 00:47, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Akbar Ali Khan Mayo

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Autobiographical entry for a journalist with no sign of notability. No third party sources, and Google searches for Akbar Ali Khan Mayo turn up only entries on various wikis. Prod and notability tags removed without improvements. Hairhorn ( talk) 00:16, 26 November 2009 (UTC) reply

  • delete, as per nom. His article is longer than that for the newspaper, which is shorter, doesn't mention him, and has only a red link to the owner. If it hasn't been improved already I can't see it getting better. JohnBlackburne ( talk) 00:07, 27 November 2009 (UTC) reply

For notability purpose ISPR Press Review should be consulted. And furhter more, article of MAnzoor Mirza should be view as Akbar Mayo contributed essays to the book of author which have been published under his name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.103.69.25 ( talk) 16:57, 30 November 2009 (UTC) reply

The notability (or not) of Manzoor Mirza isn't relevant here, and ISPR Press Review is simply a press clippings service. Have a look at the notability guidelines and wp:otherstuffexists. Hairhorn ( talk) 17:07, 30 November 2009 (UTC) reply

Delete this author if you think it proper however, some one might need to know about the person.

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What more should be added to retain the article. The authors is a writer and someone might need to know about him. So if this article is deleted then there will be nothing to know about him.-- 111.68.103.3 ( talk) 11:06, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply

The article needs evidence of notability, as described in WP:N and WP:BIO. That someone might need to know about him is not enough. JohnBlackburne ( talk) 11:36, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply

This author should be deleted as one of his articles caused controversy in newspaper. He represented a derogatory and one sided picture of the relations between two communities in Pakistan therefore deserve deletion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 111.68.103.3 ( talk) 06:53, 4 December 2009 (UTC) reply

We know him very well. He wrote many issues and his contentions were usually wrong and baised. Therefore delete him. He is not notable anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 111.68.103.3 ( talk) 16:39, 5 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Wizardman 00:54, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Friday Night Live! with Mike Koncan

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This television programme/Internet broadcast has no reliable sources demonstrating any notability; although it is impossible to access the organization's website without a password, it seems as though this is a university student-level production using a public access television channel and likely has an infinitesimal audience. Accounting4Taste: talk 18:35, 25 November 2009 (UTC) reply

Please do not delete. I am new to wikipedia but our show is seen each week by hundreds online and thousands more as part of Ryerson University's campus television station, RUtv. Many people use this article to see who will be on the show in the coming weeks...

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Notability is only required for separate articles, if this can be merged into the university article, all it needs is verifiability, not even from a third party source if the source is made totally clear. - Mgm| (talk) 09:37, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Mgm| (talk) 09:39, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply

TWAC

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duplicate of The Whole Donut, with page name completely unrelated to subject Wuh Wuz Dat 18:24, 25 November 2009 (UTC) reply

  • Delete but not per nom. The article creator apparently used another article as a template, but within a few minutes he replaced it with content about the organization he was writing about. That is not a problem. However, the article appears to be about a small local youth group, with the only sources provided being primary sources. There is no indication that the group is notable under WP:ORG. -- Metropolitan90 (talk) 05:18, 26 November 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per Metropolitan Shadowjams ( talk) 09:23, 1 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Wizardman 01:02, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Counterfolk

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Sub-sub-sub-genre of music, I can not find any real info about this and it seems to be just a local group of people trying to distinguish themselves from anti-folk. No real reliable sources on the web and google books only returned a few hits. Ridernyc ( talk) 06:31, 25 November 2009 (UTC) reply

Delete I did a pretty extensive search and found exactly the same as the nominator. All I could find were self published web pages by the one band. One band is not a genre.-- SabreBD ( talk) 07:49, 25 November 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Wizardman 05:29, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Good Old Boat

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Obvious advertising of an magazine with no reliable, secondary sources listed on the article despite the lovely logo of a boat to the west side of the article. ⇒ Pickbothmanlol 17:26, 25 November 2009 (UTC) reply

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This is what I'd usually delete as "notability not asserted". DS ( talk) 01:40, 5 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Which is way I think that you shouldn't be an admin. Joe Chill ( talk) 02:21, 5 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. NW ( Talk) 19:49, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

T.U.F.F. Puppy

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Unnotable future television series that has received no significant coverage in reliable, third-party sources nor even confirmed to be in production or being released. Only word about it has been the single press release. Fails WP:N and WP:CRYSTAL. Prod removed without reason by SPA. -- Collectonian ( talk · contribs) 06:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC) reply

