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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Pax:Vobiscum ( talk) 12:16, 24 February 2020 (UTC) reply

K. G. Marar

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K. G. Marar (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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The article has no source. The person was not a legislator or parliamentarian. It fails WP:GNG, WP:NPOL and other criteria. S. M. Nazmus Shakib ( talk) 19:44, 7 February 2020 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. S. M. Nazmus Shakib ( talk) 19:44, 7 February 2020 (UTC) reply
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. S. M. Nazmus Shakib ( talk) 19:44, 7 February 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Delete a politician who fails WP:NPOL as he was never elected to state or national legislature. -- DBig Xrayᗙ 20:18, 7 February 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Fails WP:NPOL. Couldn't find any secondary source on him other than him contesting elections (and losing) in 1977 once. Tayi Arajakate ( talk) 03:34, 8 February 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. Fails WP:POLITICIAN as he was never elected to state/national legislature. Lefcentreright Talk (plz ping) 10:32, 8 February 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Keep, to be clear, there is no obligation to delete articles on politicians who failed to get elected to legislatures, there is still scope for other criteria for notability. The article needs a clean-up and improvements, but notability can be established. From a quick google books search, keeping in mind that the article subject died before google came into being, we find a number of notability indicators; " K G Marar has become persona noa grata with the CP-M in Cannanore oecause of his BSS past. It may be of interest to recall that the very same Janata leader K G Marar was the CP-M's hot favourite in the March 1977" ( [1]), "[...] the BJP leader was widely regarded as mediocre and intellectually shallow. A rare exception was K. G. Marar, state party president from 1984-8 and again from 1992 until his death in 1995. A former Malayalam schoolteacher and RSS pracharak from Malabar, he was an able orator known for his cutting repartee.59 Following his demise, leadership was mainly provided by two lacklustre former state presidents in their sixties," ( [2], book also mentions his role as BJS state secretary), "Last week, a biography of the late state bjp president K.G. Marar, released in the state capital [...]" ( [3]), some mentions in [4], "In the meanwhile, K G Marar, state president of the BJP in a press statement alleged that the fishermen's agitation in [...] ( [5]), " leaders of Jan Sangh like K.G. Marar, Adiyodi and A.C. Nair and finally Ummer Bafaqi Thangal, Cheriya Mammukkeyi, P.M. Aboobacker, V.P. Mohammed Haji and Ibrahim Haji of All India Muslim League also reached the Central jail." ( [6]), "The party's firebrand national council member, K.G. Marar, was in the assembly fray at Manjeswaram, bordering Karnataka." ( [7]), "Prominent Bharatiya Janata partymen who lost were Mr Vijay Kumar Malhotra (South Delhi), Dr Murali Manohar Joshi (Almora), Mr K.G Marar (Kasargod) and Mr K.S.Hegde (Udipi)" ( [8]), "The mortal remains of Swadesha- bhimani Ramakrishna Pilla, A.K.Gopalan, K.P.Gopalan, Pamban Madhavan and K.G.Marar are laid to rest near this resort." ( [9]) There is also a 'K.G. Marar Smaraka Samithi and Trust' ('K.G. Marar Memorial Association and Trust', per [10]). Memorial organized by party, reported in national media: [11], similar post from 2019) -- Soman ( talk) 00:11, 9 February 2020 (UTC) reply
    The Notability (people)#Politicians is a higher bar for a reason. The political candidates almost always get some amount of coverage for being associated with a notable party. I have reviewed all the sources and claims above and I stand by my assessment that the subject still does not pass out notability criteria for politicians. Many of the links only contain one word mention of the subject. having a trust does not make one notable. DBig Xrayᗙ 05:37, 13 February 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Weak keep Seems to meet GNG per the dsources above. Article does need some work though. ~ EDDY ( talk/ contribs)~ 02:52, 11 February 2020 (UTC) reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Natg 19 ( talk) 01:44, 14 February 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Please see the Analysis of the refs and the response inline to the refs and the quotes added above by Soman.
  1. Politicians are known to become friends and enemies of parties they join or leave. Nothing special here.
  2. states that he was state BJP president. But that is not a notable post. National president of BJP may deserve an article, not all state presidents.
  3. is the news about some allegations from this politician.
  4. Is the the mention of name among a list of of others.
  5. news about him contesting an election.
  6. news that he lost the election.
  7. mention of his name among a list of others whose funeral was held in this particular "resort".
  8. Mention that a trust exists in his name.
  9. [10.] and [11.] are about a Memorial that was organized by his party members and it was reported.
