The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
That's completely irrelevant. Whether or not the games were released was not a factor in that discussion. The point was, it was a valid list premise, but couldn't be published as its current form because of a complete lack of sourcing. I dont understand how you missed the point so badly...
Sergecross73msg me13:09, 1 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I already added some references simply by looking at the articles linked to and copying them over. As I clearly stated, the 76 games articles linked to have references confirming they exist. The many other lists like this don't have references for every single item. If you wish to delete any entry without a reference and/or their own article, then you still have 76 things listed, so its a valid list.
DreamFocus14:38, 1 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I'd say roughly 75% of the entries don't have an article to check for sources though, which still leaves you with an article that's either largely unsourced (or wildly incomplete if you remove all unsourced entries.) Still feels like a prime candidate for the draft space...
Sergecross73msg me15:13, 1 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Draftify as stated above, whilst somewhat lazy of me, the response in the Atari 2600 discussion is identically relevant here: The list is a valid one with a clear category and not inherently without merit. But it's just unverifiable based on the lack of sourcing, the ambiguous scope, and non-notability of the items themselves. Put it this way - if it were a list, the immediate question would be "How do you know these are eligible?" In this case, there is one source, but that isn't going to be enough to
WP:VERIFY the list. More work is needed. (
talk)
05:26, 31 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes, but you have to
WP:VERIFY that the list is correct. It may not be as arbitrary as the other example, but relying on a single source for this list is putting a very strong faith in that source being a correct and complete list. So really the article is no more reliable than just going to the external source. The best course is to either find more sources, or draftify it until someone does so.
VRXCES (
talk)
11:06, 31 March 2024 (UTC)reply
(You're supposed to identify yourself as the article creator.) Even ignoring Wikipedia policies that make this not okay, the list, as is, is completely unnecessary. You just stole another websites list and put it in Wikipedia. People should be going to see their website to see their list. It's entirely redundant. A list of these games is possible...but absolutely not like this.
Sergecross73msg me13:36, 31 March 2024 (UTC)reply
I also want this article kept but I agree with
VRXCES, and would also add that the article needs independent references as well before it can be returned to mainspace. Therefore I feel that draftifying the article is the right course of action at this point.
One option might be for the list to be a combination of notable games and games which can be verified with an independent reference.
Rillington (
talk)
01:51, 1 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Nominator comment: @
NPI WOL: Could you say where you source this list from? I think policy is to
Wikipedia:Revision deletion copyright violations, but we may keep the entries that can be verified by the added sources. We could redirect a redirect to the existing category as long as the list is in draft if that helps with concerns?
IgelRM (
talk)
07:16, 3 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I mentioned that above already. But I also went and found that MobyGames has all these games listed, with covers and screenshots proving they exist, and links to reviews done in old magazines about them that also prove they exist. The old magazines linked to are backed up on archive.org. Since no discussion on MobyGames being considered a reliable source has taken place in over a decade, I started a discussion for that at
Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Video_games/Sources#MobyGames_owned_by_Atari_now.
DreamFocus15:09, 1 April 2024 (UTC)reply
For those of you not clicking on that link, please note that, as of my writing this, the suggestion of using MobyGames as a source was unanimously rejected by the Wikiproject members.
Sergecross73msg me13:32, 2 April 2024 (UTC)reply
An editor sourcing 6 out of 900+ entries was enough for you to decide incubating in the draft space was not necessary and is now ready to be published?
Sergecross73msg me13:29, 2 April 2024 (UTC)reply
The 75 articles linked to have references that can be copied over, and there are old magazines archived that review other things. No one is going to work on the article if its in draft space. AFD determine if an article should exist, not judging the current state it is in.
DreamFocus15:25, 2 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Articles that are technically plausible, but wildly underdeveloped/undersourced, are the very reason why we have the draft space. There is no rush here. As I noted above, the article creator largely just copy/pasted this list from another website. The info will still be available on the internet if it's sent to draft.
Sergecross73msg me15:52, 2 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes because it is clear to me that the references now found, and added, means that the contents of this list can be independently verified. This means that the article is now suitable for inclusion on Wikipedia, and now does not need to be relegated to draftspace.
Rillington (
talk)
00:55, 3 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Nominator comment: I don't think there was much doubt that the games exist. A Wikipedia article relying on their database not be in interest of the museum? It appears to only list a game's cover, format, publisher, author and release year.
IgelRM (
talk)
07:40, 3 April 2024 (UTC)reply
76 of the games currently have links to their own articles. So that's enough for the list article to exist. As for the other games listed, they are there to make the list complete. If there is no doubt they exist, no reason to remove any of them from the list.
DreamFocus07:58, 3 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep. This is a perfectly valid navigational list. The argument for deletion/draftification is that many of the entries are unsourced, but "was this a Commodore 16 game or not" is extremely easy to verify. Items that fail verification can simply be removed. There's no reason to delete or even to draftify this. --
asilvering (
talk)
03:51, 6 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep - This list is complete, it has historical encyclopaedic value to anyone with an interest in retro videogames. Not only that, but games for a specific console are a widely discussed topic as a group. My question then to inclusion criteria is whether sources do likely exist. I did a spot check on some random ones on this list, and I'm satisfied that okayish sources do generally exist. For example, picking a random one from the list "Astro Plumber" I found
https://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/47327/Astro%20Plumber/ and nothing else after some real hard looking. I think this article is valid, but should adopt a
WP:CSC of requiring citation. I'm happy to move the current page content onto the talk page after this AfD closes. BrigadierG (
talk)
00:39, 7 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Nominator comment: @
Liz: Recent comments don't deal with the nomination concern of database copyright, we all know it meets
WP:NLIST. Could you recommend a different venue that deals with this so I may withdraw this AFD? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
IgelRM (
talk •
contribs)
Title, Genre, Release date, and Language are not a copyright issue. That information is on the game box. Same with Compilation, this just a list of products and what they contained. Where did the person who made the original database get the information from? Did they find a copy of every single game and copy the information from the boxes they came in?
DreamFocus11:30, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
All you have to do is look at it. Only a single "source" was present at the time he created and published the article. It contains the same columns in the same order, and it was largely created on one massive edit. It doesn't take a genius to see he clearly plagiarized/ripped off that database website.
Sergecross73msg me13:47, 13 April 2024 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.