- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Unlike previous similar discussions, some plausible evidence has been provided of sources examining the topic of the list; however, as best as I can tell, it seems limited to a single clearly reliable source, which is generally considered insufficient. Vanamonde ( Talk) 16:49, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
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- List of tallest buildings in Szczecin ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
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Per extensive recent consensus on these types of lists, they must meet WP:NLIST/ WP:GNG. Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of tallest buildings in Shreveport and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of tallest buildings in Montgomery, Alabama which both closed as clear delete, with closure statements refuting the argument that any other criteria takes precedence over notability for these lists.
The topic of tall buildings in Szczecin as a whole has no significant coverage that I found, so GNG/NLIST is not met. ♠ PMC♠ (talk) 04:36, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Architecture, Lists, and Poland. ♠ PMC♠ (talk) 04:36, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
- Weak keep. How's your Polish, PMC? The topic probably doesn't have any coverage in English, but I found some in Polish:
Gazeta Wyborcza is RS and
covered this. Not sure how reliable is this fansite about buildings in Poland but it covers the topic:
[1]. I don't think
Super Express is reliable (Polish Daily Mail...) but it hasn't been officially depraciated at RSN and it covered this too:
[2]. There are two or three similar rankings from local media. I'd say LISN is borderline met. --
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here
14:04, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
- I'm limited to English and the vagaries of Google Translate; languages are not my forte. I didn't come across the GW source, but it looks reliable to me and happy to accept it as prose coverage of the topic. However, I'm not willing to accept a fansite as reliable coverage; even if I was, that's just a ranking and not actually prose coverage of the topic, so I don't think it supports a claim to notability either way. As for Super Express, if you're describing something as unreliable on the face of things (even if it is not yet deprecated), then why would it be useful to support a claim to notability? I wouldn't accept anything the Daily Mail posted about the tallest buildings in London, either. The local news media rankings you mention - are those prose coverage, or just lists like the Urbanity fansite? If they're just lists, I wouldn't consider them significant coverage. ♠ PMC♠ (talk) 00:34, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- Comment. Note that Szczecin is twice the size of Shreveport and Montgomery, so I don't think any precedent has been set by the other two AfDs. The article needs to be judged entirely on its own merits. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
15:48, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
- Then I invite you to make a policy-based argument about the merits of this article, as Piotrus has. ♠
PMC♠
(talk)
00:34, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- I am neutral on whether it should be retained or not. I was merely challenging your apparent allegation that these AfDs set some sort of precedent for other cities. They do not. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
10:47, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- The community evidently disagrees with you, considering that so far, every single one I've PROD'd or AfD'd with this rationale has closed as delete (9 in total). ♠
PMC♠
(talk)
11:11, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- So far I see Greensboro, Beaumont, Charleston WV, Gwangju and Almaty. I don't think these can be compared to an historic European city like Szczecin. As I said, there is no precedent here. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
14:20, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- To be honest I have no idea. Population size, to me, is not a relevant consideration for these lists. My concern is coverage of the overall topic per
NLIST, and coverage is not necessarily correlated with population size. Conceivably one could have a city of a half million people spread out over miles of horrible suburban sprawl and nothing in the skyline taller than 100m. Alternately, you could have a small city of 20k with a ton of really tall buildings for some weird reason that has generated a lot of coverage. In every case so far, no one has been able to locate multiple significant prose sources about the topic, hence all of them being deleted. ♠
PMC♠
(talk)
14:35, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- As a side note, the above comment was apparently entirely revised while I was replying to it, making my reply appear incoherent. It
originally read "Have any of them been anywhere near the size of Szczecin? Or have they all been middling size cities like Shreveport and Montgomery? I would entirely agree that a list is not appropriate for cities of this size.", and that is what I was replying to. As for the current revision, I'm presently working from a list at
User:Premeditated Chaos/sandbox 4, which shows 9 redlinks from my PROD/AfDs. And again, historicity/age of city has nothing to do with notability for the topic of height of buildings. ♠
PMC♠
(talk)
05:42, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- No, it doesn't. But you just can't use an AfD on one city as a precedent for an AfD relating to a completely different city with no resemblance to the previous one. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
14:45, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- It's not one city, Necro, it's nine that I've done within the last month, and more to come. Montgomery was last year, so call it ten, and there's of course every AfD about these lists that's closed as delete within the past year or so that I haven't been a nom for. The clear community consensus is that these lists don't get a free pass because tall buildings are fun. They have to abide by notability standards just like anything else. ♠