  • What is clear from the sources above, is that BJP treats KG Marar differently than their run-of-mill politicians. BJP is not a major party in Kerala, but from the coverage he had a high profile. He is describes him as someone that stood out from the crowd of 'lacklustre' BJP leaders, he is mentioned as 'prominent'. He is described as 'party's firebrand national council member'. And evidently, he's notable enough to warrant annual memorials by his party. -- Soman ( talk) 15:09, 14 February 2020 (UTC) reply
    We don't care how BJP treats its leaders. he was Kerala BJP president, so it is expected that Kerala BJP will worship him. That does not mean he passes for an article. We are concerned about what real and significant work the person has done. Kerala BJP hardly existed then, so it is expected that its president was non notable. It is inline with the sources that we are seeing here. DBig Xrayᗙ 17:18, 14 February 2020 (UTC) reply
After, @ Soman:'s comment here, I don't think the person did not pass WP:GNG. And I have to say, we do not keep article for a person becoming famous or prominent. We consider our WP:GNG and other criteria. So, we keep notorious people like Osama, Hitler and so on. We don't keep article for those people who are doing social work relentlessly and considered as famous and prominent in their local area (I mean village, town, city etc) but, don't have coverage to pass WP:GNG, WP:ANYBIO or other criteria. And memorial and trust etc are not considered as notability sign. Even, naming an asteroid, process etc after a person is not enough to pass a person WP:ACADEMIC. S. M. Nazmus Shakib ( talk) 15:50, 14 February 2020 (UTC) reply
The term 'prominent' was used as a comment on national election in an academic source, not in the sense of being 'prominent' at local level. -- Soman ( talk) 17:38, 14 February 2020 (UTC) reply
As it is said here, "Prominent Bharatiya Janata partymen who lost were Mr Vijay Kumar Malhotra (South Delhi), Dr Murali Manohar Joshi (Almora), Mr K.G Marar (Kasargod) and Mr K.S.Hegde (Udipi)", As he is his party's state president, he can be considered as prominient among his party leaders, which is not enough for having a Wikipedia article as it is covering result during election time. Secondly, this small prominient mention is not enough for passing WP:GNG or WP:NPOL. S. M. Nazmus Shakib ( talk) 17:58, 14 February 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Comment Via google translate it seems to me that these sources enough for passing WP:GNG.
  1. Source no. 1 (janambhumi daily) may become a good point. But it was written by his partyman. And it is BJP's Malayalam mouthpiece. So this source fails to make any effect.
  2. Source no. 2 about Kerala wing of his party and his performance. Even paying homage by his partyman is not enough for notability.
  3. Source No. 3 Janam TV can be a good point. But, I think this source is not enough for WP:GNG as it is BJP's Kerala Channel. So this source also fails to make any effect.
  4. Deshavimani's mere mention prominent Marar wrote a book is not enough.
  5. Deshavimani's second source is mainly about Kerala BJP, 1991 Niyamasabha (Legislative Assembly) Election Tactics etc. This is not enough.
  6. Last source is typical election time coverage during Lok Sabha election. Even he did not have enough coverage there. S. M. Nazmus Shakib ( talk) 19:12, 14 February 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Comment, New Indian Express, [16], "Since 1991 when BJP stalwart KG Marar contested in the constituency and lost by 1,071 votes", [17] "The northern-most constituency in Kerala had always given hope to the saffron party, which consistently fielded its top-rung leaders such as K G Marar", another sources: [18] "the most popular BJP leader KG Marar by a margin of 1,072 votes." -- Soman ( talk) 03:29, 15 February 2020 (UTC) reply
    He might be popular among the BJP workers but clearly he was not popular to general public,or else he would not have lost the elections throughout his career. Please note that he fails WP:NPOL for the same reason. DBig Xrayᗙ 04:54, 15 February 2020 (UTC) reply
  • These three souces are not enough for passing WP:GNG
  1. First one is a typical coverage during bypoll (byelection) fever in Manjeswaram. It was mentioned there about the performance of BJP in that seat. There is a small mention Since 1991 when BJP stalwart KG Marar contested in the constituency and lost by 1,071 votes, Manjeshwar continues to remain a mirage for the party, imprisoned in the No. 2 slot. is not enough for our WP:GNG.
  2. Source no. 2 The northern-most constituency in Kerala had always given hope to the saffron party, which consistently fielded its top-rung leaders such as K G Marar, C K Padmanabhan and K Surendran to get a foothold in the legislative assembly. In 1991, Marar lost by just 1,072 votes. just a day after P. B. Abdul Razak's death who was incumbent legislator of Manjeswaram. The article talked about the electoral history of the constituency and the performance of BJP in that constituency.
  3. The last source was Death news of Cherkalam Abdullah, former legislator of Manjeswaram. It was mentioned there "Cherkalam defeated the most popular BJP leader KG Marar by a margin of 1,072 votes." You mentioned earlier that BJP is not considered as a major party in Kerala. And even prominent, famous etc are not enough for passing a politician WP:GNG. A politician is famous, prominient, stalwart etc among his supporters. A local politician can become famous in his area as a tragic hero by lossing a small margin.