Three sites reprinting the same press release is not "more" press, its none at all. You can not make your own notability by releasing press releases. -- Collectonian ( talk · contribs) 19:29, 25 November 2009 (UTC) reply
While containing much the same information as would be expected, the three articles have differences in length, content, and author. Calling something a press release does not make it one... so perhaps you can provide an official press release from Nickelodeon so comparisons can be made. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 23:49, 25 November 2009 (UTC) reply
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  • Delete The press release is quoted in full in the toonzone.net references and was paraphrased in the other two. There is no indication when the 13 episodes will start airing, but I suspect it will be in fall 2010. Given that time lag, we are better off deleting now and restoring the material if and when the series airs. Racepacket ( talk) 12:57, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Collectonian, if the network sends out a press release it makes little sense to question if the show is in production or being released. - Mgm| (talk) 09:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Um, how so? It was announced, that is not a blood contract to actually put it in production or release it. Those press releases are old and it still has not been released. -- Collectonian ( talk · contribs) 14:01, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Where? Can you provide actual confirmation beyond a single press release? Wikipedia articles are not created based on future] possible notability, but the notability it has now, which is none. -- Collectonian ( talk · contribs) 19:58, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
(ec) No they haven't. Besides, we need third party sources that say more than, "um, there's this show, which might come out a year from now, maybe". Abductive ( reasoning) 19:59, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete all as far as the deletion discussion is concerned; all articles moved to the WP:INCUBATOR per rough consensus given. Note that I did not move them as subpages of Wikipedia:Article Incubator/Engine (boogie-rock band) because I don't think the Article Incubator deals with such subpages, i.e. they won't show up on the main WP:INCUBATOR page. Please let me know if I'm incorrect on that assumption. MuZemike 22:42, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Well Oiled (album)

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I am also nominating the following related pages:

Autowreck (album) (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Live At Kent 1988 (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Engine - Live As Yer Like (Video) (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

These articles are album and video releases by the band Engine. The WP article on Engine was moved to the article incubator following an AFD discussion. These related articles are unreferenced and have no independent assertions of notability. Suggest either deleting them or moving them to sub-pages of Wikipedia:Article Incubator/Engine (boogie-rock band), as incubation improvements to the Engine article may also establish notability for these releases. -- Muchness ( talk) 06:25, 25 November 2009 (UTC) Muchness ( talk) 06:25, 25 November 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Cirt ( talk) 05:51, 4 December 2009 (UTC) reply

GT-8

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This is one of the hundreds of multi effects units in existence. It is unremarkable, has not been used on any important albums or by famous musicians. There is no assertion of notability. Conical Johnson ( talk) 05:47, 25 November 2009 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete. There must be thousands of different effects processors and pedals in existence. We should not be documenting them unless they have first been documented by reliable third party publications. That's not to say that those publications do not exist, but I'm not finding them online. JBsupreme ( talk) 15:27, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Wizardman 00:57, 6 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Boss SE70

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Non-notable product. Has not been the subject of significant non-advertisement coverage. This is obscure fancruft; the only notability for this product is that it was used (along with hundreds of other processors) by one group on one album. Conical Johnson ( talk) 05:51, 25 November 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Secret account 01:15, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Real Life Community Church

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I can't find significant coverage for this church. Joe Chill ( talk) 02:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Secret account 01:16, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

DigiTech EX-7 Expression Factory

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Non-notable product. Has not been used on famous albums or by famous musicians, has not received non-commercial coverage, makes no assertion of notability. Conical Johnson ( talk) 06:01, 25 November 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was merge to Tomball High School. – Juliancolton |  Talk 00:33, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Tomball Cougar Pride Band

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A high school marching band is not notable. No third-party references. Can be merged/redirected to Tomball High School. Reywas92 Talk 03:50, 25 November 2009 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Tim Song ( talk) 02:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
I'm soryy, but I've had enough very bad experiences with requesting a merge, reverts, and edit wars. No one responds to a proposal and nothing gets done, so I use the definative AFD. None of this information is worth keeping and it can be deleted anyway. Reywas92 Talk 14:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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The result was delete. Cirt ( talk) 05:50, 4 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Making Waves Canada

Making Waves Canada (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD)
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A national non-profit organization that does not meet WP:CLUB's basic criterion for significant coverage in secondary sources at this time. (Not to be confused with "Making Waves: Canada's Community Economic Development Magazine," which accounts for many of the Ghits when searching). Shawn in Montreal ( talk) 03:08, 25 November 2009 (UTC) reply

Sourcing: http://reporter.mcgill.ca/2009/11/small-waves-create-ripples-that-last-a-lifetime/ www.makingwavesmcmaster.org www.makingwavesmontreal.com http://www.forcesavenir.qc.ca/en/universitaire/finaliste_view/2671 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.70.188.74 ( talk) 01:27, 26 November 2009 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Tim Song ( talk) 02:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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The result was deleted by Tnxman307 . – Juliancolton |  Talk 00:32, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

SMS Agro info delivery system

SMS Agro info delivery system (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD)
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I've read this article three times and I still have no idea what it is. It has nothing to do with the title of the article, but (possibly) agriculture in India. I don't think there's a speedy deletion criteria that fits, so I decided to bring it up here. Thejadefalcon Sing your song The bird's seeds 02:18, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. – Juliancolton |  Talk 00:31, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Strathdon Caledonia Pipe Band

