- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep ( WP:SNOW). It's WP:COMMONSENSE that this list will have many entries over the next decade (starting a few days ago), and it's already gotten its first entry by now. – sgeureka t• c 09:52, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
List of dramatic television series with LGBT characters: 2020s
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- List of dramatic television series with LGBT characters: 2020s ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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This is a list with no items to date. As per WP:CRYSTAL we should not have articles about things which have not yet happened. Although it is likely, there is no way to know for sure if there will in fact be any such shows during the 2020s. DES (talk) DESiegel Contribs 08:36, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. DES (talk) DESiegel Contribs 08:36, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 08:38, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- Note: WikiProject LGBT studies has been notified of this discussion. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 10:50, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- "
Although it is likely, there is no way to know for sure if there will in fact be any such shows during the 2020s.
"
Keep. We do not need a "crystal ball" to know that in the 2020s there will be dramatic television series that include Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Non-binary, Pansexual, etc., characters. Some will be lead (main), some will be supporting (recurring), some will be guests -- but there will, indeed, be LGBT+ characters in dramatic television series. There were in the 1970s-2000s, there were in the 2010s, there will be in the 2020s (of which today is just its fourth day out of 3,650 days and in its first week two American dramatic series have premiered, with more to come, including non-American). In this matter, Wikipedia bureaucracy is a chokehold. (P.S. I just added its first entry.) Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 10:40, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- Keep per common sense ( WP:IAR). Pyxis Solitary is right that bureaucracy will do us no good here. Perhaps this isn't the right place to note this, but per WP:IINFO and as the list of LGBT+ characters hopefully becomes increasingly numerous, I wonder if we should restrict the criteria of this list to, say, main cast members (with exceptions where sensible e.g. episodes of anthology series like San Junipero where there is no main cast). This wouldn't affect the current entry in the list. — Bilorv ( talk) 12:25, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- The frequency of an LGBT+ character being a lead in a TV series is rare compared to that of an LGBT+ character being a recurring (supporting) one in it. There is no widespread acceptance of LGBT+ people on television, regardless of the few that may appear in American, Canadian, and British shows. In 2018 there were
495 original scripted broadcast, cable, and streaming series premieres. But if you look at the 2010s list, of the dramatic series that premiered in 2018 only 56 series included an LGBT+ character — and they weren't all main.
Pyxis Solitary
(yak). L not Q.
03:36, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah, I understand this, but if you extrapolate that, at 2018's rate this list will be over 500 entries long and I think that's too much. If we could restrict it a bit by raising the bar for inclusion in the list, then it seems to me that we'll have a more manageable and meaningful list. —
Bilorv (
talk)
11:57, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- It will probably be as long as the list for the 2010s. Considering that an editor has to have seen a character in a network and web television series to include it in the list, I don't think there will be "500 entries" or more in it. Adding a series to the list happens after someone interested in the list has watched a series and seen an LGBT+ character in it. Besides, if the list were to become too long it can be split, as done with the original list in September 2019, which was one single list titled
List of dramatic television series with LGBT characters (split into two lists: 1970s–2000s and 2010s).
Pyxis Solitary
(yak). L not Q.
23:28, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
Adding a series to the list happens after someone interested in the list has watched a series and seen an LGBT+ character in it.
This fails WP:LISTCRITERIA, but it's also just not true. If I found an RS which listed the "50 Best LGBT Characters of the 2020s" then I could add them all to the list, with a reference. If the list is so large in scope that we will not come close to including most of the content which fits its criteria then this is more evidence that the scope is a problem. But more importantly, the list is not for our editors but for our readers. It seems to me that a list including only main cast would filter out a lot of less significant cases, and yield a list that it is actually possible for us to create in full. A list should have some purpose and if the purpose is to document LGBT history or list significant media representation then we should be trying to create a list with the most significant representation, not a lengthy list in many parts created at the whim of our editorial selection bias, which no reader would read in full. — Bilorv ( talk) 01:00, 6 January 2020 (UTC)- I think you should put a little more trust in the editors who have faithfully edited and maintained the first two versions of this list. The list's purpose is obvious. We provide readers information about content in television series that they may not be aware of if they did not, themselves, watch those series. "Significant representation" is in the eye of the beholder, and if all you focus on is what's platinum, you miss the importance of the other minerals that contribute to making it special. In any event, this discussion is about deleting/keeping the list. It is not about personal opinions about what the list should reflect. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 04:27, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
- It will probably be as long as the list for the 2010s. Considering that an editor has to have seen a character in a network and web television series to include it in the list, I don't think there will be "500 entries" or more in it. Adding a series to the list happens after someone interested in the list has watched a series and seen an LGBT+ character in it. Besides, if the list were to become too long it can be split, as done with the original list in September 2019, which was one single list titled
List of dramatic television series with LGBT characters (split into two lists: 1970s–2000s and 2010s).
Pyxis Solitary
(yak). L not Q.
23:28, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah, I understand this, but if you extrapolate that, at 2018's rate this list will be over 500 entries long and I think that's too much. If we could restrict it a bit by raising the bar for inclusion in the list, then it seems to me that we'll have a more manageable and meaningful list. —
Bilorv (
talk)
11:57, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- The frequency of an LGBT+ character being a lead in a TV series is rare compared to that of an LGBT+ character being a recurring (supporting) one in it. There is no widespread acceptance of LGBT+ people on television, regardless of the few that may appear in American, Canadian, and British shows. In 2018 there were
495 original scripted broadcast, cable, and streaming series premieres. But if you look at the 2010s list, of the dramatic series that premiered in 2018 only 56 series included an LGBT+ character — and they weren't all main.
Pyxis Solitary
(yak). L not Q.
03:36, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Keep per above. Seems like common sense to me. In fact, the list is already starting to be populated... — Hunter Kahn 13:38, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- Keep per previous comments. = paul2520 ( talk) 14:55, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- Snow keep, per above, it takes some tricky mental ingenuity to imagine a landscape suddenly devoid of LGBTQ characters. Gleeanon409 ( talk) 23:20, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- Keep: I'm sure there will be plenty more examples to add as the decade progresses. I added some see also pages of programs debuting in 2020 and 2021 if anyone wants to dig through them and see if there's any more characters that fit the criteria. TomCat4680 ( talk) 01:37, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Keep The nom thinking there will be no LGBTQ+ characters existing in any show airing from 2020-2029 is bewildering, to say the least. We already have one four days in, and we're not even halfway through the first season of The L Word: Generation Q, which will likely introduce some new characters in the next four episodes and destroy the nom's hypothesis rather easily. Nate • ( chatter) 02:46, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Keep per all the above. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 10:01, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.