- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Keep but discuss a move. On the one hand, the WP:GNG-based keep claims are well taken and most people don't appear to be convinced that WP:NOTMEMORIAL would justify deletion here (I am also a little unsure what "there's already a perfectly good WP:NOT which applies here" refers to). And as pointed out the "one event" policies and guidelines allow for a repurposing of a noncompliant article in lieu of deletion. On the other hand, the WP:BLP1E (i.e the individual is not notable) arguments are also well taken and a number of people have suggested that a move would be appropriate although I note there is no unanimity on the issue. There was also some discussion of a merge and of a second AFD if no WP:LASTING coverage emerged; these didn't get much discussion but can perhaps be considered outside/after this AFD. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk) 10:06, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
Julie Berman (transgender activist)
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WP:BIO1E of a person whose only stated or sourced indication of notability is a two-day blip of media coverage upon her death. As always, people are not automatically notable just because their death made it into the news -- if that were how it worked, we would have to keep an article about every single person who ever died in a car accident or a house fire or a workplace safety incident. But there's no other discernible claim of preexisting notability in life here: she's stated as an "activist", but the only evidence of activism being presented is that she volunteered for the local community centre, which is not "inherently" notable work in and of itself. And I checked both Google and ProQuest to find older coverage that might bolster her notability, but was completely unable to find a single piece of reliable source coverage about her, in any context whatsoever, prior to the death blip. Wikipedia is not a free platform for memorializing everybody who ever died, but there's just not enough substance, or enough sourcing for anything apart from her death itself, to deem her notable enough for permanent coverage in an international encyclopedia — the notability test for activists is not automatically passed just because the article and/or its sources use the word "activist", but requires properly sourceable evidence of significant and noteworthy and externally-reported-upon accomplishments as an activist. Bearcat ( talk) 22:33, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Bearcat ( talk) 22:33, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sexuality and gender-related deletion discussions. Bearcat ( talk) 22:33, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ontario-related deletion discussions. Bearcat ( talk) 22:33, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. TJMSmith ( talk) 23:16, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Lightburst ( talk) 00:32, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
- Keep and potentially rename to "Murder of Julie Berman" per
WP:BLP1E and
User:Clovermoss below;
Comment - I haven't formed an opinion yet, butI object to the premise that someone must have demonstrated notability prior to their death for the facts of their death to be valid or relevant. This isn't someone who died randomly in a car accident or house fire; this is someone who was murdered, and for whom there is widespread (even international) concern that her murder is related to her prior advocacy work. Said advocacy may only have gotten news coverage because she died, but it seems clear why the Toronto LGBT+ community (and the LGBT+ community writ large) is treating her death as notable; here's some specific information about her:From Globalnews.ca (also picked up in From CBC.ca):I agree she's not notable for advocacy alone--sadly 30 years of noble and needed volunteer work, including Transgender Day of Remembrance organizing, does not make one notable--I believe it's important to focus on the actual reason she may or may not ultimately be notable, which is that she was an outspoken transgender rights advocate who was murdered, with much preliminary public discussion already over how much the two things are related. Shelbystripes ( talk) 06:32, 26 January 2020 (UTC)She had helped out with various events at The 519, an LGBTQ charity in Toronto, over the last 30 years, they said. "Berman worked on the charity’s Trans Access project, an education program that focused on needs in the trans community.“Julie has suffered violence in the past and it’s important that we remember her advocacy in openly willing to talk about what happens inside the trans community, and her ability to advocate for rights of all members, that made the community better,” said Olivia Nuamah, the executive director of Pride Toronto."
Two years ago, Berman served on the center's organizing committee for the Transgender Day of Remembrance, an international event that memorializes transgender people killed in transphobic attacks over the past year.At the 2017 vigil, Berman spoke out on anti-transgender violence, and mourned people she knew who had been killed, according to Susan Gapka, an organizer and educator with The 519.
