The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep, at least for now. Those in favor of deletion are correct that this is in need of major cleanup, at a minimum. However, a significant number of people want to give interested editors some time to work on it, especially since at least one has articulated a tentative plan. So let's try that first. — TKD:: Talk 17:50, 21 January 2007 (UTC) reply

List of terms in Xenosaga

List of terms in Xenosaga (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - ( View log)

Delete Lengthy and unsourced glossary type article on a fictional topic, but the vast amount of detail which constitutes most of this article looks like fanfic, and I cannot find any reliable sources. If verifiable, reliable sources cannot be supplied for this, it should be deleted as per WP:V. In addition, This article suffers under notability, it is written from an entirely in-universe perspective, with nothing at all in the world of out-of-universe, real-world citation. Where's the cultural relevance for a general readers encylopedia? Larry laptop 10:46, 14 January 2007 (UTC) reply

• Keep - Let me just run down a few things. First off, the reliable sources: the game is a reliable source. More specifically, it's the primary source, and as such is perfectly suitable for matters of WP:RS and WP:V, but not WP:N. Instead, notability is in this case asserted by the "parent" article which the list was (presumably) split off from: Xenosaga. From WP:FICT: "Minor characters (and places, concepts, etc.) in a work of fiction should be merged with short descriptions into a "List of characters." This list should reside in the article relating to the work itself, unless it becomes long, in which case a separate article for the list is good practice. (emphasis mine) The rest of the nominator's objections warrant a cleanup, not a deletion. -- Y | yukichigai ( _ramble argue ^check) 11:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC) reply

I accept some of your points but if we followed what you said to your logical conclusion "list of colour of booties that Link wore" would be fine because notability would be expressed by the parent article of "the legend of Zelda" would be there and we'd have the primary source of the game to draw upon. -- Larry laptop 11:31, 14 January 2007 (UTC) reply

No, because if that information were included in the article it would be removed as "tangential" or "irrelevant" information. Notability of list information is established by its notability if it were included in the main article, irrespective of the effect it would have on article flow/size/etc. in that hypothetical. Each of the elements (as far as I can tell) in this list is about a specific plot point, character, or otherwise significant thing within the Xenosaga fiction. -- Y | yukichigai ( _ramble argue ^check) 11:53, 14 January 2007 (UTC) reply

• Keep per List of coloured boots that Link wore. -- tjstrf talk 11:53, 14 January 2007 (UTC) reply

• Comment - Sonofa... well I guess it's not too tangential then. :P -- Y | yukichigai ( _ramble argue ^check) 11:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC) reply

• In case anyone was wondering, they all happen to be brown. Except the flippers, which aren't really boots. -- tjstrf talk 12:00, 14 January 2007 (UTC) reply

Oh my lord! :-) (is this going to be the first afd that gets increasingly good-humoured and warm as it goes on?) -- Larry laptop 12:04, 14 January 2007 (UTC) reply

• Keep I can't say it any better than yukichiga did. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 11:55, 14 January 2007 (UTC) reply
• Delete as per WP:NOT. Gameguide/cruft. Everything is written from an in-universe perspective with no attempt at real world context or relevance (I mean the article has stuff like

"Ω ID is Ω Universitas in ID Mode. When in ID Mode the craft changes color from blue to red and projects out bright teal wings of energy similar to KOS-MOS' Third Armament. Ω ID is remarkably similar in appearance and purpose to Xenogears' Weltall -ID-, the powerful and destructive "alter-ego" of the game's central Gear, Weltall. It is accessible only near the end of the game after Citrine is defeated aboard the Durandal. She drops a key to the Weapons Development Area of the CAT Facility on Fifth Jerusalem, where the fight between KOS-MOS and Ω Res Novae was held. Revisiting the facility through the EVS, a player can enter the sealed-off section and fight both Ω Universitas and Ω ID.".

I can tell that the above section is a game guide hint, and that's about it.

Wikipedia is not a game guide site/fan site. There are plenty of other sites for that kind of thing. I'm very skeptical about the Zelda/Link items list too, though at least that has the decency not to stay in-universe and also not to allow excessive detail on each item Bwithh 13:00, 14 January 2007 (UTC) reply

• Comment - I've said it before and I'll say it again: objections concerning writing style (such as in-universe perspective) or portions of the article warrant a cleanup tag, not deletion. Basically, these are fixable problems. None of the issues you have raised are concerning the article's subject as a whole. (Except for "cruft", which isn't an argument so much as a way of saying " I don't like it.") -- Y | yukichigai ( _ramble argue ^check) 13:19, 14 January 2007 (UTC) reply

