The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Nominating this article for deletion discussion because it is unnecessary (see
Atlantic slave trade), limited in coverage, poorly formatted (the lists are in two different formats), incomplete (and may never be complete due to the very wide spread impact of the Atlantic slave trade), definitely overcategorization, too short, will quickly become obsolete (as statues are taken down on an almost daily basis), and also may be inciting illegal vandalism (I fear that this article may be used as a 'hit-list' for which statues to illegally vandalize next, for proof of this see the time at which the article was made, the topic of the article, the "see also" link to
Iconoclasm, and the many external links to non-objective sites which argue in favor of conducting these illegal activities).
Flyingfishee (
talk)
08:05, 14 June 2020 (UTC)reply
I'd also like to add the following reasons for deletion that probably should be considered in this discussion:
WP:LISTN,
WP:OR,
WP:TOOSOON,
WP:NPOV. I forgot to mention these in my first proposal but they've been brought up by other users.
Keep Just because you don't like something is not a reason for deletion, also how do you know how to use AfD for a brand new user account? Are you socking?
Govvy (
talk)
09:37, 14 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Keep: Article was only recently created so it is understandable that it is short, many articles are at first created as stubs to be added to, original nomination also mentions being "limited in coverage", if
List of Confederate monuments and memorials can exist then this has just as much a place on wikipedia. I do recognise this article may need to be split into separate articles if it becomes cumbersome though.
Melias C (
talk)
12:19, 14 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Keep. My response to Flyingfishee's arguments:
"unnecessary (see
Atlantic slave trade)" – the theme of the Atlantic slave trade article are not the existing public statues.
"limited in coverage", "incomplete", "may never be complete due to the very wide spread impact" – the article has just started and can be expanded. We also have
insects articles in Wikipedia although I doubt that Wikipedia will someday have an article for each of the more than one million species.
"poorly formatted" – not a reason for deletion, can be improved.
"statues are taken down on an almost daily basis" – I doubt this.
"Article may be used as a 'hit-list' for vandalization" – should not be a reason not to include it in Wikipedia.
KEEP No valid reason given to delete this. Perfectly valid topic and four of the five things listed have their own article.
DreamFocus13:53, 14 June 2020 (UTC)reply
delete or at least limit the scope, which at the moment is very broad. "Linked" is just too loose a word: I'm sure I'm somehow "linked" to the slave trade given that I have colonial ancestors who lived in North Carolina; likewise, virtually anyone with some connection to colonial exploration is so "linked". And it does read like a hit list, considering that a much more reasonable list would be of people involved directly in the slave trade.
Mangoe (
talk)
15:33, 14 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Comment To be honest, I think the nominator's onto something with the AfD nom. We need to keep this article, but as it stands it's malformed - what this should reflect is not
WP:OR of statues of people "linked" to the slave trade, but instead a reflection of the current event going on where society's looking at statues and removing problematic ones. For instance, at CfD, this would be deleted for being an overcategorisation. We need to rename this to something like "List of statues removed during the Black Lives Matter protests, 2020" and reformat the table so it's one giant table with a bunch of prose. I don't support keeping the article as-is, but it's so easily fixable it's not even worth voting to delete.
SportingFlyerT·C19:22, 14 June 2020 (UTC)reply
@
SportingFlyer: I could see where the nominator was coming from, I fixed the article to be better, but got reverted, not one person wanted to help, even when I posted to ANI it was all cold doors. The article is in a terrible state, but the subject is still notable.
Govvy (
talk)
19:51, 14 June 2020 (UTC)reply
I'd probably suggest a merge with that article, to be honest. This topic's notable because it's a current event. The issue with this topic as it is, it's functionally original research, but the current event definitely lends itself to notability. I'm not sure this gets kept three weeks ago. There's notes that the inclusion criteria is vague on the talk page, along with the Wilberforce statement below - if that statue's not included this would be a
WP:POV. I don't see any secondary sources discussing this topic as a whole, either, so it violates
WP:LISTN. I think merging's probably the easiest way to salvage this, since I think it pretty clearly violates
WP:OR and
WP:LISTN and vague/overcategorisation criteria (which I know isn't for lists but am still mentioning it) as it stands. The fact the original nominator didn't bring up any of those issues hasn't helped the discussion, either.
SportingFlyerT·C20:28, 14 June 2020 (UTC)reply
I think we should keep this article if we are going to completely overhaul it. The present content reeks of
original research so much that I am not sure whether
starting from scratch might be the best way to go forward. As far as I can tell, many of the statues listed are never brought up in this context and the references cited certainly do not indicate any such interpretations or concerns. The article should list only those statues which have been discussed in RS specifically in the context of the subject being involved in the slave trade. It should not list any statue of any person known to have taken any part in the slave trade.
Surtsicna (
talk)
20:46, 14 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose article in current form, possible delete without prejudice for recreation - TOOSOON might apply here. There seems to be increasing discussion specific to the UK about statues of prominent men who made lots of money off of the slave trade. This article should stick close to sources which discuss both the statues and and the fact the persons they represents owned slaves, and on the wider phenomenon of slave traders having statues. Right now it seems to be an indiscriminate list of people who have one source mentioning a connection to the slave trade and another completely different source evidencing they have a statue. My position might be "minimalist", but otherwise I think we are getting ahead of ourselves. -
Indy beetle (
talk)
22:16, 14 June 2020 (UTC)reply
If kept the article needs to be renamed and completely reworked. As stated above, "linked" is too vague a word to use. If someone made a statue of me it would be "linked" to the slave trade given that a few of my ancestors owned slaves before the
Haitian Revolution. buidhe19:01, 15 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Keep Obviously notable in light of current events, what other people choose to do with the content of the article is none of our concerns, we only need to make sure that article is neutral, accurate, and well-sourced. The article can certainly be improved on, but that is not a reason for deletion.
Hzh (
talk)
10:33, 16 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Keep. There's a fuckton of sources about this. Maybe the precise focus or presentation needs work, but we're not throwing this one in the dock any time soon. Guy (
help!)
23:51, 16 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Delete in current form. While it's definitely notable, the scope is way too broad and lends itself to
WP:OR and
WP:NPOV issues. I'd be much more partial to an article describing the current societal phenomenon of readressing who should be publicly commemorated with monuments, which would include a fully-sourced list of statues that have actually been brought up as problematic (i.e., notable public efforts to have a statue removed, or public actions in opposition to a statue). --
RickMorais (
talk)
23:53, 17 June 2020 (UTC)reply
I understand the keep arguments but the thing is that what we should keep about this is different content with a different title.—
S MarshallT/
C10:31, 18 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Agreed. This is notable not because secondary sources have covered the list comprehensively, but because it's functionally a current event, and that current event appears to be currently covered in another article. Nobody's addressed the
WP:OR/
WP:LISTN problems, either.
SportingFlyerT·C16:48, 19 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Keep This list can be edited to improve it. The general concept of the list is notable and according to
stand alone list guideline that is enough for the existence of the list. Discussions about what to include and which items need to be removed can occur during usual content discussions. Sydney Poore/
FloNightUser talk:FloNight02:09, 19 June 2020 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.