- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Geschichte ( talk) 08:42, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
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- List of aviation accidents and incidents in fiction ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
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This is a list of random examples with only unsourced information or primary information. The few sources are only discussing the concept in passing, or recapping WP:PLOT information, which is insufficient to meet WP:NOT. Maybe an article about the overall concept of fictional aircraft could be notable, but "list of incidents" is an WP:INDISCRIMINATE topic that fundamentally cannot meet WP:LISTN or WP:GNG due to a lack of sources describing this concept in direct detail. Jontesta ( talk) 19:40, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Jontesta ( talk) 19:40, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- Keep. The nomination is inaccurate, as there are secondary sources in the article on the general topic of fictional depictions of air crashes, e.g., James H. Farmer, Broken Wings: Hollywood's Air Crashes (1984). The nomination references "the overall concept of fictional aircraft", which is not at all what this article is about (the crashes are fictional, the aircraft are real), frankly suggesting a misreading of the intent here. BD2412 T 19:44, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- Delete Per
WP:OLIST and
WP:INDISCRIMINATE, as a trivial list. We don't have
List of fictional car accidents or
List of fictional falling down stairs incidents and this is equally indiscriminate. It's trivia and that is all, more fitting for a TVTropes list.
ZXCVBNM (
TALK)
20:25, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- We have an entire
Category:Films about aviation accidents or incidents. We don't have a comparable
Category:Films about falling down stairs incidents, nor do there appear to be any books or articles about how falling down stairs is depicted in fiction.
BD2412
T
20:50, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- A film being about an aviation accident is different than an incident in a work of fiction. One is defining, the other is trivia. It's the difference between, say, an entire book about a plane hijacking, or
BioShock, where the plane crash happens in the first 5 minutes and plays a rather minor role in the story beyond establishing it.
ZXCVBNM (
TALK)
21:19, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not disagreeing with you, but it's worth noting that Bioshock isn't included in this list. All of the listed items are fictional accounts where the incident itself is central to the work, and defines it. The film category alone is not broad enough because there are also television episodes and other media with a comparatively central depiction of a plane crash or the consequences of such an event. Perhaps the solution here is to rename the article to encompass the central role that air crashes can play in fiction, or to move this to
Aviation accidents and incidents in fiction and make the list secondary to discussion of the genre.
BD2412
T
21:28, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- If you wish to make that article feel free, but it would be a complete 100% rewrite and therefore has no bearing on this AfD. I don't think I'd vote to delete a well written article on the concept of aviation accidents in fiction, but that's not this article. ZXCVBNM ( TALK) 21:45, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not disagreeing with you, but it's worth noting that Bioshock isn't included in this list. All of the listed items are fictional accounts where the incident itself is central to the work, and defines it. The film category alone is not broad enough because there are also television episodes and other media with a comparatively central depiction of a plane crash or the consequences of such an event. Perhaps the solution here is to rename the article to encompass the central role that air crashes can play in fiction, or to move this to
Aviation accidents and incidents in fiction and make the list secondary to discussion of the genre.
BD2412
T
21:28, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- A film being about an aviation accident is different than an incident in a work of fiction. One is defining, the other is trivia. It's the difference between, say, an entire book about a plane hijacking, or
BioShock, where the plane crash happens in the first 5 minutes and plays a rather minor role in the story beyond establishing it.
ZXCVBNM (
TALK)
21:19, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- We have an entire
Category:Films about aviation accidents or incidents. We don't have a comparable
Category:Films about falling down stairs incidents, nor do there appear to be any books or articles about how falling down stairs is depicted in fiction.
BD2412
T
20:50, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 21:32, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- Delete as indiscriminate. We don't have List of bank robberies in fiction either, despite having a Category:Bank robbery in fiction, because it's just too commonplace a plot device. Per BD2412, a single article is fine, but not a list. Clarityfiend ( talk) 23:32, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- Delete Previously deleted under the title List of fictional aviation accidents and incidents, but not quite similar enough for G4 to apply. – LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄) 02:33, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
- I have noticed that such articles very rarely provide useful, encyclopedic, information about their content. When I saw this title I immediately thought of
Lord of the Flies, but was shocked to find that one of the most notable works of fiction that used an aviation accident or incident as a major plot point didn't even get a mention in this article. The topic of this article is pretty clearly notable, but why is our coverage of such elements of fiction so poor? If it was half-way decent then we wouldn't get such deletion nominations.
Phil Bridger (
talk)
22:04, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
- @
Phil Bridger: Ideally, editors expressing the concern you have raised would improve the articles in the directions proposed.
BD2412
T
22:44, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree with you, and have said that this topic is pretty clearly notable, but we don't live in an ideal universe where everyone has infinite time to pursue all of their interests. I choose to spend the limited time that I give to Wikipedia on other topics.
Phil Bridger (
talk)
22:08, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
- @ Phil Bridger: I have added a paragraph on Lord of the Flies, with discussion of the implausibility of the plane crash described. BD2412 T 22:37, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree with you, and have said that this topic is pretty clearly notable, but we don't live in an ideal universe where everyone has infinite time to pursue all of their interests. I choose to spend the limited time that I give to Wikipedia on other topics.
Phil Bridger (
talk)
22:08, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
- @
Phil Bridger: Ideally, editors expressing the concern you have raised would improve the articles in the directions proposed.
BD2412
T
22:44, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
- Delete. I don't see what makes this anything more than a collection of WP:TRIVIA. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:01, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
- Delete as failing WP:NLIST and WP:NOT. Too broad and vague to be discriminate, and Wikipedia articles are WP:NOT supposed to be compilations of WP:PLOT details. No prejudice against creating a new article that focuses on this as a broad topic, instead of a list of unreferenced plots. Shooterwalker ( talk) 17:37, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.