The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep.  Sandstein  11:59, 5 June 2017 (UTC) reply

Le Pen family (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)

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Content-free unsourced stub. All relevant information is already available at dab page Le Pen. No source is provided discussing the family independently from political activities of the three members mentioned. — JFG ^talk 14:34, 12 May 2017 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Jupitus Smart 15:00, 12 May 2017 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of France-related deletion discussions. Jupitus Smart 15:00, 12 May 2017 (UTC) reply

• Redirect to Le Pen, unfortunately it's impossible to choose between Jean-Marie and Marine as a redirect target at this time. Power~enwiki ( talk) 19:31, 12 May 2017 (UTC) reply

Agree. — JFG ^talk 06:15, 13 May 2017 (UTC) reply

• Comment WP:deletion is not cleanup. Do you doubt that the Le Pens form a political family, and that that political family is a notable family? Clearly the article needs cleanup, and clearly the topic itself is notable. It just needs to be completely rewritten. A start would be WP:SUMMARYSTYLE sections for the three politicians. Then we can add more about the political grouping. -- 65.94.169.56 ( talk) 05:07, 13 May 2017 (UTC) reply

No, that would be WP:SYNTHESIS. A good start would be to find WP:RS discussing them as a family. — JFG ^talk 06:15, 13 May 2017 (UTC) reply

The family clearly exists, any matter pertaining to the family as a whole would need new RSes, summarizing the family members (and that would be supported by RSes since they already state how these three are related) would not involve any synthesis, existing sources from the personal biography articles are enough to support summarizing that they are related to each other, and that each is politically active, and that each is a member of the National Front. That would be cleanup. Additional material treating the family as a whole would need to be added, with new sources. So, cleanup is not deletion. Cleaning it up does not involve synthesis, it would create a stub or start class article instead, sorely needing family-only material. -- 65.94.169.56 ( talk) 03:56, 15 May 2017 (UTC) reply

No I putted some sources about the family. Torygreen84 ( talk) 10:38, 15 May 2017 (UTC) reply

• Comment We do have articles about political families - for instance, Kennedy family and Bush family - and those are well written, clearly notable, and in line with guidelines. So it absolutely can be done without violating WP:SYNTHESIS. The question is whether the Le Pen family rises to the same level as those two examples. If so, it should be kept and rewritten (remember, AFD is not cleanup, so the current state of the article is irrelevant). If not, I would support a redirect to Le Pen over deletion. I don't know enough about French politics to know whether they qualify. Smartyllama ( talk) 20:24, 18 May 2017 (UTC) reply

Yes, redirect is the best solution at this stage. — JFG ^talk 20:29, 18 May 2017 (UTC) reply

• Keep - Needs to be re-written, but with four or five family members, including Marie and her father, seems comparable to other political family pages (like the Bushes and the Kennedys) for example Kennedy family and Bush family Deathlibrarian ( talk) 11:45, 20 May 2017 (UTC) reply

Again, this would be feasible is we had sources discussing them as a family. There are plenty such sources for the Kennedys, the Bushes or the Clintons, I don't see one for the Le Pens, so anything we write here would be WP:OR or WP:SYN. — JFG ^talk 20:04, 20 May 2017 (UTC) reply

• Keep seems a justifiable article given the French establishment's fondness for dynastic continuities of power / influence / employment / celebrity status / etc. Tiptoethrutheminefield ( talk) 14:30, 20 May 2017 (UTC) reply
• Keep - even if only as a disambig page (which is what the French Wikipedia has it as) or redirect - it's at least useful for navigation. This would also meet notability threshold for an article, given the family dynamics of this prominent family have been well-reported on (father clashing with daughter, relationships with the niece, etc.). Neutrality ^talk 21:10, 20 May 2017 (UTC) reply

I agree that a disambig page is fine, and we already have one: Le Pen, with the three generations represented. This is why I thought this "family" page is useless (unless of course some sourced material is added). I don't care personally whether we have an article on this family, but if we do it should be sourced not synthesized. — JFG ^talk 21:42, 20 May 2017 (UTC) reply

I would not object to a redirect given that the family article is pretty bad. But I certainly want to leave the door open for a future better version of this article, given that there are sources that directly talk about the family that could sustain an article. E.g.,

• Cécile Alduy, The Devil's Daughter, The Atlantic (October 2013).
• The Economist explains: The Le Pen family feud, The Economist (April 13, 2015).
• Dov Alfon, Le Pen Family Feud Deteriorates Into Night of Long Knives After Crushing Loss in French Election. Ha'aretz (May 9, 2017).
• Paul Ames, France's far-right leading family is a mess of amazing gossip right now, GlobalPost (published by Public Radio International)
• Moira Weigel, Marine Le Pen's Memoir: a Dutiful Daughter's Sanitizing of Far-Right Politics: In 'À Contre Flots,' published in 2006, Le Pen reduces politics to family loyalty, New Yorker (May 6, 2017).

I'm sure much more in the French language, of course. Neutrality ^talk 04:14, 21 May 2017 (UTC) reply

Right, thanks for scouting those. Perhaps some day someone will actually write the beginning of a real article based on such sources. The current stub deserves only a redirect to the dab page. I am actually quite surprised that the French Wikipedia hasn't built anything but a list of the family members either. — JFG ^talk 08:02, 21 May 2017 (UTC) reply

• Redirect per nom. The fact that three or four notable people are related to each other is not, in and of itself, the definition of a notable political family — the ability to get the group over WP:GNG as a group is what matters. For example, there are many more notable Kennedys and many more notable Bushes than there are notable LePens — and in both cases, significant numbers of those notable family members don't even have the main family surname (see, frex, all the Smiths and Lawfords and Beales and Shrivers and Schwarzeneggers and Schlossbergs in the Kennedy family tree) and thus would never be locatable from the base Kennedy surname page in the first place. But all we've got here is four notables, of whom three are already on the surname page LePen as it is and the fourth is Marine's husband; there are only two people on that dab page outside of this group; and we have to depend on non-notable failers of WP:NPOL to pad this list out with anybody else — so that's just not enough noteworthy content to justify a standalone list of the politicians as a separate topic from the surname page. Bearcat ( talk) 23:32, 20 May 2017 (UTC) reply

• Keep per Neutrality's research and reasoning above. The article seems to me a good candidate for expansion. -- Lockley ( talk) 00:00, 29 May 2017 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.