- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. The principle argument from the delete camp was that the article is largely unsourced, and since WP:V is one of our main content policies, this is a strong policy based argument. The keep camp have argued that character lists are a normal WP:SPLIT for these kinds of articles. However, no evidence was offered that the list could eventually be sourced, except perhaps for one or two of the main characters, so this argument carries less weight. The decision is therefore to delete but with no restriction on recreation of a properly sourced page. Spinning Spark 15:59, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
List of Killzone characters
- List of Killzone characters ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find video game sources: "Killzone" characters – news · newspapers · books · scholar · JSTOR · free images · free news sources · TWL · NYT · WP reference · VG/RS · VG/RL · WPVG/Talk)
Fails WP:GNG, sources listed are voice actor page at IGN, a gameguide, Killzone official website and a PlayStation Magazine preview as a source for another voice actor. A list of characters described from an in-universe point-of-view fails WP:VGSCOPE. Soetermans. T / C 09:00, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
- Delete per Soetermans: With no reliable sources dedicated to the cast, the list fails GNG. If an article for one of the main characters is possible, I'd be fine with that, but this list is entirely original research and nothing would be lost. ~ Mable ( chat) 09:10, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
- Delete as per nom. Aoziwe ( talk) 13:12, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
- Neutral. It's a valid
WP:SPLIT from
Killzone (series) article, if we base on existing character list precedent and rationale. There also definitely is content for characters, like
[1]
[2], but none of it has been included yet and would likely not cover all the minor ones. At present the article is just WP:GAMECRUFT and WP:PLOT. — HELLKNOWZ ▎ TALK 13:55, 15 February 2016 (UTC)- Comment I'm confused, what does "Sony was worried about a female protagonist in Killzone dev's new IP" say about Killzone characters? The article is about Guerrila Games' upcoming game Horizon: Zero Dawn. -- Soetermans. T / C 16:35, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. /wiae /tlk 14:18, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions. /wiae /tlk 14:18, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
- Agreed with Hellknowz in the entirety of his comment, but I'll go with a keep, since per WP:SPLIT/ WP:LISTN this list seems notable. This is how we typically deal with a series-worth of fictional elements and (especially) characters. Recommend excising the minor characters in the list. -- Izno ( talk) 14:26, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal ( talk) 16:01, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
- Keep as per
Izno's comment about article. It's (somewhat) notable as well!!! --:
SGCommand (
Talk to Me ·
contribs · 16:22, 15 February 2016 (UTC))
- How is it notable? -- Soetermans. T / C 08:03, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
- Keep as typical game character list.
VMS Mosaic (
talk) 05:17, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
- This article has four references: two for voice actors, a gameguide and the official Killzone website.
List of The Last of Us characters or
List of characters in the Metal Gear series have lots of independent, reliable sources. What exactly is a "typical game character list"? --
Soetermans.
T /
C 08:03, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
- For works of fiction spanning multiple works (not just video games) we are generally lenient on notable or well-sourced lists of characters that are common to those works, as long as it avoids going too much into fine details, treating the list as a summary-style split from the main series article. We would hope in time more sources can be added and the focus tuned towards secondary coverage about the characters, but that's something that will take time. There's definitely cleanup needed to make this more suitable given this purpose, but its basically akin to how the Pokemon lists were crafted. --
MASEM (
t) 00:17, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
- Sure, there's no deadline, but from the WP:VG/RS custom Google search engine, I haven't seen any sources mentioning the characters in such a way that would merit its own article. The example Hellknowz brought up can easily be part of its respective article. -- Soetermans. T / C 07:46, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
- I don't believe the notability of fictional characters should be
inherited from the franchise they are from. Does it matter that there are multiple notable Killzone games if the characters never get discussed in detail by sources, outside of context-delivering plot synopses? ~
Mable (
chat) 15:13, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
- I think Masem meant that character lists are valid
WP:CFORKs when sufficient sources exists for the content. The list article is not necessarily independently notable, because it's an editorial decision to keep the list separate from the main article rather than based on a stand-alone topic. The downside is that many such lists end up way worse quality than the parent article. —
HELLKNOWZ ▎
TALK 16:06, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
-
WP:CSC criteria #2 would cover this list. Including it in the parent article would be a case of
WP:TOOLONG.