- Updated above with !vote. I wouldn't be opposed to a 2nd AfD in a year or two if there's no WP:LASTING impact, but it's too early to make that call, and her death has gotten the sort of outsized international attention that (IMO) supports notability. Shelbystripes ( talk) 18:49, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
- Keep per Shelbystripes. If she is not notable, her death is. Since WP:BLP1E states that "the general rule is to cover the event, not the person", I would support the article title being changed to "Murder of Julie Berman" with the current title becoming a redirect. That said, I'm willing to change my !vote if someone can demonstrate her activism as notable in itself. Also, while there was increased coverage during those two days, more recent coverage exists. Some examples include: [1] [2] [3] [4]. Clovermoss (talk) 21:54, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
- Keep Passes general notability guidelines. Missvain ( talk) 21:32, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
- Delete unfortunately, I have to agree with Bearcat's one event argument, and also bring up WP:NOTMEMORIAL, which as a part of WP:NOT trumps WP:GNG. I cannot find any coverage of her that isn't about her incredibly tragic murder, and even though there's more recent coverage it's all a part of the same event. I do have two hopes: 1) someone will find sources that shows she was notable before her death and we can keep this; 2) if not, that we can add her to a list, or somewhere else in the encyclopaedia, but unfortunately this should not be a standalone article at this time. But unfortunately the WP:NOT is spot on, and I agree with that. SportingFlyer T· C 00:55, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
- As a comment, I don't think
WP:NOTMEMORIAL is relevant here. No one commenting (that I'm aware of) knew the victim personally or is making arguments based on personal connections or feelings; the discussion is whether a victim of an internationally publicized murder is notable as such. There's no requirement that people achieve notability before their death, and there are many examples of an otherwise non-notable person's death making them notable enough for inclusion (
Matthew Shepard,
Trayvon Martin,
Death of Brian Wells,
Emmett Till,
Murder of James Craig Anderson,
Jaime Zapata, etc.). I'm not saying Julie Berman is definitely notable like those, but I am saying that's the discussion, notability resulting from her death.
WP:NOTMEMORIAL only requires the article subject must meet notability requirements. It doesn't say they had to be notable while they were alive.
Shelbystripes (
talk)
19:36, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
- Well, discussing WP:NOTMEMORIAL's a bit of a red herring as there's already a perfectly good WP:NOT which applies here, but this is close to an obituary as written. I did a news search and all of the coverage is from around the time she passed :( but the event doesn't seem to have any lasting significance yet. All of the blue links you posted received by far and away significant coverage that I just don't see here yet. SportingFlyer T· C 11:24, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
- As a comment, I don't think
WP:NOTMEMORIAL is relevant here. No one commenting (that I'm aware of) knew the victim personally or is making arguments based on personal connections or feelings; the discussion is whether a victim of an internationally publicized murder is notable as such. There's no requirement that people achieve notability before their death, and there are many examples of an otherwise non-notable person's death making them notable enough for inclusion (
Matthew Shepard,
Trayvon Martin,
Death of Brian Wells,
Emmett Till,
Murder of James Craig Anderson,
Jaime Zapata, etc.). I'm not saying Julie Berman is definitely notable like those, but I am saying that's the discussion, notability resulting from her death.
WP:NOTMEMORIAL only requires the article subject must meet notability requirements. It doesn't say they had to be notable while they were alive.
Shelbystripes (
talk)
19:36, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
- Keep per WP:SIGCOV. A move would be at the discretion of the closing sysop. Bearian ( talk) 20:08, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- Keep but moving page to event is a good compromise - international coverage in UK [5] indicates notability. If deleted, content should move to List_of_unlawfully_killed_transgender_people ( Lajmmoore ( talk) 10:47, 1 February 2020 (UTC))
- I'd support a merge to that page, considering all of the news articles on her were from late December. The fact it went international doesn't mean the event suddenly passes WP:NOTNEWS. I'm still hopeful we can find more information on her. SportingFlyer T· C 11:29, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- Keep the event, less notable as just a bio of the person. Kj cheetham ( talk) 18:12, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- Keep per WP:SIGCOV. Notable for her work and her murder. We can begin a move discussion on the talk page. Wm335td ( talk) 20:57, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.