  4. After reviewing Malayalam (Marar's native language) wiki article, I think the sources present there are insufficient for passing WP:GNG. Two sources present there are from Janambhumi daily which is BJP's Malayalam mouthpiece. One is BJP Kerala website. Source no. 4 present there is electotial history. The last one is http://www.niyamasabha.org (I don't understand why it was given there.) S. M. Nazmus Shakib ( talk) 06:12, 15 February 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Keep per Soman. The fact that something called "KG Marar Smrithi Dinam" (KG Marar Memorial Day) is observed every year [19] gives me the impression that he was a notable figure (within his party or otherwise is beside the point) during his time, and almost certainly received significant coverage in print and Malayalam sources from the pre-internet era. According to NPOL, Just being an elected local official, or an unelected candidate for political office, does not guarantee notability, although such people can still be notable if they meet the general notability guideline. With one source calling him "the once-towering figure of the Jan Sangh", I am somewhat convinced about the existence of sources required to pass GNG. The article needs some work though, but that would be a separate discussion. Dee 03 08:41, 15 February 2020 (UTC) reply
    • That is "not" besides the point, we are looking for overall notable, not just notability among a closed group such as a fan club or members of the a minor state unit of a political party.
    • "KG Marar Memorial Day" is celebrated only by members of the state level branch of the party as a "sponsored" event and not by the general public,
    • Your quote seems to be missing an important word. "the once-towering figure of the Jan Sangh in Kannur" (i.e. figure of a political party in a city and not entire country)
    • Had he been a towering figure, he would have won at least once throughout his life, but no, he never won.
    • repeated insistence of party related source only confirms the lack of notability DBig Xrayᗙ 08:57, 15 February 2020 (UTC) reply
  • What is this "overall notability"? Where is the policy regarding this?
  • Yes and that party is the ruling party in the world's largest democracy and not some local party from a remote island.
  • Once again, where is the policy that states a person is regarded notable only if his notability extends beyond the place he is from?
  • Read the quote I posted from NPOL. He can be notable if he meets GNG.
  • Last I checked, The New Indian Express and Newslaundry are independent from any political party. Dee 03 09:20, 15 February 2020 (UTC) reply
    • WP:NPOL as well as WP:GNG
    • That party neither won from Kannur nor in Kerala state whose leader the subject is. Anyway this is not a contemporary topic, so this claim is offtopic.
    • yes, but where are the sources for GNG ? Without evidence in the form of sources, I am not sure how you can claim notability here.
    • Indeed they are independent but the Newslaundry is covering the Political strategy of BJP as the main topic and only gives a 1 line mention to Marar, (that is not WP:SIGCOV)
    • TNIE article is covering a "sponsored" party event (his memorial) and only contains the statements of the party office bearers This is a sort of obituary and cannot be used to claim notability. DBig Xrayᗙ 09:30, 15 February 2020 (UTC) reply
  • I never used those two sources for establishing notability. I only suggested that based on how he is known more than two decades after his death, there is a high likelihood of existence of sources in print and local language newspapers from the pre-internet era to satisfy GNG. Dee 03 09:38, 15 February 2020 (UTC) reply
    • As it was mentioned by @ Dee03: I have to say here again naming an asteroid, process etc after a person is not enough to pass a person WP:ACADEMIC and here I think a memorial day observation by his partymen is not sufficient for passing him our notability guideline.
    • After google search in English and Malayalam (translating those via google translation) it does not seem to me that he will pass WP:GNG. The last chance is WP:ANYBIO. Via google it seems he will not pass WP:ANYBIO too. S. M. Nazmus Shakib ( talk) 10:59, 15 February 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Hopefully you are aware that there could be sources outside of Google too, especially for a pre-internet personality. And we are not talking about ACADEMIC here, are we? Ping me only if you have a coherent argument. Dee 03 14:22, 15 February 2020 (UTC) reply
  • A quick Google Books search yielded this book by Thomas Blom Hansen and Christophe Jaffrelot which has some detail in its snippet view: A rare exception was K. G. Marar, state party president from 1984-8 and again from 1992 until his death in 1995. A former Malayalam schoolteacher and RSS pracharak from Malabar, he was an able orator known for his cutting repartee. A simple WP:BEFORE from your end is all it takes to save a lot of community time. Dee 03 14:50, 15 February 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Comment I have already shared my views above (to delete). I went through all the sources and comments above and my opinion is unchanged. I note that users voting a keep are putting a lot of emphasis on passing mentions or the party dependent sources (press releases, party events etc). This is not how WP:GNG is judged, where the requirement is for " significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject," which is lacking. DBig Xrayᗙ 09:07, 22 February 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Comment, a coverage by a mainstream newspaper on a party event is not a party dependent source. I only find Janambhumi as a dependent source in this conversation. -- Soman ( talk) 09:56, 22 February 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Yes? I just said that Janambhumi is a dependent source, i.e. linked to the article subject. None of the other sources mentioned in this conversation appears to qualify as dependent. -- Soman ( talk) 10:24, 22 February 2020 (UTC) reply
  • I mistakenly read dependent as dependable in your line above, apologies. Any coverage that is based on the party press release or statements by the party office bearers is dependent coverage. -- DBig Xrayᗙ 10:50, 22 February 2020 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/K._G._Marar&oldid=1180433594"

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