VMS Mosaic (
talk) 20:13, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
- I don't think we're suggesting a merge - I think we're suggesting a total deletion. This list would fall under the second category: "Every entry in the list fails the notability criteria," which would be fine, if most items in the list could at least be sourced to reliable sources, which doesn't seem to be possible here. ~
Mable (
chat) 21:04, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
- Exactly. WP:NOTPLOT: "Summary-only descriptions of works. Wikipedia treats fiction in an encyclopedic manner, discussing the reception and significance of notable works in addition to a concise summary." This article mentions character traits without sourcing and repeats their actions and motives, which are already described in the plot sections of the games' individual article. -- Soetermans. T / C 21:53, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
- I don't think we're suggesting a merge - I think we're suggesting a total deletion. This list would fall under the second category: "Every entry in the list fails the notability criteria," which would be fine, if most items in the list could at least be sourced to reliable sources, which doesn't seem to be possible here. ~
Mable (
chat) 21:04, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
-
WP:CSC criteria #2 would cover this list. Including it in the parent article would be a case of
WP:TOOLONG.
VMS Mosaic (
talk) 20:13, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
- I think Masem meant that character lists are valid
WP:CFORKs when sufficient sources exists for the content. The list article is not necessarily independently notable, because it's an editorial decision to keep the list separate from the main article rather than based on a stand-alone topic. The downside is that many such lists end up way worse quality than the parent article. —
HELLKNOWZ ▎
TALK 16:06, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
- For works of fiction spanning multiple works (not just video games) we are generally lenient on notable or well-sourced lists of characters that are common to those works, as long as it avoids going too much into fine details, treating the list as a summary-style split from the main series article. We would hope in time more sources can be added and the focus tuned towards secondary coverage about the characters, but that's something that will take time. There's definitely cleanup needed to make this more suitable given this purpose, but its basically akin to how the Pokemon lists were crafted. --
MASEM (
t) 00:17, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
- This article has four references: two for voice actors, a gameguide and the official Killzone website.
List of The Last of Us characters or
List of characters in the Metal Gear series have lots of independent, reliable sources. What exactly is a "typical game character list"? --
Soetermans.
T /
C 08:03, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
- Merge to Killzone (series). This would be a "valid split" if and when it overgrew the capacity to be summarized succinctly within its parent article. I certainly see a fair (but not overwhelming) amount of sources that address the characters of the series, but I'm not convinced that the topic needs its own page to sufficiently address the content of those sources. Summarize from secondary sources as necessary in the series article, and split out summary style if and when the content necessitates such a move. czar 14:26, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
- Delete as gamecruft better suited for specialist wikis. In technical terms, almost entirely unsourced ( WP:V), and no indication that the topic as such (the characters from this game taken as a whole, not the game, and not individual characters) is notable as reflected in coverage of that topic in reliable sources. Sandstein 20:06, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 20:19, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 20:19, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
- Comment If a serious pruner and sourcer is found then this might be worth keeping as well. Currently it looks ugly but if it's concised to short descriptions with refs behind each one then it's very much earned its stay. Most of the plot needs to go. --
Mr. Magoo (
talk) 22:43, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
- But what is there to keep? I mean, I looked through WP:VG/RS for some sources, and I couldn't find any in-depth pieces. If we'd remove all the plot right now, the article would be empty. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 14:06, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — UY Scuti Talk 16:59, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — UY Scuti Talk 16:59, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- Redirect to Kill zone (series) as there are no serious needs for deletion and this is obviously best connected to the series itself. SwisterTwister talk 05:12, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
- Redirecting without merging it an article titled "List of Killzone characters" is utterly nonsense. Readers who search informations about the characters would be redirected to an article which barely mention a couple of them. Cavarrone 07:29, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
- Leaning to keep, lists of main characters of notable series are a common practice in WP and we are plenty of precedents for that. Actually the content is just a legitimate and reasonable split (because of its length) from its parent article, see
WP:SPLIT. I am generally for merging this sort of articles, but even trimming the contents, in this case the parent article would be unreadable and overlong. See also
Wikipedia:Summary style#Basic technique.
Cavarrone 07:29, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
- It's based upon WP:VGSCOPE No. 6, a recent development. In a nutshell, a lot of video game character lists just retell the story from the character's point of view, which makes it WP:INUNIVERSE, while the possible development and reception from a character would be more informative. See for instance List of The Last of Us characters, which details all that kind of information. I've looked through WP:VG/RS and I can't find any reliable source that mention the cultural impact of the Killzone characters or interviews or pieces on the creation of them. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 07:35, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
- Size isn't the sole reason to split. Right now we don't have sources to justify even a single sentence for each core character. That sort of plot summary would fit more than adequately in a section within the main series article. czar 08:02, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
- Delete per reasoning provided in nomination. I do not think there is enough (appropriate) sources to salvage this article. ZettaComposer ( talk) 13:15, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- Delete fails WP:GNG, and has only two reliable independent sources, which clearly isn't enough to prove it's notable or establish a better, updated article. — Omni Flames ( talk contribs) 06:53, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.