PMC♠
(talk)
01:05, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- My point is merely that saying "because this (or these) were deleted at AfD then this one must be deleted too" is not valid. No precedent for deletion is established by unrelated AfDs (just being a list of buildings relating to a town is not close enough). Each article needs to be discussed on its own merits. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
10:14, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, each article should be discussed on its merits. We both agree on that, and again, I invite you to present any policy-based argument for keeping this list. Your repetitive argument that there is no such thing as precedent is an esoteric interpretation that the community at large does not agree with. This is evident from the multiple delete closures with clear consensus towards applying notability standards to these lists. ♠ PMC♠ (talk) 10:57, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- My point is merely that saying "because this (or these) were deleted at AfD then this one must be deleted too" is not valid. No precedent for deletion is established by unrelated AfDs (just being a list of buildings relating to a town is not close enough). Each article needs to be discussed on its own merits. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
10:14, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- It's not one city, Necro, it's nine that I've done within the last month, and more to come. Montgomery was last year, so call it ten, and there's of course every AfD about these lists that's closed as delete within the past year or so that I haven't been a nom for. The clear community consensus is that these lists don't get a free pass because tall buildings are fun. They have to abide by notability standards just like anything else. ♠
PMC♠
(talk)
01:05, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- No, it doesn't. But you just can't use an AfD on one city as a precedent for an AfD relating to a completely different city with no resemblance to the previous one. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
14:45, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- As a side note, the above comment was apparently entirely revised while I was replying to it, making my reply appear incoherent. It
originally read "Have any of them been anywhere near the size of Szczecin? Or have they all been middling size cities like Shreveport and Montgomery? I would entirely agree that a list is not appropriate for cities of this size.", and that is what I was replying to. As for the current revision, I'm presently working from a list at
User:Premeditated Chaos/sandbox 4, which shows 9 redlinks from my PROD/AfDs. And again, historicity/age of city has nothing to do with notability for the topic of height of buildings. ♠
PMC♠
(talk)
05:42, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- To be honest I have no idea. Population size, to me, is not a relevant consideration for these lists. My concern is coverage of the overall topic per
NLIST, and coverage is not necessarily correlated with population size. Conceivably one could have a city of a half million people spread out over miles of horrible suburban sprawl and nothing in the skyline taller than 100m. Alternately, you could have a small city of 20k with a ton of really tall buildings for some weird reason that has generated a lot of coverage. In every case so far, no one has been able to locate multiple significant prose sources about the topic, hence all of them being deleted. ♠
PMC♠
(talk)
14:35, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- So far I see Greensboro, Beaumont, Charleston WV, Gwangju and Almaty. I don't think these can be compared to an historic European city like Szczecin. As I said, there is no precedent here. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
14:20, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- The community evidently disagrees with you, considering that so far, every single one I've PROD'd or AfD'd with this rationale has closed as delete (9 in total). ♠
PMC♠
(talk)
11:11, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- I am neutral on whether it should be retained or not. I was merely challenging your apparent allegation that these AfDs set some sort of precedent for other cities. They do not. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
10:47, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- Then I invite you to make a policy-based argument about the merits of this article, as Piotrus has. ♠
PMC♠
(talk)
00:34, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 05:48, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- Delete 125m is the tallest building, and most aren't even historic or listed buildings in the local heritage register. I don't any of them as being very notable.
Oaktree b (
talk)
22:32, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- And out of the six buildings, only two have articles. I don't see the point of this list, it could be a sentence in the article about the city where we list the six buildings. Oaktree b ( talk) 22:33, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- Delete - This one made me hesitate and look into it more...there's some coverage mentioned above, but is it enough? This source seems fine enough. This one the reliability of it is questionable apparently, so not so much. This is a list without context or elaboration and apparently is a "fan site"; not sure about that part, but there doesn't appear to be any context for what it's displaying, so there's nothing to extract from it, no significant coverage. That gives us one good source discussing this list as a group. WP:NLIST directs us to WP:GNG, which requires significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources. This article only has one when it ideally should have at least three. I don't speak Polish so I can't really search for sources with any confidence, but if additional sources are found, as always I'd be more than happy to reassess. - Aoidh ( talk) 16:58, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.