- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Sandstein 09:21, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
List of longest-living state leaders
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Redundant of Lists of state leaders by age, arbitrary inclusion criteria for a list of this size, trivial cross-categorization. Dronebogus ( talk) 09:21, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 10:19, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Lightburst ( talk) 14:40, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
- Delete per the nom. It fails WP:NOTDIRECTORY since the article is an unencyclopedic trivial cross-categorization of age and holding political office. The article is WP:OR that has a section with possible age ranges of individuals, and also fails WP:LISTN, since I was able to find no evidence independent reliable sources actually list any of these people in this manner. Newshunter12 ( talk) 21:17, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
- Delete as I said in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Italian presidents by longevity what matters is what the person did when they were in office, not what they did and how long they lived after retirement. There are many of these trivial "list of oldest oldies" pages all over Wikipedia now, and they just do not want to die. Maybe we need a page about the longest Afd surviving articles. These would qualify for sure. Ode+Joy ( talk) 23:08, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
- Keep Their age is mentioned in the news media when they run for office, that a notable aspect. A valid navigational list. Dream Focus 10:02, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
- But many things about state leaders are mentioned in the news. My concern is going down the trivia path. If we go that way, then how about other things mentioned n the news, e.g. number of girl friends? Would that be interesting? Encyclopedic? What is certain is that if that list is built Nano Malefico would come first, followed somewhat distantly by Slick Willie. Of course Hilary would not qualify because she was never head of state, and has had very few girl friends for all we know. But seriously an encyclopedia should not include these types of things. Ode+Joy ( talk) 15:54, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
- Delete WP:NOT and to what end? List of longest-living Olympians? List of longest-living millionaires? List of longest-living artists? List of longest-living zoo animals? List of longest-living members of Al-Queda? I mean, I'm genuinely asking, to what end? -- PerpetuityGrat ( talk) 20:13, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
- I can see Your point, but I politely disagree. You are asking: "to what end?" Of course, this is just my opinion, but I think the fine line would be "if all subjects on the list are notable according to the Wiki standards". For example, all Olympic competitors would be notable and I don't see a problem with such a list being created on the Wikipedia (it already exists here:
[1] ). On the other hand, millionaires, artists, terrorists/guerilla fighters are not notable by default and those lists would be useful only in specific cases, such as oldest Olympians, Academy Award winners, Nobel prize winners, etc. Contrary to articles such as "oldest surviving [insert]", lists like this would never become empty.
StjepanHR (
talk)
20:31, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
- Ok, those lists were examples. But by your logic then we need to create List of longest-living Olympians, List of longest-living Academy Award winners, List of longest-living Nobel prize winners, etc. I'm using WP:NOT as my base for rationale here, to delete this list. Again, where do we draw the line? -- PerpetuityGrat ( talk) 20:58, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
- I can see Your point, but I politely disagree. You are asking: "to what end?" Of course, this is just my opinion, but I think the fine line would be "if all subjects on the list are notable according to the Wiki standards". For example, all Olympic competitors would be notable and I don't see a problem with such a list being created on the Wikipedia (it already exists here:
[1] ). On the other hand, millionaires, artists, terrorists/guerilla fighters are not notable by default and those lists would be useful only in specific cases, such as oldest Olympians, Academy Award winners, Nobel prize winners, etc. Contrary to articles such as "oldest surviving [insert]", lists like this would never become empty.
StjepanHR (
talk)
20:31, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
- @ PerpetuityGrat: We draw the line through these lists, and cross them out. I looked up the term junk and WP:Junk came up. It is an apt description of these lists. Ode+Joy ( talk) 21:18, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
- Strong keep - as steted in the first discussion on the proposed removal of this page, this is a topic that has enough media (and even scientific) appeal. StjepanHR ( talk) 20:31, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
- Delete Ignoring the keeps (which, unlike what the last one claims to be, are pathetically weak), which are essentially WP:ILIKEIT (and, in the previous AfD, assertions without evidence that it meets LISTN or some other criteria), this is fundamentally unencyclopedic: it is WP:NOTSTATS trivia based on a trivial cross-categorisation of two unrelated characteristic ( WP:NOTDIR), that of "state leader" and "age at death", based on a compilation which I can't seem to be able to find in anything but Wikipedia mirrors, thus also making it also WP:OR by definition as something first published on Wikipedia. RandomCanadian ( talk / contribs) 03:21, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- Delete - If for no other reason then the potential dispute over how to present Elizabeth II's entry. Assuming she lives long enough to make the list. GoodDay ( talk) 13:58, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- Delete. Longest serving yes, longest living, no. Chau Sen Cocsal Chhum is the record holder. He was the prime minister of Cambodia for two lousy months, then lived for another 46 years. What does the one have to do with the other? Clarityfiend ( talk) 06:37, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
- Keep This article is really very interesting for the reader and much work has been done on it, with credible sources validating the quoted ages. The existence of the page helps study on political leaders and can serve as a redirection page for the visitors of wikipedia to see the whole pages of these political leaders.
User:Megap222
- So, it's interesting so we should keep it? Not really a solid argument. Sleeper? -- PerpetuityGrat ( talk) 22:18, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
- Delete - A trivial cross-categorization that really has no reliable sources actually discussing the topic. There may be sources that discuss the specific ages of some of the individual members, but there are none that actually demonstrate why the overall topic of how long state leaders live is notable. Rorshacma ( talk) 16:07, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- Delete as fails
WP:LISTN, is a non-notable cross-categorisation and
WP:TRIVIA. Not one source in the article, a
WP:BEFORE doesn't reveal anything and no one in the discussion has provided anything discussing this cross-category. Ultimately this is just trying to tie together an inherently notable thing (being a state leader) with something not inherently notable (longevity). Sources do speak about the oldest current state leaders or state leaders who were remarkably elderly while in office but not this topic. Not notable and not even interesting.
Vladimir.copic (
talk)
23:39, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- Well it’s clearly an endless source of fascination to gerontology obsessives for reasons they can state in only the vaguest of terms, but that’s not the point. Dronebogus ( talk) 02:19, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
- Some of these gerontological lists are interesting (to me) albeit completely unencyclopedic. But I am struggling with the interest in things like Constantine Kollias being somewhere between 70th-90th longest lived state leader. Vladimir.copic ( talk) 03:44, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
- Redirect to Lists of state leaders by age/keep through history Information is useful, we should preserve the data through the history for the people interested in looking up this subject even if the article isn't worth it to keep. -- Thebirdlover ( talk) 03:23, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
- Lists of state leaders by age is an even worse page for WP:OR by the looks of it. Vladimir.copic ( talk) 03:44, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.