Strathdon Caledonia Pipe Band (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD)
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fails WP:MUSIC and WP:ORG. could only find 1 gnews hit [14]. LibStar ( talk) 01:52, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

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The result was keep. – Juliancolton |  Talk 00:30, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Irish pre-Celtic substrate language

Irish pre-Celtic substrate language (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD)
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Article is totally SYNTH, OR, and FRINGE. It cites a Yahoo group and a post on listserv. There is also no such term in existence. Google only turns up what this page has produced. DinDraithou ( talk) 01:20, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply

  • Delete: Hoax. Joe Chill ( talk) 02:18, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. I'm not going to call WP:HOAX here, as I don't think this is a hoax - I think it's an earnest attempt in linguistic studies. WP:FRINGE is a maybe. However, I do see WP:SYNTH, as well as a lack of notability, and it's definitely original research. Therein lies the trifecta. -- Dennis The Tiger ( Rawr and stuff) 02:27, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
    • Changing !vote to keep on account of discussion below. My statements still stand - I'm still rather cnocerned about the synthesis factor, and I'm not sure on the notability - but given that we have similar articles, I'm going to rely on an existing precedent here and assume that it will continue to improve. That, and I lurve the Celtic languages. =) -- Dennis The Tiger ( Rawr and stuff) 22:53, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Keep I don;t think it's really fringe. As for N, there seem to a be a few jstor articles right in this article to give it substance. Whether there wasa pre-Celtic population is I believe debatable, as are all questions involving population and language change in the period. I don;t know the current scholarly consensus, if there is one, but I do know this concept was accepted m in the past, and would therefore remain notable The article does have some OR--the section an analogs will have to go unless it can be sourced. DGG ( talk ) 05:51, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Delete + Note: I have now looked at all three actual articles cited and find nothing to support the existence of this article at Wikipedia. The main text has been completely fabricated, with the discussion not derived from any source, and the author fails to mention that in Ériu 53 (2003) Schrijver is dismissed by Isaac (pp. 151-5). While there is general agreement among scholars that a pre-IE language at one point existed in Ireland, just as pre-Present languages have existed all over the world, no substratum survival has ever been demonstrated. The author also fails to mention that Schrijver's FRINGE contention is that there was a survival of pre-IE into the 6th century AD, which is rejected by every available resource. DinDraithou ( talk) 06:06, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. — Ladyof Shalott 06:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. — Ladyof Shalott 06:37, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. + An gr 06:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Keep, but perhaps under a different name, and clean up. Definitely not a hoax; there is serious discussion among reputable linguists (Schrijver's hypotheses may prove to be incorrect, but he is no crackpot) whether traces of a pre-Indo-European substrate language can be found in Irish. The pro (e.g. Schrijver) and contra (e.g. Isaac) sides need to be presented in better balance, for NPOV, and the whole bit comparing the situation to Australia, Chinese Turkestan, and Turkey is OR and needs to be deleted, but the article as a whole is on a genuine topic of academic discourse. Perhaps Non-Indo-European substrate effects in Irish would be a better title as it would not imply that the article is about a particular language, but rather about an aspect of the history of Irish. + An gr 06:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Keep, weakly. I may try to work on this a bit, but that's going to require some prep time. IIRC, the most frequently cited evidence of substrate influence -- the VSO default word order -- is hardly touched on here. I'd suggest renaming this to Insular Celtic substrate hypothesis, to match Germanic substrate hypothesis. - Smerdis of Tlön ( talk) 15:48, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • That I can support. A move to that title and a rack of tags would be acceptable, or a total delete followed by the creation of Insular Celtic substrate hypothesis, there not being much to move from the current article. Either way we can then happily go into how most of the allegedly unique to IE features of Insular Celtic, VSO included, can be divided up by a few modern Romance dialects and the occasional reconstruction of Proto-Slavic. DinDraithou ( talk) 16:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Keep per DGG, as well as that this is well-documented theory. It is not a hoax, nor necesarily a fringe theory - lingistics is not as settled a field as it was c. 1986 (when I was in college). An example not yet explored is Ptarmigan; see these WP:good sources: [15], [16]. Bearian ( talk) 21:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC) reply
    • I doubt linguistics was as settled a field in 1986 as you thought it was. One thing I learned as a graduate student in linguistics is that professors tend to paint a simplified picture for the benefit of undergraduates, and often in their own research argue vehemently against the very theories they present to their undergrads as uncontroversial facts of linguistics. + An gr 07:21, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
LOL. I'm afraid I do the same thing! Bearian ( talk) 18:24, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Keep - It needs renaming because there are quite a few potential sources of borrowings, but the subject matter is generally valid. It is a bit, um, minor? but that's never stopped nobody from writing an article on it. The Celtic Languages in Contact: Papers from the Workshop within the Framework of the XIII International Congress of Celtic Studies, Bonn, 26-27 July 2007. is a reliable source and there is material in it discussing potential Wanderwörten, substrate borrowings, etc. Ogress smash! 23:41, 3 December 2009 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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