• • The fancruft argument is not an extension of WP:ILIKEIT, its an extension of WP:NOT. Even leaving that issue aside, the entire article needs massive cleanup and proper referencing, following WP:NOR, WP:FICT and WP:WAF. The guideline in WP:FICT that minor characters should be merged into one list should not be used as a loophole excuse to allow large unwieldy articles which are amassed collections of rambling no-context plot points. If the article was completely revamped according to the guidelines and standards, it would look nothing like how it does now. If you want to go ahead and totally stubify/rework the article, I'd be happy to reconsider my position. Bwithh 15:43, 14 January 2007 (UTC) reply

• The article is properly referenced, or rather has a very minimal threshold for referencing with regards to verifiability, as most (if not all) of the information is implicitly (or in some cases explicity) sourced to the primary source, i.e. the game(s) each section subject appears in. -- Y | yukichigai ( _ramble argue ^check) 22:21, 14 January 2007 (UTC) reply

• Keep per my plans to rework the Xenosaga articles in the future to decrease the amount of fan masturbation (of which I was guilty of when I first came here nearly two years ago). Let it stay until the plans are set in motion, so that we don't lose the edit history. As I point out on my userpage, don't rush to AfD articles if someone is planning on revamping the article(s) in question (as I stated on the CVG talkpage a day before the AfD was started). I'm not going to pull an all-nighter to work on these articles just because one is on AfD, either; I'll work on them, all right, but it'll have to be when I have the time to do it. If, two months from now, the articles are in the same state, I probably can't find the time to do it and therefore a deletion may be best. But let's be patient here. — Deckill e r 16:50, 14 January 2007 (UTC) reply

This is not a dig at you - but I've lost count of the amount of times that people have said "honest guv", I'll clean it up in the future. Once the AFD is over, nothing happens. -- Larry laptop 16:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC) reply

That's the problem; AfD is being done more and more incorrectly as of late. AfD should always be a last resort, not a wakeup call; I find it best to let users know that these kinds of articles are unacceptable on an encyclopedia, and then give them ample time to consider a plan and make a major turnaround (like the Final Fantasy pages). Unfortunately, I have been unable to realize my full plans for the Xenosaga pages because of other pressing matters (finsihing what I began at the Final Fantasy wikiproject, copyediting, reviving the star wars project and continuing star wars cleanup, working on an FA, and so on). Either way, the AfD has been launched, and all that is moot because editors are now going to be forced.

Another issue I've had for a while is the use of the term "gameguide". A gameguide is a walkthrough, describing how to do things in a game. This article describes plot elements from the series' storyline, for the most part. Therefore, it's not a gameguide, it's a violation of the "plot summary" clause in WP:NOT. Sourcing is not an issue, because the game provides both plot databases and even real-life influences! The article can easily be sourced with cites from the database (the game database is actually out of universe for the most part, making it reliable), and so on....IF the article were to stay in list form, which is pathetic because we don't need an inch by inch summary of every little element of Xenosaga. So, while the article has potential to remain in its current state with some cites and rewriting, that is not the idea.

The idea is to take all these organizations, terms, and locations, and merge it into one article describing the plot, another describing the technological aspects and their influences (japanese mecha, names deriving from myth, etc), and maybe a character list. However, with Xenosaga (which features more than 30 hours of cutscenes on the whole - that's more than 12 movies right there), such a heaping amount of information requires time to sort through what is important, what's not important, influences, and what is significant enough to note; not to mention finding the correct cites to avoid original interpretation, and keeping everything contained and succinct. This takes time, which a 5-day AfD doesn't provide.

However, just deleting this article is not a wise move, because some of this information may be kept (or at least the ideas), and edit histories are very important to me. Which is why I suggested keep and add numerous cleanup tags to designate that this article needs significant overhaul, compression, and merge into a more complete out of universe page - not simply delete and scare people off. Let editors realize what they're doing is wrong, and let them help fix it so that I'm not tackling yet another project alone. — Deckill e r 16:58, 15 January 2007 (UTC) reply

• Keep per others' arguments. -- Fang Aili ^talk 16:51, 14 January 2007 (UTC) reply
• Delete. Wikipedia isn't a game guide. Put this on a video game wiki, not here. RobJ1981 19:35, 14 January 2007 (UTC) reply
  • Comment This isn't a game guide. The information in it would be useless to beating the game, it doesn't tell me HOW to do anything. -- tjstrf talk 20:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC) reply
• Weak Keep it isn't a game guide and it can be verified. Since the list is a solution to the fancruft it is being AfDed for, give the editors time to revamp it, and if it doesn't happen, then AfD the article again. Darth griz ⁹⁸ 22:38, 14 January 2007 (UTC) reply
• Strong Keep This definitely should stay as many times throughout this series you will be confused in terms of the story, Wikipedia may not be a game guide but does talk about the story primarily, this is very helpful in trying to understand what is going on in the story.-- Jack Cox 23:38, 14 January 2007 (UTC) reply

