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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Three-way split between keep, merge and delete, each with good arguments. I'd normally go for merge as a compromise, but here there are also valid arguments against a merger given the length of the target article. Sandstein 07:04, 25 April 2021 (UTC) reply

List of Liverpool F.C. matches in international competitions

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List of Liverpool F.C. matches in international competitions (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
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Unnecessary page which is just a collection of matches Liverpool played in European competition. We already have an article detailing Liverpool's record in Europe. We don't need to include every single match they've played in Europe because the page is an overview and not a collection of stats. That article has been through the featured article process where it was decided such tables are superfluous. The reader can learn what happened in those matches from the equivalent season articles. Wikipedia is not a collection of stats, so this page is unnecessary and should be deleted. NapHit ( talk) 16:00, 17 April 2021 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 16:52, 17 April 2021 (UTC) reply
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 16:52, 17 April 2021 (UTC) reply
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 16:52, 17 April 2021 (UTC) reply
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 17:08, 17 April 2021 (UTC) reply
  • That's another argument entirely, and if we accept it, we're going to have to do a lot of work. These sorts of tables are the usual way by which we present information about matches played in Europe, whether it be Örebro SK, Lokomotiva Zagreb, Manchester United, or in the case of FC Anzhi Makhachkala, as a collapse-able table (which would be my suggestion if this is up-merged), clearly showing they're not WP:CRUFT (either because the entire topic is unknown outside fan circles, or because too much detail is present that will bore, distract or confuse a non-fan – neither of these are true - the only reason the second might be satisfied is because there's so much of information here in this specific article), but rather an integral way of displaying encyclopaedic data related to European football matches. SportingFlyer T· C 22:27, 17 April 2021 (UTC) reply
  • I also want to push back on the argument "it was decided that such tables were superfluous." This does not appear to be consensus, but the nom's personal opinion. The matches table was removed from the original article in August 2010 by the AfD nom, but the first Good Article assessment was in October 2010, and there's no consensus on the talk page about its inclusion/removal. In fact, one of the good article reviewers even suggested adding this table here (point #8), but NapHit unilaterally decided the table wasn't worth including [1]. Presenting this as a consensus against the table doesn't appear to be a correct analysis. SportingFlyer T· C 14:17, 18 April 2021 (UTC) reply
A collapsible table fails MOS:DTT and WP:ACCESS, so that's a non-starter. It's not another argument, it's relevant to this point. Should we include these tables just because we can. In the case of smaller European clubs, I think there is a case for including them. In the case of Liverpool, I don't think there is a case for including in the parent article. It would become too long and unruly. The question then becomes, are these lists worthy of standing alone? As Koncorde mentions below, what then stops you from creating a list of domestic league and cup matches? The reviewer on the GA didn't push back when I said we didn't need the table. Nor did anyone advocate for the table's inclusion during the featured article process. The same was the case with the Arsenal article. That's a consensus on how the articles should be structured. This is why we have season articles. All the information is included in self-contained summaries. NapHit ( talk) 20:24, 18 April 2021 (UTC) reply
WP:ACCESS doesn't specifically fail them, but does mention that if length is a concern that the topic be moved under a different heading or split. We also have articles for lists of domestic league and cup matches: they're in the specific season articles for each club. A table representing an overview of European competitions is clearly different, however, given how we present the information in other articles, and the Liverpool article may even be at a stage where the European statistics could qualify for a stand-alone article, including this table. SportingFlyer T· C 00:26, 19 April 2021 (UTC) reply
So should there be a list for List of Liverpool F.C. matches in Domestic Cups and List of Liverpool F.C. matches in Domestic Leagues? There is a reason we use Season articles as self contained summaries. Koncorde ( talk) 19:29, 18 April 2021 (UTC) reply
No, but we also don't have a completely separate article for those competitions, either. SportingFlyer T· C 20:16, 18 April 2021 (UTC) reply
This is a giant rabbit hole if we go down this road. That's why we have the season articles. Liverpool could be playing in Europe for another 100 years, so you'd have a list which is even longer and unruly as you add every match they've ever played. The season articles are much easier to keep under control. We have summaries by competition, club and country in the European article, that's more than enough. The only other option would be to split the current list up into by year lists, along the lines of the national team results lists we have. But, it's arguable whether this has any encyclopedic merit. NapHit ( talk) 20:24, 18 April 2021 (UTC) reply
Per NH. A list doesn't require there to be a separate article to be dependent upon (they can just refer to the main Club article if so). However all the arguments in support of this list are in support of all lists of results compiled. As you said, it would be quicker and easier to read all their results on one page. Koncorde ( talk) 23:41, 18 April 2021 (UTC) reply
The list isn't actually dependent on a separate article, though it makes sense as its own article as a proper WP:SPLIT. We could easily include the information, hatted, in the main article. SportingFlyer T· C 00:14, 19 April 2021 (UTC) reply
O really, you're going that route, do you want to delete England national football team results (1872–1899) and all the rest that follow also? It really is no different, articles can be split. We cover European results, league, cup, you name it. It's all covered somewhere, at times in multiple places, this is you singling out one article, which is done on multiple other articles. FC Barcelona in international football shows a load of results, but has no-where near the same quality as the Liverpool in Europe. You might as well drive down a road the wrong way! Govvy ( talk) 22:02, 18 April 2021 (UTC) reply
And the Barcelona article is a shit-show too. No consistent format, no consistent structure etc. WP:OTHERSTUFF isn't a defence, particularly if you raise an article that is probably even more guilty of crimes against formatting and readability. Koncorde ( talk) 23:41, 18 April 2021 (UTC) reply
The entirety of that Barcelona article is a dog's breakfast, even the results tables aren't properly formatted. SportingFlyer T· C 00:14, 19 April 2021 (UTC) reply
Nowhere did I say I want to delete the national football team results. I don't think you understood my point. I'm questioning whether these results merit their own article. Like Koncorde states, if we create separate European results lists, what's stopping us from creating domestic results lists? Are these lists encyclopedic? Just because they are currently on here, doesn't necessarily mean they are. The Barcelona article you mention should be brought up to the standard of the Liverpool and Arsenal article. Doing that would mean the list of results would have to be either deleted or split due to its length. Personally, I don't think we need separate lists when we have season articles for the clubs and the competition. The European articles are a side point of the history of the teams. There probably needs to be a discussion at WP:FOOTY about this, as the issue is bigger than one list or article. 11:35, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete this subject is covered in a much better way at the FL Liverpool F.C. in international football, and we don't need an WP:INDISCRIMINATE list of every match they played in these competitions. Usually I would say merge to that article, but there isn't any content here that would benefit that (really good) FL. Joseph 2302 ( talk) 15:44, 19 April 2021 (UTC) reply
  • Keep As one of the foremost clubs in the sport, with a significant history international competition, this level of detail is within the scope of Wikipedia per Wikipedia:Five pillars – specifically, this is exactly the kind of material you would expect to see in a specialised football almanac. The nomination says "Wikipedia is not a collection of stats", but that is untrue – the five pillars say Wikipedia is not an "indiscriminate collection of information". This information is highly discriminate with a clear scope and focus, and Liverpool F.C. matches in international competition is clearly a notable topic. I'm happy for the material to be accommodated at Liverpool F.C. in international football, though due to the length of both this list and the article, I think the stand-alone list approach is preferable. SFB 16:16, 19 April 2021 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Liverpool_F.C._matches_in_international_competitions&oldid=1019757250"

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