This is what the guidelines at the gaming project says : A general rule of thumb to follow if unsure: if the content only has value to people actually playing the game, it's unsuitable. Keep in mind that video game articles should be readable and interesting to non-gamers; remember the bigger picture. Isn't what you described just that? -- Larry laptop 23:42, 14 January 2007 (UTC) reply

On the contrary, it's an explanation of the game's concepts for the non-player. Anyone who was actually in the process of playing the game would find the list of minimal benefit because they would already understand them. (Unless you have a shoddy memory or whatever, of course.) -- tjstrf talk 00:29, 15 January 2007 (UTC) reply

And a non-player would be interested in It is the form of Abel's consciousness in the "Imaginary Number Domain" while manifested into the "Real Number Domain" (similar to the Testaments). The Real Number Domain and the Imaginary Number Domain are the two planes of existence interwoven with each other in the Xenosaga Universe. The Real Number Domain is the plane of existence consisting of physical being and flesh (Material realm - All that we hear, see, smell, touch and taste) while the Imaginary Number Domain consists of consciousness, (Spiritual realm - emotions and heart etc). As the Ark is from the Imaginary Domain, it does not exist physically. Abel's Ark is the form of Abel's consciousness while Abel is the form of U-Do's physical being. They are referred to as "U-Do's eyes" because U-Do exists outside of the universe (in what's referred to as the "Higher Domain"). Abel's Ark and Abel are the way those within our universe (The "Lower Domain") perceive U-DO's observation. I see.... -- Larry laptop 00:31, 15 January 2007 (UTC) reply

How would it help me beat the game? It's not a game guide, it would never appear in a manual or FAQ because it has nothing to do with gameplay at all. The reason it exists is because the Xenosaga universe needs explained if you're going to be able to understand any of the other information about the game. Remember, comprehensiveness requires enough plot summary for the storyline to make sense to the reader. Complicated plots need a lot of plot summary to be comprehensible. -- tjstrf talk 07:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC) reply

Where did I mention anything connected to "help me beat the game"? in my comment? Besiding being rude, it's dishonest to answer comments with strawmen. -- Larry laptop 08:51, 15 January 2007 (UTC) reply

Game guide == guide to playing the game. This doesn't tell me how to play the game. There's no strawman there. Take a look at Game guide. It's a redirect to Strategy guide, which gives a list of commonly occurring contents of game guides. None of them match with this article at all. -- tjstrf talk 09:20, 15 January 2007 (UTC) reply

• Delete per WP:NOT#IINFO. How is this 'list of video game terms' not a video game guide? It is completely in-(Xenosaga)universe POV (Wikipedia is supposed to have a reality POV). Willing to reconsider if a secondary source establishing notability of terms with out-of-universe writing can be presented. -- maclean 01:23, 15 January 2007 (UTC) reply
  • On the plus side, there are no verifiability or sourcing problems, and if the text is accurate to the game it's automatically neutral because fictional universes are generally objective. -- tjstrf talk 07:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC) reply

• Strong Delete per nom. - ZakuSage 23:55, 15 January 2007 (UTC) reply

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Game-related-related deletions. -- SkierRMH 07:14, 15 January 2007 (UTC) reply
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletions. -- SkierRMH 07:15, 15 January 2007 (UTC) reply
• Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. PresN 19:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC) reply
• Keep: once again, AfD is not frelling cleanup! If I want to state the fact that Hamlet is a prince I don't need a third party to say so, I can just cite the original text. As for the in universe stuff, tag it as {{ in-universe}}. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 23:27, 17 January 2007 (UTC) reply
• Delete. The information is mostly fine, but the article title is annoying/misleading and smacks of WP:NOT (a dictionary). This would be much better suited for a gaming-specific wiki, or at least a sub-page of the main Xenosaga article. I might be more willing to keep if some broader notability were established (like cultural impact). -- Alan Au 18:43, 18 January 2007 (UTC) reply
  • Comment It IS a subpage of the main Xenosaga article. Mediawiki no longer supports the subpage format in namespace, and hasn't for years. So it may not be at the title Xenosaga/List of terms, but it is a subpage. -- tjstrf talk 19:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC) reply
• Keep per Deckiller's offer - if the article is still in its current state in a few months then feed it to the hobbitses, precious. There's a lot of material here, perhaps some could be transwikied, some deleted, some cleaned and merged etc. etc. Chucking the lot into the abyss when an offer of clean-up has been given would hardly be for the common good. QuagmireDog 19:25, 19 January 2007 (UTC) reply
• Keep per Deckiller's offer, at a minimum. - Penwhale | Blast the Penwhale 10:45, 21 January 2007 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.